PAYED GAME TESTER position avail at Sigil, notice fine print gota relocate to San Diego.
...PS V:SoH beta3 has added over 120 guilds, including FoH... 1/3 of FoH last month got baned (including one "unnamed" GM) from SoE's Progressive Combine server for exploits and abusing others. Now RoI is doing most of the work towards unlocking SoLuclin (1/3 through the 52 parts.) This week Sleeper server finally opened Velious and has started unlocking SoL (Insidious Vision does most of the work there.)
I dont know why games development is so inscestuous. I have been programming professionally for over 10 years with years of non game 3d graphics experience (not all 3d is games), but they insist on years of mmo experience with released titles. Other people probably feel the same way about their field (tools, database etc). I'm just not sure they will get the best calibre staff if they cant afford to fast track specialists who need a little cross training.
Originally posted by rounner I dont know why games development is so inscestuous. I have been programming professionally for over 10 years with years of non game 3d graphics experience (not all 3d is games), but they insist on years of mmo experience with released titles.
Well, this experience doesn't have to be in programming a MMO, but with MMOs, either as a player or as a member of the staff. You also need an experience in programming released titles. If you release Oblivion and did play EQ for years, I am pretty sure you qualified and that they would be drooling in getting you in their team...many other released games/projets will help. Now you must understand something, the multiplayers aspect is the HARDEST aspect of this programming job, just consider the time it would take you for a single player game, and double that time only for the multiplayers component. I think it explain why they scorn soo much on the single player, but they shouldn't when they are dealing with their customers, since the customers are basically their bosses. If the bosses are generally enjoying the solo-ability of the game...oh well, talking with SoE is pointless.
If you program games and don't play them, then it is complicated...as they need you to understand what a MMO is...so it is pretty hard to get in without playing the MMOs.
What I find funny, reading from SoE requirements
• Love for games and a fundamental understanding of what makes games entertaining.
Now, tell me how you can conciliate this with anyone that ever make a raiding system? LOL. Don't tell me raiding is entertaining, it isn't. Don't tell me it is fun, it isn't. Don't tell me raiding is part of a love for games, it isn't. Raiding is anathema to D&D, which is the core and the basic of RPG, building heroes, not developping some humble folks who are part of something bigger, D&D is been the hero, been the bigger alone or with your group! Not with your raid! This is quite basic and it astonish me at how awful they are at understanding this. It is pretty much like if you are trying to find something but you can't find it as you already hold it. Raiding is just that "dumb" gameplay-wise.
You may question my judgment, but I do looove EQ more than most of their staff, in fact, I don't think many of their staff have 1 year of online PLAYING (not afk) any character in their game...I do have one, and many twinks and would prolly have 2 years of online playing if I didn't stop in 2003...I would still be playing their game if not for finding a superior game, CoV. Raiding is just that BAD. I am not afraid to throw the "I am a Game Designer and a Highschool teacher" to add to the credibility of my point if you judge the arguing on the social position of the talker. Raiding is appealing to a minority of player who wouldn't achieve supremacy otherwise, this is all. Peoples getting an unfair edge, they might not even enjoy raiding, but the fact they get a supremacy that they would otherwise be denied, make them raid and support it. There are no love in that, but pure hatred combined with tons of drama. Raiding in it current form is neither fun, nor entertaining. Peoples raid because it make them better groupers. Which is a nonsense as it is hurting the incredible grouping game in the process. Someone should be doing an activity for itself, for something in it...not to be better in another activity.
LOL at SoE!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Now, tell me how you can conciliate this with anyone that ever make a raiding system? LOL. Don't tell me raiding is entertaining, it isn't. Don't tell me it is fun, it isn't. Don't tell me raiding is part of a love for games, it isn't. Raiding is anathema to D&D, which is the core and the basic of RPG, building heroes, not developping some humble folks who are part of something bigger, D&D is been the hero, been the bigger alone or with your group! Not with your raid! This is quite basic and it astonish me at how awful they are at understanding this. It is pretty much like if you are trying to find something but you can't find it as you already hold it. Raiding is just that "dumb" gameplay-wise.
I love raiding. I find it very fun and entertaining. And I know a lot of people who are fine in a group but just aren't bright enough to make it raiding. Games now days have (in many cases) progressed their encounters beyond the simple zerging that was old day raiding and many raids require each and every person to perform at their best in order to win the encounter. And from all the games I have played, it seems they are taking grouping the other way where thinking isn't involved at all. I know there is a lot more buttons to push in many new MMOs, but they still don't touch the tactics used in EQ grouping or raiding. So it looks to me like they are making more challenging encounters, but when it comes to grouping they have dumbed it way down.
Now, tell me how you can conciliate this with anyone that ever make a raiding system? LOL. Don't tell me raiding is entertaining, it isn't. Don't tell me it is fun, it isn't. Don't tell me raiding is part of a love for games, it isn't.
Yes it is, and yes it is, both for your questions.
Anofalye you need to start respecting other people point of view and preferences. There is people who like raiding, and they are quite a lot of them (Yes they do exists, they are not a rare specie either). You need to stop attacking Sigil as if you are the keeper of the holy truth, stop saying that they gonna fail because they target a different kind of player than you. The only way they gonna fail, it s if the game is crap, not because it s raid oriented.
