Originally posted by Amathe hardcore players will have things and you will not have them; not now, not ever.
That my friend is where you are mistaken. You may have to sit through a 4 hour raid once or twice a year, but eventually you can get anything. All you need is time, not the absence of a life. It will take unemployed teens less time to finish the content, but when is that not the case in any MMORPG ever?
Raids aren't hard for seasoned veterans, but they are impossible with people who don't know how to play their class. Raids are only easy when you're playing with non-spastic people who know how to play.
Difficulty is a relative term. Saying that timesinks are not a challenge is non-sequiter. Smacking your head against a wall for 5 hours instead of 5 minutes is more difficult, unless you are daft.
How do you make enemies harder? You can only go so far with enemy A.I. in a non-fps mmorpg. Let's here some ideas you have about making mobs and progression more difficult in a non-FPS MMORPG without simply making it some sort of time-sink.
Raids aren't hard for seasoned veterans, but they are impossible with people who don't know how to play their class. Raids are only easy when you're playing with non-spastic people who know how to play. Difficulty is a relative term. Saying that timesinks are not a challenge is non-sequiter. Smacking your head against a wall for 5 hours instead of 5 minutes is more difficult, unless you are daft. How do you make enemies harder? You can only go so far with enemy A.I. in a non-fps mmorpg. Let's here some ideas you have about making mobs and progression more difficult in a non-FPS MMORPG without simply making it some sort of time-sink. /tap's foot
I've played in hardcore guilds (even led them) and I've been a member of smaller mid-sized guilds that have a friends & family atmosphere - basically all of the friends and family of all of the members playing together. Both groups had really good players and really bad ones, and the only barrier for being able to do raids successfully was getting everyone to use voicechat so you could explain the strategy and getting enough people to show up.
The second obstacle - getting enough people - was a challenge - but an OUT OF GAME challenge and thus loot shouldn't be awarded for it.
You're right to equate timesinks to a challenge of patience or burden - but we have a name for these "challenges". We call them frustrations, annoyances, or burdens. They aren't fun.
Finally, your good question on how to make enemies harder in an non-FPS (I assume non-twitch period) MMORPG without creating a timesink or an out-of-game barrier like requiring huge raid sizes:
1. Have you ever played Final Fantasy XI? While I hate the game's horrible xp grind and excrutiating travel times, there is content when you get really high level that is exceedingly difficult but that reaps special rewards. There are instanced boss-fights that you enter with only your group and must beat, but doing so yeilds great rewards. If you are above the suggested level of the content, they de-level you to the content's difficulty level, and this includes making gear that is above your level non-functioning. In this way, they are able to create really difficult encounters where players must not only work together with their group but have a strategy and really make it work. As with raid bosses, you can look up strategies on how to beat them, and honestly it isn't that tough if you know what you are doing - but it does provide excitement and rewards that are skill based instead of being completley effortful.
2. Guild Wars has skill-based PvP. The thing with Vanguard is that it uses a "tiers of loot" model and thus will never have players on an even playing field such that these tests of skill are possible. In fact, Guild Wars' PvE game is also extremely difficult if you do not have a group of players who work well together and know how to play. It is also exceedingly easy to access - though difficult to master.
3. Look at every adventure game ever made and their boss fights. While some of them like Megaman are really twitchy, there are other games like the Legend of Zelda where it is imperative to learn HOW to beat a boss. Again, this information will be leaked on the net, but that's okay. Those of us who want challenges will still beat it ourselves.
It's a big problem with MMO design. How do you reward players at end levels through tests of skill with full knowledge that the very natue of the game lends itself towards people cheating and helping each other figure out any puzzles you make. Honestly, I think you just have to design it as if people won't cheat and forget abou the rest. Also, make it difficult even if you know the trick. WoW actually does a really good job of this with many of their endgame raid mobs - but the problem is that you have to raid to get to them. If they made the rewards for the raids that aren't 40-mans just as good as the ones that are 40-man raids then I think people wouldn't have a problem with them.
However, Vanguard is doing this. They have stated very clearly that they will split up the absolute highest tier items among different playstyles so that you literally have to do EVERYTHING to get the best loot. Now they may be tricking us and still requiring raiding by putting all the best weapons only in raiding and then just small or insignificant peices of gear in the solo and crafting portions, but we don't know that. I tend to think that this is the case because without the best loot in the game, most people won't raid. It's a pain and most people would never raid again if not for the loot.
This word "challenge" gets trotted out a lot. So let's put that to the test. Let's see if the Vanbois are really up for a challenge like they claim to be, and if they can play these games without training wheels.
1. Is there open PvP? Because surely someone who wants a challenge would welcome the opportunity to fight an opponent where there is no website to tell you where they are and what their weakness is and how to kill them in 3 easy steps.
Answer: Most Vanguard servers will be PvE only.
2. Can you be powerleveled? Because we know how important it is to Vanbois that the risk be proportionate to the reward ... Can another player cover you in godmode buffs so that you can kill things far above you with little to no risk? Can a high level player outside your group hold your little hand and heal you while you kill things for full xp? Can you just sit in a group and do nothing and soak up the free xp?
Answer: To all four questions is yes.
3. Can you be twinked? Because we know these "elite", "skilled" Vanbois don't want it easy and dumbed down. They want a challenge, so surely would not want to walk around in gear that character didn't earn so that the game goes on easy mode?
Answer: Yes.
4. Can you buy your way through the game, or must you actually defeat foes for good gear?
Answer: Money is a big factor, and the gold sellers (notwitstanding Sigil's faux promise to prevent it) will be doing big business.
5. Will your power be a function of what you can do, or what you are wearing?
Answer: It's, as they call it, an ultra item centric game, so any moron with great gear will be powerful.
The bottom line is, Vanguard players don't really want a challenge and they never have. If you don't believe me, post any of the above things on their website and watch them squeal at the suggestion that their training wheels be taken away.
