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End game?
Loben
Member CommonPosts: 206
I just started looking at this game recently, and I'm not exactly clear on what the game will be like longer term. I assume since it's level based and has raids, the ultimate goal is to raid similar to WoW or EQ2? I like a lot of the features, but after playing a number of raid based end game mmos, I can't say I'm too eager to get another one.
I know they say only a small portion of your gear will come from raids. Doesn't this just mean you still have to raid to get that portion? If you choose not to raid, what would you be left doing after you finish leveling? It looks like nice game, just please tell me the end game isn't raiding.
I know they say only a small portion of your gear will come from raids. Doesn't this just mean you still have to raid to get that portion? If you choose not to raid, what would you be left doing after you finish leveling? It looks like nice game, just please tell me the end game isn't raiding.
Comments
The end game is not necessarily raiding. While raiding is an option there will be much more content to VSoH. It is difficulty to explain a game that doesn't not perfectly mimic an already pre-released MMOG.
As reading VSoH forums ,FAQs, and other websites, it's my belief that this game will be unique in that particular aspect, ATM I can't say specifically one way or the other but I can say that this topic has not slipped their minds and will be addressed. Just not sure on how or if it will result in a better "end game era". Noticing the depth and concern they've addressed past failures in MMOGs I think they would leave this out of topic.
But who are we kidding, end game will be repeative grind of the same content over and over. Companies cannot put out content faster than we can consume it. So to keep you paying month after month, they add time sinks, like grinding. Personally, I think the raiding debate is a waste of time, lets assume you can solo everything in Vanguard, the real question is am I going to have to do the same content over and over. The answer is most likely yes.
You can relax, you will be able to gear up in a number of different ways that don't require you to raid. A non raid player will be as well equipped as a raider, he just won't have the same gear as a raider.
It won't be any less desirable or effective.
As for longevity, Sigil are taking steps to ensure that the game does not suffer from lack of it. They have said they will continually add new content to the game, they are applying measures to either slow players down or to give them something else to commit their time to (3 spheres of content for example) and they have said, time and again, that they will be constantly updating starter areas so that they have a place in the game at all stages; they will not let them get stale and underused.
Sigil have watched other games, that have come before, and they are understanding of the problems associated with them. They are keen to learn and avoid the mistakes of the past.
As for people skipping to the end of the game and having nothing to do; well that is primarily the fault of the player concerned. If they chose to avoid the content that ois provided them and plough through the levels then they have noone to blame but themselves of having a lack of things to do. Sigil aredoing their bit in adding a wealth of content in an unparalled size world; unparalled in terms of content to world size (other games have had size but not the content to go with it). If you read around the statements from Sigil and follow the links on Aradunes post (another thread here) you will see for yourself.
Judging a game that you just wish to dislike, for no particular reason, is not fair on newcomers who may come here to find about about Vanguard. You said 'the answer is most likely yes' suggesting that you do not know. Provide facts or make people clear that it is an opinion.
.
Everything is an opinion. I don't dislike or like this game, so please don't make my opinions for me. I am merly pointing out a fundamental flaw in MMORPGs, that we can consume content faster than the developers can create it. Unless, and Vanguard has done it in spades, the developers add time sinks to slow us down.
You missed the point, and it is not the fault of the developers, if you go through ever single mission, every single dungeon, every single thing, that you will still be able to out pace the addition on new content. It's is just not possible, unless, you put in place non-consumable content.
My complaint is not with Vanguard: SoH, Sigil, or even Brad, it is with an industry that can't come up with anything better than a random drop timesink. Be in a raid, a group, or solo. Nothing I have read, and maybe I haven't read as much as you, tells me that they are going to do anything different than any other MMORPG. Yes, you can quote all the developer comments you want, but the fundamentals of the game are the same: classes, levels, quests, dungeons, and raids. Plus, the key to every RPG, random drops.
D
Edit: I thought MMORPG had a bad editor, apparently it was not as bad as it could be.
The end game most definately will be raiding and little else. Don't be fooled by a lot of smoke and mirrors hype.
Of course people will tell you that you don't have to raid. And of course that's true. But you will be a very bored and very gimped player if you don't raid.
Don't buy that garbage about "some of the best items can be obtained without raiding." In Vanguard they are very concerned with keeping raiders happy. Have you EVER seen a raider joyfully agreeing that non-raiders should be allowed to get raid quality items? If they ever had a single group dungeon or solo quest that resulted in raid quality rewards the raiders would storm Sigil headquarters and tar and feather Brad (the lead developer).
