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Why So Much Criticism Against Vanguard?
jonaku
Member Posts: 281
Vanguard has attracted hordes of criticism, attacks and "hate" and the game is not even out of beta. This is quite unprecedented for a game in development to attract so much negative publicity so organically. Go take a gander at the message boards here on MMORPG.com that deal with other games in development like Gods&Heroes, Age of Conan, Huxley, Hero's Journey, Star Trek Online, Tabula Rasa, Warhammer Online... you won't see even one tenth of the hate that you see here in the Vanguard forum.
(1) Why is Vanguard hated by so many people and what lessons can be learned from this experience?
(2) To what degree is this the fault of the devs, its PR department or just a unique anomaly in the MMO gaming industry?
Comments
IT'S YOU!!! YOU SPAM THESE FORUMS WITH ATTACKS!!!
I've NEVER seen such a small amount of poeple, especially you, make such a big stink about a game 6 months from release...
WE GET IT.... YOU DON'T LIKE IT.... SO WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE???
Criticize & discuss all you want, but please STOP constantly spamming us with VSoH hate!!! PLEASE!!!!
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I chalk it up to ignorance....
Only an ignorant person would criticize the end product before it even exists.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Jonaku makes me chuckle
But it's not just him. You must admit, there *is* a lot of hate against this game. To answer Jonaku's question, I think it's because of:
(a) The SOE co-publishing relationship
(b) Problems that had in beta 2 that turned a lot of people off (which is why they only had 100 people playing), and
(c) The hard core game mechanics (XP loss, no GPS in maps, corpse runs, long travel times, long XP curves, little solo content)
I think that would about cover it, correct?
Jonaku makes me chuckle
But it's not just him. You must admit, there *is* a lot of hate against this game.
There is a fair amount, but these folks are spamming hate over & over... there are for more folks that are not haters...
That said, 5 of the top 7 posts are hate posts by him... I think I'm pretty dead on....
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
It's mostly from people that "hate" EQ, and the fact that SOE's name is now somewhat involved. A lot of the people who at once loved EQ got burnt after certain expansions in which we all know started to make the game go downhill. Like someone already said before, yes it's mostly ignorance, and people spewing hate because they hate what happened in EQ1 and dealing with SOE.
It won't matter though, publicity whether good or bad will prove to be a good thing in the end. They will sell lots of copies, and whether they will be a MMO that'll last awhile we will have to see how the game develops once it hits retail. Nobody here right now knows jack about how the game is going to be, and whether it'll be successful or not. So all the hate talks and "criticism" are really people who are simply anti-Everquest.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
So you have one group that is railing against unpopular game design and another group that is complaining about a product that is surprisingly bad (so far - there is still a long beta before release).
2. Really this is a good thing for Vanguard. They have people talking and that is super important. Most games that are getting such negative reports wouldn't have been able to create this much buzz. There may be some truth to the idea that there is no such thing as bad publicity. Look at the G&H forums, they won more awards at E3 than any other MMORPG, but yet their board is completely dead compared to the vanguard forums because people don't have anything controversial to say about a game that looks like it will be fun. Simply going in and saying, "This is awesome." isn't realy a conversation starter.
That may sound harsh or intolerant, but well that is the way it is. What you are seeing now is what many people actually thought of EQ back in the day.
Jonaku makes me chuckle
But it's not just him. You must admit, there *is* a lot of hate against this game. To answer Jonaku's question, I think it's because of:
(a) The SOE co-publishing relationship
(b) Problems that had in beta 2 that turned a lot of people off (which is why they only had 100 people playing), and
(c) The hard core game mechanics (XP loss, no GPS in maps, corpse runs, long travel times, long XP curves, little solo content)
I think that would about cover it, correct?
In fairness, beta 2 didnt invite a mass quantity of people. I dont know the exact #, but it wasnt many. They had 100 on at any given time. You cant expect everyone to be on every single minute of the day
Also, it's true the mechanics are touted as being a bit more hardcore, but i would reserve judgement on this till we get to play the game. 1) Things change in beta based on player feedback and there's been A LOT of player feedback and 2) there are a lot of other interesting systems in game that will alleviate many of the perceived hardcore-ness of some of the things you listed.