What Vanguard players want is to have better items than the next guy so they can stand in the newbie yard and be admired because their Dad failed to go to their softball games or whatever it was that instilled this pitiable need for attention. They don't want a challenge. They want to have something and the next guy not have it. That's the whole point of the game for them.
The only "challenge" they are willing to accept is spending an insane amount of time playing the game. It's the same mindet of the guy who sets the world record sitting on a telephone pole for 6 months - a record he holds only because of the shortage of people stupid enough to sit on a telephone pole for six months.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
What Vanguard players want is to have better items than the next guy so they can stand in the newbie yard and be admired because their Dad failed to go to their softball games or whatever it was that instilled this pitiable need for attention.
pure ignorance and flame bait, talk about people wanting attention? go look in the mirror and watch the freaking irony stare you in the face, troll.
Alright, from reading the first 5 or 6 posts i can see people (the antagonist bunch) are miss-using the term "restricted". Of course the game's going to have boundaries, which games don't?? Would you have it so any and all players could write their own game scripts in order to get what they feel they should get out of the game? The concept is simple and there's not much more to it. Sigil are a bunch of gamers who created a great game. Not to nickel and dime you like certain companies *cough cough* but to release their gaming tensions in a way that would satisfy them. and what better way to do that than to make your own mmorpg with your and your partner's ideas incorporated in the game. If you want kickass gear work hard or hope to get lucky. And one more thing to the poster, with all do respect, how can you judge brad and the unreleased game with such precise detail? please let me in on your secrets, us fans are all curious to how the haters get their info on unreleased games.
This brings us back to the word freedom. If gamers want the "challenge" then they won't use those training wheels. Or maybe those training wheels are part of the challenge for some. In either case you seem to truly be anti-Vanguard. So from your frequent sometimes contridictory posts..ie. " the only way to get good gear is to play five hours a day " or wait according to this post maybe you can just buy it ..I can safetly assume we won't be seeing you at launch???
Originally posted by Amathe This word "challenge" gets trotted out a lot. So let's put that to the test. Let's see if the Vanbois are really up for a challenge like they claim to be, and if they can play these games without training wheels. 1. Is there open PvP? Because surely someone who wants a challenge would welcome the opportunity to fight an opponent where there is no website to tell you where they are and what their weakness is and how to kill them in 3 easy steps. Answer: Most Vanguard servers will be PvE only. 2. Can you be powerleveled? Because we know how important it is to Vanbois that the risk be proportionate to the reward ... Can another player cover you in godmode buffs so that you can kill things far above you with little to no risk? Can a high level player outside your group hold your little hand and heal you while you kill things for full xp? Can you just sit in a group and do nothing and soak up the free xp? Answer: To all four questions is yes. 3. Can you be twinked? Because we know these "elite", "skilled" Vanbois don't want it easy and dumbed down. They want a challenge, so surely would not want to walk around in gear that character didn't earn so that the game goes on easy mode? Answer: Yes. 4. Can you buy your way through the game, or must you actually defeat foes for good gear? Answer: Money is a big factor, and the gold sellers (notwitstanding Sigil's faux promise to prevent it) will be doing big business. 5. Will your power be a function of what you can do, or what you are wearing? Answer: It's, as they call it, an ultra item centric game, so any moron with great gear will be powerful. The bottom line is, Vanguard players don't really want a challenge and they never have. If you don't believe me, post any of the above things on their website and watch them squeal at the suggestion that their training wheels be taken away. What Vanguard players want is to have better items than the next guy so they can stand in the newbie yard and be admired because their Dad failed to go to their softball games or whatever it was that instilled this pitiable need for attention. They don't want a challenge. They want to have something and the next guy not have it. That's the whole point of the game for them. The only "challenge" they are willing to accept is spending an insane amount of time playing the game. It's the same mindet of the guy who sets the world record sitting on a telephone pole for 6 months - a record he holds only because of the shortage of people stupid enough to sit on a telephone pole for six months.
This is a brilliant polemic against the hypocracy of the vanboi l33thardcoreraider community.
Originally posted by jonaku This is a brilliant polemic against the hypocracy of the vanboi l33thardcoreraider community. 10/10
yeah , isn't it ironic that most of the things he is ranting about in that post is true in every mmorpg? you would think any post saying anything negative about vanguard is "brilliant" jonaku, even though this gem is just a steaming POS saying absolutely nothing we haven't heard or seen before in every mmorpg.
Originally posted by gestalt11 Its a class based game with only a few sanbox elements. You want freedom play UO or Eve. EQ-style games are purposely highly limiting and quite linear.
Freedom to wander around maybe, not much past that. Welcome cleric #4382 which standard healing spells would you like to use today?
A total lack of class can be perceive as a total lack of freedom, as you can't have specialists.
CoV is a perfect example of how classes should work.
But again, we are talking about Vanguard and it must-raid setting, so in this case, you are right.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by baphamet yeah , isn't it ironic that most of the things he is ranting about in that post is true in every mmorpg? you would think any post saying anything negative about vanguard is "brilliant" jonaku, even though this gem is just a steaming POS saying absolutely nothing we haven't heard or seen before in every mmorpg.
Actually you have a good point here, every game so far released is pretty itemcentric, how about someone breaking the mold? WAR maybe the first to do it, even if you have all the best items, 2 or 3 can bring you down due to the "ganging up rule" in Warhammer. Beware 10 goblins jumping your Godly butt, you may kill 4 or 5, but you will be powned.
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
Originally posted by grinreaper How do any of you knuckle heads know what the end game is going to be like? It isnt even out yet. I was in DAOC beta...You know the class everyone and his pet hamster thought was going to pwn in RvR? Friars!!!! Boy, were we wrong The endgame here could be great, or it could make WoW look grind free...but all you are doing is guessing on the end result.