That stuff about "some of the best items" is just hype. In another post on this very board the lead developer contradicts himself on this subject. On the one hand he spins some hype for casuals and non-raiders with this "not all of the best stuff comes from raiding" line. And later he says that solo and small group gear won't cut it in a raiding area. Um.....wait a minute, if it's topnotch gear just like the raiders get then why wouldn't it cut it in a raiding area?
You can figure this game out with a fairly simple chain of logic.
1. They want to support raiding at the endgame. This is a fact that everyone can agree on.
2. People won't go on raids unless the rewards are better than the rewards obtainable through any other activity. Most people will agree that this is true, including raiders.
So...in order to support raiding at the endgame the rewards for raiding must be better than the rewards for any other playstyle.
Ok, so now consider this. If the rewards from raiding have to be better than the rewards from any other playstyle, how do you prevent other playstyles from getting raid quality rewards?
Simple, you cap their progression much lower than that of raiders. So what happens to a non-raider when he/she hits that progression cap? He/she runs out of things to do. They can't allow non-raiders to continue to get upgrades or their upgrades will begin to approach raid quality. If their upgrades reach raid quality the raiders lose motivation to raid because they see that they could get just as good gear without putting up with all the boredom of raids and all the BS of raiding guilds.
So yeah, if you play Vanguard and you don't want to raid then there will come that day when you hit the wall and can no longer progress your character. Your equipment WILL be far below the quality of raid equipment.
You will be second rate and left standing around with nothing to do and at that point you'll have to decide if you will start farming raids with a big guild or leave the game.
Everything is an opinion. I don't dislike or like this game, so please don't make my opinions for me. I am merly pointing out a fundamental flaw in MMORPGs, that we can consume content faster than the developers can create it. Unless, and Vanguard has done it in spades, the developers add time sinks to slow us down.
You missed the point, and it is not the fault of the developers, if you go through ever single mission, every single dungeon, every single thing, that you will still be able to out pace the addition on new content. It's is just not possible, unless, you put in place non-consumable content.
My complaint is not with Vanguard: SoH, Sigil, or even Brad, it is with an industry that can't come up with anything better than a random drop timesink. Be in a raid, a group, or solo. Nothing I have read, and maybe I haven't read as much as you, tells me that they are going to do anything different than any other MMORPG. Yes, you can quote all the developer comments you want, but the fundamentals of the game are the same: classes, levels, quests, dungeons, and raids. Plus, the key to every RPG, random drops.
D
Edit: I thought MMORPG had a bad editor, apparently it was not as bad as it could be.
But without the random drops how will they get that yummy, addictive goodness? If it makes mice push buttons over and over how can you go wrong?
Quite a house of cards you've hitched your star to neanderthal. Your argument depends on the fact that raiding isnt fun. Me personaly i don't care how fun crafting is, i'd much rather be hunting with my crew killing stuff than harvesting materials for hours on end and spending another few hours on a combine.(or however they are gonna make crafting uber items happen). As long as raids are at least as good as craftable gear, there will be plenty of raiders out there. Also throw in the fact that both high end crafting and high end raiding should both be time intensive. If it takes 30 days time played to be equiped and skilled enough to take on end game raids, i want around the same time involved from a crafter.
Really i hope it comes down to what people find fun about this game. Powers that be have allready stated that, unless you devote time to all 3 spheres, you probably wont be completly progressed as a player period. even the raiders.
we wont know for sure for a few more months.
so 80% of the content wont be small group content? they are lying and the content is actually 80% raid? and if that isn't what you are saying then why would someone be bored if 80% of the content is grouping?
i stopped reading your post after this statement because honestly, if you think they are so FOS and flat out lying about the content that will be in the game then i don't really know what els to say.
I'm going to take their word for it that there will indeed be 80% group content at this point and not listen to some dood on the internet that thinks they are just flat out lying.
You mean because I said nobody will go on raids if raiding doesn't yield rewards which are better than the rewards from all other playstyles?
Don't play dumb. You know as well as I do that raiding proponents are the ones who started saying that and they've been beating non-raiders over the heads with it for years. It's one of the main arguments that raiders themselves use to explain why raiding has to be rewarded with the best stuff. If you're really bored you could go dig through old threads on the Vanguard boards and see raiders saying this, it's their logic not mine. If you could go through every post that was ever posted on the Vanguard boards I bet you you would see this argument used by raiders at least several thousand times.
