Feral Druids and Shadow Preists can both do a lot of damage. They can be main attackers. Shaman can be main attackers but they need to do it a certain way or they go OOM too quickly. Shocks are useful, but shock happy shaman go OOM very fast. Also shaman can basically support without too much penalty so if they are not supporting they are not playing as well as they could, unlike a druid or a priest in shadowform.Paladins simply can't be effective main attackers, although they can be good secondary attackers/supporters. And they can be crazy good pure supporters/combat healers.Now yes you should heal when its useful. But I am talking about what task you are performing. Paladins simply are not threatening when they are attacking. A shadow priest can f*** you up hardcore without throwing a heal. I have two shotted mages with my feral druid. Paladins damage is ok, it is useful, but in order to achieve true threat they must do some support. Paladins are truly threatening when you say "crap I gotta kill that paladin or that mage will kill us all" (or warrior whatever).Paladins are stuck in that they cannot be truly effective without some measure of support. They do not need to be pure support. But if they have no support at all they just have medicore damage. A hybrid approach can work quite well for a paladin. They are made to be defensive hybrids, so when they get played too far to the offensive they start to fall off.Every other class can specialize to damage enough to be acceptable to some degree. A shaman,feral druid, shadow priest playing no support does good damage(possibly even excellent damage), a paladin playing no support does mediocre damage. Even the bad shaman can burst out some good damage becasue of shocks, even though they go OOM and are much less effective than a well played shaman (support or main attack shaman)Again its not that Paladins suck and its not that they must play 100% support, but a lot of people want to play no support at all and when that happens on a paladin you are a lot less effective than other classes.Paladins are crazy at support, a frigging nightmare. Unfortunately for them they are doomed to be at best secondary attackers. But even worse when they go past secondary attacker into main attack with little support they fall off drastically. But other classes do not. People say Ret is a bad spec sometimes. But they arent' exactly right. Ret is a fine spec for secondary attacker/semi support. But no paladin spec is adequate for main attack.
shadowpriest and feral druids in a bg are gimp, yeah in world pvp or duels they are good but I'm talking about bg's. the only exception would be if you had alot of healers already but that is never the case, if nobody heals in a bg your team is done for usually.
the point you seem to be making is paladin arnt efficient killers like shaman,shadowpriest,feral druid.....and while that may or may not be accurate i cant really say because i have never played a paladin.
i know some paladin that can drop the hammer down on some people that is for sure, but what i think is far more important is the fact that these specs arnt healing in bg's thats the true problem and when you are a healing class and not healing, you are helping your team lose.
As a former feral druid I disagree with what you say (up to MC level gear, past MC gear feral druids start to suck) about fearl druids and shadow priests.
But let us leave that aside as it is not germane to my argument. My argument is not that eitehr one is effective, but rather that when a shaman adheres to a purely offensive startegy and when a paladin adheres to purely offensive strategy the shaman. The shaman will be less gimp.
They may both, in fact, be gimp. But what I am arguing is a matter of degrees.
The corrolary to this is that a lot of people who play both paladins and shamans adhere to a purely offesnive strategy especially in PUGs.
So PUGs on both sides tend to be gimp. But the Horde PUG are somewhat less gimp due to the nature of Shamans.
Shaman are offensive hybrids. Paladisn are defensive hybrids. There is a significant trend for players of both classes to go on offense to an inadvisiable degree and/or in an inadvisiable manner.
The offensively minded dumb paladin is less effective than the offensively minded dumb shaman.
Both sides have dumb people. There are dumb people in all classes. But for paladins specifically one of the common trends of "dumbness" (ie. run up and bash stuff by jamming your attack feats) penalizes them more than other classes.
What is more effective running up to some guy and spamming shocks or running up and spamming daminging judgements? Look they are both dumb, but shock spam is more effective. If the players were smart both shocks and judgements can be used to great effectiveness.
But we are not talking about smart play.
What is one of the most common occurances of dumb play? The idiots who just runs up and spams. We have all seen it probably. But a shaman who spams shocks can do 2 debuffs and 1000 or more damage in 6 seconds.
Smart paladins are forimidable both offensively and defensively (with in limits). But dumb offensive paladins really are not trheatening at all. Whereas shock spam can kill you if it happens at the wrong time. Even if the guy is a complete idiot and dying all the time and going OOM all the time, you always gotta be at least somewhat worried about the 1000 shock, 6 seconds, shock. That could easily be two interrupts or slow you for a long time, and even one crit bumps that up to 1500. Add in spell damage and it gets worse. Any dumb shaman can do this. I think I could train a parrot to do it.
Basically dumb paladins tend to penalize alliance more than dumb shaman penalize Horde. Once you start talking about two teams with non-dumb people it becomes completely different.