Haha, that is great. I think you nailed it. Anofalye keeps going around spreading crap about the end game of a game that is in beta which, even if he were in, is restricted to level 30 at this time. He is nothing but a clueless troll spreading misinformation about Vanguard for his on personal jollies.
Originally posted by sebbonx Originally posted by baphamet yeah , isn't it ironic that most of the things he is ranting about in that post is true in every mmorpg? you would think any post saying anything negative about vanguard is "brilliant" jonaku, even though this gem is just a steaming POS saying absolutely nothing we haven't heard or seen before in every mmorpg.
Actually you have a good point here, every game so far released is pretty itemcentric, how about someone breaking the mold? WAR maybe the first to do it, even if you have all the best items, 2 or 3 can bring you down due to the "ganging up rule" in Warhammer. Beware 10 goblins jumping your Godly butt, you may kill 4 or 5, but you will be powned.
are you kidding me? we actually agree on something? i am in total agreement with you here....i would love a good game that isn't item-centric, where you can buy currency online, where you are unable to "twink" a character so badly that anyone with regular gear within your level range stands no chance in pvp.
i just haven't seen a game like that, that interest me yet. i have seen concepts that are good like DFO and i am also keeping a very close eye on warhammer.
but as far as games being released soon there are none, by all means...please make a game that breaks out of this mold. i will be right along side you playing it, until then i will be looking forward to vanguard and WAR since they are the two games that interest me ATM.
Originally posted by sebbonx Originally posted by baphamet
yeah , isn't it ironic that most of the things he is ranting about in that post is true in every mmorpg? you would think any post saying anything negative about vanguard is "brilliant" jonaku, even though this gem is just a steaming POS saying absolutely nothing we haven't heard or seen before in every mmorpg.
Actually you have a good point here, every game so far released is pretty itemcentric, how about someone breaking the mold? WAR maybe the first to do it, even if you have all the best items, 2 or 3 can bring you down due to the "ganging up rule" in Warhammer. Beware 10 goblins jumping your Godly butt, you may kill 4 or 5, but you will be powned.
are you kidding me? we actually agree on something? i am in total agreement with you here....i would love a good game that isn't item-centric, where you can buy currency online, where you are unable to "twink" a character so badly that anyone with regular gear within your level range stands no chance in pvp.
i just haven't seen a game like that, that interest me yet. i have seen concepts that are good like DFO and i am also keeping a very close eye on warhammer.
but as far as games being released soon there are none, by all means...please make a game that breaks out of this mold. i will be right along side you playing it, until then i will be looking forward to vanguard and WAR since they are the two games that interest me ATM.
Sounds more like an MMOFPS to me, but I am really surprised nothing along those lines has been tried yet because I think it could be a hit.
You guys are entirely to hung up on this raid thing.
A word of advice, start looking at some of the OTHER info besides the raids. This gameworld is going to huge and it will be able to accomodate almost any playstyle. If you want to play a left handed basket weaver with one eye, you may have problems, OK?
As for the freedom comment...please, they are talking about within the scope of the game, come off it already. Of course there are going to be limitations. Its common sense.
Originally posted by Amathe In Vanguard's advertisements, they are emphasizing the word "freedom" to market the game. I can sort of understand how they came up with this. There are a lot of professions and classes. It is a zoneless world. But most importantly a lot of the "rules" some people complained of in EQ2 are absent in Vanguard. So it's not complete crap. But as all things with this game, they cannot stick to truths and have to resort to half truths that become outright lies. The ads go on to say how you can fly on a dragon (and similar examples). Now technically this is true. But what the ad doesn't say is you can do these things if, and only if, you spend a zillion hours playing the game and are among the elite few ever to be able to do that. It is wrong to characterize that as freedom. It's like saying you can go to Washington DC and have dinner with the President. Yes, you can, if you are a governor or a congressman or if you donate $50,000 to a political party. So in a technical sense you have the freedom to do this but in any ordinary sense you do not. These things are flat out untrue from the point of view of the average player who purchases the product in reliance on those ads and thinks they will ever really get to do these things. Dragon mounts are for the self styled elite few, and everyone else is just suppoed to keep paying a subscription fee for the privilege of admiring people who have one lol. That's the Vision (tm). This is just another example of my biggest problem with Vanguard. I don't really care how they make the game. Their choices all become considerations for whether I will play it or not, in this case, not. But here we have a game that is one thing that is being marketed as another thing because the first thing isn't very popular. I put these guys in the same category as Mourning. Not that the game is vaporware, because it isn't, but because they have no scruples in what they say about it to get people to buy it. Why don't they just tell the truth? If the game is as good as some of the posters in this forum believe it is, what harm could come to the game from telling the truth about it? I propose that they ad a disclaimer to the box: This game is intended to be enjoyed by people who devote 5 or more hours a day to playing videogames. If you are not such a person you can still play this game, but you will have a very weak character who will only be able to experience a fraction of the game content and will never be able to enjoy many of the game rewards. So I ask you, why run from the truth if the game is so good? Why put out ads touting freedom that is 95% illusory? Unless by freedom they mean in a Janice Joplin sense, where "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
Im reading this post and at first I thought to write an angry comment... but as I read more I begin to understand that some people just have no grasp on reality... I mean, cmon, dining with a president for a 50000$, and you are calling it unfair? The whole point of reward the effort is to ... reward your effort. If there was no reward for the amount of effort, then ANY effort is pointless. If there was no effort to get a reward, then the reward would be pointless.
Whats the point of dining with a president if anyone, including your Chihuahua pet could get a dining appointment with the big man? Thats the whole point of MMOs - reward the effort. What the OP is saying goes pretty much against everything MMOs stand for. I am personaly more or less a carebear, but this is .. ultra hardcore carebear.
If this game had things you complain about, then everyone would have dragon mounts at level 3, would have top gear at level 5, would be able to solo toughest NPC mob by level 10. To compare this to real life, we would have the whole population of <insert your country name here> driving mercedes, working as a lawyer, having no worries with money. Sounds good? Well, whos gonna work the mines, the bakeries, the factories etc? You cant just snap your fingers and get all the cookies.