And you know what? It's true. If raiding didn't result in the best rewards (better than anything you could get without raiding) then nobody would go on raids. I know it's true, you know it's true, anyone reading this knows that it's true. Why start pretending now that it's not true? Just so you can argue with me? I'm sure you could find other ways to argue with me.
80% of the content might very well be group content. But that alone doesn't tell you much about the endgame. The game has 50 levels, right? 40 levels would be 80% of that right? So if most of the content for the first 40 levels was designed for small groups then they could say that 80% of the game is small group content and it would be true. But that doesn't tell you what happens when you reach max level.
And even if 80% of the max level content is group content, if it doesn't allow you to progress there wouldn't be any motivation in doing it. If the only way to progress is through raiding then even if the high level content really was only 20% raiding it would be the only content anyone does at high levels.
Or they could have some other types of content at high levels but link it to raiding so that it's just a sort of peripheral activity for raiders. For example, high level crafting lets you make neato gear...but to make the gear you have to go on raids to collect components. And if you've read anything about Vanguard you know they have talked about this sort of thing in regards to crafting.
So ok, they can brag up their crafting but in the end all it really amounts to is raid, raid, raid for components and then hand them to the guild crafter to do the combine and you get your uber gear.
And they can have group content that, for example, let's you get an item that you need to finish a quest that gets you a key which lets you into a raid area. And then they can say, "See! high level group content!" When in reality the only people interested in doing it would be raiders.
What I'm getting at is when they throw out that <80% group content!!!> line it really doesn't mean anything. It's just hype. It's just a vague reference to try to coax non-raiders or less hardcore players into the game.
this has already been addressed and i can dig up the quote for you if you like, where brad says 80% of the content, regardless of level is small group content.
I'm not disputing anything els you are saying, if you absolutely refuse to raid but insist on having all the best items in the game then you have a problem.
but i don't think someone that doesn't raid will be bored at endgame, thats what i am disagreeing with. alot of people will be just fine not having all the best stuff in the game, as long as they can still progress with their character and as long as the small group content is indeed 80% from lvl 1-50 and beyond.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1401499&postcount=194
Bascially Brad said the best loot will come from all endgame playstyles. From raiding, grouping, solo/casual, diplomacy, crafting, time contigious efforts and more.
Here is Brad's post below:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the quotes. I did some
searching and have saved this off now so I can answer again as I'm sure
this will rightfully continue to pop up as more and more people come to
find out more about Vanguard:
Will the best loot come only from raids?
Aradune Mithara: No. Many of them will, but many will also be available
to groups. Often the very best items will require a long time
commitment, but these commitments shouldn't have to always be
contiguous. In other words, say it requires 12 hours of adventuring to
obtain a powerful item. In some extreme cases, this could require a
raid, or even a group and it could take you all day to complete. In
other cases, however, the 12 hours can be broken up into three 4 hour
chunks, where the quest or encounter route for the item is broken up
into fourths, such that after you achieve 1/4 of the quest or route,
you can save, re-group the next day, and then finish up another 3 hour
chunk.
I've posted quite a bit on this months ago and encourage your and
anyone interested to dig up the posts (some have been re-posted in this
thread already -- thanks guys). In a nutshell, we want the best items
to be available though a variety of routes: raids, long contiguous
adventures, broken up adventures, trade skills, diplomacy, etc. The
only potentially controversial aspect of this is that is likely that
not ALL of the best items you might want will be available through only
one of these methods. If you are a person who wants ALL of the best
stuff, you'll have to involve yourself in all of the above, including
raiding and long contiguous adventures, even though the majority of
content, including that which yields great rewards, will be group
oriented.
Essentially, if you want it all (whether items or abilities or spells
or whatever), you pretty much have to DO it all as well. I do stress,
however, that to be a powerful and effective player, you don't have to
do it all. What I'm talking about is the subset of players who, from a
personal preference, decide they have to have all of the best gear of
every type, for every situation, etc.
So, and hopefully more to your point, if you focus on the casual
content in the game, you will find/buy items that make you better, and
as you level up, acquire wealth, skills, etc. you will find better
equipment, and should feel a sense of accomplishment.
But that equipment most likely wouldn't cut it in a grouping region,
and most certainly not in a raid area. Those mobs are harder, more
situational, and don't just require more attention when playing (making
sure you counter that spell, etc.), but also require that you have
items that are at least close to the level range of the group dungeon
you are in.