They know that making a group/raid oriented game they gonna cut off 65-70% of possible customer base. It is a calculated risk but well thought of, they know what they are doing, believe me. They only need 100.000 subscribers to profit, and my guts tell me that they gonna reach at least 5 times that number, and the reason is because this game is catering for a category of players which no other game, apart EQ, takes care of.
If Vanguard was a more generic kinda game, like WOW, the chances of insuccess would be much higher since there is too much competition already: WoW, EQ2, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Gods and Heroes....... So Vanguard will have much better chances to be a success by catering for group/raiders, rather than solo/casual.
So Sigil know what is doing, you can bet on it, they are not stupid kids who haven't got a clue about the MMORPG market.
PAYED GAME TESTER position avail at Sigil, notice fine print gota relocate to San Diego.
...PS V:SoH beta3 has added over 120 guilds, including FoH... 1/3 of FoH last month got baned (including one "unnamed" GM) from SoE's Progressive Combine server for exploits and abusing others. Now RoI is doing most of the work towards unlocking SoLuclin (1/3 through the 52 parts.) This week Sleeper server finally opened Velious and has started unlocking SoL (Insidious Vision does most of the work there.)
It surprises me that FoH are even taken seriously anymore. They were a good source of humor for awhile but like Dice Clay they just got tiresome after a bit. They were and are nothing but a joke.
Originally posted by n2sooners Originally posted by Anofalye Now, tell me how you can conciliate this with anyone that ever make a raiding system? LOL. Don't tell me raiding is entertaining, it isn't. Don't tell me it is fun, it isn't. Don't tell me raiding is part of a love for games, it isn't. Raiding is anathema to D&D, which is the core and the basic of RPG, building heroes, not developping some humble folks who are part of something bigger, D&D is been the hero, been the bigger alone or with your group! Not with your raid! This is quite basic and it astonish me at how awful they are at understanding this. It is pretty much like if you are trying to find something but you can't find it as you already hold it. Raiding is just that "dumb" gameplay-wise. I love raiding. I find it very fun and entertaining. And I know a lot of people who are fine in a group but just aren't bright enough to make it raiding. Games now days have (in many cases) progressed their encounters beyond the simple zerging that was old day raiding and many raids require each and every person to perform at their best in order to win the encounter. And from all the games I have played, it seems they are taking grouping the other way where thinking isn't involved at all. I know there is a lot more buttons to push in many new MMOs, but they still don't touch the tactics used in EQ grouping or raiding. So it looks to me like they are making more challenging encounters, but when it comes to grouping they have dumbed it way down.
I love raiding too. It's guild politics and game politics that piss me off.
Anofalye you need to start respecting other people point of view and preferences. There is people who like raiding, and they are quite a lot of them (Yes they do exists, they are not a rare specie either).
Respect is a 2 way things. Raiders think they deserve better grouping gear, they don't. They show a total disrepect toward grouping and they abandon groups in middle of heavy stuff just because a raiding opportunity come up.
I have yet to find 1 person, in RL, that actually enjoy raiding. I find none yet, they all despite it, yet some peoples raids and support it because it make them better groupers, it give them edges that they would have never access throught grouping. My friends who raid and support it, they do it for the reward, they don't enjoy raiding itself, they raid to be better grouper than other players who doesn't raid, which is a nonsense in itself.
Raiding as enjoyable? The day I see 1 person, in RL, that actually enjoy raiding, I will believe it. But in all my friends, in all my gaming associations/clubs, in all the internet cafe I ever go, at work (Game Designer here), I never see someone enjoying raiding.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by ste2000
Anofalye you need to start respecting other people point of view and preferences. There is people who like raiding, and they are quite a lot of them (Yes they do exists, they are not a rare specie either).
Respect is a 2 way things. Raiders think they deserve better grouping gear, they don't. They show a total disrepect toward grouping and they abandon groups in middle of heavy stuff just because a raiding opportunity come up.
I have yet to find 1 person, in RL, that actually enjoy raiding. I find none yet, they all despite it, yet some peoples raids and support it because it make them better groupers, it give them edges that they would have never access throught grouping. My friends who raid and support it, they do it for the reward, they don't enjoy raiding itself, they raid to be better grouper than other players who doesn't raid, which is a nonsense in itself.
Raiding as enjoyable? The day I see 1 person, in RL, that actually enjoy raiding, I will believe it. But in all my friends, in all my gaming associations/clubs, in all the internet cafe I ever go, at work (Game Designer here), I never see someone enjoying raiding.
I have never met anyone in RL that thinks grouping or soloing are fun. They all despise them. And since that is my opinion then all games should ban soloing and grouping becuase soloers and groupers sux. That's my story and I'm sticking to it no matter how many people tell me I am wrong.
Fact it, much of my guild doesn't log in on off raiding nights. Many of them log in right before raids and log off after raids because the do indeed find the group stuff (also refered to as grinding by many) as boring. Many of them are upset over the next EQ expansion because it means they have to "grind" out five more levels and more AAs. Myself, I like both aspects of the game. I enjoy both the raiding and grouping and sometimes even a bit of soloing. My RL brother likes raiding. A friend that we have played MMOs with since 2000 likes raiding. A majority of my guild prefers raiding to grouping or soloing. And you know what? I don't give a crap if you believe me or not, facts are facts.
