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The "freedom" ad campaign for Vanguard
Amathe
Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
In Vanguard's advertisements, they are emphasizing the word "freedom" to market the game. I can sort of understand how they came up with this. There are a lot of professions and classes. It is a zoneless world. But most importantly a lot of the "rules" some people complained of in EQ2 are absent in Vanguard. So it's not complete crap.
But as all things with this game, they cannot stick to truths and have to resort to half truths that become outright lies. The ads go on to say how you can fly on a dragon (and similar examples). Now technically this is true. But what the ad doesn't say is you can do these things if, and only if, you spend a zillion hours playing the game and are among the elite few ever to be able to do that.
It is wrong to characterize that as freedom. It's like saying you can go to Washington DC and have dinner with the President. Yes, you can, if you are a governor or a congressman or if you donate $50,000 to a political party. So in a technical sense you have the freedom to do this but in any ordinary sense you do not. These things are flat out untrue from the point of view of the average player who purchases the product in reliance on those ads and thinks they will ever really get to do these things. Dragon mounts are for the self styled elite few, and everyone else is just suppoed to keep paying a subscription fee for the privilege of admiring people who have one lol. That's the Vision (tm).
This is just another example of my biggest problem with Vanguard. I don't really care how they make the game. Their choices all become considerations for whether I will play it or not, in this case, not. But here we have a game that is one thing that is being marketed as another thing because the first thing isn't very popular. I put these guys in the same category as Mourning. Not that the game is vaporware, because it isn't, but because they have no scruples in what they say about it to get people to buy it.
Why don't they just tell the truth? If the game is as good as some of the posters in this forum believe it is, what harm could come to the game from telling the truth about it? I propose that they ad a disclaimer to the box:
This game is intended to be enjoyed by people who devote 5 or more hours a day to playing videogames. If you are not such a person you can still play this game, but you will have a very weak character who will only be able to experience a fraction of the game content and will never be able to enjoy many of the game rewards.
So I ask you, why run from the truth if the game is so good? Why put out ads touting freedom that is 95% illusory? Unless by freedom they mean in a Janice Joplin sense, where "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
Sorry not trying to sound snippy just making a point. You can have anything you want you just have to make it happen.
I admire your enthusiasm and respect your point of view (no doubt you have been able to do this in other games, as have I), but you are mistaken. Let me explain.
There are things that can be done in games where it may take you a lot longer as a player with limited time to do, but if you keep at it, get lucky, or get some help from friends you will eventually get there. For example, faction rewards in WoW PvP (to be clear, faction, not ranks).. Even if you suck at PvP, and even if you don't play that much, if you just keep going to PvP instances eventually you will get those rewards. It's just a matter of sticking to it, as you point out. Another example from EQ. You need a rare spawn. It may take you months and months, but if you stay in that area eventually the mob will spawn and you will be able to complete that quest. I could give many more examples from other games, my point being that casual players can reach max level and get nice things if they just keep chipping at it.
But what you don't realize is that fact, the very point you make, is one of the primary things that powergamers hate about other mmos. It's not enough that they have nice things. It's not enough that they got them before you did. They want to have something and you not have it. Brad is very in tune with this sentiment. He knows there are a lot of frustrated hardcore gamers out there who are tired of getting a reward, only to see Joe Lunchpail gamer get it too, albeit much later. That is the very beating heart of the Vision and the overarching game design - hardcore players will have things and you will not have them; not now, not ever.
That is why I posted. If you are one of these people who think that "well, it may take me longer but I will get there and have the nice items someday, I just need to stick with it", you are in for a rude awakening. Your presence in the game is to pay for the game so the players Brad relates to can enjoy it. That's it.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You speak truth.
They should make this post a sticky.
Freedom to wander around maybe, not much past that. Welcome cleric #4382 which standard healing spells would you like to use today?
So what you are saying is that they've told the truth, and that makes them liars... come on...
I'm sorry for you and the others who don't want a hard game, but it is. If you want to be handed a Dragon Egg at log-in, this game is not for you. It's a goal, and should be Dragons should be rare, and VERY hard to get. And they SHOULD advertise flying a Dragons.... it's about possibilities & freedom of play...
