Most of you people have a completly wrong idea of what vanguard is/will be.
Vanguard is your typical fantasy mmorpg, there is no sandbox gameplay, there is little "freedom", you get diferent starting villages, on 3 diferent continents, so thats some freedom, but it all ends up beeing the same. You are directed to the content apropriate to your level range, you kill it/talk to it/craft it, then move on to the next "zone" within your level range. Nothing but a glorified version of the way WoW handles content.
I dunno how people came to expect this game to be the holy grail that would save them from the evil blizzard mmorpg empire, but your in for a soar dissapointment if you are there at launch and finaly get to play the game. Just look it as another typical mmorpg with a couple of twists.
Well, there is no freedom. You HAVE to raid, to tradeskill and to commit to EVERY aspect they want to enforce. Huge mean nothing if you HAVE to be doing everything, been a generalist that master everything, yet you have a class and are by definition a specialist. Asking specialists to be generalists, that Raid, Tradeskill, do the diplomacy stuff, get that, go there...that is ENFORCING, a total lack of freedom.
Everything you just wrote applies to all MMO's
Aradune usually focus on words his project lack. Lack of Freedom is more precise then freedom. FREEDOM would be to have the choice to either PvP, or to Raid, or to Tradeskill, or to group in a LDoN-way in order to gain exactly the same reward, now THAT would be freedom...but since every item is linked to a PRECISE and rigid activity, it is a complete LACK of freedom.
I believe they are talking about freedom within the context of the game. The freedom to choose what you want to do.
WoW is the best example of a game with Zero freedom. Wow, you are in fact, forced to raid. If you don't you have no option but to reroll or stop playing. Simple as that.
Speculate how you want, Vanguard will have a far more "open" play environment then most of the new games. I'm not convienced myself that Vanguard will be "all that". By leaving out PvP they sack a great portion of "freedom" and choice. (not advocating FFA either) A world without conflict is a static world. Thats what you are going to get, a huge static world somewhat like EQII with nothing going on it but a new boss mob showing up every now and then,
Originally posted by Amathe In Vanguard's advertisements, they are emphasizing the word "freedom" to market the game. I can sort of understand how they came up with this. There are a lot of professions and classes. It is a zoneless world. But most importantly a lot of the "rules" some people complained of in EQ2 are absent in Vanguard. So it's not complete crap. But as all things with this game, they cannot stick to truths and have to resort to half truths that become outright lies. The ads go on to say how you can fly on a dragon (and similar examples). Now technically this is true. But what the ad doesn't say is you can do these things if, and only if, you spend a zillion hours playing the game and are among the elite few ever to be able to do that. It is wrong to characterize that as freedom. It's like saying you can go to Washington DC and have dinner with the President. Yes, you can, if you are a governor or a congressman or if you donate $50,000 to a political party. So in a technical sense you have the freedom to do this but in any ordinary sense you do not. These things are flat out untrue from the point of view of the average player who purchases the product in reliance on those ads and thinks they will ever really get to do these things. Dragon mounts are for the self styled elite few, and everyone else is just suppoed to keep paying a subscription fee for the privilege of admiring people who have one lol. That's the Vision (tm). This is just another example of my biggest problem with Vanguard. I don't really care how they make the game. Their choices all become considerations for whether I will play it or not, in this case, not. But here we have a game that is one thing that is being marketed as another thing because the first thing isn't very popular. I put these guys in the same category as Mourning. Not that the game is vaporware, because it isn't, but because they have no scruples in what they say about it to get people to buy it. Why don't they just tell the truth? If the game is as good as some of the posters in this forum believe it is, what harm could come to the game from telling the truth about it? I propose that they ad a disclaimer to the box: This game is intended to be enjoyed by people who devote 5 or more hours a day to playing videogames. If you are not such a person you can still play this game, but you will have a very weak character who will only be able to experience a fraction of the game content and will never be able to enjoy many of the game rewards. So I ask you, why run from the truth if the game is so good? Why put out ads touting freedom that is 95% illusory? Unless by freedom they mean in a Janice Joplin sense, where "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
It's the big MMOG for this Winter that offers a seamless world, horses and ships and flying mounts that aren't on rails anywhere in the world, content for casual, group, and raid, content for people with differing play styles, player housing, unmatched character customization, different spheres of advancement including Diplomacy, and much more (see other posts, the FAQ, interviews, write-ups, etc.)
What does this all mean? It means Vanguard has more freedom for you, the player, in the game world, and a lot more things for you to do than the other big games out there right now. So I think our new motto is quite appropriate.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Torak Originally posted by Anofalye
Well, there is no freedom. You HAVE to raid, to tradeskill and to commit to EVERY aspect they want to enforce. Huge mean nothing if you HAVE to be doing everything, been a generalist that master everything, yet you have a class and are by definition a specialist. Asking specialists to be generalists, that Raid, Tradeskill, do the diplomacy stuff, get that, go there...that is ENFORCING, a total lack of freedom.
Everything you just wrote applies to all MMO's
It applies neither to CoV, neither to HJ.
Although it is a bit early, I also think that Stargate and BioWare MMOs will be really "free" on this aspect as well, yet for Stargate and BioWare, we are still a tadbit early.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
It's the big MMOG for this Winter that offers a seamless world, horses and ships and flying mounts that aren't on rails anywhere in the world, content for casual, group, and raid, content for people with differing play styles, player housing, unmatched character customization, different spheres of advancement including Diplomacy, and much more (see other posts, the FAQ, interviews, write-ups, etc.)
What does this all mean? It means Vanguard has more freedom for you, the player, in the game world, and a lot more things for you to do than the other big games out there right now. So I think our new motto is quite appropriate.
Well I can appreciate that
What my primary concern is as follows.
I have no bone to pick with a PvE focused game. I feel that with strong content an MMO can do very well without PvP.
So my question/concern is this: How will Vanguards content measure up to what is out there right now? Will it be simplistic kill task and fetch chores or will it be lore/story/quest driven. Will it have any sort of dynamic element? Will it give the basic building block of RPG's, choice with consequence?
Yes, the freedom to move about and a vast world by any means is nice and I'm a sucker for vast seamless worlds, but what good is it if all you do is "fly" your mount to the next "go kill 10 rats" quest?
Given that Vanguard is based primarily on PvE what will seperate it from its peers other then flashy "stuff"? Will a diplomat spawn in the same place as a warrior and be forced to travel a similar linear route? Will class choice truely affect the players role in the world or fill a simple role in a combat group.
I can already log onto dozens of games with simple kill task as the primary content, I don't see much about how Vanguards content will be DIFFERENT.
Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by Amathe In Vanguard's advertisements, they are emphasizing the word "freedom" to market the game. I can sort of understand how they came up with this. There are a lot of professions and classes. It is a zoneless world. But most importantly a lot of the "rules" some people complained of in EQ2 are absent in Vanguard. So it's not complete crap. But as all things with this game, they cannot stick to truths and have to resort to half truths that become outright lies. The ads go on to say how you can fly on a dragon (and similar examples). Now technically this is true. But what the ad doesn't say is you can do these things if, and only if, you spend a zillion hours playing the game and are among the elite few ever to be able to do that. It is wrong to characterize that as freedom. It's like saying you can go to Washington DC and have dinner with the President. Yes, you can, if you are a governor or a congressman or if you donate $50,000 to a political party. So in a technical sense you have the freedom to do this but in any ordinary sense you do not. These things are flat out untrue from the point of view of the average player who purchases the product in reliance on those ads and thinks they will ever really get to do these things. Dragon mounts are for the self styled elite few, and everyone else is just suppoed to keep paying a subscription fee for the privilege of admiring people who have one lol. That's the Vision (tm). This is just another example of my biggest problem with Vanguard. I don't really care how they make the game. Their choices all become considerations for whether I will play it or not, in this case, not. But here we have a game that is one thing that is being marketed as another thing because the first thing isn't very popular. I put these guys in the same category as Mourning. Not that the game is vaporware, because it isn't, but because they have no scruples in what they say about it to get people to buy it. Why don't they just tell the truth? If the game is as good as some of the posters in this forum believe it is, what harm could come to the game from telling the truth about it? I propose that they ad a disclaimer to the box: This game is intended to be enjoyed by people who devote 5 or more hours a day to playing videogames. If you are not such a person you can still play this game, but you will have a very weak character who will only be able to experience a fraction of the game content and will never be able to enjoy many of the game rewards. So I ask you, why run from the truth if the game is so good? Why put out ads touting freedom that is 95% illusory? Unless by freedom they mean in a Janice Joplin sense, where "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
You speak truth.
They should make this post a sticky.
actually no, its not the truth. what he is saying is that "i want all the rewards you obtain by playing the game as soon as i log in." why then, would you ever play the game. Show me where it says that the only way to obtain a flying mount will b to spend hour on hour raiding. i can garauntee you wont find it in any of the canguard lit. You jonaku may find it by linking an argument based on a post you yourself made.
rewards like the mount will be obtainable by everyone, and yes, you will actually have to play the game to get the reward.
flying mounts that aren't on rails anywhere in the world
What percentage of your players would you estimate will have one of these, and within what time frame? Obviously it will be a rough prediction, but then you have many years of experience in the industry, a ton of market research on your prospective players, and the fact that you made the game to base that rough prediction on. So as long as Sigil is promoting the game in part based on this feature, and if this is an example of "freedom", why not go ahead and tell them how many can reasonably expect to ever get one.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Originally posted by Aradune flying mounts that aren't on rails anywhere in the world
What percentage of your players would you estimate will have one of these, and within what time frame? Obviously it will be a rough prediction, but then you have many years of experience in the industry, a ton of market research on your prospective players, and the fact that you made the game to base that rough prediction on. So as long as Sigil is promoting the game in part based on this feature, and if this is an example of "freedom", why not go ahead and tell them how many can reasonably expect to ever get one.
Well, there are pic's of people in Beta that already have them...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by Aradune flying mounts that aren't on rails anywhere in the world
What percentage of your players would you estimate will have one of these, and within what time frame? Obviously it will be a rough prediction, but then you have many years of experience in the industry, a ton of market research on your prospective players, and the fact that you made the game to base that rough prediction on. So as long as Sigil is promoting the game in part based on this feature, and if this is an example of "freedom", why not go ahead and tell them how many can reasonably expect to ever get one.
A fair (if very sarcastically worded) question. To my understanding you can't even try to get one until level 40. Given the variety of flying mounts we've seen from videos already: swamp drake, a purple "fairy drake" (what it looks like to me), a roc (giant eagle), and a griffon I would wager there is more than one way to get a flying mount. Just like there is more than one way to get a horse.
But think about this...pretty much EVERYONE is likely to have a horse by level 10. And some as early as level 6 (though a diplomacy quest).
IF (and that's a big if) that same kind of philosphy follows suit it would only make sense that after you hit 40 a few different choices will open up to aquiring flying mounts and as you get higher in level it will just get easier, much like getting your first land mount.
Comments
Vanguard is your typical fantasy mmorpg, there is no sandbox gameplay, there is little "freedom", you get diferent starting villages, on 3 diferent continents, so thats some freedom, but it all ends up beeing the same. You are directed to the content apropriate to your level range, you kill it/talk to it/craft it, then move on to the next "zone" within your level range. Nothing but a glorified version of the way WoW handles content.
I dunno how people came to expect this game to be the holy grail that would save them from the evil blizzard mmorpg empire, but your in for a soar dissapointment if you are there at launch and finaly get to play the game. Just look it as another typical mmorpg with a couple of twists.
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
Well, there is no freedom. You HAVE to raid, to tradeskill and to commit to EVERY aspect they want to enforce. Huge mean nothing if you HAVE to be doing everything, been a generalist that master everything, yet you have a class and are by definition a specialist. Asking specialists to be generalists, that Raid, Tradeskill, do the diplomacy stuff, get that, go there...that is ENFORCING, a total lack of freedom.
Everything you just wrote applies to all MMO's
Aradune usually focus on words his project lack. Lack of Freedom is more precise then freedom. FREEDOM would be to have the choice to either PvP, or to Raid, or to Tradeskill, or to group in a LDoN-way in order to gain exactly the same reward, now THAT would be freedom...but since every item is linked to a PRECISE and rigid activity, it is a complete LACK of freedom.
I believe they are talking about freedom within the context of the game. The freedom to choose what you want to do.
WoW is the best example of a game with Zero freedom. Wow, you are in fact, forced to raid. If you don't you have no option but to reroll or stop playing. Simple as that.
Speculate how you want, Vanguard will have a far more "open" play environment then most of the new games. I'm not convienced myself that Vanguard will be "all that". By leaving out PvP they sack a great portion of "freedom" and choice. (not advocating FFA either) A world without conflict is a static world. Thats what you are going to get, a huge static world somewhat like EQII with nothing going on it but a new boss mob showing up every now and then,
It's the big MMOG for this Winter that offers a seamless world, horses and ships and flying mounts that aren't on rails anywhere in the world, content for casual, group, and raid, content for people with differing play styles, player housing, unmatched character customization, different spheres of advancement including Diplomacy, and much more (see other posts, the FAQ, interviews, write-ups, etc.)
What does this all mean? It means Vanguard has more freedom for you, the player, in the game world, and a lot more things for you to do than the other big games out there right now. So I think our new motto is quite appropriate.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
Well, there is no freedom. You HAVE to raid, to tradeskill and to commit to EVERY aspect they want to enforce. Huge mean nothing if you HAVE to be doing everything, been a generalist that master everything, yet you have a class and are by definition a specialist. Asking specialists to be generalists, that Raid, Tradeskill, do the diplomacy stuff, get that, go there...that is ENFORCING, a total lack of freedom.
Everything you just wrote applies to all MMO's
It applies neither to CoV, neither to HJ.
Although it is a bit early, I also think that Stargate and BioWare MMOs will be really "free" on this aspect as well, yet for Stargate and BioWare, we are still a tadbit early.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
It's the big MMOG for this Winter that offers a seamless world, horses and ships and flying mounts that aren't on rails anywhere in the world, content for casual, group, and raid, content for people with differing play styles, player housing, unmatched character customization, different spheres of advancement including Diplomacy, and much more (see other posts, the FAQ, interviews, write-ups, etc.)
What does this all mean? It means Vanguard has more freedom for you, the player, in the game world, and a lot more things for you to do than the other big games out there right now. So I think our new motto is quite appropriate.
Well I can appreciate that
What my primary concern is as follows.
I have no bone to pick with a PvE focused game. I feel that with strong content an MMO can do very well without PvP.
So my question/concern is this: How will Vanguards content measure up to what is out there right now? Will it be simplistic kill task and fetch chores or will it be lore/story/quest driven. Will it have any sort of dynamic element? Will it give the basic building block of RPG's, choice with consequence?
Yes, the freedom to move about and a vast world by any means is nice and I'm a sucker for vast seamless worlds, but what good is it if all you do is "fly" your mount to the next "go kill 10 rats" quest?
Given that Vanguard is based primarily on PvE what will seperate it from its peers other then flashy "stuff"? Will a diplomat spawn in the same place as a warrior and be forced to travel a similar linear route? Will class choice truely affect the players role in the world or fill a simple role in a combat group.
I can already log onto dozens of games with simple kill task as the primary content, I don't see much about how Vanguards content will be DIFFERENT.
You speak truth.
They should make this post a sticky.
actually no, its not the truth. what he is saying is that "i want all the rewards you obtain by playing the game as soon as i log in." why then, would you ever play the game. Show me where it says that the only way to obtain a flying mount will b to spend hour on hour raiding. i can garauntee you wont find it in any of the canguard lit. You jonaku may find it by linking an argument based on a post you yourself made.
rewards like the mount will be obtainable by everyone, and yes, you will actually have to play the game to get the reward.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Well, there are pic's of people in Beta that already have them...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
A fair (if very sarcastically worded) question. To my understanding you can't even try to get one until level 40. Given the variety of flying mounts we've seen from videos already: swamp drake, a purple "fairy drake" (what it looks like to me), a roc (giant eagle), and a griffon I would wager there is more than one way to get a flying mount. Just like there is more than one way to get a horse.
But think about this...pretty much EVERYONE is likely to have a horse by level 10. And some as early as level 6 (though a diplomacy quest).
IF (and that's a big if) that same kind of philosphy follows suit it would only make sense that after you hit 40 a few different choices will open up to aquiring flying mounts and as you get higher in level it will just get easier, much like getting your first land mount.
I'm curious myself if this is actually the case.