Raiding sucks... he was right the ONLY reason people raid is to get better gear than the people that don't simple as that. Hell Any noob can join a raiding guild and grab all the "uber lewt" from one or two raids that the guild has on farm status and still be a well geared no talent POS. Then say that raiding is the best thing to hit MMO's since the..... internet. <--??? All of you know damned well that the small groupers / soloers make a MMO not the raiding communities.
Yes it is, and yes it is, both for your questions.Anofalye you need to start respecting other people point of view and preferences.There is people who like raiding, and they are quite a lot of them (Yes they do exists, they are not a rare specie either).You need to stop attacking Sigil as if you are the keeper of the holy truth, stop saying that they gonna fail because they target a different kind of player than you.The only way they gonna fail, it s if the game is crap, not because it s raid oriented.
LOL, so true. Ive said it time and time again....Anofalye thinks because he doesn't like raiding or "all of his rl friends" than surly everybody must agree with him.
he thinks his opinion is the be all end all of what a mmorpg should be and anyone that disagrees is wrong. its obvious he has had some bad experiences with raiding and or raiding guilds in eq so he goes on to assume every guild is like that or every game with raiding is like that.
just like his argument that raiders can just sit around and be inefficient and still receive loot, its painfully obvious that he has just raided in eq where you can just zerg mobs with 100 people.
while i agree those types of raids do suck, games have moved on from that and every game i play now or plan on playing in the future don't allow "zerging" there are limits to how many people can attend a certain raid, and that raid is balanced for that number of people.
its really a shame that Anofalye just assumes every raid in every game is like old skool eq1, while i respect the fact that alot of people don't like to raid, raids are nothing like they were in eq1.
Originally posted by Smackjabber Raiding sucks... he was right the ONLY reason people raid is to get better gear than the people that don't simple as that. Hell Any noob can join a raiding guild and grab all the "uber lewt" from one or two raids that the guild has on farm status and still be a well geared no talent POS. Then say that raiding is the best thing to hit MMO's since the..... internet. <--??? All of you know damned well that the small groupers / soloers make a MMO not the raiding communities.
BS i like to raid because i enjoy it, not just for the loot. and yeah you are right any noob can join a established guild and get items handed to him on a silver platter.
but how was that same guild able to raid in the first place? do you really think that if a guild was made up of a bunch of "no talent POS" players, that they would still be successful?
and do you really think that any respectful guild would allow such player in their guild? also i have seen plenty of noobs roll on loot in small groups when they literally had no clue how to play their class and were basically carried through the dungeon by the skilled players in the group.
it works both ways, if you don't like to raid fine.....but there are people that do like it.
Respect is a 2 way things. Raiders think they deserve better grouping gear, they don't. They show a total disrepect toward grouping and they abandon groups in middle of heavy stuff just because a raiding opportunity come up.
Yes exactly, then learn how to do it.
I do respect solo/casual people, I don't like their gameplay but i don't think they suxx, unlikely you, who think that whoever enjoy raids is weird, and the devs who makes games for them don't undertand their market. I do not go to any of the casual games board to convince the developers to change their view and make their game more raid oriented, because i am intelligent and when they tell me that the game is gonna be casual, I tend to quit the comunity and look for something else, instead of beating the dead horse over and over.
Honestly, If you are a game designer I believe you need to change job, cause it ain't for you, your kind of thinking help to create monsters like DDO, yours is a simplicistic view of the market. Making products which appeals to the mass market not always equal success, because usually that kind of market is saturated, and you really need to make a masterpiece to stand out the crowd. Vanguard will be a unique product which is not going for the overcrowded market of the casual player, and this decision make sense commercially.
Another option is to develope a game yourself, since you are a game designer apparently. Make us an uber fun game, so you can show us how silly we were not to believe you.
But it ain't gonna happen, is it? Better spitting over everything that has to do with raiding, it's more fun..............
Personally I don't have a problem with raiding or raiders. I do have a problem with the fiction that raiding is harder or involves more risk than other content, and therefore has to be rewarded the most. That is where the controversy really begins.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Making products which appeals to the mass market not always equal success, because usually that kind of market is saturated, and you really need to make a masterpiece to stand out the crowd. Vanguard will be a unique product which is not going for the overcrowded market of the casual player, and this decision make sense commercially.
Vanguard is doing ANOTHER game that enforce raiding on everyone. Another game where you aggravated all non-raiders. I find it funny that peoples who understand that PvP ruin PvE can't understand that raiding ruin grouping.
I become a Game designer BECAUSE I despite this raiding enforcement, because it reach me in a wrong way (as a highschool teacher, I have better conditions elsewhere, so it it really a leap of faith). Now does I have the skill to make it up all the way to a MMO game? I dunno, we will see in time, but every time I see such lazy design enforcing lame gameplays on peoples who want something else, I find my chances are on the rise and increasing, not because I am good, but because their is such a huge VOID to be compensated...and gimme time to "evolves", 1 year ago I wasn't even in this field...sooo been a GD is already a feat, everyone else on the team has a "programming/artistic" background, which I don't have...eventually, if they keep doing such a miserable enforcement on non-raiders, I have no doubt I will find my ways, to a MMO. Yet it is silly that it might be because their is such lacking in the business rather than on an individual worth, wouldn't it?