Well i have a lvl 19 mage and i tried to devise strategies and keep everyone on top but noone will listen. I say we need defence then everyone says, "Let's charge the horde!" They all rush to die!! As a mage i died a lot!!! So I started a pally and at lvl 10 its hard to surveive. I think we lose because in stead of tanking and helping the damage dealers stay alive, tanks go out and fight and leaveb the mage to be clubbed over the head. The tank gets the flag without damage dealers to protect them and they get pwned! Its a countinuous cycle. I've contemplated it myself. In conclusion we neeeed strategy or we get pwned!!!!!!
While people always accuse Alliaince members of not listening this is not the reasonw why they lose. The reason is plain and simple age/experience. Horde are going to be typically more experienced at the game. When a younger player first starts WoW they are going to find the allaince more attractive than the horde because the horde embellish evil. ugly creatures. It is typically not till a player loses interest in the allaince that they make a horde char. Resulting in more experience in gameplay.
While there are exceptions to this, think about it; what is a 12 year old more likely to choose as a character a heroic looking allaince member or a big ugly cow?
Originally posted by gestalt11 As a former feral druid I disagree with what you say (up to MC level gear, past MC gear feral druids start to suck) about fearl druids and shadow priests.But let us leave that aside as it is not germane to my argument. My argument is not that eitehr one is effective, but rather that when a shaman adheres to a purely offensive startegy and when a paladin adheres to purely offensive strategy the shaman. The shaman will be less gimp.They may both, in fact, be gimp. But what I am arguing is a matter of degrees. The corrolary to this is that a lot of people who play both paladins and shamans adhere to a purely offesnive strategy especially in PUGs.So PUGs on both sides tend to be gimp.
i can agree with that but i still think healing class that refuse to heal in battlegrounds regardless of the class is helping their team lose, we will have to agree to disagree on that point.
rogues do more damage than feral druids and warlocks do more damage than shadowpriests....and there are plenty of them to go around, however healers are hard to come by.
The Horde are, for the most part, much more coordinated than the Alliance. The Alliance run around like chickens with their heads cut off, never listening to even the most basic and rational attack / defend plans.
You almost always see Horde fighting as a team, you almost never see Alliance doing it. I constantly hear remarks from Alliance players like, "Defense is fo n00bs stfu!" or "We are going to lose anyways, why bother?" I often wonder if Horde talks like that. Aggrivating as all hell I must say.
Sure, Shamans are "IWIN" in PvP, but good teamwork wins anyday over some twinked gank squad.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
As a former feral druid I disagree with what you say (up to MC level gear, past MC gear feral druids start to suck) about fearl druids and shadow priests.But let us leave that aside as it is not germane to my argument. My argument is not that eitehr one is effective, but rather that when a shaman adheres to a purely offensive startegy and when a paladin adheres to purely offensive strategy the shaman. The shaman will be less gimp.They may both, in fact, be gimp. But what I am arguing is a matter of degrees. The corrolary to this is that a lot of people who play both paladins and shamans adhere to a purely offesnive strategy especially in PUGs.So PUGs on both sides tend to be gimp.
i can agree with that but i still think healing class that refuse to heal in battlegrounds regardless of the class is helping their team lose, we will have to agree to disagree on that point.
rogues do more damage than feral druids and warlocks do more damage than shadowpriests....and there are plenty of them to go around, however healers are hard to come by.
I didn't say refuse to heal. I said main attack and I also specifically said that anyone who can heal should heal when its wise. But shadow priests and feral druids (before raiding gear starts to mess things up) can be very very effective.
A bear with 8k ac that crits 25% of time for 800 or more damage, can self heal, feral charge every 6 seconds for and intterupt and snare, and stun for 5 seconds and do all that at 115% run speed. And do all that from a nice position by stealth. Is able to stealth faster than normal people run etc. Anyway pre BWL gear you shouldn't underestimate either one.
Of course once you start hitting BWl geared people you should give up on feral druid, The AQ peice gear is nice but its not good enough. The blues that could beat out MC gear won't match up to BWL gear and there are no real counterparts.
Any druid knows druid itemization has always been screwed up and raiding gear models just screw it up more. If you are in Naxx gear and going against Naxx geared people as a druid, if you aren't healing you will be gimp.
