Uh... before release delays are fine, they should put out a quality product. MMOs had a tendancy to be released half-arsed and spend the next like.. year.. developing it to where it should have been at release. Guild Wars and WoW were both pretty polished though, so hopefully that trend is broken.
As for after the game goes live, horribly delayed content sucks.. same with horribly delayed bug fixes. Blizzard has adopted a practice of never even giving ETAs. They don't think their own players can handle it, so they don't tell the players much of anything. Now whatever, that's a horrible policy, but it's not a huge deal since from my experience Blizzard -does- fix bugs in a timely fashion, but I hope the rest of the game companies who can't fix bugs in a timely fashion don't look at Blizzard and adopt the closed mouth policy. Communication with subscribers is a big deal. Look at auto-assault, they had a horrible time releasing even the first patch.. and they used to clam up big time with not so much as a single post on their forums. When that happens nobody has any idea what's going on, and they start to wonder why they are paying monthly for a seemingly abandoned game.
Originally posted by havocthefirs I'm a designer for a small automated equipment company, last year we had 2 systems to build both worth roughly a quarter million dollars each, towards this time last year everyone in the place worked 12 hour days 7 days a week for 3 months in order to finish on time. Since we're all on salary we were none to happy about it but we did what had to be done, admitedly I walked around like a zombie uttering 3 words, work, eat, sleep.
That's a sign that your management is either grossly incompetent or completely abusive of employees, either way that's a company I'd run away from ASAP. Why would I want to spend 3 months living only for a job? Unless I'm going to get enough money to retire afterwards (which I doubt, since they're wanting 12-hour days from salaried people), it's just not worth it.
My solution is simple, kick the cash cow where it hurts the most. All money will be refunded if the product is late or less than promised. If they promise say, 50 crafting skills and there are 2 thats a breech of contract, if it was promised in november and is late thats a breech of contract and all preorders will be refunded but also allowed to keep the game to play. Beta players will also be repatriated the price of a preorder because your doing them a favour, in essence working for them. If this sounds harsh keep in mind these are the same penalties every other industry faces. Uncle sam needs to step up to the plate and regulate this industry from ripping off the consumer.
"Every other industry"? Like all of the other software industries, known for the same thing? Or book publishing, where people often laugh about how long it takes an author to finish a series? Or the movie industry?
Plus, who's getting ripped off? If you CHOOSE to preorder a game, then you're not getting ripped off if you get exactly what the person you're preordering from promised you. If you CHOOSE to beta test a game, then you're not getting ripped off when you get to play it for free and learn about it before everyone else. I think it's better to treat people as adults than to try to get uncle sam to give you your toys for free.
It's especially silly since most software companies don't actually promise the game at a specific time; they have a projected release date, but 'we think it will be released in November' is very different than 'we promise to release the game in November'. Most software companies don't promise anything specific like '50 crafting skills', they talk about something like a 'dynamic and flexible skill system'. All they'd need to do to avoid your regulations is to make sure never to guarantee a game at a specific date (Blizzard already goes one step further, they don't discuss release dates until the game is ready to ship), and either be careful with any specific promises like '50 crafting skills' or make a note to be sure that there are 50 crafting skills in the shipped game even if 48 of them are pathetic.
Originally posted by simplescreen working over time have to be payed. it's not your problem that your boss had made a promise for which his employees have to pay.
That mostly depend on the employee contract and on his option to get a better job if he left his current job. Some peoples are not paid for doing overtime and they will never be able to justify it...
IndustrieS are different and complex, models are not all the same...I know that myself I would not do unpaid overtime in most jobs, but again, it depend on the job, on the context, on the situation.
See, the highschool teachers, many of them do a LOT of overtime that isn't even recognize, they really won't ever get paid for that. A highschool teacher may work 35 hours in a week or 80 hours, same salary, and worst thing is...most peoples won't even admit and recognize that they work 80 hours...and that is only 1 example of unpaid overtime.
And some nature of the overtime work can be debated...see, let's suppose it 4 AM, Brad McQuaid come here and explain to me, again, why Vanguard is a next gen MMO and take time to give me examples. Is that overtime? Or isn't it? It isn't paid for sure! And what if at 6 AM, after a long 2 hours of sleep, he wake up, thinking about what I said on some other aspect and find a kick ass solution for some design in his game? Now, does that qualify as overtime? It is still not been paid for. And peoples like me, trying to "improve" MMOs in general, this is as community work, for free, out of kindness. Shouldn't overtime by other peoples be considered like community work? And it isn't recognize and neither do I care, I will still come and talk and argue...
All this is in the eye of the beholder...it depend on your perception of things. You can't stop peoples from giving their time, it wouldn't respect the free speech nor be democratic to do so...overtime can come from both side, and when it come from the individual side and not the company, you can't charge for it, but when the company expect it, it might be problematic, except for teachers of course, which we expect to be devoted and doing it...See, let's talk about Simultronic, the makers of heroes journey...all their designers are doing it in their free time, not been paid for, and this is okay with me...yet at the same time, they expect it, they expect some strong commitment, now this start been problematic, because your staff is unpaid and you commit them, without offering them the back up...see if a staff member can't keep up to his promise, can they sue him? I mean, it is FREE, so they in theory could sue for what they offer...in the same time, it might harm them, hurt them...and we can't just go with the "laws and the judges", these are the last recourse, they might not be right on the ethic level and we all know that...I honestly did consider helping HJ...yet when I see what they need and request...I feel they where asking a LOT, so I walk away. I could have written them a Game Design which I believe would be awesome, about the mechanics and how stuff should work, leveling up and everything, this is kinda a driving goal for me, like the leveling, the powers, everything silly that most peoples more or less like, the "balancing"(not in a PvP ways)...yet, I know they have peoples who accept that and do it...they aren't paid...and they certainly won't be paid for overtime...and yet they have deadlines and commitment, now I have no idea if they are enforcing these as it freak me out at that point. I can tell you that I send GD doc to the companies I like the most when they never ask for these, what they do with them is up to them, they can delete them or use them, it is a gift...