After a year, my first constatation about the gaming industry would be...their is a LOT of non-gamers working there, this is really amazing...great peoples with great ideas...still not gamers. I dunno why, but it is just the way it is...some where gamers, decades ago, some never where...some are gamers but not in the type of games they do, a FPS gamer doing puzzles games can't be considered as a puzzle-gamer doing puzzles. Maybe there are many non-gamers around Brad (I am sure Brad is a gamer and kinda believe in raiding, no matter how wrong he is on this topic...and non-gamers aren't going to be able to convince him...because they don't care enought). It is easier to SAY that you are a gamer than to be one.
Enforcing raiding, just like WoW, EQ and EQ2 make no sense in the long run, it alienate your fanbase as well as turn away many peoples. I have said it, I know nobody in RL(over hundred of peoples, including employees in a gaming company as well as internet cafe peoples) that enjoy raiding and peoples who support it are extremely unlikely to start "another" raiding game ever, since after all, they enjoy been good in a group, not raiding. Really make little sense to make another raiding-enforcement game.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
/3 of FoH last month got baned (including one "unnamed" GM) from SoE's Progressive Combine server for exploits and abusing others. Now RoI is doing most of the work towards unlocking SoLuclin (1/3 through the 52 parts.) This week Sleeper server finally opened Velious and has started unlocking SoL (Insidious Vision does most of the work there.)
My Buddies at the FoH , Strenght in numbers of Numbskulls
Originally posted by Anofalye Vanguard is doing ANOTHER game that enforce raiding on everyone.
No use reading past that since it is obvious you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Just because you keep saying something doesn't make it so.
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by ste2000
Making products which appeals to the mass market not always equal success, because usually that kind of market is saturated, and you really need to make a masterpiece to stand out the crowd. Vanguard will be a unique product which is not going for the overcrowded market of the casual player, and this decision make sense commercially.
Enforcing raiding, just like WoW, EQ and EQ2 make no sense in the long run, it alienate your fanbase as well as turn away many peoples.
I am sorry, but 6 million people thinks differtly from you mate, your market analisys is completely wrong. Your thoughts are based on your preferences, not on the reality. If people was so pissed off with raiding, WOW would be already scrapped like AC2, instead that game is making Blizzard and Vivendi billionaires.
I agree with you that some people don't like raiding, I agree with you that some people just raid because it's the only way to get the best loot, but there is lots of people who actually like raiding. If the situation was that bad, people would refuse to play WoW, and will choose to play something else (I don't like open PVP therefore I refuse to play Lineage 2, I don't force myself to play that game just to get the uber Armor). If people keep playing WOW, that means that they enjoy it regardless the raid, because the game is that good. WoW has good content for Solo, Group and Raid. That's why is successful.
In my game I like to have options, sometime i fancy to group, sometimes I feel like raiding, some other time I just want to be on my own and solo. I want to be able to do what I want, I want a choice. WOW gives that choice that's why is successful, DDO don't give that choice, they force people to group, with no other content, and that's why that game is shit.
Vanguard will be the WOW of "core" gamers, because will offer all kind of gameplay, plus more freeedom and more challenge. Lastly, You cannot exclude Raiding from MMORPGs, because it is part of it, like soloing, and grouping. So leave this poor old horse to rest in peace, and stop beating it because it is already dead.
Vanguard can't force you to do anything you don't want to do. And no one can force you to play Vanguard so if it's giving you such fits then don't play it. It's that simple. You are an adult right? Ok then problem solved.
Originally posted by ste2000 In my game I like to have options, sometime i fancy to group, sometimes I feel like raiding, some other time I just want to be on my own and solo.I want to be able to do what I want, I want a choice.WOW gives that choice that's why is successful, DDO don't give that choice, they force people to group, with no other content, and that's why that game is shit.
i agree, i want a choice but i disagree about your reasoning for DDO not being successful. DDO has solo content, the reason it isn't successful is because there is no world to explore, its all instances, you don't feel like your in a online world......you have to pay $15 a month to get what GW offers you for free and does it better because it at least it has pvp content.
i think vanguard will be similar where it forces you to group, well it doesn't literally force you but you need to group sometimes.....you cant just solo the whole time and still get the same benefits a grouper would get.
i like to solo sometimes and i like to raid sometimes, and i think as long as people realize that vanguard isn't a game where you can "only" solo and be content then everything is all good.
ofcource I'm sure there will be people that will be perfectly happy just soloing and enjoy themselves in vanguard, but IMO they wont be the achiever types.....roleplayers will be just fine soloing in vanguard I'm sure.
Originally posted by ste2000 In my game I like to have options, sometime i fancy to group, sometimes I feel like raiding, some other time I just want to be on my own and solo.I want to be able to do what I want, I want a choice.WOW gives that choice that's why is successful, DDO don't give that choice, they force people to group, with no other content, and that's why that game is shit.
i agree, i want a choice but i disagree about your reasoning for DDO not being successful. DDO has solo content, the reason it isn't successful is because there is no world to explore, its all instances, you don't feel like your in a online world......you have to pay $15 a month to get what GW offers you for free and does it better because it at least it has pvp content.
DDO added solo content after the riot on their boards, with people complaining that there were nothing to do except grouping (plus all the other reason you listed). At launch DDO consisted in players waiting in the tavern to find a group, going in the dungeon clearing it and repeat.