I didn't say refuse to heal. I said main attack and I also specifically said that anyone who can heal should heal when its wise. But shadow priests and feral druids (before raiding gear starts to mess things up) can be very very effective.A bear with 8k ac that crits 25% of time for 800 or more damage, can self heal, feral charge every 6 seconds for and intterupt and snare, and stun for 5 seconds and do all that at 115% run speed. And do all that from a nice position by stealth. Is able to stealth faster than normal people run etc. Anyway pre BWL gear you shouldn't underestimate either one.Of course once you start hitting BWl geared people you should give up on feral druid, The AQ peice gear is nice but its not good enough. The blues that could beat out MC gear won't match up to BWL gear and there are no real counterparts.Any druid knows druid itemization has always been screwed up and raiding gear models just screw it up more. If you are in Naxx gear and going against Naxx geared people as a druid, if you aren't healing you will be gimp.
well in my experience shadowpriests and feral druids usually don't heal, especially shadowpriests, if you agree that all healer classes should still heal then we are in agreement.
shadowpriests cannot heal in shadowform, feral druids can pop out and heal and as long as they do it i have no problem with it.
people need to learn to heal even if they are a hybrid class, that is all I'm saying. if you are a feral druid and pop out to heal people thats great....but a feral/moonkin druid or shadowpriest that refuses to heal (i see alot of them) help there team lose because nobody ends up getting healed.
Originally posted by LSDMiraculix German Realmpool 1: Alterac: Allianz > Horde (winning 9 of 10) Reason: Alterac Valley Heavily Favors Alliance. Ive played horde and alliannce at 60 in AV and have alliance friends that painfully admit it as well-FIXED! Arathi and WSG: Horde > Allianz (winning 7 of 10) Reason: Alliance cant help but ZERG everything. In WSG its especially bad when you see 6 Alliance run towards me to get the easy kill instead of stopping my flag carrier from running up ou ramp for the score and win-FIXED!
Originally posted by baphamet Originally posted by gestalt11I didn't say refuse to heal. I said main attack and I also specifically said that anyone who can heal should heal when its wise. But shadow priests and feral druids (before raiding gear starts to mess things up) can be very very effective.A bear with 8k ac that crits 25% of time for 800 or more damage, can self heal, feral charge every 6 seconds for and intterupt and snare, and stun for 5 seconds and do all that at 115% run speed. And do all that from a nice position by stealth. Is able to stealth faster than normal people run etc. Anyway pre BWL gear you shouldn't underestimate either one.Of course once you start hitting BWl geared people you should give up on feral druid, The AQ peice gear is nice but its not good enough. The blues that could beat out MC gear won't match up to BWL gear and there are no real counterparts.Any druid knows druid itemization has always been screwed up and raiding gear models just screw it up more. If you are in Naxx gear and going against Naxx geared people as a druid, if you aren't healing you will be gimp.well in my experience shadowpriests and feral druids usually don't heal, especially shadowpriests, if you agree that all healer classes should still heal then we are in agreement.shadowpriests cannot heal in shadowform, feral druids can pop out and heal and as long as they do it i have no problem with it.people need to learn to heal even if they are a hybrid class, that is all I'm saying. if you are a feral druid and pop out to heal people thats great....but a feral/moonkin druid or shadowpriest that refuses to heal (i see alot of them) help there team lose because nobody ends up getting healed.
Baphamet what class do you play?
I certainly hope you dont expect to get heals.
The way I play, I dont expect to get heals. If I do, Great. If I dont, Im not gonna crai about it. I play my class the way I see fit. I dont pay for the priest/shammy/druid's account so I cant expect them to heal me. They are not playing for my sole enjoyment.
Bandages, food, water, potions and tubers arent race specific, catch my drift?
Shamans and Shadow priests are usually very tight on mana as it is. They are using there mana for offensive spells. So to have enough mana to actually do alot of healing is one concern. Shamans are usually in the thick of the fight, getting beat on etc-- cant really expect them to heal you mid fight. Shadow priests are pretty soft targets and also very tight on mana.
My main is a warlock but I have a shaow priest as well. The only time I heal on my shadow priest is if healing is obviously beneficial to the fight. For example if Im on my shadow priest...Im in AB with a warrior...at Mine...and the warrior is more than half dead and is getting beat on by another class---well its in my best interest to keep the warrior up (2>1) hop out of shadow form and drop a few heals on him.