It can't really be any other way. If you want to only be casual, you
will progress, but as I've said in the past, you won't have the same
stuff as the guy who groups, or who raids. Same with the other spheres
and how much time you invest.
All that said, and here's where I risk some wrath, the most powerful
items will likely require skill, challenge, risk, and contiguous time
commitments involving a lot of people. The reason is that by putting
all of those challenges together, you get a bigger challenge. The
additional commitment to stay on those extra hours, the organizational
skills necessary to lead and organize a large group of people, etc.
There's still something to be said about all of that, even though it
will be the minority of content, as per what I've commented on in the
past.
That’s not clear and seems contradictory: please elaborate:
Aradune Mithara: What's key here is that the best items should come
from experiences where there was the greatest risk vs. reward and time
commitment (plus, there's always luck -- being in the right place at
the right time, etc.).
Some of the best items will come from conventional raiding (large
groups of people participating in long contiguous adventures). Some
will come from long adventures consisting of less people and more
importantly, while a lot of time will have to be invested, the content
will be such that all of that time doesn't have to be contiguous.
Some also will come from the other spheres, but much of the same
applies: the best components harvested and then used later to craft the
best items will be very rare and in very dangerous locations. Some of
it may require long contiguous time commitments, while others will be
obtainable by completing several shorter contiguous adventures.
So I guess I'm still not totally sure what exactly you are asking here....
Will you be able to collect ALL of the best gear in the game without
going on conventional raids and/or without trading/buying gear obtained
from conventional raids? No.
Will you be able to obtain some of the very best gear without
participating in conventional raids and/or buying gear obtained via
conventional raiding? Absolutely.
If your desire is to be able to obtain any and all gear without ever
having to raid or buy equipment obtained via raiding, then Vanguard may
not be for you. But if you are content with obtaining some subset of
the best gear without raiding or buying raid dropped equipment (or
items created via crafting from harvested components obtained via
raiding), then I think Vanguard will be fine for you.
Really, if you want the option of obtaining any item in the game period
without buying/trading for it, you'll need to involve yourself in all
aspects of the game, not just raiding. You'll need to level up in
harvesting/crafting, level up in diplomacy, experience the higher end
grouping dungeons and such, and also have the tenacity and patience to
invest quite a bit of time in the game in general, as going on a high
level adventure, whether group or raid oriented, doesn't guarantee that
you will obtain that item you seek anyway. Someone else might get the
item, or the item might not be available each and every time anyway, as
perhaps the rare spawn that drops that item, or rare harvestable, just
isn't around that night, or the quest that triggers a sequence of
encounter segments that leads to that 'golden' boss mob might already
be taken by another group, or even the mob or switch or item or
whatever flags you and your group as being able to participate on the
encounter segment might not be 'up' either.
Bottom line: if you want it all, you have to be willing to participate
in all aspects of the game, especially if you are not willing to
buy/trade and participate in the player driven economy, and when I say
'all' of the game, that would include the raids as well.
Does this answer your question? If not, I will try to explain further.
Please explain further – that doesn’t necessarily seem consistent:
Aradune Mithara: No, I think my posts were consistent, although perhaps
not as clear as they could have been. Some of the best items will only
be obtainable via raiding, other best items through grouping, and
others through special casual areas, and others through the other
spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).
Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense:
1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best
AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high
level group zone
2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone
3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3).
4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come
from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then
also require a high level harvester to actually collect the scales in
the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to be
able to use it and other components to actually create the Red
Dragonscale Breastplate
5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that
enables you access to the throne room in New Targonor may come from a
series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items,
and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy
sphere.
Were a person to absolutely insist on obtaining all 5 of these
hypothetical items above, he would have to either a. engage in all 5
activities to some significant extent, as well as work with others in
most of the examples or b. buy/trade for them, assuming they are items
that are tradable.
__________________
If I understand well, at release...
About 50% of the best gear will be group-earned.
About 15% of the best gear will be tradeskill-earned. (big solo component)
About 15% of the best gear will be diplomacy-earned. (big solo component)
About 20% of the best gear will be raid-earned.