They added Solo content later, and by the way this solo content consist in the same dungeons dedicated for grouping but with less mobs (Genious!!!). The game was designed exclusively for group, because they wanted to keep the same D&D feeling which is supposed to be played only in group (the fools).
Since the success of AC, Turbine has been overwelmed by the greed, since then they only tried to make games for the masses in order to make more money, and the result are: AC2 canceled after 1 year, DDO which needs to be completely redesigned after release (they are adding Solo and PVP content), and LOTRO who is still in Alpha after 2 years of developement and still no sign of a clear game design.
If you think to make a game for the money, you ll get DDO. If you think to make an honest game like Vanguard, you ll get money.
That's what Sigil is doing...........need before greed
Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by baphametOriginally posted by ste2000In my game I like to have options, sometime i fancy to group, sometimes I feel like raiding, some other time I just want to be on my own and solo.I want to be able to do what I want, I want a choice.WOW gives that choice that's why is successful, DDO don't give that choice, they force people to group, with no other content, and that's why that game is shit. i agree, i want a choice but i disagree about your reasoning for DDO not being successful. DDO has solo content, the reason it isn't successful is because there is no world to explore, its all instances, you don't feel like your in a online world......you have to pay $15 a month to get what GW offers you for free and does it better because it at least it has pvp content. DDO added solo content after the riot on their boards, with people complaining that there were nothing to do except grouping (plus all the other reason you listed).At launch DDO consisted in players waiting in the tavern to find a group, going in the dungeon clearing it and repeat.They added Solo content later, and by the way this solo content consist in the same dungeons dedicated for grouping but with less mobs (Genious!!!).The game was designed exclusively for group, because they wanted to keep the same D&D feeling which is supposed to be played only in group (the fools).Since the success of AC, Turbine has been overwelmed by the greed, since then they only tried to make games for the masses in order to make more money, and the result are: AC2 canceled after 1 year, DDO which needs to be completely redesigned after release (they are adding Solo and PVP content), and LOTRO who is still in Alpha after 2 years of developement and still no sign of a clear game design.If you think to make a game for the money, you ll get DDO.If you think to make an honest game like Vanguard, you ll get money.That's what Sigil is doing...........need before greed
my point is, alot of people always say that DDO isn't successful because it has forced grouping so vanguard will fail to. yeah at first DDO was completely group forced and I'm sure alot of people didn't like that, but even now with the solo content people still don't play it.
I'm sure its hard to convince people to come back to your game after you fixed something they quit because of. but if you hated DDO just because of forced grouping then why not come back after they added solo content?
i think the main reason DDO failed i already listed in my last post, why pay $15 a month to play DDO when you can play GW and get the same thing for free only better?
Originally posted by baphamet I'm sure its hard to convince people to come back to your game after you fixed something they quit because of. but if you hated DDO just because of forced grouping then why not come back after they added solo content?
Because there is not Solo content. As I explained before, adapting dungeons intended to group by putting less mobs in it just to make it soloable, doesn't count as a good effort, it just feel like they are taking the piss. Too little to late.
Also don't get me wrong, the reason you listed are more than valid. But I can assure you that if DDO had more choice of gameplay, I could have put up with fighting only in Dungeons, at least it is something different than others MMORPG.
Originally posted by ste2000 Because there is not Solo content.As I explained before, adapting dungeons intended to group by putting less mobs in it just to make it soloable, doesn't count as a good effort, it just feel like they are taking the piss.Too little to late.Also don't get me wrong, the reason you listed are more than valid.But I can assure you that if DDO had more choice of gameplay, I could have put up with fighting only in Dungeons, at least it is something different than others MMORPG.
Daoc did it and nobody seemed to care (well they just made the mobs lower level)
i think it does depend on the person alot, but i just think that D&D fans want a good RP experience and thats why most of them will hate DDO because it does not feel like you are in a fantasy world.
thats why i don't like it, Ive tried the solo content and it isn't bad it just reminds me of guildwars and i would never pay a monthly fee to play it.
Comments
06.09.11
PAYED GAME TESTER position avail at Sigil, notice fine print gota relocate to San Diego.
...PS V:SoH beta3 has added over 120 guilds, including FoH... 1/3 of FoH last month got baned (including one "unnamed" GM) from SoE's Progressive Combine server for exploits and abusing others. Now RoI is doing most of the work towards unlocking SoLuclin (1/3 through the 52 parts.) This week Sleeper server finally opened Velious and has started unlocking SoL (Insidious Vision does most of the work there.)
Well, this experience doesn't have to be in programming a MMO, but with MMOs, either as a player or as a member of the staff. You also need an experience in programming released titles. If you release Oblivion and did play EQ for years, I am pretty sure you qualified and that they would be drooling in getting you in their team...many other released games/projets will help. Now you must understand something, the multiplayers aspect is the HARDEST aspect of this programming job, just consider the time it would take you for a single player game, and double that time only for the multiplayers component. I think it explain why they scorn soo much on the single player, but they shouldn't when they are dealing with their customers, since the customers are basically their bosses. If the bosses are generally enjoying the solo-ability of the game...oh well, talking with SoE is pointless.
If you program games and don't play them, then it is complicated...as they need you to understand what a MMO is...so it is pretty hard to get in without playing the MMOs.