FYI-In the expansionshadow priests will be able to heal IN SHADOWFORM (If they take the talent)
I didn't say refuse to heal. I said main attack and I also specifically said that anyone who can heal should heal when its wise. But shadow priests and feral druids (before raiding gear starts to mess things up) can be very very effective.A bear with 8k ac that crits 25% of time for 800 or more damage, can self heal, feral charge every 6 seconds for and intterupt and snare, and stun for 5 seconds and do all that at 115% run speed. And do all that from a nice position by stealth. Is able to stealth faster than normal people run etc. Anyway pre BWL gear you shouldn't underestimate either one.Of course once you start hitting BWl geared people you should give up on feral druid, The AQ peice gear is nice but its not good enough. The blues that could beat out MC gear won't match up to BWL gear and there are no real counterparts.Any druid knows druid itemization has always been screwed up and raiding gear models just screw it up more. If you are in Naxx gear and going against Naxx geared people as a druid, if you aren't healing you will be gimp.
well in my experience shadowpriests and feral druids usually don't heal, especially shadowpriests, if you agree that all healer classes should still heal then we are in agreement.
shadowpriests cannot heal in shadowform, feral druids can pop out and heal and as long as they do it i have no problem with it.
people need to learn to heal even if they are a hybrid class, that is all I'm saying. if you are a feral druid and pop out to heal people thats great....but a feral/moonkin druid or shadowpriest that refuses to heal (i see alot of them) help there team lose because nobody ends up getting healed.
If you are playing main attack as a shadowpriest or feral druid you should only heal in emergencies or you aren't doing your job, which is to attack. But its often be wise to throw a little extra support when espeically when some other main attack is attacking and you are running up to the scene. Or just have extra mana in the case of a feral druid.
Should they heal? Yes. Should they heal all the time? No. If you are main attack and healing 50% of the time then you aren't main attack. Every heal they throw is time and mana that could be psent on attack. Throwing a key heal in an emergency can be a tide turner, which is one of the reasons they actually make good main attacks, but going much past that means you aren't getting good support not that the main attack should heal. You could even have two feral druid who constantly switched main attack and main support to confuse people. But that would n't mean they both healed at the same time. Only one would heal and only one would be attack. Although that could change at the drop of a hat.
You see it in Guild Wars all the time, peope purposely take Monk seconds and primaries so that the other time doesn't know who the primary healer is.
Anyway I'm not really syaing much new, any decent Guild Wars GvG board can expound on what I am saying to a much greater degree.
Note: this sort of stuff is far more developed in Guild Wars and the serious PvP community of Guild Wars. Its a good read as WoW BGs are very far behind in startegy and good teams going against good teams etc. Of coruse GW has much more variation than WoW can ever have due to the class model. But in general a lot of the principles still apply.
Originally posted by LSDMiraculix German Realmpool 1: Alterac: Allianz > Horde (winning 9 of 10) Reason: Alterac Valley Heavily Favors Alliance. Ive played horde and alliannce at 60 in AV and have alliance friends that painfully admit it as well-FIXED!
Arathi and WSG: Horde > Allianz (winning 7 of 10) Reason: Alliance cant help but ZERG everything. In WSG its especially bad when you see 6 Alliance run towards me to get the easy kill instead of stopping my flag carrier from running up ou ramp for the score and win-FIXED!
Well I don't know what to tell you, because I had max AV rep back in January and on my server Horde never lost one AV that I played in and i think I heard of them winning maybe once.
This was before this last big change to AV though.
The way I play, I dont expect to get heals. If I do, Great. If I dont, Im not gonna crai about it. I play my class the way I see fit. I dont pay for the priest/shammy/druid's account so I cant expect them to heal me. They are not playing for my sole enjoyment.
my main is a shaman. and let me make something clear i do not whine about anything in any BG i am just giving my opinion on the matter here.
if you want to play your class the way you want that is great, if that includes playing a healing class in a BG where you refuse to heal then you are helping your team lose, that is my opinion.
i don't expect anyone to heal me because they rarely do, but when you have nobody healing then your probably not going to win.
my point is a healing class that specialized itself to be a killer only is gimp because there are classes that are pure damage dealers that are better than you.
there are no shortage of warlocks, a shadowpriest is nothing but a gimp warlock when hes in shadowform...a feral druid is nothing but a gimp rogue when hes in cat form.
play your class the way you want I'm just giving my opinion, and i have never whined about it i just shake my head when i see people play a healer class and refuses to heal.
Originally posted by gestalt11 Should they heal? Yes. Should they heal all the time? No. If you are main attack and healing 50% of the time then you aren't main attack. Every heal they throw is time and mana that could be psent on attack. Throwing a key heal in an emergency can be a tide turner, which is one of the reasons they actually make good main attacks, but going much past that means you aren't getting good support not that the main attack should heal.
see heres the thing, yeah if they heal it will consume their time and mana for doing offensive spells or whatnot. but let me give you an example of why you should heal instead of using your offensive capability's witch are inferior to other pure offensive classes.
lets say its 5 of you and your team mates trying to take lumber mill...and they have 5 people defending and assuming you all of the same type of classes witch includes one healer on each side.
and lets say the healer on the other team is actually healing vs your teams healer just doing damage, what do you think is going to happen?