I'm not a Hardcore gamer when I was playing Galaxies, and usually only got to play 3-4 days a week, for a few hours if I was lucky, but I still got a Jedi, a great saber, a city with friends, rare mounts, rare quest items, a full set of MAndo, a Jet pack & almost all of the badges... sure it took a few 5 hour sessions, but mainly it took patience. It all came with time... an I feel sorry for folks like you who want everything easy...
So what, Flying a Dragon is a goal, and it's not easy. It's this type of gimme-I'm-lazy mindset that destroyed Galaxies, and wants every game to be a cookie cutter of WoW. I'm just sick of it.
I'll have my Dragon... it may take a year or 2 or 3, but eventually, I'll earn one... and it'll feel great when I do...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I admire your enthusiasm and respect your point of view (no doubt you have been able to do this in other games, as have I), but you are mistaken. Let me explain.
There are things that can be done in games where it may take you a lot longer as a player with limited time to do, but if you keep at it, get lucky, or get some help from friends you will eventually get there. For example, faction rewards in WoW PvP (to be clear, faction, not ranks).. Even if you suck at PvP, and even if you don't play that much, if you just keep going to PvP instances eventually you will get those rewards. It's just a matter of sticking to it, as you point out. Another example from EQ. You need a rare spawn. It may take you months and months, but if you stay in that area eventually the mob will spawn and you will be able to complete that quest. I could give many more examples from other games, my point being that casual players can reach max level and get nice things if they just keep chipping at it.
But what you don't realize is that fact, the very point you make, is one of the primary things that powergamers hate about other mmos. It's not enough that they have nice things. It's not enough that they got them before you did. They want to have something and you not have it. Brad is very in tune with this sentiment. He knows there are a lot of frustrated hardcore gamers out there who are tired of getting a reward, only to see Joe Lunchpail gamer get it too, albeit much later. That is the very beating heart of the Vision and the overarching game design - hardcore players will have things and you will not have them; not now, not ever.
That is why I posted. If you are one of these people who think that "well, it may take me longer but I will get there and have the nice items someday, I just need to stick with it", you are in for a rude awakening. Your presence in the game is to pay for the game so the players Brad relates to can enjoy it. That's it.
Americans say america is free even though some people will never be eating cavier. It should be clear from my post above that I think the "freedom" tag is bunk when applied to EQ type games. But I think you are confusing your criticisms.
You want equality not freedom. They are not the same thing and sometimes are at odds with each. Vanguard will not be a particularly "free" or "open" game. It is the same old tied down class based stuff. But even if it were "free" and "open" that doesn't mean a dragon wouldn't cost a bajillion gold.
Freedom != Equality. Your criticism may be valid but your terminology is mixed up. Freedom means lack of restriction not providing everyone equal means. Clearly a game like Vanguard will have many restrictions, it is niether free nor equal. But you are criiticising its lack of equality and are not addressing why it isn't free.
This is not about hard or easy. I've played the same games you have, maybe more. I've achieved the same things you have, maybe more. So this "oh you want an easy game" stuff is inapplicable.
I don't doubt that as a player with limited time you achieved the things you say you did in SWG and other games.
What you don't understand is that HARDCORE PLAYERS HATE THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO DO THAT. It's the old addage, "it's not enough that I win. Others must lose." Vanguard is designed to where you won't be able to get as far as you did in other games, just hanging in there and being partient, chipping away at a goal over time. Because if that were possible, Vanguard would be no different than some of the games other posters like you have mentioned where they had the best stuff (or at least very good stuff) just working at a goal over time.
Certain kinds of players will have things and others will just not. That is how they differentiate themselves from WoW. If you have tier 3 gear in WoW then you distinguish yourself from players without it until the inevitable happens and they catch up with you. Hardcore players despise that. They want to have tier 3 gear and you be in rags. That's their version of fun.
Have you read their boards? Did you ever ask yourself why so much hate there for EQ post Luclin? I will tell you why. Pre-Luclin certain players had achieved the highest status possible in the game at that time. Then the Luclin expansion came out and two things happened. Better stuff became available then their gear, and players they had formerly lorded their stuff over could get their hands on it. So when you see all the hate for Luclin, that's where it is coming from. It was a changing of the guard in terms of in game status.
