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PvP zones and the players who just don't get the concept
MrArchy
Member Posts: 643
If you are in the middle of Restuss, flagged as Special Forces, no matter what level you are or no matter why you are here (antenna missions), I still have the right to attack you...
Correct?
Now last time I checked, if you're Special Forces, you're asking for pvp.
Did the devs add some new law to the game that I am not aware of which says SF players cannot attack other SF players while they are riding around on their swoop in the middle of a heavy pvp zone planning on doing missions? If so, then I was WAAYYY out of line in performing my duties as an Imperial Soldier on the field of battle...
Zyratul
Unlocked: 7 / 5 / 05
Dark Jedi Padawan (Pre-NGE)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man, I just love seeing posts like this on the $OE boards. The number of players who do not understand that within a PvP zone they can and may well be attacked is incredible. This kind of thinking typifies the NGE fanboi, IMHO. Y'know, I went overt one time without fully understanding the consequences, and I paid the price. I died, I learned, and later I got my revenge upon my attackers. Then I got over it. It was pretty damn obvious that the possibility of being attacked was once of the consequences of going overt - I dealt with it. NGE fanbois just don't get it. It's such a simple thing, but it really does describe the world of differences between the typical preNGE player and the typical postNGE player. If I were still in the game, I'd be ganking NGE fanbois for being stupid as well.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
Comments
These are the same idiots that cry about disproportionate use of force in a war. Doesn't exist in my mind. Just win and go home. And do so expeditiously. It's the best thing you can do for you and your enemy. Same thing with entering a PvP zone. Own or be owned. There is no try.
Somebody needs to pull these turkeys aside and remind them that like baseball, there is no crying in Restuss.I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Damn right. I hated PVP and I knew what a PVP zone is.
Same whining got the TEF's removed. It was never the carebears, it was the clueless.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Damn right. I hated PVP and I knew what a PVP zone is.
Same whining got the TEF's removed. It was never the carebears, it was the clueless.
Yeah. I was very happy as a neutral and as such TEFs never bothered me.
Once again, the complete lack of design rears its ugly head.
- Levels are bad for pvp
- All pvp enabled games add level checks. Either by restricting pvp vs. players with too low/too high level, or more cleverly, by designing the world in such a way that it doesn't put players of ALL levels into one, tiny forced pvp spot.
- The design of Restuss is moronic as well. It combines arena aproach with pve. Which is it? Contested zone where you may get attacked, or two spawn points in a 500x500m area where people whack each other. You can't have both.
- What's the point? Pvpers have no purpose there tbh. It's a pve zone, where people need to go pvp to do their quests. This is just like proclaiming Theed a pvp zone, then telling players to deal with how they do their quests. CoV/CoH, WoW both introduce contested zones where you need to perform quests. But you are not thrown into a lion's pit at level 10 when everyone else is level 50. This can be violated obviously, but not to a great extent.
- What is Restuss? A POI? A battlefield? Arena? Quest instance? Loot spawn point? Everything and nothing. You cannot mix completely different aspects in such a way and hope it'll be well received.
Once again, putting a magical ring on some planet that turns you pvp without any real warning or choice is nonsense. This is why you add planets or clerarly defined zones.
Better PvP concept (based on common aproach as used in other MMOs):
- Faction planets: each belongs to one faction, safe zones)
- Contested planets: NPCs belong to one faction, players are not declared pvp TEFed unless they attack opposing faction NPC or TEFed player. Some PvE quests in the area require you to TEF yourself.
- Battlegrounds: Planets with clearly defined fortresses. Each faction is safe within a fortress, may safely land, but everywhere else, it's red = dead. All quests there server PvP only.
Rules hold for each planet in entirety.
Each planet is accesible based on your level.
Faction rating rules are in effect, killing low level players/NPCs for various purposes results in harsh penalties.
In addition, terrain must acommodate and guide the players to various hotspots, rather then let them wander around without any real purpose.
I agree with War_Dancer and Sayde on this. I have never been into PvP (well i was BH for a time pre-CU and did hunt jedi on a few occasions) but it was GREAT FUN unlocking jedi pre-CU and be on your toes all the time, likewise with the TEF system when i was building fp.
Some people just don't have a clue...
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
Hell, WoW has more hardcore PvP rules than SWG does, they have open PvP on some of their servers, no declaring, no going to special zones...
Then again, they also have SHITLOADS of PvE content that is outside their PvP content, unlike SWG, which hasn't added anything PvE since the last expansion and has deleted or made worthless much of what already existed.
I do mean to use the term "NGE fanbois" for a reason. I am aware that, in any group, there is variability, and that there are players who get the concept. That's why I used the words "typifies" and "typical" - it doesn't mean every single fanboi is like this without exception, but instead that the general group mean behavior is. I should have perhaps been a bit more clear, but when I generalize I am fully aware there are exceptions. Obraik, you are a fanboi, but I also know you are among the exceptions.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
Once again, the complete lack of design rears its ugly head.