even if that one healer is a shadowpriest he will be able to keep that whole group alive while they streamroll the other group. sure you can go after the healer first and drop him, but how often does that happen in a PUG?
not everyone will go after that healer, usually they just zerg the first thing they see like morons. when i play my shaman in WSG or AB i always heal in situations like that and I'm a pure damage dealer with the spec i have right now.
yeah there are times when going totally offensive is the right thing to do, but to never heal? thats not a very smart thing to do for a healing class. (yes i know you said to heal sometimes, i was just reintegrating that point)
As i see it , yes allience tends to appeal the more immature due to its sexual oriented emotes. ne female dance, gnome male dance, and human male dance comes to mind. Having both a lv 60 tauren warrior on illidan and a lvl 60 ne druid on stormscale allows me to view how both communities are.
Both will have immature idiots who will yell and spam crap.
alliance: youll see alot of immaturity here, people wanting to be "commandos" "rambos" and whatever 1 man army star you can think of. As druids ill have other druids come to me and "hump me" (doing the /sit and /stand repeatedly). Few people were mature enough to make good groups work. and as stated, many healer types just dps, Dispite that my druid was (deleted my druid since i couldnt tolerate the alliance on that server) feral , i healed the warriors and other non healing classes when i could, this resulted on me being picked 1st by the horde since i did hinder their progress (good tactic by horde imo) Many times I oyoul say in raid to kill the shaman whos healing, or the priest, and of course im ignored. Few pallis would get into battle and heal (noticed these were protection spec.) most ret pallis think they can out dps everyone and run into the battle outnumbered.
horde: you still have some immaturity and a few 1 man army type people. I also did notice a bit of more elitist attitude with horde than with alliance. (you will noticed youll be critizied by your gear more on horde than allience) many people who play horde are more mature than allience. Horde chars have almost any sexual themed emotes, are fugly thus less people will "hit" on you if you roll a female char. Horde tends to listen more in groups (less mistakes in instances and in bgs.) healers do heal but still most of the times they will dps (shamans , druids (feral) and shadow priests) however when tactics are in motion (feral druid has the flag, other healers heal and warriors , and other dps classes do their best to slow down and hinder alliance from killing the druid or whoever has the flag. horde does use more items, (free action pots, healing pots, speed pots ect.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Originally posted by maxnrosy As i see it , yes allience tends to appeal the more immature due to its sexual oriented emotes. ne female dance, gnome male dance, and human male dance comes to mind. Having both a lv 60 tauren warrior on illidan and a lvl 60 ne druid on stormscale allows me to view how both communities are. Both will have immature idiots who will yell and spam crap.alliance: youll see alot of immaturity here, people wanting to be "commandos" "rambos" and whatever 1 man army star you can think of. As druids ill have other druids come to me and "hump me" (doing the /sit and /stand repeatedly). Few people were mature enough to make good groups work. and as stated, many healer types just dps, Dispite that my druid was (deleted my druid since i couldnt tolerate the alliance on that server) feral , i healed the warriors and other non healing classes when i could, this resulted on me being picked 1st by the horde since i did hinder their progress (good tactic by horde imo) Many times I oyoul say in raid to kill the shaman whos healing, or the priest, and of course im ignored. Few pallis would get into battle and heal (noticed these were protection spec.) most ret pallis think they can out dps everyone and run into the battle outnumbered. horde: you still have some immaturity and a few 1 man army type people. I also did notice a bit of more elitist attitude with horde than with alliance. (you will noticed youll be critizied by your gear more on horde than allience)many people who play horde are more mature than allience. Horde chars have almost any sexual themed emotes, are fugly thus less people will "hit" on you if you roll a female char.Horde tends to listen more in groups (less mistakes in instances and in bgs.) healers do heal but still most of the times they will dps (shamans , druids (feral) and shadow priests) however when tactics are in motion (feral druid has the flag, other healers heal and warriors , and other dps classes do their best to slow down and hinder alliance from killing the druid or whoever has the flag. horde does use more items, (free action pots, healing pots, speed pots ect.
i agree, thats pretty much how it is...nice post IMO
Because Paladins want to be DPSadins and therefore lose about 80% of their usefullness in pvp situations...shamans almost never fill their full potential in pvp either, but at least they can dish out good dps when specced for it.
Oh, that and alliance pugs usually consist of 4 hunters AT LEAST...such group imbalance is bad for you
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Kyleran My son has a character in a level 29 Twink alliance guild..and they win most of the time. With consistant players and cooperation it can be done. But otherwise it goes pretty much as mentioned... WSG/AB belong to the horde... AV to the alliance.
because Blizzard ****ed up. Hey lets have 2 sides, and one side win 90% of the time! That wouldn't stood for in warcraft 3, why the hell is it stood for in WoW.