Im a casual player, and if I am able to get to top level, get the best items, get a dragon pet within a month, be able to solo toughest NPC mobs then id quit this game in no time. I expect to fight to get the cookies, not to be handed them over on a golden plate.
Sorry for the rant. Hope you understand where im getting to.
Originally posted by n2sooners Sounds more like an MMOFPS to me, but I am really surprised nothing along those lines has been tried yet because I think it could be a hit.
possibly yeah, like the darkfall concept....it can still be a fantasy setting with twitch style combat. a game where crafting and pvp is the only way to get gear....and if you lose your gear it is easily replaceable.
i think there is a reason why we don't have a game like that yet, i don't think it would be easy to make a game like darkfall even for a huge established company like soe or blizzard.
witch is why i think darkfall may never be released and even if it is it probably wont be anywhere near as good as it potentially could be, at least not for a while after release where they can fix it with subscription revenues.
"only few that plays enough can get a flying mount"
What the heck is your point? If you dont like it, dont play it.
But you admire this game, otherwise you wouldent make a post like this, are you mad cause you can only play 2h one day? So then you just have to play longer to get to your point, which seems to be highest lvl and most powerfull.
I've been around for a long time in gaming, DUDE??!?!?!?!?!? go to bed and stop crying.
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
Originally posted by Amathe Answer: Most Vanguard servers will be PvE only.
Yes, most. Just like WoW, and basically every level based MMORPG ever.
Also, you have no idea whether higher level characters buffs will stick to lowbie characters in the release version, unless you're psychic. You also have no clue as to whether a higher level player can heal you without stealing exp. Also, name one game where you can't sit in a group within xp range and leech exp.
Name one non-twitch game where gear is a non-factor.
Vanguard players definitely do want a challenge, that's a big issue with them and you won't be able to solo your way to level 60 to be sure. Playing in a good group to defeat powerful enemies IS a challenge. Have you ever tried a pickup group in a game you can't solo in? It's a crapshoot at the best of times and you know it. That's a challenge.
Keep on trying though Amathe. I have fun responding to and debunking your posts, but just like my desire to play Vanguard, I hope you will try and make it more challenging.
BTW, what is the source of your pitiable need for attention?
Originally posted by Amathe In Vanguard's advertisements, they are emphasizing the word "freedom" to market the game. I can sort of understand how they came up with this. There are a lot of professions and classes. It is a zoneless world. But most importantly a lot of the "rules" some people complained of in EQ2 are absent in Vanguard. So it's not complete crap. But as all things with this game, they cannot stick to truths and have to resort to half truths that become outright lies. The ads go on to say how you can fly on a dragon (and similar examples). Now technically this is true. But what the ad doesn't say is you can do these things if, and only if, you spend a zillion hours playing the game and are among the elite few ever to be able to do that. It is wrong to characterize that as freedom. It's like saying you can go to Washington DC and have dinner with the President. Yes, you can, if you are a governor or a congressman or if you donate $50,000 to a political party. So in a technical sense you have the freedom to do this but in any ordinary sense you do not. These things are flat out untrue from the point of view of the average player who purchases the product in reliance on those ads and thinks they will ever really get to do these things. Dragon mounts are for the self styled elite few, and everyone else is just suppoed to keep paying a subscription fee for the privilege of admiring people who have one lol. That's the Vision (tm). This is just another example of my biggest problem with Vanguard. I don't really care how they make the game. Their choices all become considerations for whether I will play it or not, in this case, not. But here we have a game that is one thing that is being marketed as another thing because the first thing isn't very popular. I put these guys in the same category as Mourning. Not that the game is vaporware, because it isn't, but because they have no scruples in what they say about it to get people to buy it. Why don't they just tell the truth? If the game is as good as some of the posters in this forum believe it is, what harm could come to the game from telling the truth about it? I propose that they ad a disclaimer to the box: This game is intended to be enjoyed by people who devote 5 or more hours a day to playing videogames. If you are not such a person you can still play this game, but you will have a very weak character who will only be able to experience a fraction of the game content and will never be able to enjoy many of the game rewards. So I ask you, why run from the truth if the game is so good? Why put out ads touting freedom that is 95% illusory? Unless by freedom they mean in a Janice Joplin sense, where "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
If you dont want to look i brought up a few quotes from the FAQ
"To bring back to the genre a challenging and rewarding environment -- removing tedium and frustration (which we certainly aim to do) does not mean a game necessarily has to be easy."
"In short, we want our game to be challenging. Our focus on character advancement, item acquisition, and interdependence to build community and teamwork."
"One of our big goals is bring back the challenge we feel is being abandoned in MMOGs as of late, but without the tedium. We want travel to be fun. We want exploration to be key and for you feel compelled and then rewarded for exploring and traveling"
"We will have areas that are more geared for one of these categories: casual, group, and raid. The casual areas will require less of a contiguous time commitment and you won't need a full group. The grouping areas, well, require you to group. Think classic, old school grouping. Then the raid areas, well that's pretty obvious"
"Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in casual areas vs. group areas. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region."
"Basically, we want to remove as much tedium and barriers to entry as possible. But, and this is key, we strongly feel this is NOT mutually exclusive with making a darn hard and challenging game. Battles will be tough. NPC AI will be smart. Lots of group tactics will be used, with even more collaboration then you've probably seen before, and an even more visceral feel."
"Anyway, tough, yes. Rewarding, yes. Challenging, yes. Tedious, hopefully no. Camping, minimized the best we can. Travel, fun and dangerous in and of itself. Needing to group and work with others to really advance optimally and get the phat lewtz, yes."
I agree with what your saying, but i mean most people that are into mmorpgs probably go onto the internet and research about it. There are people who do just see the ad and go out and buy it b/c it looks so great. Yea they may be dissapointed but usually you would do your research about the game before you buy it.