- Levels are bad for pvp
- All pvp enabled games add level checks. Either by restricting pvp vs. players with too low/too high level, or more cleverly, by designing the world in such a way that it doesn't put players of ALL levels into one, tiny forced pvp spot.
- The design of Restuss is moronic as well. It combines arena aproach with pve. Which is it? Contested zone where you may get attacked, or two spawn points in a 500x500m area where people whack each other. You can't have both.
- What's the point? Pvpers have no purpose there tbh. It's a pve zone, where people need to go pvp to do their quests. This is just like proclaiming Theed a pvp zone, then telling players to deal with how they do their quests. CoV/CoH, WoW both introduce contested zones where you need to perform quests. But you are not thrown into a lion's pit at level 10 when everyone else is level 50. This can be violated obviously, but not to a great extent.
- What is Restuss? A POI? A battlefield? Arena? Quest instance? Loot spawn point? Everything and nothing. You cannot mix completely different aspects in such a way and hope it'll be well received.
Once again, putting a magical ring on some planet that turns you pvp without any real warning or choice is nonsense. This is why you add planets or clerarly defined zones.
Better PvP concept (based on common aproach as used in other MMOs):
- Faction planets: each belongs to one faction, safe zones)
- Contested planets: NPCs belong to one faction, players are not declared pvp TEFed unless they attack opposing faction NPC or TEFed player. Some PvE quests in the area require you to TEF yourself.
- Battlegrounds: Planets with clearly defined fortresses. Each faction is safe within a fortress, may safely land, but everywhere else, it's red = dead. All quests there server PvP only.
Rules hold for each planet in entirety.
Each planet is accesible based on your level.
Faction rating rules are in effect, killing low level players/NPCs for various purposes results in harsh penalties.
In addition, terrain must acommodate and guide the players to various hotspots, rather then let them wander around without any real purpose.
- What makes levels bad for PvP?
- Why should the game have to force low levels not to enter the area? It's a no brainer really, if you're not of the level everyone else in the area is then you shouldn't be going in there UNLESS you really want to. There's no reason for a low level player to be there, the NPCs are all at least level 80 and the XP is not worthwhile anymore.
- Restuss is for those that like PvE AND PvP, a battleground with benefits. You complete PvE missions and you have the risk of encountering PvP. Someone summed it up pretty well: Consider it to be like an HK instance, but every so often you may encounter a boss mob(s) that has superior (most times, heh) AI to the usual Mobs you were killing for loot and will use a range of special abilities. Again, it's a high level area, there's no reason a low level would be there.
- If you don't know Restuss is a PvP zone then you've been living under a rock. Assuming you have, as soon as you cross the border you get a warning. If you don't want to PvP, this warning is a pretty good sign that you should be turning around the way you came and typing /pvp to go back to being a combatant.
I do however think they should add in some PvP zones for those that are in the lower levels and put an appropriate cap on them so they can experience PvP with people of their own level.
I do mean to use the term "NGE fanbois" for a reason. I am aware that, in any group, there is variability, and that there are players who get the concept. That's why I used the words "typifies" and "typical" - it doesn't mean every single fanboi is like this without exception, but instead that the general group mean behavior is. I should have perhaps been a bit more clear, but when I generalize I am fully aware there are exceptions. Obraik, you are a fanboi, but I also know you are among the exceptions.
In the game though, these people complaining are the exception, at least on Chilastra. Out of all the people in the PvP zone, only 1 or 2 (out of over 50 on many occasions) might be a person that would complain about this sort of thing.
- Why should the game have to force low levels not to enter the area? It's a no brainer really, if you're not of the level everyone else in the area is then you shouldn't be going in there UNLESS you really want to. There's no reason for a low level player to be there, the NPCs are all at least level 80 and the XP is not worthwhile anymore.
- If you don't know Restuss is a PvP zone then you've been living under a rock. Assuming you have, as soon as you cross the border you get a warning. If you don't want to PvP, this warning is a pretty good sign that you should be turning around the way you came and typing /pvp to go back to being a combatant.
Seems obvious to all of us, and yet there are numerous posts every day (most get deleted once the mods wake up) in which some noobcake carebear whines about getting killed in PvP while attempting PvE missions in Restuss. It's obvious, yet many still JUST DON'T GET IT. There were stupid players in the game during the preCU and CU versions as well, but I must admit it seems there is a higher percentage of stupid players in the game now than at any prior time (esp. considering the number of posts vs. the reduced server populations). Especially when I see this same type of post every single day, several times per day. The level of repeat foolishness simply and honestly amazes me.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
Damn right. I hated PVP and I knew what a PVP zone is.