Originally posted by nomadian because Blizzard ****ed up. Hey lets have 2 sides, and one side win 90% of the time! That wouldn't stood for in warcraft 3, why the hell is it stood for in WoW.
Yea, because Blizzard is fixing the matches...moron...
And if you look at it Blizz favors the alliance more.
They don't always win BGs. It's complicated to explain, but basically they mostly win WSG/AB because the Alliance people know that. That the Horde is gonna win. It's a phsychological effect, since people expect to lose, they will...
SQUEAK. --(The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
Originally posted by KnThrak They don't always win BGs. It's complicated to explain, but basically they mostly win WSG/AB because the Alliance people know that. That the Horde is gonna win. It's a phsychological effect, since people expect to lose, they will...
i think that is a good point and has something to do with it, but i think it is more of a "I'm going to do what i want and farm hk's" mentality.
i try my ass off when i am playing my NE warrior, i never get healed...and i mean never, and just see people arguing in the BG chat about this or that.
i think alot of things contribute to it, all i know is it is freaking anoying and if i didn't like pvp so much i would never do it.
You must be having serious communication /co-operation problems on your server if horde seldom wins in AV there, this week alone I was in 10 AV's and as horde we only lost 2.
Comments
shadowpriest and feral druids in a bg are gimp, yeah in world pvp or duels they are good but I'm talking about bg's. the only exception would be if you had alot of healers already but that is never the case, if nobody heals in a bg your team is done for usually.
the point you seem to be making is paladin arnt efficient killers like shaman,shadowpriest,feral druid.....and while that may or may not be accurate i cant really say because i have never played a paladin.
i know some paladin that can drop the hammer down on some people that is for sure, but what i think is far more important is the fact that these specs arnt healing in bg's thats the true problem and when you are a healing class and not healing, you are helping your team lose.
As a former feral druid I disagree with what you say (up to MC level gear, past MC gear feral druids start to suck) about fearl druids and shadow priests.
But let us leave that aside as it is not germane to my argument. My argument is not that eitehr one is effective, but rather that when a shaman adheres to a purely offensive startegy and when a paladin adheres to purely offensive strategy the shaman. The shaman will be less gimp.
They may both, in fact, be gimp. But what I am arguing is a matter of degrees.
The corrolary to this is that a lot of people who play both paladins and shamans adhere to a purely offesnive strategy especially in PUGs.
So PUGs on both sides tend to be gimp. But the Horde PUG are somewhat less gimp due to the nature of Shamans.
Shaman are offensive hybrids. Paladisn are defensive hybrids. There is a significant trend for players of both classes to go on offense to an inadvisiable degree and/or in an inadvisiable manner.
The offensively minded dumb paladin is less effective than the offensively minded dumb shaman.
Both sides have dumb people. There are dumb people in all classes. But for paladins specifically one of the common trends of "dumbness" (ie. run up and bash stuff by jamming your attack feats) penalizes them more than other classes.
What is more effective running up to some guy and spamming shocks or running up and spamming daminging judgements? Look they are both dumb, but shock spam is more effective. If the players were smart both shocks and judgements can be used to great effectiveness.
But we are not talking about smart play.
What is one of the most common occurances of dumb play? The idiots who just runs up and spams. We have all seen it probably. But a shaman who spams shocks can do 2 debuffs and 1000 or more damage in 6 seconds.
Smart paladins are forimidable both offensively and defensively (with in limits). But dumb offensive paladins really are not trheatening at all. Whereas shock spam can kill you if it happens at the wrong time. Even if the guy is a complete idiot and dying all the time and going OOM all the time, you always gotta be at least somewhat worried about the 1000 shock, 6 seconds, shock. That could easily be two interrupts or slow you for a long time, and even one crit bumps that up to 1500. Add in spell damage and it gets worse. Any dumb shaman can do this. I think I could train a parrot to do it.
Basically dumb paladins tend to penalize alliance more than dumb shaman penalize Horde. Once you start talking about two teams with non-dumb people it becomes completely different.
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While people always accuse Alliaince members of not listening this is not the reasonw why they lose. The reason is plain and simple age/experience. Horde are going to be typically more experienced at the game. When a younger player first starts WoW they are going to find the allaince more attractive than the horde because the horde embellish evil. ugly creatures. It is typically not till a player loses interest in the allaince that they make a horde char. Resulting in more experience in gameplay.
While there are exceptions to this, think about it; what is a 12 year old more likely to choose as a character a heroic looking allaince member or a big ugly cow?
i can agree with that but i still think healing class that refuse to heal in battlegrounds regardless of the class is helping their team lose, we will have to agree to disagree on that point.
rogues do more damage than feral druids and warlocks do more damage than shadowpriests....and there are plenty of them to go around, however healers are hard to come by.