Originally posted by Delzo Originally posted by Amathe
But what you don't realize is that fact, the very point you make, is one of the primary things that powergamers hate about other mmos. It's not enough that they have nice things. It's not enough that they got them before you did. They want to have something and you not have it. Brad is very in tune with this sentiment. He knows there are a lot of frustrated hardcore gamers out there who are tired of getting a reward, only to see Joe Lunchpail gamer get it too, albeit much later. That is the very beating heart of the Vision and the overarching game design - hardcore players will have things and you will not have them; not now, not ever.
LOL. Guess what, if these "hardcore gamers" don't want me to have stuff, that's their problem. I will make a good attempt and if I don't get some piece of loot, I won't cry over it. It's all about the experience and time with friends, not being uber or l33t. Maybe it is to them, but not me. I play to have fun.
You seem very concerned with what you believe is a lack of freedom. Know what? If they can do it, anyone can. That's freedom. Nobody ever said you get a dragon at level 5. If you did, it would mean another easy game that gave everything away. Level cap in two weeks and everyone has the epic loot. If that happened, I wouldn't play. I want a challenge, even if it's one that I never overcome.
That is why I posted. If you are one of these people who think that "well, it may take me longer but I will get there and have the nice items someday, I just need to stick with it", you are in for a rude awakening. Your presence in the game is to pay for the game so the players Brad relates to can enjoy it. That's it.If you play the game and feel like you are footing the bill for the l33t crowd, that's how you feel. I, on the other hand, will have fun and not stress over whether or not I'm keeping up with the Jones'. If putting in a million hours and tons of gold for an uber chest piece makes them feel elite, ok, good for them. I'm not stressing over it.
There's another thing you are forgetting. Friends and community. Even if there's not one more thing for me to do, I can always get together with friends and make our own fun, travel, explore, hang out, whatever.
There are so many easy MMO games out right now, with more on the way, that I'm glad someone had the gazoonas enough to put out a challenging game, even if it means missing out on the mainstream WoW crowd. Too many developers are fighting for those customers and I believe that Sigil will actually have a larger market going this way than if they joined the fray and chased WoW with everyone else.
My response above in red. This is my opinion and I take nothing away from you, or your opinion. You are entitled to it.
Thats how i feel too. As long as it keeps me and my friends playing and that we have fun, it's good enough.
1. Have you ever played Final Fantasy XI? While I hate the game's horrible xp grind and excrutiating travel times, there is content when you get really high level that is exceedingly difficult but that reaps special rewards. There are instanced boss-fights that you enter with only your group and must beat, but doing so yeilds great rewards. If you are above the suggested level of the content, they de-level you to the content's difficulty level, and this includes making gear that is above your level non-functioning. In this way, they are able to create really difficult encounters where players must not only work together with their group but have a strategy and really make it work. As with raid bosses, you can look up strategies on how to beat them, and honestly it isn't that tough if you know what you are doing - but it does provide excitement and rewards that are skill based instead of being completley effortful.
I love that idea and think it's just really kewl, but difficulty is a timesink. Takes you more tries, more gear, more shots at forming a sweet group. However, I'm not afraid of a timesink, especially a difficulty one. I revel in a challenge, and the higher the difficulty, the greater my resolve to accomplish said task.
2. Guild Wars has skill-based PvP. The thing with Vanguard is that it uses a "tiers of loot" model and thus will never have players on an even playing field such that these tests of skill are possible. In fact, Guild Wars' PvE game is also extremely difficult if you do not have a group of players who work well together and know how to play. It is also exceedingly easy to access - though difficult to master.
Very true, although I would hasten to add that part of the thrill with an item-centric combat model is the actual obtaining of the loot. Getting an amazing drop on a PVP server is a crown of honor. Although I'm a huge fan of full corpse looting in PVP. Please Sigil have the nads to make one server like that! I doubt it highly but it's still my wish.
3. Look at every adventure game ever made and their boss fights. While some of them like Megaman are really twitchy, there are other games like the Legend of Zelda where it is imperative to learn HOW to beat a boss. Again, this information will be leaked on the net, but that's okay. Those of us who want challenges will still beat it ourselves.
Love that stuff, even though learning a boss' tactics is still just a time sink. Takes time to learn it. In fact, the argument can be made that any type of extra difficulty is a time sink.
It's a big problem with MMO design. How do you reward players at end levels through tests of skill with full knowledge that the very natue of the game lends itself towards people cheating and helping each other figure out any puzzles you make. Honestly, I think you just have to design it as if people won't cheat and forget abou the rest. Also, make it difficult even if you know the trick. WoW actually does a really good job of this with many of their endgame raid mobs - but the problem is that you have to raid to get to them. If they made the rewards for the raids that aren't 40-mans just as good as the ones that are 40-man raids then I think people wouldn't have a problem with them.
This is the age old risk vs. reward argument. A case can be made for either side, but for a boss to be difficult he has to hit harder, have better tactics or more hp. Sometimes it takes 40 or more people to take out a super bad boy boss. Imagine 200+ person chaotic raids lol now that would be insane. I am not a fan of 8 hour raids, in fact I loathe them, but a 4 hour or under raid to do something really amazing I don't mind.
However, Vanguard is doing this. They have stated very clearly that they will split up the absolute highest tier items among different playstyles so that you literally have to do EVERYTHING to get the best loot. Now they may be tricking us and still requiring raiding by putting all the best weapons only in raiding and then just small or insignificant peices of gear in the solo and crafting portions, but we don't know that. I tend to think that this is the case because without the best loot in the game, most people won't raid. It's a pain and most people would never raid again if not for the loot.
Exactly. Why do people raid? Not because it's fun to crawl through a dungeon for 6 hours, but because of the fantastic loot and the thrill of the drop. I like how Vanguard is splitting the content up. Mostly for grouping which is great for me because I love a good group. I like soloing about 10% of the time, say if I don't have much time to play. But if you want to play a game that is 100% soloable, why bother playing a massively multiplayer game in the first place?