Brad knows this. He knows that "the bleeding edge", as he fondly calls them, wants not merely to have the best stuff, but to have it to the exclusion of all others. And he's going to deliver that to them. It's a big part of the Vision.
And thus the reason for my original post. Sigil is leading people to believe that they can buy this game as a casual player and do what they have done in other games, which is get to the same place as hardcore players, just in more time. And it ain't so. Read my lips - you ain't getting a dragon mount. But if you want to spend hundreds of dollars over many years to find that out, go for it.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
This is not about hard or easy. I've played the same games you have, maybe more. I've achieved the same things you have, maybe more. So this "oh you want an easy game" stuff is inapplicable.
I don't doubt that as a player with limited time you achieved the things you say you did in SWG and other games.
What you don't understand is that HARDCORE PLAYERS HATE THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO DO THAT. It's the old addage, "it's not enough that I win. Others must lose." Vanguard is designed to where you won't be able to get as far as you did in other games, just hanging in there and being partient, chipping away at a goal over time. Because if that were possible, Vanguard would be no different than some of the games other posters like you have mentioned where they had the best stuff (or at least very good stuff) just working at a goal over time.
Certain kinds of players will have things and others will just not. That is how they differentiate themselves from WoW. If you have tier 3 gear in WoW then you distinguish yourself from players without it until the inevitable happens and they catch up with you. Hardcore players despise that. They want to have tier 3 gear and you be in rags. That's their version of fun.
Have you read their boards? Did you ever ask yourself why so much hate there for EQ post Luclin? I will tell you why. Pre-Luclin certain players had achieved the highest status possible in the game at that time. Then the Luclin expansion came out and two things happened. Better stuff became available then their gear, and players they had formerly lorded their stuff over could get their hands on it. So when you see all the hate for Luclin, that's where it is coming from. It was a changing of the guard in terms of in game status.
Brad knows this. He knows that "the bleeding edge", as he fondly calls them, wants not merely to have the best stuff, but to have it to the exclusion of all others. And he's going to deliver that to them. It's a big part of the Vision.
And thus the reason for my original post. Sigil is leading people to believe that they can buy this game as a casual player and do what they have done in other games, which is get to the same place as hardcore players, just in more time. And it ain't so. Read my lips - you ain't getting a dragon mount. But if you want to spend hundreds of dollars over many years to find that out, go for it.
this is SO on the money. it's because of these lies, deceptions and parasitic zero-sum attitudes that there's so much hate for this game and its community. preach on and amen.
Brad knows this. He knows that "the bleeding edge", as he fondly calls them, wants not merely to have the best stuff, but to have it to the exclusion of all others. And he's going to deliver that to them. It's a big part of the Vision.
And thus the reason for my original post. Sigil is leading people to believe that they can buy this game as a casual player and do what they have done in other games, which is get to the same place as hardcore players, just in more time. And it ain't so. Read my lips - you ain't getting a dragon mount. But if you want to spend hundreds of dollars over many years to find that out, go for it.
Where does it say this? And don't say the Forums, boards, SV or FoH... I've been following this game for well over a year, going on two, and I've never read anything close to this. What I have read is that there will be some raiding as endgame content, but that similar items will be available to smaller groups.
Where does it say to get a Dragon mount you need to be in an Uber Raiding Guild? Where does it say these items will be limited to the L337 crowd? If anything, the Dev's have stated they are considering measures to stop this type of "deny others" loot camping, and said they will go as far as it takes to stop it.
In fact, the Dev's have clearly stated that 80% or the Quests and possible rewards will not be available by raiding. They've also said that 80% of the best gear will be attainable without raiding.
Look, you're right, some were angry when I got my Mando, many tried to grief us. We reported them, got them killed & went on. That's gaming, but the point was we got it done... a small guild working together... and it can be done, and will happen for the casual gamer dispite the "L337ists". Say otherwise without proof is just yelling fire in a crowded theater...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I'm not going to play the link it game. I have read many, many thousands of posts on their official boards, read interviews, listened to interviews, etc., etc., etc. (having followed the game for over two years). And no, I don't feel like digging through all that crap to find you the specific page. If you decide you don't believe me on that basis, fine. You will see for yourself soon enough.