What I find funny, reading from SoE requirements
• Love for games and a fundamental understanding of what makes games entertaining.
Now, tell me how you can conciliate this with anyone that ever make a raiding system? LOL. Don't tell me raiding is entertaining, it isn't. Don't tell me it is fun, it isn't. Don't tell me raiding is part of a love for games, it isn't. Raiding is anathema to D&D, which is the core and the basic of RPG, building heroes, not developping some humble folks who are part of something bigger, D&D is been the hero, been the bigger alone or with your group! Not with your raid! This is quite basic and it astonish me at how awful they are at understanding this. It is pretty much like if you are trying to find something but you can't find it as you already hold it. Raiding is just that "dumb" gameplay-wise.
You may question my judgment, but I do looove EQ more than most of their staff, in fact, I don't think many of their staff have 1 year of online PLAYING (not afk) any character in their game...I do have one, and many twinks and would prolly have 2 years of online playing if I didn't stop in 2003...I would still be playing their game if not for finding a superior game, CoV. Raiding is just that BAD. I am not afraid to throw the "I am a Game Designer and a Highschool teacher" to add to the credibility of my point if you judge the arguing on the social position of the talker. Raiding is appealing to a minority of player who wouldn't achieve supremacy otherwise, this is all. Peoples getting an unfair edge, they might not even enjoy raiding, but the fact they get a supremacy that they would otherwise be denied, make them raid and support it. There are no love in that, but pure hatred combined with tons of drama. Raiding in it current form is neither fun, nor entertaining. Peoples raid because it make them better groupers. Which is a nonsense as it is hurting the incredible grouping game in the process. Someone should be doing an activity for itself, for something in it...not to be better in another activity.
LOL at SoE!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Anofalye you need to start respecting other people point of view and preferences.
There is people who like raiding, and they are quite a lot of them (Yes they do exists, they are not a rare specie either).
You need to stop attacking Sigil as if you are the keeper of the holy truth, stop saying that they gonna fail because they target a different kind of player than you.
The only way they gonna fail, it s if the game is crap, not because it s raid oriented.
They know that making a group/raid oriented game they gonna cut off 65-70% of possible customer base.
It is a calculated risk but well thought of, they know what they are doing, believe me.
They only need 100.000 subscribers to profit, and my guts tell me that they gonna reach at least 5 times that number, and the reason is because this game is catering for a category of players which no other game, apart EQ, takes care of.
If Vanguard was a more generic kinda game, like WOW, the chances of insuccess would be much higher since there is too much competition already: WoW, EQ2, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Gods and Heroes.......
So Vanguard will have much better chances to be a success by catering for group/raiders, rather than solo/casual.
So Sigil know what is doing, you can bet on it, they are not stupid kids who haven't got a clue about the MMORPG market.
Originally posted by bhug
06.09.11
PAYED GAME TESTER position avail at Sigil, notice fine print gota relocate to San Diego.
...PS V:SoH beta3 has added over 120 guilds, including FoH... 1/3 of FoH last month got baned (including one "unnamed" GM) from SoE's Progressive Combine server for exploits and abusing others. Now RoI is doing most of the work towards unlocking SoLuclin (1/3 through the 52 parts.) This week Sleeper server finally opened Velious and has started unlocking SoL (Insidious Vision does most of the work there.)
It surprises me that FoH are even taken seriously anymore. They were a good source of humor for awhile but like Dice Clay they just got tiresome after a bit. They were and are nothing but a joke.
Make a difference!
I love raiding too. It's guild politics and game politics that piss me off.
Make a difference!
Respect is a 2 way things. Raiders think they deserve better grouping gear, they don't. They show a total disrepect toward grouping and they abandon groups in middle of heavy stuff just because a raiding opportunity come up.
I have yet to find 1 person, in RL, that actually enjoy raiding. I find none yet, they all despite it, yet some peoples raids and support it because it make them better groupers, it give them edges that they would have never access throught grouping. My friends who raid and support it, they do it for the reward, they don't enjoy raiding itself, they raid to be better grouper than other players who doesn't raid, which is a nonsense in itself.
Raiding as enjoyable? The day I see 1 person, in RL, that actually enjoy raiding, I will believe it. But in all my friends, in all my gaming associations/clubs, in all the internet cafe I ever go, at work (Game Designer here), I never see someone enjoying raiding.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Respect is a 2 way things. Raiders think they deserve better grouping gear, they don't. They show a total disrepect toward grouping and they abandon groups in middle of heavy stuff just because a raiding opportunity come up.
I have yet to find 1 person, in RL, that actually enjoy raiding. I find none yet, they all despite it, yet some peoples raids and support it because it make them better groupers, it give them edges that they would have never access throught grouping. My friends who raid and support it, they do it for the reward, they don't enjoy raiding itself, they raid to be better grouper than other players who doesn't raid, which is a nonsense in itself.
Raiding as enjoyable? The day I see 1 person, in RL, that actually enjoy raiding, I will believe it. But in all my friends, in all my gaming associations/clubs, in all the internet cafe I ever go, at work (Game Designer here), I never see someone enjoying raiding.
I have never met anyone in RL that thinks grouping or soloing are fun. They all despise them. And since that is my opinion then all games should ban soloing and grouping becuase soloers and groupers sux. That's my story and I'm sticking to it no matter how many people tell me I am wrong.