Originally posted by Torak A word of advice, start looking at some of the OTHER info besides the raids. This gameworld is going to huge and it will be able to accomodate almost any playstyle. As for the freedom comment...please, they are talking about within the scope of the game, come off it already. Of course there are going to be limitations. Its common sense.
Well, there is no freedom. You HAVE to raid, to tradeskill and to commit to EVERY aspect they want to enforce. Huge mean nothing if you HAVE to be doing everything, been a generalist that master everything, yet you have a class and are by definition a specialist. Asking specialists to be generalists, that Raid, Tradeskill, do the diplomacy stuff, get that, go there...that is ENFORCING, a total lack of freedom.
Aradune usually focus on words his project lack. Lack of Freedom is more precise then freedom. FREEDOM would be to have the choice to either PvP, or to Raid, or to Tradeskill, or to group in a LDoN-way in order to gain exactly the same reward, now THAT would be freedom...but since every item is linked to a PRECISE and rigid activity, it is a complete LACK of freedom.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Comments
Raids aren't hard for seasoned veterans, but they are impossible with people who don't know how to play their class. Raids are only easy when you're playing with non-spastic people who know how to play.
Difficulty is a relative term. Saying that timesinks are not a challenge is non-sequiter. Smacking your head against a wall for 5 hours instead of 5 minutes is more difficult, unless you are daft.
How do you make enemies harder? You can only go so far with enemy A.I. in a non-fps mmorpg. Let's here some ideas you have about making mobs and progression more difficult in a non-FPS MMORPG without simply making it some sort of time-sink.
/tap's foot
The second obstacle - getting enough people - was a challenge - but an OUT OF GAME challenge and thus loot shouldn't be awarded for it.
You're right to equate timesinks to a challenge of patience or burden - but we have a name for these "challenges". We call them frustrations, annoyances, or burdens. They aren't fun.
Finally, your good question on how to make enemies harder in an non-FPS (I assume non-twitch period) MMORPG without creating a timesink or an out-of-game barrier like requiring huge raid sizes:
1. Have you ever played Final Fantasy XI? While I hate the game's horrible xp grind and excrutiating travel times, there is content when you get really high level that is exceedingly difficult but that reaps special rewards. There are instanced boss-fights that you enter with only your group and must beat, but doing so yeilds great rewards. If you are above the suggested level of the content, they de-level you to the content's difficulty level, and this includes making gear that is above your level non-functioning. In this way, they are able to create really difficult encounters where players must not only work together with their group but have a strategy and really make it work. As with raid bosses, you can look up strategies on how to beat them, and honestly it isn't that tough if you know what you are doing - but it does provide excitement and rewards that are skill based instead of being completley effortful.
2. Guild Wars has skill-based PvP. The thing with Vanguard is that it uses a "tiers of loot" model and thus will never have players on an even playing field such that these tests of skill are possible. In fact, Guild Wars' PvE game is also extremely difficult if you do not have a group of players who work well together and know how to play. It is also exceedingly easy to access - though difficult to master.
3. Look at every adventure game ever made and their boss fights. While some of them like Megaman are really twitchy, there are other games like the Legend of Zelda where it is imperative to learn HOW to beat a boss. Again, this information will be leaked on the net, but that's okay. Those of us who want challenges will still beat it ourselves.
It's a big problem with MMO design. How do you reward players at end levels through tests of skill with full knowledge that the very natue of the game lends itself towards people cheating and helping each other figure out any puzzles you make. Honestly, I think you just have to design it as if people won't cheat and forget abou the rest. Also, make it difficult even if you know the trick. WoW actually does a really good job of this with many of their endgame raid mobs - but the problem is that you have to raid to get to them. If they made the rewards for the raids that aren't 40-mans just as good as the ones that are 40-man raids then I think people wouldn't have a problem with them.
However, Vanguard is doing this. They have stated very clearly that they will split up the absolute highest tier items among different playstyles so that you literally have to do EVERYTHING to get the best loot. Now they may be tricking us and still requiring raiding by putting all the best weapons only in raiding and then just small or insignificant peices of gear in the solo and crafting portions, but we don't know that. I tend to think that this is the case because without the best loot in the game, most people won't raid. It's a pain and most people would never raid again if not for the loot.
This word "challenge" gets trotted out a lot. So let's put that to the test. Let's see if the Vanbois are really up for a challenge like they claim to be, and if they can play these games without training wheels.
1. Is there open PvP? Because surely someone who wants a challenge would welcome the opportunity to fight an opponent where there is no website to tell you where they are and what their weakness is and how to kill them in 3 easy steps.
Answer: Most Vanguard servers will be PvE only.
2. Can you be powerleveled? Because we know how important it is to Vanbois that the risk be proportionate to the reward ... Can another player cover you in godmode buffs so that you can kill things far above you with little to no risk? Can a high level player outside your group hold your little hand and heal you while you kill things for full xp? Can you just sit in a group and do nothing and soak up the free xp?
Answer: To all four questions is yes.
3. Can you be twinked? Because we know these "elite", "skilled" Vanbois don't want it easy and dumbed down. They want a challenge, so surely would not want to walk around in gear that character didn't earn so that the game goes on easy mode?
Answer: Yes.
4. Can you buy your way through the game, or must you actually defeat foes for good gear?
Answer: Money is a big factor, and the gold sellers (notwitstanding Sigil's faux promise to prevent it) will be doing big business.
5. Will your power be a function of what you can do, or what you are wearing?
Answer: It's, as they call it, an ultra item centric game, so any moron with great gear will be powerful.
The bottom line is, Vanguard players don't really want a challenge and they never have. If you don't believe me, post any of the above things on their website and watch them squeal at the suggestion that their training wheels be taken away.