1. No casual player wants to see an a nice game for everyone succeed b/c it would pave the way to return to the good old days when MMORPGs were actually fun, and don't feel like single player games with chat rooms.
2. the PR department has done pretty good compared to alot of others out there. By not releasing alot of info they have made alot of people eager. None of the negative responses have been thrown out there b/c of what the Dev's have done... Most of it is b/c of what the Devs did way back in the day with EQ. Many people are scared of VG being taken over by SoE and getting lied to by the dev team. Brad has responded to this exact thing and by saying that they have learned from their mistakes. I don't think they will do the same thing again. Most of the other negatives really don't work to well: Animations... the Devs repeatidly say they will fix it later (beta 4) so that is nothing to worry about. Old school/hardcore style. Just b/c it has some similarities doesn't mean its going to work exactly the same. Old school and hardcore are both false, maybe if people took the time to actually read everything the game is about then they would release that it is false. Boreing: I'm sure it was in beta 2, there wasn't alot of content and so i'm sure it got boreing quick (they were working on the systems first, then once that was ready then they could add content), now however, people say that most people playing in beta 3 are really enjoying it. The people who aren't are probably not the type of people meant to play an MMO (just like some people are not meant to play football).
These are my answers to your questions. Everything i've said is from something i've read/heard which means that although it may be false, it has just as much prove and reliablitity as anything you say, repeat, or hear.
Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
MMO background: EQ, UO, AO, SWG, PS, EQ2, L2,EQoA, WoW, WWIIO, and AC2
You have obviously come to MMO gaming quite recently. Even so you couldnt have missed the Saga of Mourning ?
Dont you remember what Anarchy Online's number one Fan Site was called ?
Anyone ?
AOBasher.com and the stuff in these forums is like a love fest in comparison. Not to mention the fact that bashing online games in development was already old after UO and EQ.
The youth of today *sigh*
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
yeah most of the criticism is coming from the people that are on the "anti-soe crusade" as soon as they heard that soe was involved all of a sudden everything about vanguard sucks now.
but also alot of it has to do with vanguard being one of if not the most anticipated mmorpg to be released next year. people just don't spend all their free time bashing one particular game because they are not interested, they are either indeed interested or (like in Jonaku case) just demand attention and bring no real argument of their own to the table.
yeah people have a right to be concerned if they will like vanguard, and judging from all the attention vanguard gets it is not a bad thing that vanguard gets so much attention good or bad.
If you remember back to 1999, before the release of EverQuest, most of the gaming press, especially game devs of other games, said that games like EQ had not future, that the industry wassn't ready like trying to stop EverQuest's realease, today we have to talk about EvereQuest as success and as 7 years old game.
I think there's a little of fear from the indutry, basically because SIGIL is going to bring back aspects tha others devs considered obsolet and looks like those aspects are really needed in the industry. As the time comes, Vanguard looks better and better, we just have to wait.
Depending of how the P.R. and marketing from SOE and SIGIL manage the good and criticims and use it as promotion, they can really receive better results than the expected at realease.
Dimitrio Darkblade
Founder Leader of Vitae Essentia
http://www.veguild.org
A lack of understanding is the problem. That or a personal hatred of SOE! I known they screwed SWG into the ground (that was a really big disappoinment) but people should not tarnish SIGIL's name because of their association with SOE. I know I will not.
The more I read on Vanguard the more I like - I have even found a guild before release. First itme I have ever down that!
Currently Playing:- nothing
I don't hold high hopes for vanguard, and not because I hate SOE.
Now I played Everquest1 for 5 years, and have played EQ2 a little bit. When I look at the Vanguard screenshots, it just looks too much like the original Everquest to me.
Obviously I can only go by the small number of screenshots we've seen, but the game seems rather similar atleast to someone who played EQ alot.
I just don't think we need another iteration of Everquest.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I personally don't hate it, and I don't think many others do either. But if you look at the promises and what it delivers some people feel that what the dev team says isn't true. And don't come with the it's still in Beta, 6 months to release arguments. The major features in this game are locked down, and they aren't going to change much from now. It will be tweaked, bugs will be fixed and the game will be optimized. But the core features, the gameplay and the world are pretty much going to stay the same.