They can make the numbers anything they want for marketing purposes. For example, how much solo content is there in the game? The answer is it's whatever they say it is, depending on how you define content. Is killing a rat or rat equivalent content? If so, every rat in the game is "solo content." Is a delivery quest content? If so, every time you take an item from one guy to another that's "solo/casual content." What if a mob or quest has only crap for loot? Is that content?
So long as you don't define what you mean, or parrse words, Sigil can say the numbers are whatever suits their purposes to reach whatever market they are aiming for this week.
But most of us would agree that the measuring stick is meaningful content; i.e., something you do that produces a tangible, worthwhile reward.
Yes they have said there is solo and casual content in the game. Yes they have assigned an arbirtary statistic to it. If you accept that at face value, ok. But try asking them questions about the quality of that content versus other content and see what happens ...
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
C'mon people, it's marketing. Have you ever known marketing to be truthful...did Ford ever advertise that the electronics in your parked car would ignite and burn down your house and attached garage? Or that those nice spiffy tires would cause your SUV or light truck to roll over? Or that your Mercury Marquis has an exploding gas tank option? Nope, they advertise how safe their vehicle is. Ever see McDonalds tell you how use of their product will clog the arteries and contribute to obesity and heart attack? What do you expect, truth in advertising?
If you're interested in the product you just have to test it out yourself.
Is the average person going to be? No. Could they. YES.
Just because you have the opportunity to do something doesnt mean you will do it or have it handed to you.
Welcome to the real world friend. No one told you to believe that you would get to fly a dragon when you logged on in a starting zone. You stated that you played many mmos in furter posts. You do know the score in these games then am i right? That being said why are you posting this twist when you know from your vast experience in different games and betas what to expect from these games. Am I missing something here? I suggest you unplug from your computer, go out into the real world and see what it takes to create something, how much work and sacrifice it takes to achieve your goals instead of venting like this because of your frustration with someone else ( The Devs ) being in charge of your destiny in the game worlds you have stated you spend so much time in
Freedom of western countries is not the freedom to do whatever you want. It is freedom from tyranny and oppression.
Freedom of a game is not to win in the first ten minutes with no effort. It is the freedom to not be stuck in a linear storyline and to be able to choose from a wide variety of classes and playstyles.
People who hate punitive timesinks like xp debt/loss, items loss, and corpse runs will leave the game because life is too short. They'll encounter these hardcore game mechanics LONG before they hit hell levels though, so your obstacle to Vanguard having a mainstream audience is really ancillary. Most of them won't be around long enough to leave because of it.
Still, their ad is fair. No game is going to advertise "Hey come play Vanguard! We have horribley punitive timesinks and even if you avoid this content and thus all of the best rewards in the game, it will still take you forever to level."
Doing this would be madness. Money is in the mainstream market and most games not only market to this group. They design their games to appeal to them. By advertising to a group that is going to despise their game, Sigil/SOE is really just throwing good money after bad.
i see your point. i dont like WoW because of how easy it is though....like you were saying how you can get uber gear even if you suck or whatever? thats great for people who suck or people who dont want to get more hardcore about it. and if you are one of those people...stay in WoW then. but if your someone who likes more of a challange then try out Vanguard.....thats all
But what you don't realize is that fact, the very point you make, is one of the primary things that powergamers hate about other mmos. It's not enough that they have nice things. It's not enough that they got them before you did. They want to have something and you not have it. Brad is very in tune with this sentiment. He knows there are a lot of frustrated hardcore gamers out there who are tired of getting a reward, only to see Joe Lunchpail gamer get it too, albeit much later. That is the very beating heart of the Vision and the overarching game design - hardcore players will have things and you will not have them; not now, not ever.
LOL. Guess what, if these "hardcore gamers" don't want me to have stuff, that's their problem. I will make a good attempt and if I don't get some piece of loot, I won't cry over it. It's all about the experience and time with friends, not being uber or l33t. Maybe it is to them, but not me. I play to have fun.You seem very concerned with what you believe is a lack of freedom. Know what? If they can do it, anyone can. That's freedom. Nobody ever said you get a dragon at level 5. If you did, it would mean another easy game that gave everything away. Level cap in two weeks and everyone has the epic loot. If that happened, I wouldn't play. I want a challenge, even if it's one that I never overcome.