Fact it, much of my guild doesn't log in on off raiding nights. Many of them log in right before raids and log off after raids because the do indeed find the group stuff (also refered to as grinding by many) as boring. Many of them are upset over the next EQ expansion because it means they have to "grind" out five more levels and more AAs. Myself, I like both aspects of the game. I enjoy both the raiding and grouping and sometimes even a bit of soloing. My RL brother likes raiding. A friend that we have played MMOs with since 2000 likes raiding. A majority of my guild prefers raiding to grouping or soloing. And you know what? I don't give a crap if you believe me or not, facts are facts.
Fuzzy wuzzy was a bear...
LOL, so true. Ive said it time and time again....Anofalye thinks because he doesn't like raiding or "all of his rl friends" than surly everybody must agree with him.
he thinks his opinion is the be all end all of what a mmorpg should be and anyone that disagrees is wrong. its obvious he has had some bad experiences with raiding and or raiding guilds in eq so he goes on to assume every guild is like that or every game with raiding is like that.
just like his argument that raiders can just sit around and be inefficient and still receive loot, its painfully obvious that he has just raided in eq where you can just zerg mobs with 100 people.
while i agree those types of raids do suck, games have moved on from that and every game i play now or plan on playing in the future don't allow "zerging" there are limits to how many people can attend a certain raid, and that raid is balanced for that number of people.
its really a shame that Anofalye just assumes every raid in every game is like old skool eq1, while i respect the fact that alot of people don't like to raid, raids are nothing like they were in eq1.
BS i like to raid because i enjoy it, not just for the loot. and yeah you are right any noob can join a established guild and get items handed to him on a silver platter.
but how was that same guild able to raid in the first place? do you really think that if a guild was made up of a bunch of "no talent POS" players, that they would still be successful?
and do you really think that any respectful guild would allow such player in their guild? also i have seen plenty of noobs roll on loot in small groups when they literally had no clue how to play their class and were basically carried through the dungeon by the skilled players in the group.
it works both ways, if you don't like to raid fine.....but there are people that do like it.
I do respect solo/casual people, I don't like their gameplay but i don't think they suxx, unlikely you, who think that whoever enjoy raids is weird, and the devs who makes games for them don't undertand their market.
I do not go to any of the casual games board to convince the developers to change their view and make their game more raid oriented, because i am intelligent and when they tell me that the game is gonna be casual, I tend to quit the comunity and look for something else, instead of beating the dead horse over and over.
Honestly, If you are a game designer I believe you need to change job, cause it ain't for you, your kind of thinking help to create monsters like DDO, yours is a simplicistic view of the market.
Making products which appeals to the mass market not always equal success, because usually that kind of market is saturated, and you really need to make a masterpiece to stand out the crowd.
Vanguard will be a unique product which is not going for the overcrowded market of the casual player, and this decision make sense commercially.
Another option is to develope a game yourself, since you are a game designer apparently.
Make us an uber fun game, so you can show us how silly we were not to believe you.
But it ain't gonna happen, is it?
Better spitting over everything that has to do with raiding, it's more fun..............
Personally I don't have a problem with raiding or raiders. I do have a problem with the fiction that raiding is harder or involves more risk than other content, and therefore has to be rewarded the most. That is where the controversy really begins.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Vanguard is doing ANOTHER game that enforce raiding on everyone. Another game where you aggravated all non-raiders. I find it funny that peoples who understand that PvP ruin PvE can't understand that raiding ruin grouping.
I become a Game designer BECAUSE I despite this raiding enforcement, because it reach me in a wrong way (as a highschool teacher, I have better conditions elsewhere, so it it really a leap of faith). Now does I have the skill to make it up all the way to a MMO game? I dunno, we will see in time, but every time I see such lazy design enforcing lame gameplays on peoples who want something else, I find my chances are on the rise and increasing, not because I am good, but because their is such a huge VOID to be compensated...and gimme time to "evolves", 1 year ago I wasn't even in this field...sooo been a GD is already a feat, everyone else on the team has a "programming/artistic" background, which I don't have...eventually, if they keep doing such a miserable enforcement on non-raiders, I have no doubt I will find my ways, to a MMO. Yet it is silly that it might be because their is such lacking in the business rather than on an individual worth, wouldn't it?
After a year, my first constatation about the gaming industry would be...their is a LOT of non-gamers working there, this is really amazing...great peoples with great ideas...still not gamers. I dunno why, but it is just the way it is...some where gamers, decades ago, some never where...some are gamers but not in the type of games they do, a FPS gamer doing puzzles games can't be considered as a puzzle-gamer doing puzzles. Maybe there are many non-gamers around Brad (I am sure Brad is a gamer and kinda believe in raiding, no matter how wrong he is on this topic...and non-gamers aren't going to be able to convince him...because they don't care enought). It is easier to SAY that you are a gamer than to be one.