(however, if they have an auto-answer saying they delete stuff, they should precise it if they didn't delete, because I will assume they delete and feel free to "give" to another company who didn't delete, *wink wink*)
Again, everything is in the eye of the beholder.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Unless you have been in the industry it is easy to critique another thing so easily. I can only imagine how pressuring it can be to some people in the industry. IMO delays are something to expect.
Comments
As for after the game goes live, horribly delayed content sucks.. same with horribly delayed bug fixes. Blizzard has adopted a practice of never even giving ETAs. They don't think their own players can handle it, so they don't tell the players much of anything. Now whatever, that's a horrible policy, but it's not a huge deal since from my experience Blizzard -does- fix bugs in a timely fashion, but I hope the rest of the game companies who can't fix bugs in a timely fashion don't look at Blizzard and adopt the closed mouth policy. Communication with subscribers is a big deal. Look at auto-assault, they had a horrible time releasing even the first patch.. and they used to clam up big time with not so much as a single post on their forums. When that happens nobody has any idea what's going on, and they start to wonder why they are paying monthly for a seemingly abandoned game.
That's a sign that your management is either grossly incompetent or completely abusive of employees, either way that's a company I'd run away from ASAP. Why would I want to spend 3 months living only for a job? Unless I'm going to get enough money to retire afterwards (which I doubt, since they're wanting 12-hour days from salaried people), it's just not worth it.
"Every other industry"? Like all of the other software industries, known for the same thing? Or book publishing, where people often laugh about how long it takes an author to finish a series? Or the movie industry?
Plus, who's getting ripped off? If you CHOOSE to preorder a game, then you're not getting ripped off if you get exactly what the person you're preordering from promised you. If you CHOOSE to beta test a game, then you're not getting ripped off when you get to play it for free and learn about it before everyone else. I think it's better to treat people as adults than to try to get uncle sam to give you your toys for free.
It's especially silly since most software companies don't actually promise the game at a specific time; they have a projected release date, but 'we think it will be released in November' is very different than 'we promise to release the game in November'. Most software companies don't promise anything specific like '50 crafting skills', they talk about something like a 'dynamic and flexible skill system'. All they'd need to do to avoid your regulations is to make sure never to guarantee a game at a specific date (Blizzard already goes one step further, they don't discuss release dates until the game is ready to ship), and either be careful with any specific promises like '50 crafting skills' or make a note to be sure that there are 50 crafting skills in the shipped game even if 48 of them are pathetic.
That mostly depend on the employee contract and on his option to get a better job if he left his current job. Some peoples are not paid for doing overtime and they will never be able to justify it...
IndustrieS are different and complex, models are not all the same...I know that myself I would not do unpaid overtime in most jobs, but again, it depend on the job, on the context, on the situation.
See, the highschool teachers, many of them do a LOT of overtime that isn't even recognize, they really won't ever get paid for that. A highschool teacher may work 35 hours in a week or 80 hours, same salary, and worst thing is...most peoples won't even admit and recognize that they work 80 hours...and that is only 1 example of unpaid overtime.
And some nature of the overtime work can be debated...see, let's suppose it 4 AM, Brad McQuaid come here and explain to me, again, why Vanguard is a next gen MMO and take time to give me examples. Is that overtime? Or isn't it? It isn't paid for sure! And what if at 6 AM, after a long 2 hours of sleep, he wake up, thinking about what I said on some other aspect and find a kick ass solution for some design in his game? Now, does that qualify as overtime? It is still not been paid for. And peoples like me, trying to "improve" MMOs in general, this is as community work, for free, out of kindness. Shouldn't overtime by other peoples be considered like community work? And it isn't recognize and neither do I care, I will still come and talk and argue...
All this is in the eye of the beholder...it depend on your perception of things. You can't stop peoples from giving their time, it wouldn't respect the free speech nor be democratic to do so...overtime can come from both side, and when it come from the individual side and not the company, you can't charge for it, but when the company expect it, it might be problematic, except for teachers of course, which we expect to be devoted and doing it...See, let's talk about Simultronic, the makers of heroes journey...all their designers are doing it in their free time, not been paid for, and this is okay with me...yet at the same time, they expect it, they expect some strong commitment, now this start been problematic, because your staff is unpaid and you commit them, without offering them the back up...see if a staff member can't keep up to his promise, can they sue him? I mean, it is FREE, so they in theory could sue for what they offer...in the same time, it might harm them, hurt them...and we can't just go with the "laws and the judges", these are the last recourse, they might not be right on the ethic level and we all know that...I honestly did consider helping HJ...yet when I see what they need and request...I feel they where asking a LOT, so I walk away. I could have written them a Game Design which I believe would be awesome, about the mechanics and how stuff should work, leveling up and everything, this is kinda a driving goal for me, like the leveling, the powers, everything silly that most peoples more or less like, the "balancing"(not in a PvP ways)...yet, I know they have peoples who accept that and do it...they aren't paid...and they certainly won't be paid for overtime...and yet they have deadlines and commitment, now I have no idea if they are enforcing these as it freak me out at that point. I can tell you that I send GD doc to the companies I like the most when they never ask for these, what they do with them is up to them, they can delete them or use them, it is a gift...
(however, if they have an auto-answer saying they delete stuff, they should precise it if they didn't delete, because I will assume they delete and feel free to "give" to another company who didn't delete, *wink wink*)
Again, everything is in the eye of the beholder.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren