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Why they won't release Classic - Theory Collection Thread
Leel
Member Posts: 455
OK this a THEORY collection thread.
Theories will be listed and voted on at the completion of this thread.
Lets just say that Shayde is correct and Classic is the only way to save this game.
Please list your theory as to why they won't.
<----------======RULES=====---------->
1) You can't use the standard "Because they don't want to admit they made a mistake" response.
2) You must assume that they DO want to save the game.
3) You must assume that Classic is the only way to save SWG
(will add rules if you guys would like to suggest any)
<----------------------------------------->
Obligatory pirrg disclaimer: This is NOT a thread discussing whether they are actually going to release classic.
An example would be:
SOE does not want to release classic because players spend too much time playing. If the only game players need is SWG classic, then why would they pay for a station pass. They had to bring SWG inline with all the other crappy games they offer, so there is not one that offers everything, but rather each offering a small peice of a gaming experience.
Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw
LA won't let them. LA wants SOE and SWG to fail so they are no longer legally bound to SOE concerning a SW MMO property. There in all likelyhood can be no competing product (ie: another SW MMO) due to a non-compete agreement in the original contract between LA and SOE. So in order for LA to hand over the license, SWG must go the way of the dodo.
Everyone knows the subs will go up if they bring back classic servers, but not as many subs as a whole new game.
My theory.
Originally posted by KzinKiller
It would cost money.
It would take coding talent they no longer have.
They don't want to spend the money.
They don't want to hire the coders.
It's all about the Benjamins ... they've been in low-investment mode since they decided to implement the NGE. Smaller, simpler, cheaper is their mantra at the exec level.
Putting out Classic without spending the money on competent coders just digs their hole deeper as people flame them for the crappy quality of the Classic servers.
Originally posted by Ransom73
1.) Due to high dev turnover, very few if any devs currently employed by LA or SOE understand the code.
2.) Licensing agreement with Lucas Arts
3.) The ROI (return of investment) is not high enough to justify the financial risk of instituting classic servers, and hiring previous talent BACK (that either quit, or was RIF'd) to service and maintain the servers when (not if) something breaks.
4.) People quit preCU because it was a buggy mess and lacked content. They aren't likely return to a game they quit previously. SOE and LA knows this, therefore the aforementioned risk (financial investment in a 5 year old game design) does not equal enough reward (subsriptions).
5.) This next part requires some abstract thinking, so please try and keep up:
SW:G "Classic" required time. Not in terms of leveling, but in terms of instituting "classic" servers, it would take an extraordinate amount of time for players to reach the level of status they once held, and are extremely unlikely to invest in AGAIN for something they already attained (eg Jedi). Another example of time investment are resources. In order to make certain high level weapons, armor, or other items, certain called or named resources are required, that may spawn a week from now, or may not spawn for 6 months. Just to make a small tatooine house would require an extraordinate amount of "prework", that could equal several weeks time. Anything that required factory run components (same serial) would take several weeks, to months to produce in the event one or more called resources are required. On Ahazi, the well documented lack of a gemstone spawn made production of T21 rifles impossible for nearly 6 months after release. Players are unwilling to wait around for high quality spawns. Player frustration point number 1.
In short, the ROI for the financial risk by SOE to institute classic servers makes any decision from "up top" easy to make.
Ixnay the upitstay.
Originally posted by Antarious
1) Less player quit per month now than before. So the NGE is obviously the way to go.
**You have to realize that no one at SOE is a math wiz. None of them have figured out that if you had a constant of a 10% player loss per month. That over time you have to lose less total players per month because you have a lower total to lose 10% of**
2) The NGE just hasn't had enough time yet to reach all the "star warsy" fans that are locked away in basements around the world.
3) The Smuggler update hasn't hit the live server yet.
**Just about anytime smugglers were to get something we see a game revamp**
4) The same person that told the "people in charge" that the CU had overwhelming support is giving them the subscriber totals (80 percent vet retention and more total subs than ever!!)