Bottom line: Teamwork
The Horde are, for the most part, much more coordinated than the Alliance. The Alliance run around like chickens with their heads cut off, never listening to even the most basic and rational attack / defend plans.
You almost always see Horde fighting as a team, you almost never see Alliance doing it. I constantly hear remarks from Alliance players like, "Defense is fo n00bs stfu!" or "We are going to lose anyways, why bother?" I often wonder if Horde talks like that. Aggrivating as all hell I must say.
Sure, Shamans are "IWIN" in PvP, but good teamwork wins anyday over some twinked gank squad.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
i can agree with that but i still think healing class that refuse to heal in battlegrounds regardless of the class is helping their team lose, we will have to agree to disagree on that point.
rogues do more damage than feral druids and warlocks do more damage than shadowpriests....and there are plenty of them to go around, however healers are hard to come by.
I didn't say refuse to heal. I said main attack and I also specifically said that anyone who can heal should heal when its wise. But shadow priests and feral druids (before raiding gear starts to mess things up) can be very very effective.
A bear with 8k ac that crits 25% of time for 800 or more damage, can self heal, feral charge every 6 seconds for and intterupt and snare, and stun for 5 seconds and do all that at 115% run speed. And do all that from a nice position by stealth. Is able to stealth faster than normal people run etc. Anyway pre BWL gear you shouldn't underestimate either one.
Of course once you start hitting BWl geared people you should give up on feral druid, The AQ peice gear is nice but its not good enough. The blues that could beat out MC gear won't match up to BWL gear and there are no real counterparts.
Any druid knows druid itemization has always been screwed up and raiding gear models just screw it up more. If you are in Naxx gear and going against Naxx geared people as a druid, if you aren't healing you will be gimp.
well in my experience shadowpriests and feral druids usually don't heal, especially shadowpriests, if you agree that all healer classes should still heal then we are in agreement.
shadowpriests cannot heal in shadowform, feral druids can pop out and heal and as long as they do it i have no problem with it.
people need to learn to heal even if they are a hybrid class, that is all I'm saying. if you are a feral druid and pop out to heal people thats great....but a feral/moonkin druid or shadowpriest that refuses to heal (i see alot of them) help there team lose because nobody ends up getting healed.
Baphamet what class do you play?
I certainly hope you dont expect to get heals.
The way I play, I dont expect to get heals. If I do, Great. If I dont, Im not gonna crai about it. I play my class the way I see fit. I dont pay for the priest/shammy/druid's account so I cant expect them to heal me. They are not playing for my sole enjoyment.
Bandages, food, water, potions and tubers arent race specific, catch my drift?
Shamans and Shadow priests are usually very tight on mana as it is.
They are using there mana for offensive spells. So to have enough mana to actually do alot of healing is one concern. Shamans are usually in the thick of the fight, getting beat on etc-- cant really expect them to heal you mid fight. Shadow priests are pretty soft targets and also very tight on mana.
My main is a warlock but I have a shaow priest as well. The only time I heal on my shadow priest is if healing is obviously beneficial to the fight. For example if Im on my shadow priest...Im in AB with a warrior...at Mine...and the warrior is more than half dead and is getting beat on by another class---well its in my best interest to keep the warrior up (2>1) hop out of shadow form and drop a few heals on him.
FYI-In the expansionshadow priests will be able to heal
Should they heal? Yes. Should they heal all the time? No. If you are main attack and healing 50% of the time then you aren't main attack. Every heal they throw is time and mana that could be psent on attack. Throwing a key heal in an emergency can be a tide turner, which is one of the reasons they actually make good main attacks, but going much past that means you aren't getting good support not that the main attack should heal. You could even have two feral druid who constantly switched main attack and main support to confuse people. But that would n't mean they both healed at the same time. Only one would heal and only one would be attack. Although that could change at the drop of a hat.
You see it in Guild Wars all the time, peope purposely take Monk seconds and primaries so that the other time doesn't know who the primary healer is.
Anyway I'm not really syaing much new, any decent Guild Wars GvG board can expound on what I am saying to a much greater degree.
Note: this sort of stuff is far more developed in Guild Wars and the serious PvP community of Guild Wars. Its a good read as WoW BGs are very far behind in startegy and good teams going against good teams etc. Of coruse GW has much more variation than WoW can ever have due to the class model. But in general a lot of the principles still apply.
Well I don't know what to tell you, because I had max AV rep back in January and on my server Horde never lost one AV that I played in and i think I heard of them winning maybe once.
