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Some Complete Answers For Non-Hardcore Gamers
dink
Member Posts: 438
There are a lot of hardcore game mechanics in Vanguard: SOH. In fact, before SOE picked up the game, this was a large selling point for fans of the series. However, Sigil has begun a campaign to appeal to a larger audience than the hardcore users. However, while they have changed the game design to a degree in order to appeal to a larger audience, they are changing their rhetoric a whole lot more.
This leaves the game in a weird spot of being hardcore in comparison to modern and popular MMOs, but really a nice step up from some of the hardcore game mechanics from which Vanguard is derived.
Thus I am brining you the horse's mouth. Everything in green is directly from the game's Official FAQ. Mainstream players who are deciding on whether or not to try Vanguard should read up on this to see if you are interested in playing a game designed for hardcore gamers, but altered to appeal somehwat (at least) to mainstream playstyles.
1. What are the death penalties?
Vanguard: Saga Of Heroes will employ a variation on the
traditional corpse retrieval death penalty – you die, you return to
your bind point but leave a corpse behind and that corpse contains the
items and coin you had in your possession. You're encouraged to return
to your corpse with another set of gear stored at the nearest outpost
if you desire to retrive your other possessions. Items can be stored in
horses, in ships, and in player owned buildings. Horses are soul bound,
such that when you die, they and any items on your horse, stay with
you. Additionally, during Phase 3 we will be experimenting with
different severity levels relative to the threat level of the NPC or
encounter. One thing is certain -- while the death penalty is likely
harsher than many of the more modern MMOGs, it is not nearly has harsh
as it was in, say, EverQuest. We have made every effort to make death
sting to the point that you are challenged for taking risks, but not so
punished that you are discouraged from taking those risks.
So corpse runs will be standard - thus you can lose your gear in a dungeon and have to spend hours retreiving it. They will support several sets of gear to make this less of a burden. What this doesn't tell you is that the death penalties they are experimenting with also include xp debt/loss as an additional penalty - as well as making the penalty smaller or higher based on the difficulty of the mob. Thus you might be outside a town and get killed by a rat and face no penalty at all, but if you were in the depths of a dungeon and fought the named mob King Rat NippyWhiskers, you might find yourself with a difficult corpse run, item detioration, and heavy xp debt/loss.
As most groups won't wipe except at the most difficult portions of content, what this really means is that you should fear the death penalties if they keep the dynamic death penalty system they are experiementing with as those will be the deaths most players will have to deal with.
2. Can I play solo? Is it rewarding to play solo?
You will be able to solo. Most casual content will be outdoors or in
mini-dungeons. Group content will be in dungeons or in overland
adventure areas, Raid content the same, but likely mostly in the dpeths
of our larger dungeons.
Some of you may enjoy soloing in
Vanguard, and some of you may find it too tedious or slow or not
rewarding enough... Are we designing Vanguard as a solo-oriented game?
No. The focus is on grouping. Does that mean we hate soloing and want
to make it impossible? No, certainly not.
You will always be
more efficient and encouraged to group, even in casual areas, although
you won't need a large group. The casual areas are geared towards small
groups and also designed such that one can achieve advancement in
shorter contiguous chunks of gameplay, so these areas should be
attractive not only to the more casual gamer, but even the hard core
raid gamer who just has an hour or so to log on and wants to be able to
move his character forward in some way.
In summary, soloing will be easier than it was in EverQuest, even with our focus on grouping.
Likewise,
there will be content geared towards raiding and more hard core play.
Even though Vanguard's content is mostly group oriented, both casual
and raid gameplay are very important to us and supported.
What this means is that while you CAN solo, you will not gain as fast xp or as good loot doing so as those who group as the game is clearly focused on group content. There is an exeption to the items in the endgame, see my discussion below #4.
3. If I decide to start off solo, will I be so underpowered that I cannot group or raid?
Iif you were a
dedicated casual gamer who never got any group loot and suddenly
decided to loot you would indeed be at a disadvantage. But you
certainly could befriend a solid group and they could escort you in and
keep you alive and eventually get you some new lewtz. You are not a
total sitting duck, but relatively ineffectual.
I realize some
may panic at that, but, really, if you have a change of heart like
that, which is great, I trust you will find some people who will take
you in.
Going from casual to raid? I'm thinking no. Baby steps
So while you can solo, you cannot easily move from solo play to group play. They will reward grouping so heavily that unless they decide to reward solo play better, it will be a difficult playstyle to integrate.
4. So I know that I can't get the best loot being solo, but can I just do group content and not have to join an uber guild for raiding?
Vanguard is targeting the 'core' gamer. It will have three types of
content: casual, group, and raid. Casual and raid will be the minority,
with most content group oriented.
I know some people accuse EQ
of being too raid oriented. I would say Vanguard will be less so. But
we also think raiding is very important and fun. Our goal from the
beginning was to create a world that would support core gamers, as well
as more casual or people with less time, as well as those crazy raiders
you refer to
Aside from that, well, Vanguard is a new game
with a lot of new features and a whole new world to explore. I don't
think we'll have any problem enticing hard core raiders to migrate
over.
The plan is to have the majority of content be for
groups, with the minority for solo/casuals and raids. Lots of game
mechanics in or planned to make sure this works and to let us make
group dungeons, even at higher levels, appealing and rewarding. Easier
said than done, but we gotta do it.
This FAQ actually isn't the best source of information here, what has been said by Ardune (a Sigil dev) is that for the absolute best items you will need to engage in all of the playstyles to a limited degree in the endgaem. So maybe the best breastplate will come from raiding, the best weapon and greaves from grouping, and the best gloves from solo, the best shoulder pads from crafting, and the best jewelry from diplomacy (just an example). Thus they are planning on rewarding all playstyles in the endgame.
5. Will it take long to travel? Can I play with my Friends?
The journey to your destination should be challenging and fun. There
will be content along the way. Horses and other means of faster
transportation will also become available as characters become higher
level and need to travel further. We sincerely believe there shuold be
fun in "getting there".
So yes, travel times will be long, but they will be assisted to some degree by boats and mounts. If your friend are on a different continent and you are on oppossite sides of it then there are no systems for instant travel as you have seen in newer MMOs, and you may have to spend 15 minutes to an hour getting to one another (exact time estimates are based off of released dev information) depending on your mounts and distance from one another and the "getting there" challenges.
However, if you use the Fellowship system then you can stay together with close friends in level as well as in-game distance. I'll quote the FAQ on the Fellowship system here:
The general idea is that there are some people who have close friends
they want to group with but also have different amounts of time they
can commit to playing an MMOG. The Fellowship system is for these
people to whom staying together is so important that they will
sacrifice some of their own experience to give to these close friends
so they *can* stay relatively together in terms of level. Bottom line
for me is that as long as someone is earning the exp, I don't mind it
shared in a controlled manner (e.g. mindful of potential exploits) and
such that there's no 'free lunch'.
That said, I realize it's a
controversial subject. We'll mess with it in beta and if it's something
that just doesn't pan out, we'll pull it (though I have high hopes for
it).
A group of friends would form a persistent social construct
called a Fellowship. Then, say there were 3 in the Fellowship, but only
2 were logged on, a percentage of the exp earned by the 2 would go to
the third such that his level was kept at or near his 2 friends.
There's no free lunch, because the people online earning exp end up
having to earn the exp for themselves and the offline person.
We plan on experimenting with this system.
Conlusion:
Vanguard has a hardcore death penalty by modern MMO standards as it contains living corpse runs (note you can die on the way to your coprse in Vanguard because you are not a ghost as you are in WoW), item loss from these corpse runs (at least unil the corpse is retrieved), and xp debt/loss.
However, it is at it's core, a group game designed for groups to play together as the majority of content is built around grouping. Solo play is possible and raids will exist, but solo play will not be tenable except as a way to get a small number of peices of gear in the endgame, but at the same time, raiding will also only be required for getting a small number of pieces of gear in the endgame, so that balances out with grouping getting the prize.
Travel times will be long in comparison to newer MMOs, but if you are planning on playing with a set group, then you should be fine.
Make your own decisions based on the game mechanics and not the rhetoric folks. This may be middle-ground enough for mainstream gamers to overlook some of the hardcore game mechanics, but they are certainly there and you shouldn't have to pay $50 to learn about them before quitting if the game isn't for you.
Comments
Dink you make alot of intersting and some valid points in my opinion, however you also seem to construe thing differently than I and in some cases add things that just arn't there or at least not that I've seen.
so much of whats hardcore and whats casual is opinion and very much open to interpretation. however none of what Sigil has stated has changed in the years that I've been following the game. there focus always has been on group play and not to either extreem. it is not and never was geared to "hardcore" and I have yet to see anywhere that its ben "altered" to meet a diferent playstyle.
you did a wonderful job of gathering the quotes but I dont entirely agree with you summaries of them.
Quote:
So corpse runs will be standard - thus you can lose your gear in a dungeon and have to spend hours retreiving it. They will support several sets of gear to make this less of a burden. What this doesn't tell you is that the death penalties they are experimenting with also include xp debt/loss as an additional penalty - as well as making the penalty smaller or higher based on the difficulty of the mob. Thus you might be outside a town and get killed by a rat and face no penalty at all, but if you were in the depths of a dungeon and fought the named mob King Rat NippyWhiskers, you might find yourself with a difficult corpse run, item detioration, and heavy xp debt/loss.
As most groups won't wipe except at the most difficult portions of content, what this really means is that you should fear the death penalties if they keep the dynamic death penalty system they are experiementing with as those will be the deaths most players will have to deal with.
Yes corpse runs will be standard.. yes you will need to retrieve your gear. yes you can and likely will have a second set. and yes there is a exp penalty and while it is not in the peice you quoted it is stated elswhere and in all forums including this one..
you do make an assumption here on how the varience in exp loss will work. it could be the exact opposit for all we know and dying to something far below your level could have a higher deth penalty and dying to something of great challenge could be less of a penalty.. we just dont know yet and as you stated they are still playing with this balance.
and where the heck did you come up with "item detioration" and also where did "Heavy" exp loss come from? when just before you said yourself they are still balancing this... interesting Objectve point of view
Quote:
What this means is that while you CAN solo, you will not gain as fast xp or as good loot doing so as those who group as the game is clearly focused on group content. There is an exeption to the items in the endgame, see my discussion below #4.
yes this does meen you can solo and just lake all other games soloing is in general slower and less rewarding than grouping.. what tis means to me is that logic dictates more people can kill more things and at a faster rate and of a higher level then a single player can..
all mmorpg's that I have played to date are focused on group play. they are all designed in way's and with characters that have inherent strenghts and weeknesses that make them far more affective when grouped.
Quote:
So while you can solo, you cannot easily move from solo play to group play. They will reward grouping so heavily that unless they decide to reward solo play better, it will be a difficult playstyle to integrate.
this again in my opinion is not much different then most current mmorpg's where if you are soloing you are killing fiewer and lower level mobs. thus recieving lower level loot thus making you in comparison to other players that are consistenty grouping less equiped.
what they are doin differntly than most current mmorpgs is creating areas that are easier to solo in, so as a solo player you can choose to fight only in these "easier" areas.. rather than your only option being to fight the content designed for groups where you have to be far mor cautous when pulling etc and avoiding adds. it does NOT say that you cannot play your solo character in the grouping areas only that it will be more dificult to do so.
Soloing in group areas is dificult in any mmorpg, even in wow as so many often refer to as the "casual" game. the best gear is in instances, those instances are impossible to solo in at a level that the loot would be worth anything to your character.
Quote:
This FAQ actually isn't the best source of information here, what has been said by Ardune (a Sigil dev) is that for the absolute best items you will need to engage in all of the playstyles to a limited degree in the endgaem. So maybe the best breastplate will come from raiding, the best weapon and greaves from grouping, and the best gloves from solo, the best shoulder pads from crafting, and the best jewelry from diplomacy (just an example). Thus they are planning on rewarding all playstyles in the endgame.