****
So perhaps the biggest reason SOE won't make classic servers is... They really don't get it. Which really isn't something that is an SOE only problem. Almost every company would rather add crap nobody wants than to just fix the game we had and sometimes even love.
Originally posted by Wildcat84
A combination of stupidity and incompetence. The Devs they have now aren't even the SOE D-team, and this is proven by some of the downright ignorant and inflammatory comments made by the lead developer, Helios.
While they could bring up pre-CU servers tomorrow if they wanted to, the problem is this Dev team knows nothing about it or how it works. Nor do they have any belief in the concepts behind it. So, they'd run it poorly (like they run the NGE ones well). The talent that could do it right is at Bioware Austin.
Also, the existing expansions beyond JTL wouldn't work with them without having to have all the mobs/items redone.
Really, at this point I don't care if the SOE idiots get their heads out of their asses or not, pre-CU servers ARE going to happen whether they want them or not.
And, frankly, now that I'm off the trainwreck, I have to say it is very personally satisfying to watch them go down.
Originally posted by MikeG50
SWG:NGE is not the biggest steaming pile on there station pass deal therefor they can continue to claim some succes as long as it does better then some of the other titles and then scale back the costs to operate it.
Originally posted by RysinLexicon
I happen to think that "classic Servers would be popular, but here is why they will not do it:
1) It is too expensive.
- Not to revert back and create one, but to fix it. Simply put, if they roll back the the CU or Pre-CU and do not fix what they could not fix back then, then the game would die out just as it was before the NGE and CU
- For as much as people love to talk about how great the Pre-CU was, it was horribly imbalanced and just riddled with bugs! The CU came out because people were leaving the game for a reason and SoE s just not capable of knowing how to fix those issues (see #2)
2) Not sure SoE knows how to really make this game work
- This pretty much applies to either version of the game.
- I like the PvP aspects they are doing with the NGE, but the NGE killed off to much of what made SWG so good and I do not see a why of incorporating all three versions (see #1)
3) Another change will kill the game
- If you think the game is dead now, wait till you change it again.
- Duel Classic and NGE servers will not work as there will not be enought players to support either on thier own
Originally posted by rekkor
First my theory.
-They wont release classic because they are just flat out obstinate, self righteous, and egotistical.
but I also feel they dont want to invest the time and monies it would take to develop and maintain a seperate classic server. Then you also have the expansions problem.
-To that end I come to my final and best theory. They probably believe as I do that since SOE screwed the vets so hard, and didnt even buy us dinner first, that a large portion of the old subscribers wont return for the classic server for the sole reason that it would mean paying SOE more money and risking further humiliation at their hands and poor business savy.
Originally posted by iskareot
I asked this myself to the highest person I could.
Here is why it's just not logical now.
Cost factor.
Maintenance structure..
Longivity and age of the product.
THe knowledge of the staff needed.
It is sad but the one thing the NGE did do right is make it a cheap game to run and manage. (In the end you get what you pay for though as always). Plus the kind of game it is now, is much easier to work on, with no complexity means less issues with the game. (Keep it simple stupid) stuff.
Comments
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Close, Now imagine that in a daisy chain of devs and execs.
LA won't let them. LA wants SOE and SWG to fail so they are no longer legally bound to SOE concerning a SW MMO property. There in all likelyhood can be no competing product (ie: another SW MMO) due to a non-compete agreement in the original contract between LA and SOE. So in order for LA to hand over the license, SWG must go the way of the dodo.
Everyone knows the subs will go up if they bring back classic servers, but not as many subs as a whole new game.
My theory.
It would take coding talent they no longer have.
They don't want to spend the money.
They don't want to hire the coders.
It's all about the Benjamins ... they've been in low-investment mode since they decided to implement the NGE. Smaller, simpler, cheaper is their mantra at the exec level.
Putting out Classic without spending the money on competent coders just digs their hole deeper as people flame them for the crappy quality of the Classic servers.
Well, I for one will not be asking myself for a promotion then.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
1.) Due to high dev turnover, very few if any devs currently employed by LA or SOE understand the code.
2.) Licensing agreement with Lucas Arts
3.) The ROI (return of investment) is not high enough to justify the financial risk of instituting classic servers, and hiring previous talent BACK (that either quit, or was RIF'd) to service and maintain the servers when (not if) something breaks.
4.) People quit preCU because it was a buggy mess and lacked content. They aren't likely return to a game they quit previously. SOE and LA knows this, therefore the aforementioned risk (financial investment in a 5 year old game design) does not equal enough reward (subsriptions).
5.) This next part requires some abstract thinking, so please try and keep up:
SW:G "Classic" required time. Not in terms of leveling, but in terms of instituting "classic" servers, it would take an extraordinate amount of time for players to reach the level of status they once held, and are extremely unlikely to invest in AGAIN for something they already attained (eg Jedi). Another example of time investment are resources. In order to make certain high level weapons, armor, or other items, certain called or named resources are required, that may spawn a week from now, or may not spawn for 6 months. Just to make a small tatooine house would require an extraordinate amount of "prework", that could equal several weeks time. Anything that required factory run components (same serial) would take several weeks, to months to produce in the event one or more called resources are required. On Ahazi, the well documented lack of a gemstone spawn made production of T21 rifles impossible for nearly 6 months after release. Players are unwilling to wait around for high quality spawns. Player frustration point number 1.
Players quit.
Further, players of SW:G Classic were / are conditioned to purchasing resources, weapons, armor, and other goods readily availble from either the auction forums or merchant vendors. These goods that players are conditioned to being at their fingertips won't be available to them for 1 month, up to possibly 6 months - while players manually mine for resources to make personal harvesters, that will yield enough resources to make a factory, that will yield the subcomponents for a medium harvester, that will yield enough resources for a factory run of subcomponents of a factory run of previously mentioned T21's. Players are unwilling to wait around for high quality spawns. Player frustration point number 2.
More players quit.
Doctor buffs and combat medic poisons/diseases/area heals require both inorganic and organic resources in high quality to yield previously known high end results Weapons that were previously experimented fully into damage because previous doctor buffs made HAM costs obsolete will now incap a player due to high HAM costs (combined with high HAM cost armor) and subpar doctor buffs. More player frustration.
More players quit.
In short, players praying for a SW:G Classic are the players that had "mastered" the game. That had beat it, and look upon with rose colored glasses. It is the players with the 90 percent comp armor. The players with mind fire pikes. The players with perfect sabers. Eventually, the combat scene would be:
1) Mind / action fire pikemen/tkm/fencers/master brawlers
2) Combat Medic / Riflemen
3) 3000 BH / TKM
4) Master LS / Master Enhancer / 4004 Healer Jedi
5) Master LS / Master Healer / 4004 Enhancer Jedi
6) Master LS / Healer / Enhancer / Defender / Novice Brawler Hybrid Jedi
7) Master Riflemen/MTKM/0040 Pistoleer/3040 Medic
There would be very few Rangers. There would be very Carbineers. There would be very few Pistol based temps (due to lack of AP). Dancer bots. Musician bots. Very few Squad Leaders. Noone would be a Smuggler except to slice weapons. And the odd Han Solo RPer wannabe.
PreCU didnt take much skill. It took a template calculator and a lucky loot from a Janta or Nightsister or Krayt. Or a damn good exploiting smugger double/triple slicing a weapon. Anyone with a defense stacker melee template thought themselves uber (DoT opponent, outlast their damage with your defenses while your DoT'd weapon did the trick). The inability for anyone (except Combat Medics, who could heal the minds of other players - go figure that one out....) to heal mind damage makes anyone but a Jedi completely vulnerable to aforementioned mind fire/poison/disease weapons.
The psycology of it makes SW:G Classic a no-go from the start.
In short, the ROI for the financial risk by SOE to institute classic servers makes any decision from "up top" easy to make.
Ixnay the upitstay.
Before I list my not so serious response to the OP.. I have an issue with something.
"In short, the ROI for the financial risk by SOE to institute classic servers makes any decision from "up top" easy to make."
My issue with that is..
Having not merged the servers and the (log in every server and look around) very low player base. They are most likely losing money every month on the game. They are beyond the ROI arguement because the NGE turned out not to "be in the long term good" interest of the game. So you really have to believe they are trying to lose enough to get out of a contract or some such. Since at this point anything that could actually have a chance to bring profit back is worth trying.
Now on to my response (and most of these are not meant to be serious).
1) Less player quit per month now than before. So the NGE is obviously the way to go.
**You have to realize that no one at SOE is a math wiz. None of them have figured out that if you had a constant of a 10% player loss per month. That over time you have to lose less total players per month because you have a lower total to lose 10% of**
2) The NGE just hasn't had enough time yet to reach all the "star warsy" fans that are locked away in basements around the world.
3) The Smuggler update hasn't hit the live server yet.
**Just about anytime smugglers were to get something we see a game revamp**
4) The same person that told the "people in charge" that the CU had overwhelming support is giving them the subscriber totals (80 percent vet retention and more total subs than ever!!)
****
Actually you really have to look at other games and SOE isn't alone in how they act. Dark Age of Camelot is a good example. Mythic lost a lot of players because of various expansions and changes to the game. When we (I play still sometimes) asked for classic servers they laughed at us. Said it wouldn't be worth the effort etc etc..
They finally gave us classic servers which have been merged now. However, the classic cluster has the highest total player base of any server cluster in that game.
Before the cluster Gareth the server I play on had the highest total active player of all servers/clusters.
Somehow I really think that most companies just don't understand that we know more about what *we* want than they do...
So perhaps the biggest reason SOE won't make classic servers is... They really don't get it. Which really isn't something that is an SOE only problem. Almost every company would rather add crap nobody wants than to just fix the game we had and sometimes even love.
The pipe wont stop calling out................ Jeff Freeeeeeeeeman
While they could bring up pre-CU servers tomorrow if they wanted to, the problem is this Dev team knows nothing about it or how it works. Nor do they have any belief in the concepts behind it. So, they'd run it poorly (like they run the NGE ones well). The talent that could do it right is at Bioware Austin.
Also, the existing expansions beyond JTL wouldn't work with them without having to have all the mobs/items redone.
Really, at this point I don't care if the SOE idiots get their heads out of their asses or not, pre-CU servers ARE going to happen whether they want them or not.
And, frankly, now that I'm off the trainwreck, I have to say it is very personally satisfying to watch them go down.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
SWG:NGE is not the biggest steaming pile on there station pass deal therefor they can continue to claim some succes as long as it does better then some of the other titles and then scale back the costs to operate it.
I do belive; However, that adding classic servers to the station pass would also help the NGE as players would drop in from time to time to see if any progress has been made like adding back the lost professions and animations.
The point that classic servers is a logical buisness decision is probaly the biggest argument suporting the fact that SOE wont do it.
----------------------------------------
will never buy another sony product again, thanks SOE!
I happen to think that "classic Servers would be popular, but here is why they will not do it:
1) It is too expensive.
2) Not sure SoE knows how to really make this game work
3) Another change will kill the game
Concept for SWG 2
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/90081
-They wont release classic because they are just flat out obstinate, self righteous, and egotistical.
but I also feel they dont want to invest the time and monies it would take to develop and maintain a seperate classic server. Then you also have the expansions problem.
However, assuming that they do want to save SWG and that Classic is the only way to save it, I'm not really sure that there is a valid theory of why they wouldn't do it. The rules are a bit illogical and contradictory. No insult intended here Leel its just my opinion.
As far as the theory about players not wanting to start over, I dont think I believe that. Its true that tons of resources are redily available to buy when I started but I created a new crafter on a new server and wanted the full experience. I harvested my own minerals by hand. I was excited to create my very own first ore miner. It was extremely crappy and inneficient but it did the job. I steadily scanned and found better resources untill I made my own medium miner. It was a lot more fun than I thought it would be. To that end the great support behind the emu shows that many do want and are willing to start completely over for a precu swg experience. They are even willing to give up RotW and Trials of Kenobi for it.