(2) If you look at (1) you see that I think it's the dev's fault. I believe that they don't tell the truth about what the game really is. They keep hyping the 3rd generation bla bla, when all the info, screens and movies they release is all the old stuff all over again.
And it's not unique at all. This happens to all games.
Several reasons.
1. Not all, but a large number of the Vanguard fans have been extremely obnoxious with their silly mantra that playing this game somehow makes them "elite", and everyone else is some kind of noob who should go play WoW. With a *cough* community like that, expect the game to get some heat. In other words, if you can't take it don't dish it out.
2. At lot of us, myself included, were really looking forward to this game, only to realize that it isn't as represented. So there is a lot of frustration of what could have been versus what is. Our Knight in shining armor turned out to be a Fuller brush salesman.
3. SOE
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I think those calling Iteration, imitation, Everquest 3 to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes are going to lose the 1st day experience, Vanguard won't be anything like EverQuest, even if is done by the original developers and producers, screenshots? Screenshots are stastic images and these screenshots are *.jpeg so it doesn't make justice to the mmo
, there's an image that put each dark elf one next to another and the graphic of Dark elf looks better than the other 3 dark elfs from EQ to EQ2. But I guess you just will have to wait for vanguard's release.
Dimitrio Darkblade
Founder Leader of Vitae Essentia
http://www.veguild.org
Dimitrio Darkblade
Founder Leader of Vitae Essentia
http://www.veguild.org
For god sake there is critisim against those games to, its just that you seem to HATE THIS GAME, and constantly bring it up, YOU my friend are retarded.
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
DING DING DING we have a winner!
1. A huge number of Vanguard fanbois bash WoW, I posted some links to the Vanguard boards on some popular WoW sites I visited to invite some hate right back!
2. Right, this game is no where near "hardcore", heck even EQ1 in the beginning wasn't that hard for some classes.
3. I despise SOE and how they destroyed EQ.
4. I played an EQ1 Warrior, Brad hosed the class badly and I love hating on him for it! The WoW Warrior can solo, and I don't give a crap a Mage can do it better, ANY friggin solo ability was better then the crap EQ1 had. Paladins and SKs were way more desired in groups, the only reason to play an MMORPG imo, from about late Velious on, due to -tada- bad Brad class design. So we can't solo and no one wants us in groups, how fun lfg for 2 hours a day is. Then precious Brad says "just dump your character you have 40+ days in played and start a newbie". Well screw that, play a new game hows that Brad and SOE! With 4 tank classes in Vanguard get ready for the hate! See "EQ Warrior stand down" to see how bad it got in EQ.
I can't answer for other peoples.
Me, myself, it is because I CARE and I feel this duty, both toward the players and the devs, as an ex-EQ player. If I play more than a year ONLINE with my main and many more months on twinks, even if I stop in 2003, I feel this duty toward other players and the devs themselves (EQ-focus here). 4k messages is nothing, especially that most of them are not related to Vanguard...
It is also because I believe that deep inside, there is something that MIGHT save them, no matter how unlikely it is to happen, I keep hoping. I mean, Brad can't really hate non-raiders that much. It must be some evil charm done by a Johny dance in some private room back then, I am there to help him succeed his saving throw and stop the raiding madness. He must have failed his last 50 saving throws, real bad luck if you ask me, but eventually, he will succeed and the game will be fun...or so I hope!
Soloers would all have left with scorn, I also hope to bring back these soloers, so they can be turn into groupers...not by enforcement, but by awesome gameplays and differents challenges and rewards that doesn't impact solo...but that is a secondary objective. Enforcements doesn't turn soloers into groupers, "taming them" as you would with wild animals does. I don't see this secondary objective happening in Vanguard however.
You see, I am a "Care Bear", I can't let them down! Community duty. They show us much for "Care Bearness", I have to bring the most devastating attacking attack: LOVE_ATTACK_004
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
We're all just here because we're bored, and the O.P. was just another troll post in this section. Funny thing is, if all the new games out right now didn't suck so bad none of us would be here. Reading threads like this, I wonder if some gamers will ever be happy with any MMO ever again. Find something you like already.