This was before this last big change to AV though.
my main is a shaman. and let me make something clear i do not whine about anything in any BG i am just giving my opinion on the matter here.
if you want to play your class the way you want that is great, if that includes playing a healing class in a BG where you refuse to heal then you are helping your team lose, that is my opinion.
i don't expect anyone to heal me because they rarely do, but when you have nobody healing then your probably not going to win.
my point is a healing class that specialized itself to be a killer only is gimp because there are classes that are pure damage dealers that are better than you.
there are no shortage of warlocks, a shadowpriest is nothing but a gimp warlock when hes in shadowform...a feral druid is nothing but a gimp rogue when hes in cat form.
play your class the way you want I'm just giving my opinion, and i have never whined about it i just shake my head when i see people play a healer class and refuses to heal.
see heres the thing, yeah if they heal it will consume their time and mana for doing offensive spells or whatnot. but let me give you an example of why you should heal instead of using your offensive capability's witch are inferior to other pure offensive classes.
lets say its 5 of you and your team mates trying to take lumber mill...and they have 5 people defending and assuming you all of the same type of classes witch includes one healer on each side.
and lets say the healer on the other team is actually healing vs your teams healer just doing damage, what do you think is going to happen?
even if that one healer is a shadowpriest he will be able to keep that whole group alive while they streamroll the other group. sure you can go after the healer first and drop him, but how often does that happen in a PUG?
not everyone will go after that healer, usually they just zerg the first thing they see like morons. when i play my shaman in WSG or AB i always heal in situations like that and I'm a pure damage dealer with the spec i have right now.
yeah there are times when going totally offensive is the right thing to do, but to never heal? thats not a very smart thing to do for a healing class. (yes i know you said to heal sometimes, i was just reintegrating that point)
Both will have immature idiots who will yell and spam crap.
alliance: youll see alot of immaturity here, people wanting to be "commandos" "rambos" and whatever 1 man army star you can think of. As druids ill have other druids come to me and "hump me" (doing the /sit and /stand repeatedly). Few people were mature enough to make good groups work. and as stated, many healer types just dps, Dispite that my druid was (deleted my druid since i couldnt tolerate the alliance on that server) feral , i healed the warriors and other non healing classes when i could, this resulted on me being picked 1st by the horde since i did hinder their progress (good tactic by horde imo) Many times I oyoul say in raid to kill the shaman whos healing, or the priest, and of course im ignored. Few pallis would get into battle and heal (noticed these were protection spec.) most ret pallis think they can out dps everyone and run into the battle outnumbered.
horde: you still have some immaturity and a few 1 man army type people. I also did notice a bit of more elitist attitude with horde than with alliance. (you will noticed youll be critizied by your gear more on horde than allience)
many people who play horde are more mature than allience. Horde chars have almost any sexual themed emotes, are fugly thus less people will "hit" on you if you roll a female char.
Horde tends to listen more in groups (less mistakes in instances and in bgs.) healers do heal but still most of the times they will dps (shamans , druids (feral) and shadow priests) however when tactics are in motion (feral druid has the flag, other healers heal and warriors , and other dps classes do their best to slow down and hinder alliance from killing the druid or whoever has the flag. horde does use more items, (free action pots, healing pots, speed pots ect.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
To sum it all up why horde wins alot in PvP is because of the player.
The alliance is fille with little kids that know nothing of teamowrok and stragtigy.(pardon my mispellings)
The horde is mostly older and more mature players. This can also been seen in the AH market.
Most items in AH are cheaper on Horde than Alliance because horde does't have all the little greedy kids.
i agree, thats pretty much how it is...nice post IMO
Because Paladins want to be DPSadins and therefore lose about 80% of their usefullness in pvp situations...shamans almost never fill their full potential in pvp either, but at least they can dish out good dps when specced for it.
Oh, that and alliance pugs usually consist of 4 hunters AT LEAST...such group imbalance is bad for you
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Don't wanna be an A-hole but they're TWINKS!
Seriosly tho, Horde have WSG and AB.
Allies got AV.
Yea, because Blizzard is fixing the matches...moron...
And if you look at it Blizz favors the alliance more.
SQUEAK.
--(The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
I don't think you fully understood my point, I would also urge you learn a little bit of respect.
i think that is a good point and has something to do with it, but i think it is more of a "I'm going to do what i want and farm hk's" mentality.
i try my ass off when i am playing my NE warrior, i never get healed...and i mean never, and just see people arguing in the BG chat about this or that.
i think alot of things contribute to it, all i know is it is freaking anoying and if i didn't like pvp so much i would never do it.
You must be having serious communication /co-operation problems on your server if horde seldom wins in AV there, this week alone I was in 10 AV's and as horde we only lost 2.