A toon without raid gear will hypothetically be 90% of the stats of someone who involve in everything (20% of your gear will have about half the stats of the raid-gear). Been 90% of someone else leave you at a rough estimate of 60-80% of their capacity and they desireness(90% of their hps, 90% of their damage output, 90% of the regen capabilities, taking 110% of the damage and so on), so you will be backward compared to someone who earn everything. Now, the way it is built, it is sure that non-raiders can't earn raid-stuff...while raiders can earn everything else. Also, expect the game to lean toward raiding with every expension, as the peoples who doesn't bear this unfairness will leave/remain quiet and the vocal communities will want MORE to be geared toward raiding...so it will become exponentially in favor of raiding...at the expanse of the grouping gameplay, as groupers will lose the most dedicated members to grouping first and eventually more and more of the groupers will just go away.
I also believe that the guild will be elitists and scorning on non-members, so non-raiders will find themselves not only at a disadvantage in gear, but also with the option of grouping peoples with good gear. So if you don't raid, you are yourself 60-80% of what a raider is, but so are most peoples in your group...80% X 80% X 80% X 80% X 80% X 80% = about 26% of a group composed with raiders...and I take the 80% formulae which is quite generous indeed, as it is closer to 60%...which would in turn be under 5% of a raiding-geared group. As you can see, a group composed of peoples who doesn't raid have somewhere between 5% and 26% of the might of a group composed of peoples who raid...quite unfair since we are talking about peoples commited to grouping vs peoples who will leave a group as soon as a raid option shows up. IMO, the strongest group at facing a group challenged should be...peoples who are dedicated to grouping, but it doesn't seem to be the opinion of everyone.
Raiding is killing grouping.
The grouping game in Vanguard is like the PvE game in DAoC pre-Gaheris. It is possible, but it is discouraged by rewarding other peoples in other gameplays at the expanse of the gameplay itself.
*The % are estimation and are not accurate...yet, they are the best estimation I could made based on official press release and messages gathered from their devs here and there.
** The evolution with further release expansion and as time grow is based on the game orientation and how other games evolve with similar condition and orientations. Someone can take EQ, EQ2, WoW or FFXI as a direct example...or could take DAoC as long as you replace raiding with PvP, yet, PvP isn't as bad on grouping PvE as raiding is.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
there is also gear to be gotten by soloing, witch you did not include in your "figures". either way it is pure speculation and your guess is as good as anyone els's on exactly what % of loot is attained from each type of gameplay.
it is also pure speculation at this point to assume how much better any said raid item is apposed to a small group item.
It is written that the Ultimate sword of uberness won't be found in a casual area. Now, unless they start contradicting themselves, solo will not have any "best" reward directly. As you saw, I include tradeskills and diplomacy, which will be done mostly...soloing. So soloing will have it rewards...indirectly.
But the point of my post was not about the specific % and I even include a notion about it.
I was showing how raiding kills grouping...and it is quite safe to say that AT LEAST 20% of the best gear will be raid-acquired only.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
It is written that the Ultimate sword of uberness won't be found in a casual area. Now, unless they start contradicting themselves, solo will not have any "best" reward directly. As you saw, I include tradeskills and diplomacy, which will be done mostly...soloing. So soloing will have it rewards...indirectly.
But the point of my post was not about the specific % and I even include a notion about it.
I was showing how raiding kills grouping...and it is quite safe to say that AT LEAST 20% of the best gear will be raid-acquired only.
i can quote brad directly where he says there is indeed items you can get from soloing (like doing a long quest chain that is soloable) that are considered "best items".
don't know how many or anything like that but he did say there will be items like that. i know your point wasn't that the % you listed were accurate, i was just making sure you knew that what you were stating was pure speculation at this point.
nobody knows exactly what % of all the high end items will come from each sphere or type of content, i mean yeah if you want to say since 20% of the content is raid/solo then that is the % of items you will not have if you don't participate in those areas.
but then again, using that logic then small group content will have 80% of the best items in the game because that is the % of content at end game.
its all speculation at this point, no its not safe to say that at least 20% of the best items in the game will come from raiding just because thats how much content there is vs small group content.
it could very well be more it can be less, i was just clearing that up for you. please proceed with your argument that raiding kills grouping....i have literally read hundreds of posts where you argue that point, i have no desire to discuss that with you any longer and if you feel that way fine, i just get sick of reading it.
It is written that the Ultimate sword of uberness won't be found in a casual area. Now, unless they start contradicting themselves, solo will not have any "best" reward directly. As you saw, I include tradeskills and diplomacy, which will be done mostly...soloing. So soloing will have it rewards...indirectly.
But the point of my post was not about the specific % and I even include a notion about it.
I was showing how raiding kills grouping...and it is quite safe to say that AT LEAST 20% of the best gear will be raid-acquired only.
i can quote brad directly where he says there is indeed items you can get from soloing (like doing a long quest chain that is soloable) that are considered "best items".
don't know how many or anything like that but he did say there will be items like that. i know your point wasn't that the % you listed were accurate, i was just making sure you knew that what you were stating was pure speculation at this point.
nobody knows exactly what % of all the high end items will come from each sphere or type of content, i mean yeah if you want to say since 20% of the content is raid/solo then that is the % of items you will not have if you don't participate in those areas.
but then again, using that logic then small group content will have 80% of the best items in the game because that is the % of content at end game.
its all speculation at this point, no its not safe to say that at least 20% of the best items in the game will come from raiding just because thats how much content there is vs small group content.
it could very well be more it can be less, i was just clearing that up for you. please proceed with your argument that raiding kills grouping....i have literally read hundreds of posts where you argue that point, i have no desire to discuss that with you any longer and if you feel that way fine, i just get sick of reading it.
Raiding does kill groups, and in my opinion it also takes less skill and is less fun than grouping or solo. Party of 20 can't get it done? We'll bring 50 next time and zerg the mob down! We're great!! And it only took 10 hours to do it!
Is it always this way? No. Is it going to be like this in Vanguard? Not many people know for sure, yet. If done correctly, 'forced' raiding can be both difficult and entertaining, not to mention rewarding. Caps on raiding parties, certain mobs that actually scale on a massive slider to become near demi-gods with the more attackers it faces, introduction of some smaller, faster raids, etc. Just some new, interesting twists on an old idea. Anything different is usually good in this saturated market, nowadays, and raid content is no different.
=====================
-Just My Thoughts-
Max
Currently playing: Nothing
In Vanguard, you can have your house,shop,city etc.
Theres really much much much more you can do in Vanguard then you can in like wow.
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
heh, again i have listed my reasons in the past why i disagree that small grouping is harder than raiding not going to keep repeating myself.
and if you read the FAQ it has been confirmed that there are raid cap limits in vanguard, you are not able to "zerg" like you could in eq1. if you want to argue that "raiding kills grouping" go right ahead, i really don't care because frankly I'm sick of the subject.
and IMO you are wrong, the raid content is indeed different today than it was in eq1...you obviously either haven't raided since then or i just strongly disagree with you.
heh, again i have listed my reasons in the past why i disagree that small grouping is harder than raiding not going to keep repeating myself.
and if you read the FAQ it has been confirmed that there are raid cap limits in vanguard, you are not able to "zerg" like you could in eq1. if you want to argue that "raiding kills grouping" go right ahead, i really don't care because frankly I'm sick of the subject.
and IMO you are wrong, the raid content is indeed different today than it was in eq1...you obviously either haven't raided since then or i just strongly disagree with you.
Why do you keep arguing with people, then?
=====================
-Just My Thoughts-
Max
Currently playing: Nothing
Does anyone know of a good raid system? Or is it just that people who do not like raids in general?
The debate of raids are well known in MMO veterans. Pro raiders say if they can invest the time, coordination of a large group of players, endure the elevated risk of the challange, and are willing to repeat such endeavors then they deserve the best gear. Those against such a system feel gyped. We pay the same subscription fee as hardcore raiders, but because of the time commitment we are excluded access to premium content and rewards.
Hopefully Vanguard does try the compromise by allowing premium gear to be available to all players just in different ways. If I had any input I would keep raids in the game as a means to get premium gear in the shortest period of time. So if players want to form up, spend several hours in a raid area, then you get the uber item. However, as a casual player you can get the uber item as well, just spend weeks to months performing meaningful tasks, decipering lore, winning hard earned victories from foes either via solo or standard group, utilizing high level crafting and/or diplomacy.
In other words, if you want a fast chance in the lottery for the item, raid is the way to go.
Can't do it that way? Lots more time and commitment is necessary, but it can be done.
read much? I'm tired of the "raiding kills grouping" argument. if you wouldn't have just read that one line and took it out of context you would see that.
and i don't believe i was arguing with you either, except that raid content has not evolved witch i disagree with, witch has nothing to do with the argument of "raiding kills grouping"
i was just giving my opinion and basically letting you know that one of your grips about raiding will indeed not be apart of vanguard raiding, from what i have read at least.