Same whining got the TEF's removed. It was never the carebears, it was the clueless.
Yeah. I was very happy as a neutral and as such TEFs never bothered me.
I was a very happy Neutral.. but TEF's endangered me. I could attack both Imps and Rebs. Funny glitch, but it was FUN... killing both sides.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Once again, we get back to the accessibility.
To some, such things are obvious. Ah, Restuss, 550m SF radius, base at 4355,3555, etc. But it's a game. Such things need to be prevented or clearly labeled.
You can go arguing here as much as you want about how people should get smarter. Nope. Players are stupid, they will do stupid things. And they will do them over and over.
Look once again at WoW. Why is it considered accessible? You have open world. You can walk everywhere. And yet, the world constantly hints you at where you should be. Wander too far off, and mobs will kill you. But not 1-shot you, they'll just dish out enough damage to kill you faster than you can kill them. You cannot wander into some weird area where you'll suddenly be ganked by 5 players all 68 levels above you. Again, do levels matter in SWG. Not really. But to "a player" this is unfair. Never should they be killed by someone 4x their level.
A good and accesible world won't be dumb. It won't be boring. But it will be designed in such a way, that player is always placed where they fit.
This concept of course is against the very nature of SWG, or better yet, of SWG that it was. Right now, the world should be completely gated, completely restricted and require certain level to access it. This isn't about what's good design or not, it's just about what level based systems require. And then you can go and balance damage and progression.
Restuss is a free-for-all pvp/pve zone. This recipe was abolished so long ago I can't even remember the game that used it. Why? Because it's so broken and so hostile to players that nobody in their sane mind would implement it. Take AO for example. When you enter hostile area, a timer starts that warns you you'll be attackable in 30 or so seconds. And even then the leveling is done in such a way that you're not at threat.
Some will of course go on a rant that hard-core ftw and so on. SWG is no longer a hardcore (or whatever) game. It's now a level based WoW clone. But extremly poorly done at that. It fails to understand why WoW does what it does so effectively. It has nothing to do with graphics, UI, skills or lock-on combat. It's all about world design. But what works there cannot work here. Not without a radical change of world itself.
Look at it this way. When you're walking on naboo doing the Legacy quest, you don't expect to be ambushed by level 90 gold elite. You don't think about it. You know that your experience will be balanced towards your level.
Mustafar is high-level planet. But you need to travel there and you'll
be made unwelcome as soon as you land. Kash is mid-level planet, but
once again, as soon as you start driving around, the levels of mobs
start rising fast. It once again hints you that you're not welcome.
Restuss is on Rori. Last time I checked, Rori is not a high-level planet. It belongs among the benign ones at the same level as tat, naboo and cnet. And smack in the middle of nothing you're in a level 90 PVP zone. This, no other word for it, is poor world design. Restuss, or the equivalent of Restuss should be on a separate planet, populated by nothing by level 88+ mobs and with exception of starports, pvp enabled. And then of course, there should be mid level planets, or better yet, moons, smaller, for intermediate pvp. Unfortunately, once you introduce levels, you need to finish the job and change the world to support them. Changing a character object just isn't enough.
And I dont think it fair to even say a "typical" nge'r is one that doesnt get the pvp rules. Back in pre-cu, there were many idiots who didnt understand or think a system as tame as the tef system was fair. Which is why we got the SF crapola.
In Wow, I think pvp servers are heaven, I love the excitement getting ganked and retaliating, but you'll always have those people whining in general chat about not being able to finish a quest because someone has killed the quest giver or there's 2 alliance killing the mobs they need and then there are about 8 people who in their infinate wisdome are like "omg report them for griefing". ..... I guess they didnt see the big P V P letters beside the server description. It happens in any game, the nge is no exception here.
For the Horde!
My favorites in Restuss are the folks running into the area spamming "DON'T SHOOT, I AM JUST DOING MISSIONS"
They are the first to die.
Why would KNOWINGLY run into a PVP area and expect to be left alone? Every now and then I get /tells from them saying "Why did you do that? I don't like PVP"
Ummmmmm....yeah
Reminds me of catching cloakers in Planetside trying to sneak in a base and wasting them, then they cry because "they couldn't compete against my heavy armored guy". Made no sense.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
And I dont think it fair to even say a "typical" nge'r is one that doesnt get the pvp rules. Back in pre-cu, there were many idiots who didnt understand or think a system as tame as the tef system was fair. Which is why we got the SF crapola.
Heh.
/equip tinfoil hat
Who stood the most to gain from the removal of TEFs and the introduction of PvE only combatants? Faction farmers. And at a typical 100 credit/faction point, it is a nice way to sell off credits earned.
/remove tinfoil hat