What Vanguard players want is to have better items than the next guy so they can stand in the newbie yard and be admired because their Dad failed to go to their softball games or whatever it was that instilled this pitiable need for attention. They don't want a challenge. They want to have something and the next guy not have it. That's the whole point of the game for them.
The only "challenge" they are willing to accept is spending an insane amount of time playing the game. It's the same mindet of the guy who sets the world record sitting on a telephone pole for 6 months - a record he holds only because of the shortage of people stupid enough to sit on a telephone pole for six months.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
pure ignorance and flame bait, talk about people wanting attention? go look in the mirror and watch the freaking irony stare you in the face, troll.
Alright, from reading the first 5 or 6 posts i can see people (the antagonist bunch) are miss-using the term "restricted". Of course the game's going to have boundaries, which games don't?? Would you have it so any and all players could write their own game scripts in order to get what they feel they should get out of the game? The concept is simple and there's not much more to it. Sigil are a bunch of gamers who created a great game. Not to nickel and dime you like certain companies *cough cough* but to release their gaming tensions in a way that would satisfy them. and what better way to do that than to make your own mmorpg with your and your partner's ideas incorporated in the game. If you want kickass gear work hard or hope to get lucky. And one more thing to the poster, with all do respect, how can you judge brad and the unreleased game with such precise detail? please let me in on your secrets, us fans are all curious to how the haters get their info on unreleased games.
This brings us back to the word freedom. If gamers want the "challenge" then they won't use those training wheels. Or maybe those training wheels are part of the challenge for some. In either case you seem to truly be anti-Vanguard. So from your frequent sometimes contridictory posts..ie. " the only way to get good gear is to play five hours a day " or wait according to this post maybe you can just buy it ..I can safetly assume we won't be seeing you at launch???
This is a brilliant polemic against the hypocracy of the vanboi l33thardcoreraider community.
10/10
yeah , isn't it ironic that most of the things he is ranting about in that post is true in every mmorpg? you would think any post saying anything negative about vanguard is "brilliant" jonaku, even though this gem is just a steaming POS saying absolutely nothing we haven't heard or seen before in every mmorpg.
A total lack of class can be perceive as a total lack of freedom, as you can't have specialists.
CoV is a perfect example of how classes should work.
But again, we are talking about Vanguard and it must-raid setting, so in this case, you are right.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
How do any of you knuckle heads know what the end game is going to be like? It isnt even out yet.
I was in DAOC beta...You know the class everyone and his pet hamster thought was going to pwn in RvR? Friars!!!! Boy, were we wrong
The endgame here could be great, or it could make WoW look grind free...but all you are doing is guessing on the end result.
Actually you have a good point here, every game so far released is pretty itemcentric, how about someone breaking the mold? WAR maybe the first to do it, even if you have all the best items, 2 or 3 can bring you down due to the "ganging up rule" in Warhammer. Beware 10 goblins jumping your Godly butt, you may kill 4 or 5, but you will be powned.
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
Actually you have a good point here, every game so far released is pretty itemcentric, how about someone breaking the mold? WAR maybe the first to do it, even if you have all the best items, 2 or 3 can bring you down due to the "ganging up rule" in Warhammer. Beware 10 goblins jumping your Godly butt, you may kill 4 or 5, but you will be powned.
i just haven't seen a game like that, that interest me yet. i have seen concepts that are good like DFO and i am also keeping a very close eye on warhammer.
but as far as games being released soon there are none, by all means...please make a game that breaks out of this mold. i will be right along side you playing it, until then i will be looking forward to vanguard and WAR since they are the two games that interest me ATM.
Actually you have a good point here, every game so far released is pretty itemcentric, how about someone breaking the mold? WAR maybe the first to do it, even if you have all the best items, 2 or 3 can bring you down due to the "ganging up rule" in Warhammer. Beware 10 goblins jumping your Godly butt, you may kill 4 or 5, but you will be powned.
i just haven't seen a game like that, that interest me yet. i have seen concepts that are good like DFO and i am also keeping a very close eye on warhammer.
but as far as games being released soon there are none, by all means...please make a game that breaks out of this mold. i will be right along side you playing it, until then i will be looking forward to vanguard and WAR since they are the two games that interest me ATM.
Sounds more like an MMOFPS to me, but I am really surprised nothing along those lines has been tried yet because I think it could be a hit.
You guys are entirely to hung up on this raid thing.
A word of advice, start looking at some of the OTHER info besides the raids. This gameworld is going to huge and it will be able to accomodate almost any playstyle. If you want to play a left handed basket weaver with one eye, you may have problems, OK?
As for the freedom comment...please, they are talking about within the scope of the game, come off it already. Of course there are going to be limitations. Its common sense.
Whats the point of dining with a president if anyone, including your Chihuahua pet could get a dining appointment with the big man? Thats the whole point of MMOs - reward the effort. What the OP is saying goes pretty much against everything MMOs stand for. I am personaly more or less a carebear, but this is .. ultra hardcore carebear.
If this game had things you complain about, then everyone would have dragon mounts at level 3, would have top gear at level 5, would be able to solo toughest NPC mob by level 10. To compare this to real life, we would have the whole population of <insert your country name here> driving mercedes, working as a lawyer, having no worries with money. Sounds good? Well, whos gonna work the mines, the bakeries, the factories etc? You cant just snap your fingers and get all the cookies.
Im a casual player, and if I am able to get to top level, get the best items, get a dragon pet within a month, be able to solo toughest NPC mobs then id quit this game in no time. I expect to fight to get the cookies, not to be handed them over on a golden plate.
Sorry for the rant. Hope you understand where im getting to.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
possibly yeah, like the darkfall concept....it can still be a fantasy setting with twitch style combat. a game where crafting and pvp is the only way to get gear....and if you lose your gear it is easily replaceable.
i think there is a reason why we don't have a game like that yet, i don't think it would be easy to make a game like darkfall even for a huge established company like soe or blizzard.
witch is why i think darkfall may never be released and even if it is it probably wont be anywhere near as good as it potentially could be, at least not for a while after release where they can fix it with subscription revenues.