Enforcing raiding, just like WoW, EQ and EQ2 make no sense in the long run, it alienate your fanbase as well as turn away many peoples. I have said it, I know nobody in RL(over hundred of peoples, including employees in a gaming company as well as internet cafe peoples) that enjoy raiding and peoples who support it are extremely unlikely to start "another" raiding game ever, since after all, they enjoy been good in a group, not raiding. Really make little sense to make another raiding-enforcement game.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
/3 of FoH last month got baned (including one "unnamed" GM) from SoE's Progressive Combine server for exploits and abusing others. Now RoI is doing most of the work towards unlocking SoLuclin (1/3 through the 52 parts.) This week Sleeper server finally opened Velious and has started unlocking SoL (Insidious Vision does most of the work there.)
My Buddies at the FoH , Strenght in numbers of Numbskulls
Unaware of the Jestor?
http://about.me/JestorRodo/
Friends enjoy his classic Vblog - https://www.facebook.com/GoodOldReliableNathan
Enforcing raiding, just like WoW, EQ and EQ2 make no sense in the long run, it alienate your fanbase as well as turn away many peoples.
I am sorry, but 6 million people thinks differtly from you mate, your market analisys is completely wrong.
Your thoughts are based on your preferences, not on the reality.
If people was so pissed off with raiding, WOW would be already scrapped like AC2, instead that game is making Blizzard and Vivendi billionaires.
I agree with you that some people don't like raiding, I agree with you that some people just raid because it's the only way to get the best loot, but there is lots of people who actually like raiding.
If the situation was that bad, people would refuse to play WoW, and will choose to play something else (I don't like open PVP therefore I refuse to play Lineage 2, I don't force myself to play that game just to get the uber Armor).
If people keep playing WOW, that means that they enjoy it regardless the raid, because the game is that good.
WoW has good content for Solo, Group and Raid. That's why is successful.
In my game I like to have options, sometime i fancy to group, sometimes I feel like raiding, some other time I just want to be on my own and solo.
I want to be able to do what I want, I want a choice.
WOW gives that choice that's why is successful, DDO don't give that choice, they force people to group, with no other content, and that's why that game is shit.
Vanguard will be the WOW of "core" gamers, because will offer all kind of gameplay, plus more freeedom and more challenge.
Lastly, You cannot exclude Raiding from MMORPGs, because it is part of it, like soloing, and grouping.
So leave this poor old horse to rest in peace, and stop beating it because it is already dead.
i agree, i want a choice but i disagree about your reasoning for DDO not being successful. DDO has solo content, the reason it isn't successful is because there is no world to explore, its all instances, you don't feel like your in a online world......you have to pay $15 a month to get what GW offers you for free and does it better because it at least it has pvp content.
i think vanguard will be similar where it forces you to group, well it doesn't literally force you but you need to group sometimes.....you cant just solo the whole time and still get the same benefits a grouper would get.
i like to solo sometimes and i like to raid sometimes, and i think as long as people realize that vanguard isn't a game where you can "only" solo and be content then everything is all good.
ofcource I'm sure there will be people that will be perfectly happy just soloing and enjoy themselves in vanguard, but IMO they wont be the achiever types.....roleplayers will be just fine soloing in vanguard I'm sure.
i agree, i want a choice but i disagree about your reasoning for DDO not being successful. DDO has solo content, the reason it isn't successful is because there is no world to explore, its all instances, you don't feel like your in a online world......you have to pay $15 a month to get what GW offers you for free and does it better because it at least it has pvp content.
DDO added solo content after the riot on their boards, with people complaining that there were nothing to do except grouping (plus all the other reason you listed).
At launch DDO consisted in players waiting in the tavern to find a group, going in the dungeon clearing it and repeat.
They added Solo content later, and by the way this solo content consist in the same dungeons dedicated for grouping but with less mobs (Genious!!!).
The game was designed exclusively for group, because they wanted to keep the same D&D feeling which is supposed to be played only in group (the fools).
Since the success of AC, Turbine has been overwelmed by the greed, since then they only tried to make games for the masses in order to make more money, and the result are: AC2 canceled after 1 year, DDO which needs to be completely redesigned after release (they are adding Solo and PVP content), and LOTRO who is still in Alpha after 2 years of developement and still no sign of a clear game design.
If you think to make a game for the money, you ll get DDO.
If you think to make an honest game like Vanguard, you ll get money.
That's what Sigil is doing...........need before greed
my point is, alot of people always say that DDO isn't successful because it has forced grouping so vanguard will fail to. yeah at first DDO was completely group forced and I'm sure alot of people didn't like that, but even now with the solo content people still don't play it.
I'm sure its hard to convince people to come back to your game after you fixed something they quit because of. but if you hated DDO just because of forced grouping then why not come back after they added solo content?
i think the main reason DDO failed i already listed in my last post, why pay $15 a month to play DDO when you can play GW and get the same thing for free only better?
As I explained before, adapting dungeons intended to group by putting less mobs in it just to make it soloable, doesn't count as a good effort, it just feel like they are taking the piss.
Too little to late.
Also don't get me wrong, the reason you listed are more than valid.
But I can assure you that if DDO had more choice of gameplay, I could have put up with fighting only in Dungeons, at least it is something different than others MMORPG.
Daoc did it and nobody seemed to care
(well they just made the mobs lower level)
i think it does depend on the person alot, but i just think that D&D fans want a good RP experience and thats why most of them will hate DDO because it does not feel like you are in a fantasy world.
thats why i don't like it, Ive tried the solo content and it isn't bad it just reminds me of guildwars and i would never pay a monthly fee to play it.