Wow assuming you are right here this is great news.. far better than wow and EQ and any other game I have played where ALL the top gear comes from Raids!!
Quote:
So yes, travel times will be long, but they will be assisted to some degree by boats and mounts. If your friend are on a different continent and you are on oppossite sides of it then there are no systems for instant travel as you have seen in newer MMOs, and you may have to spend 15 minutes to an hour getting to one another (exact time estimates are based off of released dev information) depending on your mounts and distance from one another and the "getting there" challenges.
However, if you use the Fellowship system then you can stay together with close friends in level as well as in-game distance. I'll quote the FAQ on the Fellowship system here:
Now I do find it interesting that most people complain about meating up with ther friends in the beging and that insta travel prohibits this.. in reality this is true with most game even with insta travel.. in wow as an example you cannot easily go from iron forge to meet your night elf friend at level one. there is not insta travel at this point. now granted this does get easier later once you know the way and have played the game for some time.. but for a new char its still a run no matter what. It will likely get easier for people later in vanguard as well onece you learn the ways and the game in general .. but for new chars it will always be a run ( just don't be an orc in Wow when your friend is a nightelf ... it gets really dificult at that point)
Quote:
Conlusion:
Vanguard has a hardcore death penalty by modern MMO standards as it contains living corpse runs (note you can die on the way to your coprse in Vanguard because you are not a ghost as you are in WoW), item loss from these corpse runs (at least unil the corpse is retrieved), and xp debt/loss.
However, it is at it's core, a group game designed for groups to play together as the majority of content is built around grouping. Solo play is possible and raids will exist, but solo play will not be tenable except as a way to get a small number of peices of gear in the endgame, but at the same time, raiding will also only be required for getting a small number of pieces of gear in the endgame, so that balances out with grouping getting the prize.
Travel times will be long in comparison to newer MMOs, but if you are planning on playing with a set group, then you should be fine.
Make your own decisions based on the game mechanics and not the rhetoric folks. This may be middle-ground enough for mainstream gamers to overlook some of the hardcore game mechanics, but they are certainly there and you shouldn't have to pay $50 to learn about them before quitting if the game isn't for you.
interesting opinion but not necessarily true.. it is not a "hardcore" death penalty in my opinion.. is it more sever than Wows .. yes.. but its not Item or money drop and its not perma death .. those are far more "hardcore" in my opinion.
yes travel times will be longer .. but hopefully more entertaining also .. have to wait and see on that..
what affect does a long run have on getting a pick up group? that confused me a bit...
Yes make your own decision.. preferably on what you learn about the game and what you decide you like or dislike and not just on other persons interpretation of things.. the game is not released yet and is still under an NDA so all any of can do at this point is speculate and interpret what info there is available.. you can see the same info can mean verry different things to different people.
~Aruvia~
Anyone who does the minimal research on this game (and knows a little bit about MMORPGs) will see that it is a linear style, hardcore PvE type of game.
I think that the timing for this game, along with the many other mmo titles on the horizon, will be great for the genre.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Me no likey death penalty.
I shouldn't even respond to this as it is so clearly a non thought out opinion but I'm sick today and feal like punishment.
in comparrison to what? I do know a considerable bit about MMORPGS and I do not see how it is any more "linear" than any of the existing mainstreem games.. any game that is based on Classes of players that gain level upward as they progress is linear so unless you are compairing it to a non MMORPG in which case your point is moot at best. then please provide and example of a fantasy MMORPG that is not linear in the same reguards.
your right it is geared more toward PVE although there will be PVP servers this is clearly not the design of the game.
I guess there is much varience in the interpratation of what hardcore is ... I would argue that LineageII is closer to what many would consider hardcore.. ie encredibly long grinding, item loss and exp loss on death, pvp ganking, and no real content until endgame sieges. so while this may be more dificult than say WoW it is by no means hardcore.. if anything it is more in the middle..
Maybe if you could elaborate a bit on what you think hard core is and what you thnik casual is and maybe even an example of what middle of the road would be I could understand your point better.
If however, all you have is a generalized statment of your opinion and nothing of any value to add then so be it.
Me no likey death penalty.
Not a flame, but if you don't, this is not the game for you... sorry, but there are a TON of games you can play with no real Death Penalty... they just suck... so just wait till the new info on the Death Penalty is decided, and see if you like that...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I shouldn't even respond to this as it is so clearly a non thought out opinion but I'm sick today and feal like punishment.
in comparrison to what? I do know a considerable bit about MMORPGS and I do not see how it is any more "linear" than any of the existing mainstreem games.. any game that is based on Classes of players that gain level upward as they progress is linear so unless you are compairing it to a non MMORPG in which case your point is moot at best. then please provide and example of a fantasy MMORPG that is not linear in the same reguards.
your right it is geared more toward PVE although there will be PVP servers this is clearly not the design of the game.
I guess there is much varience in the interpratation of what hardcore is ... I would argue that LineageII is closer to what many would consider hardcore.. ie encredibly long grinding, item loss and exp loss on death, pvp ganking, and no real content until endgame sieges. so while this may be more dificult than say WoW it is by no means hardcore.. if anything it is more in the middle..
Maybe if you could elaborate a bit on what you think hard core is and what you thnik casual is and maybe even an example of what middle of the road would be I could understand your point better.
If however, all you have is a generalized statment of your opinion and nothing of any value to add then so be it.
Why flame me when I've done nothing wrong?
I said that this game is good for the mmorpg genre. Why is that a bad statement?
In regards to the "linear style" comment, yes every mmorpg is linear at this point in time. However, there are some titles in the 'Games in Development' section here that are attempting to deviate from this style of play.
The reason why it is a more 'hardcore' game than say WoW, is because the best items will be attained through raids, it has a death penalty, and other stuff. But, at the end of the day, you knew what I meant and are just flaming me. Which is ok...
I like a little flame to keep me warm as fall approaches
Dable, My intent is truly not to flame you, only to disagree with you and try to solicit a response that would help me better understand your blunt statement of your point of view..
While there are likely games out there attempting to deviate from this standard of rpgs, to use linear progression as a reason that casual players would not like the game does not make sence to me as all current mmorpgs including ones that casual players do enjoy us this same style.
"at the end of the day" I did not know what you meant. and at this point I still dont entirely understand. top gear in WoW is also obtained strictly through raiding!?! and a game often considered more hardcore like lineageII does not require raiding for top gear.
I do completely agreee that a death penalty of any sort is more severe than Wow but that does not make it a hardcore game, again in my opinion it is still more of a middle ground. now of course some people have such a strong aversion to exp loss that this is a game breaker and some have such an extreme aversion to a corpse run that this is also a game breaker for them. However in my opinion it is not as severe a penelty as many other games and from what I understand the corpse run is greatly improved since say EQ1. So this would fall somewhere in the middle and not the extreme hardcore that you feal it is.
I do feal that, much like the OP in his deliberate misinterpretation of the FAQ, your statement was a bit of a backhanded compliment, you classify it as a type of game that it clearly is not apply truisms of the genre as proof of your point, that I can only guess at the purpose to be to steer less astute players away from the game and then attempt to justify it by saying it will be good for the genre.
While I do enjoy hearing and understanding oppinions apposed to mine.. like the OPs that were carefully thought out. Short blanket statements with no real eplanation tend to get my hackles up.
you are of course entitled to your opinions I was just frustrated with the lack of reasoning..
On the bright side at least your posts arn't long rambles that most people cant stomache reading like mine.. maybe I should take a lesson from you on that...er.. maybe next time
I did it again.
Really a quite decent O.P. and it paints a fairly accurate portrait of how I envision Vanguard to be also. It's not being geared toward casual/new to the market players. It's the game I have been wanting since I first left EQ and I just can't wait. A game where travel means something, with disagreeable if not harsh penalties for taking big chances, along with great rewards for those who prevail! A game where you aren't given the purple sword of huge-osity on a silver platter. But have to scrape and earn your gear piece by piece, victory by victory.
To get all the very very best items in Vanguard yes, you will have to raid. But I can live without it if the journey is interesting and it's all about fun. Item drop fun is fleeting, the fun is really in the journey for me and the locations and challenges.
Kalysa - Really nice response and good formatting too. I'm going to steal your formating to reply even.
I think you offer a nice counter-argument to my points without resorting to flaming. It is rare to see posters stay on subject. My goal with this post is to directly answer some of the questions that mainstream gamers ask and to point DIRECTLY to the information instead of answering it with one-line answers because if you do compare Vanguard directly to it's future competitors (WoW, Gods & Heroes, Age of Conan, etc.) then it is much more hardcore in nearly every aspect, but at the same time, there is a reason why Sigil is saying that it is not a hardcore player only game. They've brought back a lot of hardcore game mechanics that others disliked, but they have tempered them so that the game is not quite as inacessible as the games that these hardcore mechanics come from.
I think that players should look directly at these systems before making their decision instead of believing Brad McQuaid's half-answers. The death penalty is relative to it's competition. It is a much more hardcore penalty than WoW, G&H, or AoC (the games that won the most awards at this year's E3 and thus most likely Vanguard's biggest competitors a the time of release - Warhammer Online and Star Trek Online will be big competitors too. . . a year later). It isn't as hardcore as Everquest (not quite) but it is a LOT more hardcore than it's competitors and MOST MMO players are WoW veterans that never played any other MMO. They will probably only need one corpse run to send them flying back to WoW or some other less punitive game.
Travel times I have explained earlier, and finally, I'm glad that you agree that players should read the facts and make up their own minds. That was the point of this post.
Dink, first thank you for the compliments I truely never intend to flame anyone, however I do often dissagree which unfortunately is often construed as flaming. but I do enjoy opinions that are well thought out and different to mine which is why I am impressed with your posts.
In the end you are very right on many things, Perception is everything. so wat I percieve to be not so hardcore do to my past experiences, others may find very hardcore do to thier past experiences. I have been playing MMORPGs for such a very long time that I at times find it dificult to relate to people who have only played WoW. while I too have and still do play WoW and in fact really really enjoy it my perspective is from a much broader range of experience.
So in my opinion, yes Vangauard will be far more challenging than wow. and again in my opinion this will not make it hardcore just more so than WoW. I do not feal that being more dificult and challenging will in any way make it un enjoyable to casual players. I do agree that there will be players that a corpse run and/or Exp penalty will be a game breaker for. in many ways I think that its unfortunate as I personally feal it adds alot to the over all gaming experience. but I am very glad the the industry is expanding such that there will be other games both new and old that these players will enjoy. I feel that Vanguard has so much potential for me in what it has to offer both in terms of adventuring content and its other two spheres that I will likely spend a considerable amount of time playing it.. I am what I would consider a casual player as I have very limited time to play but I am not adverse to challenge. I do not expect to get all the "best" gear. just as I dont have it in WoW which at this point still requires raiding. and really this doesn't bother me.
so again thank you for your point of view and if in the end you decide to try Vanguard I truely hope I will see you there.
~Aruvia~
edited to correct formatting
I shouldn't even respond to this as it is so clearly a non thought out opinion but I'm sick today and feal like punishment.
in comparrison to what? I do know a considerable bit about MMORPGS and I do not see how it is any more "linear" than any of the existing mainstreem games.. any game that is based on Classes of players that gain level upward as they progress is linear so unless you are compairing it to a non MMORPG in which case your point is moot at best. then please provide and example of a fantasy MMORPG that is not linear in the same reguards.
your right it is geared more toward PVE although there will be PVP servers this is clearly not the design of the game.
I guess there is much varience in the interpratation of what hardcore is ... I would argue that LineageII is closer to what many would consider hardcore.. ie encredibly long grinding, item loss and exp loss on death, pvp ganking, and no real content until endgame sieges. so while this may be more dificult than say WoW it is by no means hardcore.. if anything it is more in the middle..
Maybe if you could elaborate a bit on what you think hard core is and what you thnik casual is and maybe even an example of what middle of the road would be I could understand your point better.
If however, all you have is a generalized statment of your opinion and nothing of any value to add then so be it.
Why flame me when I've done nothing wrong?
I said that this game is good for the mmorpg genre. Why is that a bad statement?
In regards to the "linear style" comment, yes every mmorpg is linear at this point in time. However, there are some titles in the 'Games in Development' section here that are attempting to deviate from this style of play.
The reason why it is a more 'hardcore' game than say WoW, is because the best items will be attained through raids, it has a death penalty, and other stuff. But, at the end of the day, you knew what I meant and are just flaming me. Which is ok...
I like a little flame to keep me warm as fall approaches
pardon if im wrong, but...
the "best" items in WoW come from raids. period. no other alternative, and with wow's pvp system it means, literally, raid or die.
its been stated several time in various places that the "best" items in VG will come NOT ONLY from raids, but also thru diplomacy and crafting. In fact, i beleieve brad mcquaid stated that more than likely the absolute "best" items will require you all 3 spheres.
as far as a death penalty goes, its not a bad thing. it encourages, even forces, having to clear an area instead of the system in wow. in wow with their 0 death penalty, you can literally train in, die, ghost back res and continue to train to your objective. when finished you simply res at their graveyard. you do pay a small gear repair (ok it can get sizeable) fee, but if you go naked there is no damage to your gear. thats not a system that encourages you to really play the game.
I shouldn't even respond to this as it is so clearly a non thought out opinion but I'm sick today and feal like punishment.
in comparrison to what? I do know a considerable bit about MMORPGS and I do not see how it is any more "linear" than any of the existing mainstreem games.. any game that is based on Classes of players that gain level upward as they progress is linear so unless you are compairing it to a non MMORPG in which case your point is moot at best. then please provide and example of a fantasy MMORPG that is not linear in the same reguards.
your right it is geared more toward PVE although there will be PVP servers this is clearly not the design of the game.
I guess there is much varience in the interpratation of what hardcore is ... I would argue that LineageII is closer to what many would consider hardcore.. ie encredibly long grinding, item loss and exp loss on death, pvp ganking, and no real content until endgame sieges. so while this may be more dificult than say WoW it is by no means hardcore.. if anything it is more in the middle..
Maybe if you could elaborate a bit on what you think hard core is and what you thnik casual is and maybe even an example of what middle of the road would be I could understand your point better.
If however, all you have is a generalized statment of your opinion and nothing of any value to add then so be it.
Why flame me when I've done nothing wrong?
I said that this game is good for the mmorpg genre. Why is that a bad statement?
In regards to the "linear style" comment, yes every mmorpg is linear at this point in time. However, there are some titles in the 'Games in Development' section here that are attempting to deviate from this style of play.
The reason why it is a more 'hardcore' game than say WoW, is because the best items will be attained through raids, it has a death penalty, and other stuff. But, at the end of the day, you knew what I meant and are just flaming me. Which is ok...
I like a little flame to keep me warm as fall approaches
pardon if im wrong, but...
the "best" items in WoW come from raids. period. no other alternative, and with wow's pvp system it means, literally, raid or die.
its been stated several time in various places that the "best" items in VG will come NOT ONLY from raids, but also thru diplomacy and crafting. In fact, i beleieve brad mcquaid stated that more than likely the absolute "best" items will require you all 3 spheres.
as far as a death penalty goes, its not a bad thing. it encourages, even forces, having to clear an area instead of the system in wow. in wow with their 0 death penalty, you can literally train in, die, ghost back res and continue to train to your objective. when finished you simply res at their graveyard. you do pay a small gear repair (ok it can get sizeable) fee, but if you go naked there is no damage to your gear. thats not a system that encourages you to really play the game.
I just knew I was gonna get called out for that "best items" statement in WoW
Yes, the truth is the VERY BEST items can only be obtained by 40 man raids in WoW. However, you could without a guild obtain gear nearly comparable to what the majority of players have by doing the Honor grind and faction grinds. And with that gear you can still compete quite well.
Needless to say, this whole topic is pretty stupid because none of us definatively knows what Vanguard will be like. However, the OP was is absolutely correct about one thing....
Vanguard will have much more 'hardcore' mechanics than any of it's competitors. The FaQ on their site tells me this much.
Needless to say, when it comes out I'll buy it and give it a shot. But then again, I'll buy AoC, TcoS, WAR, etc. when they come out too. Know why? CAUSE I'M RICH, BITCH!!!
wow, i think i love you!
in all seriousness, i couldn't agree with you more on both of your posts.....and you said it better than i ever could, kudos...nice post's
I'm getting tired of this hardcore stuff. None of us have the opinion of what hardcore actually is. IF hardcore is Grinding tedium, then I have yet to find an MMORPG that wasn't hardcore (other than maybe some FPS MMOs). Yes, WoW has tedious grinding.
In this post i'm looking for answers... I want someone (or everyone) to post, in their opinion, what "hardcore" is and what it means for MMORPGs. I want this to happen so I can tell you straight up if Vanguard is going to be hardcore or non-hardcore.
Current MMO of interest: Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
MMO background: EQ, UO, AO, SWG, PS, EQ2, L2,EQoA, WoW, WWIIO, and AC2
It is because people have definitions on what makes a game hardcore or accessible that I decided to quote these things exactly. A lot of the game mechanics in Vanguard are frustrating, tiresome, or create inaccessability moreso than Vanguard's counterparts.
The fact that they are campaiging heavily - not only in words but in changes to the game - to appeal to a broader market is very smart, and I think Vanguard is in a middle space now. It isn't as hardcore as the first generation of MMOs, but it is much more hardcore than any of it's competition. By the time Vanguard comes out, the AAA titles it must compete with will be WoW, Gods & Heroes, Age of Conan, and LOTR (and about a year later they'll have to compete with Warhammer Online and Star Trek Online). None of them are planning item-loss corpse runs (PLUS xp debt/loss - Vanguard is playing with their death penalties right now so it could have this as well or instead or worse or better), long travel times, or group-dependence for viability.
So Vanguard is going to be the most hardcore MMO out there in comparison to it's competition. However, they are definitely tempering the hardcore mechanics to make them less frustrating and tedious than they were in the original EQ.
It will be interesting to see how competitive Vanguard is. They've gotten a lot of attention, much of it negative, but the game is on people's radar even though it did not get nearly as many awards from various sites at E3 as other games (Gods & Heroes - most awarded, Age of Conan - second most awarded). Warhammer Online also got as many awards as Vanguard, and people are really excited about it too. I wonder how much setting has to do with this. . . but I'm getting off track. Anyway, I'm interested in Vanguard's design and how players will respond. There definitely has been a strong trend of moving away from the MMO genre's roots with those games that have the greatest accessability acheiving the greatest success.
Hey dink,
Until you try playing the game you wont know anything for sure. Don't worry about until it is released, and then you can warn us on what a bad game it is.
Still, you won't know anything definitively until the game comes out. Who knows what can happen between now and release. They might just push back the date to rework things. No one knows, except for the devs.
I'm saving criticism or praise until I play it.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Thanks for the info Dink and to everyone for the replys to Dink. I dismissed this game as "too hard core", but maybe it has promise. I'm still a bit confused, but will try to keep an open mind untill some beta testers and reviewers spill the beans.
From the first that I heard of Vanguard, it was labeled as a "hard core game". Maybe even labeled by the makers themselves. Why are they backpedaling now?
I don't think it was the direct quotes from the game's FAQ that people found suspect. It was your analysis/interpretation of those quotes that people were/are questioning.
Basically all the text in green (the quotes) were fine. It was all that stuff in white (your analysis) that was the issue.