-To that end I come to my final and best theory. They probably believe as I do that since SOE screwed the vets so hard, and didnt even buy us dinner first, that a large portion of the old subscribers wont return for the classic server for the sole reason that it would mean paying SOE more money and risking further humiliation at their hands and poor business savy.
I asked this myself to the highest person I could.
Here is why it's just not logical now.
Cost factor.
Maintenance structure..
Longivity and age of the product.
THe knowledge of the staff needed.
It is sad but the one thing the NGE did do right is make it a cheap game to run and manage. (In the end you get what you pay for though as always). Plus the kind of game it is now, is much easier to work on, with no complexity means less issues with the game. (Keep it simple stupid) stuff.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Theory 1:
It's because they are afraid of me. SOE sensed my growing power in the pre-cu world and feared it would spread into the real world. That is the real reason for the push to the CU and finally the hasty move to the NGE. A move to classic would certainly serve to strengthen my resolve and ulitmately bring about my utter domination of SWG and the real world as we know it.
Theory 2:
It is because of the world's smallest fiddle... playing just for you. Duh.
(I think Theory 1 will win tbh.)
John Smedley beat up my grandmother.
There was none of that in the CU, except from a few server transfer exploiters. And yet, with NGE, mass cancellations occured.
You're falling in the same pit here as SOE. Pre-cu wasn't about combat. And NGE didn't improve on anything that made SWG apealing.
Oh, and, good thing there's more diversity and balance now. It now really takes skill to fight. Right now, all it takes is a talent calculator, or better yet, the one template that suits the class. So you end up with 2 builds. One Jedi and one BH. Soon, there'll be 2 more.
Do you really believe that all those players that quit had 90% armor, legendary dots and perfect sabers? Would that make 50% of server population?
And, the best thing about SWG was, that you never could beat it. This was the whole point. There was no end-game as it exists in other games. But alas, NGE movement was driven by those that play MMOs to beat them and then spend a month in the end-game exclusively, complaining how there's no content once you level up. But hey, if it works for WoW, it has to be a good thing.
There was none of that in the CU, except from a few server transfer exploiters. And yet, with NGE, mass cancellations occured.
You're falling in the same pit here as SOE. Pre-cu wasn't about combat. And NGE didn't improve on anything that made SWG apealing.
Oh, and, good thing there's more diversity and balance now. It now really takes skill to fight. Right now, all it takes is a talent calculator, or better yet, the one template that suits the class. So you end up with 2 builds. One Jedi and one BH. Soon, there'll be 2 more.
Do you really believe that all those players that quit had 90% armor, legendary dots and perfect sabers? Would that make 50% of server population?
And, the best thing about SWG was, that you never could beat it. This was the whole point. There was no end-game as it exists in other games. But alas, NGE movement was driven by those that play MMOs to beat them and then spend a month in the end-game exclusively, complaining how there's no content once you level up. But hey, if it works for WoW, it has to be a good thing.
Nope, but I believe that stuff existing was a factor in many people quitting...
There was none of that in the CU, except from a few server transfer exploiters. And yet, with NGE, mass cancellations occured.
You're falling in the same pit here as SOE. Pre-cu wasn't about combat. And NGE didn't improve on anything that made SWG apealing.
Oh, and, good thing there's more diversity and balance now. It now really takes skill to fight. Right now, all it takes is a talent calculator, or better yet, the one template that suits the class. So you end up with 2 builds. One Jedi and one BH. Soon, there'll be 2 more.
Do you really believe that all those players that quit had 90% armor, legendary dots and perfect sabers? Would that make 50% of server population?
And, the best thing about SWG was, that you never could beat it. This was the whole point. There was no end-game as it exists in other games. But alas, NGE movement was driven by those that play MMOs to beat them and then spend a month in the end-game exclusively, complaining how there's no content once you level up. But hey, if it works for WoW, it has to be a good thing.
Nope, but I believe that stuff existing was a factor in many people quitting...
That was minor though now seeing the NGE, I think people complained because there was nothing to compare to it.
I know that 90% of those people would take it all back if they knew this was going to happen lol.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
That would make majority of players pvpers. Those things only mattered in limited aspects of pvp. Not all of it, of course.
But for some reason, I never remember pvp being the driving force behind SWG. It was the lag that made any larger pvp battles impossible. It was broken turrets, mines and similar nonsense that prevented engaging GCW. It was bugged DOTs that made CMs 4 times as powerful as they should be.
Do you really think all those players that quit knew about this stuff? Do you really believe that more than 20% of population actually knew there was 90% armor, triple sliced weapons and similar? You might be surprised...
Isn't it funny, that with all the pvp "improvements" made these days, there are no mass returns. If there were that many fans of SWG why aren't more people coming back? After all, it was always all about pvp. And people quit because there were legendary weapons, exploited items, CM uber dots, and perfect LS, broken and unplayable GCW, and more.
Well, none, and I mean, NONE of that is left in the game anymore. Where are all those players that quit because of that. If they loved pre-cu and played because they enjoyed it, but quit over those things, where are they now? Why aren't they returning once all this has been fixed? After all, we are talking 1-1.2 million potential subscriptions here.
"Nope, but I believe that stuff existing was a factor in many people quitting..."
And I'm going to say to that I guess that must depend on what server you were on.
About the time that EQ2/WoW released a lot of my friends list on Starsider emptied. That was for a 2 or 3 month period then they all came back.
In fact every person *I* knew or had on my friends list was back from just a few months after that november time frame... they were all there right up till the CU hit.
Obviously I can't say about other servers... But I had to take a break due to work travel. I came back this was say the June after the EQ2/WoW launch. I went over to coronet and was like holy $#%^ that's more people than I have seen before.. Theed same thing.. cantinas just packed etc
It was very odd.
I had various friends who did cancel.. but NOT because they didn't like the game.
They were in the military. When they came back from a certain region of the world they'd reactivate... then a few months later they were off again (relatively).
Like I said that's just one server.
But saying people quit because of "stuff in the game" like composite to me seems a pretty weak statement.
Because after CU and most certainly after NGE... all those cities.. the player cities.. just everything on starsider is a freakin ghost town.
I'm sorry but if people quit due to composite then I'd live with the crowded cities that weren't totally packed due to pissed off anti buff/composite people.. than the ghost towns this crap brought.
There was none of that in the CU, except from a few server transfer exploiters. And yet, with NGE, mass cancellations occured.
You're falling in the same pit here as SOE. Pre-cu wasn't about combat. And NGE didn't improve on anything that made SWG apealing.
Oh, and, good thing there's more diversity and balance now. It now really takes skill to fight. Right now, all it takes is a talent calculator, or better yet, the one template that suits the class. So you end up with 2 builds. One Jedi and one BH. Soon, there'll be 2 more.
Do you really believe that all those players that quit had 90% armor, legendary dots and perfect sabers? Would that make 50% of server population?
And, the best thing about SWG was, that you never could beat it. This was the whole point. There was no end-game as it exists in other games. But alas, NGE movement was driven by those that play MMOs to beat them and then spend a month in the end-game exclusively, complaining how there's no content once you level up. But hey, if it works for WoW, it has to be a good thing.
I didn't have any of that pre-CU. I had some stashed in houses, but I was a MAJOR packrat in SWG. I used off the shelf stun armor for PvP and regular 80% kinetic for PvE. The only looted things I used were some decent NS motors in my VK. I played my professions the way I wanted to. I didn't need the uber loot-camped stuff to compete. I played the profession I wanted to and learned it well. I've found that most people that cried about that stuff were the ones that just sucked in PvP. They didn't understand all the nuances of different professions and cried when they lost. If someone beats you, practice, learn more, get better. Don't try to find a lame excuse.
SWG Tempest: Cardo Dycen RIP
Eve: Cardoh Dycen
I support random drug testing for all SOE employees