That is why I posted. If you are one of these people who think that "well, it may take me longer but I will get there and have the nice items someday, I just need to stick with it", you are in for a rude awakening. Your presence in the game is to pay for the game so the players Brad relates to can enjoy it. That's it.If you play the game and feel
like you are footing the bill for the l33t crowd, that's how you feel.
I, on the other hand, will have fun and not stress over whether or not
I'm keeping up with the Jones'. If putting in a million hours and tons
of gold for an uber chest piece makes them feel elite, ok, good for
them. I'm not stressing over it.
There's another thing you are forgetting. Friends and community. Even if there's not one more thing for me to do, I can always get together with friends and make our own fun, travel, explore, hang out, whatever.
There are so many easy MMO games out right now, with more on the way, that I'm glad someone had the gazoonas enough to put out a challenging game, even if it means missing out on the mainstream WoW crowd. Too many developers are fighting for those customers and I believe that Sigil will actually have a larger market going this way than if they joined the fray and chased WoW with everyone else.
My response above in red. This is my opinion and I take nothing away from you, or your opinion. You are entitled to it.
it does look to me as though vanguard will support the concept of an elite top 5% raiding community. they will have the best gear and so access to everything in the game before the non elite.
you will need to be in a raiding guild and show up for most of their raids to be a part of the elite.
How many hours did you log in to this game to figure that out?
Don't you know? Brad is actually a very large fan of the Davinci Code so, as a result, all of his long posts actually contain sekret code that basically states "100% raiding, f*** those pissant groupers and soloers."
I mean, isn't it obvious that someone broke the code, seeing as how everyone knows everything about everything on this board?
I don't mind at all you disagreeing with me, and I appreciate your doing it without being insulting.
Your response looks a lot like my own would have been some time back. I am not one to obsess about keeping up with the Jonses. Getting nice items is fun, but it's not the sine qua non of my gaming experience. If some raid guild bedecks itself with virtual finery, that's fine. It doesn't affect what I'm doing and I don't begrudge them that. Besides, normally speaking, "all things in time." I am a patient player and can wait.
But your post travels on an assumption that I would suggest is inaccurate. It assumes you can play the game in your own way and over time you will be fine and continue to enjoy new and entertaining content. That's not so. As another poster pointed out, if not in this thread than another on these boards, they have already said that if, for example, you solo you will find yourself underpowered to the point it will affect you.
Now maybe some people think that's a good thing. Maybe it is. But my point in this post is that the freedom ad campaign is highly misleading, because it implies you can do as you like when the truth is that if you don't play a certain way, you are going to hit a wall and find a lot of content forclosed. So while in some sense you have the freedom to play Sigil's way or enjoy total gimpitude, that's not really much of a choice and the suggestion that you have all of this supposed freedom isn't factual.
I also want to take this opportunity to thank the posters (not Delzo who was polite) who have flamed me and my opinions merely because I see the world differently than them, because it illustrates the gaming mindset and maturity level of a large part of the Vanguard community. Those are going to be someone's peers and guildmates. What a joy that will be.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Requiring raiding for endgame gear isn't a test of skill. Raids aren't hard, and if you don't want to organize people you can even get all the best loots just by joining a guild that does the raiding and showing up when you are suppossed to do so. It's just a time commitment.
Likewise, fighting mobs that have a timesink associated with being defeated just means that you have to use methods to ensure that you never die - like reading online FAQs, bringing along a highbie alt to save your ass if needed, and/or being more powerful than the content's recommended level. Or, if you have time, then just dealing with the timesinks by grinding and/or buying new stuff.
Challenge in MMOs is actual difficulty. Having to use your brain and/or fight something in a specific way in order to beat it. The day they start making videogames challenging so that there is a very real expectation that you will not be able to beat the content unless you are smarter than it and more than 20% fail at it, you will see people bitching and moaning about death penalties, because people really love challenges, but a challenge that requires you to work for an extra 1-4 hours to get out of the punitive timesink the designers associate with death just isn't any fun.
Punishments do not make the game challenging or make it require skill. I think what people are wanting is for MMOs to stop making an easy-mode that is about effort more than skill.