"only few that plays enough can get a flying mount"
What the heck is your point? If you dont like it, dont play it.
But you admire this game, otherwise you wouldent make a post like this, are you mad cause you can only play 2h one day? So then you just have to play longer to get to your point, which seems to be highest lvl and most powerfull.
I've been around for a long time in gaming, DUDE??!?!?!?!?!? go to bed and stop crying.
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
Yes, most. Just like WoW, and basically every level based MMORPG ever.
Also, you have no idea whether higher level characters buffs will stick to lowbie characters in the release version, unless you're psychic. You also have no clue as to whether a higher level player can heal you without stealing exp. Also, name one game where you can't sit in a group within xp range and leech exp.
Name one non-twitch game where gear is a non-factor.
Vanguard players definitely do want a challenge, that's a big issue with them and you won't be able to solo your way to level 60 to be sure. Playing in a good group to defeat powerful enemies IS a challenge. Have you ever tried a pickup group in a game you can't solo in? It's a crapshoot at the best of times and you know it. That's a challenge.
Keep on trying though Amathe. I have fun responding to and debunking your posts, but just like my desire to play Vanguard, I hope you will try and make it more challenging.
BTW, what is the source of your pitiable need for attention?
First...please read the FAQ and read about the game- http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php
If you dont want to look i brought up a few quotes from the FAQ
"To bring back to the genre a challenging and rewarding environment -- removing tedium and frustration (which we certainly aim to do) does not mean a game necessarily has to be easy."
"One of our big goals is bring back the challenge we feel is being abandoned in MMOGs as of late, but without the tedium. We want travel to be fun. We want exploration to be key and for you feel compelled and then rewarded for exploring and traveling"
"We will have areas that are more geared for one of these categories: casual, group, and raid. The casual areas will require less of a contiguous time commitment and you won't need a full group. The grouping areas, well, require you to group. Think classic, old school grouping. Then the raid areas, well that's pretty obvious"
"Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in casual areas vs. group areas. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region."
"Basically, we want to remove as much tedium and barriers to entry as possible. But, and this is key, we strongly feel this is NOT mutually exclusive with making a darn hard and challenging game. Battles will be tough. NPC AI will be smart. Lots of group tactics will be used, with even more collaboration then you've probably seen before, and an even more visceral feel."
"Anyway, tough, yes. Rewarding, yes. Challenging, yes. Tedious, hopefully no. Camping, minimized the best we can. Travel, fun and dangerous in and of itself. Needing to group and work with others to really advance optimally and get the phat lewtz, yes."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree with what your saying, but i mean most people that are into mmorpgs probably go onto the internet and research about it. There are people who do just see the ad and go out and buy it b/c it looks so great. Yea they may be dissapointed but usually you would do your research about the game before you buy it.
~Jak
But what you don't realize is that fact, the very point you make, is one of the primary things that powergamers hate about other mmos. It's not enough that they have nice things. It's not enough that they got them before you did. They want to have something and you not have it. Brad is very in tune with this sentiment. He knows there are a lot of frustrated hardcore gamers out there who are tired of getting a reward, only to see Joe Lunchpail gamer get it too, albeit much later. That is the very beating heart of the Vision and the overarching game design - hardcore players will have things and you will not have them; not now, not ever.
LOL. Guess what, if these "hardcore gamers" don't want me to have stuff, that's their problem. I will make a good attempt and if I don't get some piece of loot, I won't cry over it. It's all about the experience and time with friends, not being uber or l33t. Maybe it is to them, but not me. I play to have fun.You seem very concerned with what you believe is a lack of freedom. Know what? If they can do it, anyone can. That's freedom. Nobody ever said you get a dragon at level 5. If you did, it would mean another easy game that gave everything away. Level cap in two weeks and everyone has the epic loot. If that happened, I wouldn't play. I want a challenge, even if it's one that I never overcome.
That is why I posted. If you are one of these people who think that "well, it may take me longer but I will get there and have the nice items someday, I just need to stick with it", you are in for a rude awakening. Your presence in the game is to pay for the game so the players Brad relates to can enjoy it. That's it.If you play the game and feel
like you are footing the bill for the l33t crowd, that's how you feel.
I, on the other hand, will have fun and not stress over whether or not
I'm keeping up with the Jones'. If putting in a million hours and tons
of gold for an uber chest piece makes them feel elite, ok, good for
them. I'm not stressing over it.
There's another thing you are forgetting. Friends and community. Even if there's not one more thing for me to do, I can always get together with friends and make our own fun, travel, explore, hang out, whatever.
There are so many easy MMO games out right now, with more on the way, that I'm glad someone had the gazoonas enough to put out a challenging game, even if it means missing out on the mainstream WoW crowd. Too many developers are fighting for those customers and I believe that Sigil will actually have a larger market going this way than if they joined the fray and chased WoW with everyone else.
My response above in red. This is my opinion and I take nothing away from you, or your opinion. You are entitled to it.
Thats how i feel too. As long as it keeps me and my friends playing and that we have fun, it's good enough.
eqnext.wikia.com
Well, there is no freedom. You HAVE to raid, to tradeskill and to commit to EVERY aspect they want to enforce. Huge mean nothing if you HAVE to be doing everything, been a generalist that master everything, yet you have a class and are by definition a specialist. Asking specialists to be generalists, that Raid, Tradeskill, do the diplomacy stuff, get that, go there...that is ENFORCING, a total lack of freedom.
Aradune usually focus on words his project lack. Lack of Freedom is more precise then freedom. FREEDOM would be to have the choice to either PvP, or to Raid, or to Tradeskill, or to group in a LDoN-way in order to gain exactly the same reward, now THAT would be freedom...but since every item is linked to a PRECISE and rigid activity, it is a complete LACK of freedom.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren