Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by baphamet there is also gear to be gotten by soloing, witch you did not include in your "figures". either way it is pure speculation and your guess is as good as anyone els's on exactly what % of loot is attained from each type of gameplay.
It is written that the Ultimate sword of uberness won't be found in a casual area. Now, unless they start contradicting themselves, solo will not have any "best" reward directly. As you saw, I include tradeskills and diplomacy, which will be done mostly...soloing. So soloing will have it rewards...indirectly.
But the point of my post was not about the specific % and I even include a notion about it.
I was showing how raiding kills grouping...and it is quite safe to say that AT LEAST 20% of the best gear will be raid-acquired only.
Supposedly soloing (adventure sphere) will have some end game quests with end game quality gear. So that is missing from your figures, and I'm willing to bet that crafting provides well more than 15%, but as you said that isn't the point.
There are a few other flaws (to me) though. One is that since almost no items will be bind on equipe, etc. that means that items gotten on raids can be sold to non raiders. So those items can in fact be gotten without raiding. But the more important point is the speculation that a person who has no interest in raiding will for whatever reason have a great desire for raid dropped gear. Some people probably will, some people won't.
It is this particular notion that I have strong disagreement with your statements. Even if the raid gear was marginally better (which it doesn't appear to be, just simply different), why should I want it? If I can equipe myself with enough gear to be compentent on all the end game content I wish to try my hand at without raiding, then where would this desire for raid gear come from other than pure greed or pointless envy?
And why would someone who has no interest in raiding join a guild who is only focused on it when there is much end game content that has nothing to do with raiding?
Don't get me wrong I could see a raid focused end game guild "pressuring" members to raid and giving them a hard time for not showing up enough to them...my question is what would posses someone who does not need raid gear to be competent on all end game content (including raiding) and has no interest in raiding to join a raid centralized guild?
The basis of your argument could be equally leveraged to say that "soloing/tradskilling/diplomacy kills grouping" as some gear is only directly aquired via these avenues. Additionally some guilds are formed as tradeskilling guilds or incorporate that aspect as an itegral part and expect members to take care of some amount of tradeskilling to help supply the guild with a balanced amount and keep members well equipped for slots that they don't have covered from questing/grouping/soloing/raiding/whatever.
You're tag also on the surface sounds like flawless logic, until you realize that making awards for raiding only function on raids would then penalize people for not committing 100% to a given play style. (not to mention that since there is no zone's or instancing it would make for some rather silly scenarios..."OK ummm I think this place might be considered raid area...someone try on raid gear and see if it works..." maybe there could be markers or sign posts..."change into raid only gear here"...)
By making grouping rewards functional for raids and making raiding rewards functional in groups you ultimate give the player the freedom to choose their play style as they see fit. Most often I like grouping or soloing, but on occasion I have have wanted to actually see a raid. It would rather suck if I was forced to raid through all the other raid content just to get special gear that only works in raids to allow me to try a particular one as opposed to my non raid aquired gear working just peachy.
Likewise most people who like to raid regularly also enjoy group content. Why should they be penalized because their playstyle isn't 100% grouping?
In a nutshell the notion of rewards that only work for a given playstyle create barriers for a player to try different playstyle content. That is silly and counters the notion of being able to make your own choice of what you want to do. Its the equivalant of saying "yeah, you can solo if you want, but it won't help advance your character for the other 80% of the game".
The dev goal of VG is to make all avenues viable choices for the player, and to make content available to as large a range of playstyle as possible. AKA end gear, no matter how you get it, will make your character competent enough to try any content they see fit and continue to advance their character. The goal is keeping as many doors open as possible.
You're notion of making rewards of a playstyle only function for that playstyle when there are quite a few avaiable does not help serve that purpose, it only serves to close doors to people who want to try different peices of content at their own pace and their own choosing.
Yes I have seen a gap in raid rewards cause the issues you speak of and become a barrier to content in more than a few games. But, making raiding a barrier to content would appear to be something the devs of VG are choosing to avoid.
Will things actually turn out that way? I guess time will tell. Perhaps they can in fact maitain this balance, or perhaps not. But it is their goal to not restrict content based on raiding, this inherently means that raid rewards ultimately can not be a limiting factor or bottleneck to character advancement. I am more than a little curious to see how it all plays out.
There are a few other flaws (to me) though. One is that since almost no items will be bind on equipe, etc. that means that items gotten on raids can be sold to non raiders. So those items can in fact be gotten without raiding.
very nice informative post but just a FYI, most stuff at end game is in fact no drop or bind on pickup, whatever you want to call it.
i know the FAQ used to say that almost everything can be traded and whatnot but they have changed their minds because of all the farming companies that would exploit this.
i can dig the post up if you like but it might take me a while LOL, so just let me know.
Keep it simple. Long winded explanation always hide something. I looooove to group, I want to be the BEST grouper, so at least to be able to DREAM about it. Best plumbers are plumbers in life, not lawyers or doctors, but plumbers. Best groupers should be groupers. I also don't care what happen on the PvP server or on the Test server, someone get level 60 on the test server by typing /level60, fine, I can't care less, I ain't playing there. A grouping/non-raiding server is a must, it should have all the best rewards in it (on a LDoN-ish merchant at least) and peoples playing on other servers wouldn't care...unless they want to play with me, in which case they are free to join me on this non-raiding server or to accept that I ain't going to play on their server, no matter what. I will never ever again bear raiding, no matter the game. PvP maybe, raiding never.
For a player like me on their current proposal, I will get eventually to a point where I will have to either raid or accept to stop progressing, group-wise. Raiding to progress group-wise? A non-sense, it kill grouping, even a complete lack of progression and final achievement is better than that.
Peoples should be asked to do what they want to achieve. You want to be good at grouping, you should have to group. Tradeskills are no better, however, I will endure them and bear them, so I underline the main aspect that I will not endure. As tradeskills are simply boring, if raiding was only boring I would bear it, but it is extremely distateful, I rather be surrounded by 10 years old gankers than by raiders!!! PvP is less bad to grouping than raiding is. I rather PvP than raid...yet, I just want to avoid both. For some reason Brad understand the PvP-avoidance part, but he just can't get into his thick skull that raiding is even worser than PvP.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by solymnar Likewise most people who like to raid regularly also enjoy group content. Why should they be penalized because their playstyle isn't 100% grouping?
If you practice at baseball, you don't get better than a basketball player at basketball. Nothing prevent you to commit to both, however it is extremely unlikely that you will be a professionnal player in both leagues as each league is extremely requiring. Destroying the Basketball leagues wouldn't improve Baseball, it would only hurt Basketball and shaft everyone enjoying it.
In the actual form, someone who commit to Raiding will indeed be better than a grouper for every item he earn in raiding, which is unfair for any commited grouper. Groupers deserve to get EVERY best grouping tools in the grouping progression as the best way to get them. This is a grouping game, this is what they say. They have to understand that at least, they need to offer REAL grouping servers, where peoples can earn EVERYTHING they need inside groups. I mean, they keep stammering they are building a grouping game, why enforce non-grouping activity on every player? Doesn't a grouper have at least the right to avoid such activities on "specific grouping servers"?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by solymnar Likewise most people who like to raid regularly also enjoy group content. Why should they be penalized because their playstyle isn't 100% grouping?
If you practice at baseball, you don't get better than a basketball player at basketball. Nothing prevent you to commit to both, however it is extremely unlikely that you will be a professionnal player in both leagues as each league is extremely requiring. Destroying the Basketball leagues wouldn't improve Baseball, it would only hurt Basketball and shaft everyone enjoying it.
In the actual form, someone who commit to Raiding will indeed be better than a grouper for every item he earn in raiding, which is unfair for any commited grouper. Groupers deserve to get EVERY best grouping tools in the grouping progression as the best way to get them. This is a grouping game, this is what they say. They have to understand that at least, they need to offer REAL grouping servers, where peoples can earn EVERYTHING they need inside groups. I mean, they keep stammering they are building a grouping game, why enforce non-grouping activity on every player? Doesn't a grouper have at least the right to avoid such activities on "specific grouping servers"?
Fine then just put in a Boss Kill Point system. Lets call this system BKP. Then put in some vendors all over the place, maybe even some hidden ones whose location you can't disclose except on pain of death (real life death). That people can use their BKP to buy the best items. Then both styles are rewarded.
Oh but then that gets away from teh deliciously addictive and neurotic random drop system. Well we can't have that.
It's crazy but I finally get where you are comming from. And while I still suspect that the balance the devs are shooting for will work fine for me and most people in general so long as raiding never becomes a bottleneck to content... I finally get your view on things.
Your idea of a special server that is group only would be a very interesting one. The devs could do this by (yuck) simply eliminating all raid content or (one would hope) retune the raid content on said server to be accomplishable by a dedicated group.
The ONLY major issue I could see with this is if someone played on this group only server and then transfered to another server (assuming char transfers are even an option) I can picture people having a problem with that even if the returned content still takes just as much time and effort.
AKA they would have no legitamate claim to complain but I could still see it happening.
It would be a very impressive thing, and would take a good chunk of dev time to get it right but I can picture more than a few people making it their main server. I like the idea, its just a matter of how much time it would take to adjust and retune 20% of the content for grouping. 20% is still a pretty big chunk. I'm willing to bet there is no way it would make release (too much dev resources needed) but it's a rather neat option to consider down the road. And more server options is rarely a bad thing.
PS Baph thanks for the heads up! That's dissapointing to hear but I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.
Fine then just put in a Boss Kill Point system. Lets call this system BKP. Then put in some vendors all over the place, maybe even some hidden ones whose location you can't disclose except on pain of death (real life death). That people can use their BKP to buy the best items. Then both styles are rewarded. Oh but then that gets away from teh deliciously addictive and neurotic random drop system. Well we can't have that.
The problem typically encountered with faction farming systems for rewards is that they tend to discourage exploration and encourage grinding for max efficiency. Which while it is the player's choice to do so tends to make a game more boring over all. Having some degree of this is promising but making it a primary mech is probably not such a good idea from what I've seen. But hey, there are tradeoffs and hurdles with everything right?
I apologize if I'm misunderstanding people but it seems like some people think groupers and raiders are 2 different things. In any of the games i have enjoyed, grouping was basically requisite, and soloers usually made bad raiders. That aside it seems as if your grouping and raiding, the rewards should be that much better. If your doing everything that someone who doesn't raid is doing and also putting in hours for raiding you should be rewarded for your extra commitment. Dont get me wrong, its unforgivable for a game to demand raiding out of an individual if they dont enjoy raiding. Choosing not to raid should not mean you can't compete with a raider. I certainly agree with everyone on that count.
I dont think i would completely mind a grouping only server, but i feel that if they make that concession why not just make a game without raiding. Add in the fact that i feel that the rewards would be gotten easier than on a raiding server. All things being equal, raiding will always be harder than just grouping. Its inherently harder to get together 7 skilled people than it is to get 6 people together. Scale that up to 12 and you see how things become more difficult. I know we've all seen that argument made, but i find it to be valid. I feel a grouping only server would be as unfair as raiders being significantly more powered than grouping only people.
Originally posted by solymnar Originally posted by gestalt11
Fine then just put in a Boss Kill Point system. Lets call this system BKP. Then put in some vendors all over the place, maybe even some hidden ones whose location you can't disclose except on pain of death (real life death). That people can use their BKP to buy the best items. Then both styles are rewarded. Oh but then that gets away from teh deliciously addictive and neurotic random drop system. Well we can't have that.
The problem typically encountered with faction farming systems for rewards is that they tend to discourage exploration and encourage grinding for max efficiency. Which while it is the player's choice to do so tends to make a game more boring over all. Having some degree of this is promising but making it a primary mech is probably not such a good idea from what I've seen. But hey, there are tradeoffs and hurdles with everything right?
How do random drops prevent this? Random drops encourage farming as well. In fact you could guarantee no famring with a point system if done right, but could never guarantee it with randoms due to the drop table etc.
The problem with a "BKP" system would be what motivation do players have to defeat more difficult encounters once they've mastered a particular boss. If they can get a single encounter down to averaging 10 BKP's a night Why bother trying new encounters and "waste" time. They'll get the same loot by buying from the vendors. Of course there are ways around it, faction grinds, flags, but it ends up being the same farm. By itemizing boss mobs with specific loot you push people into new encounters. With a strict point system, you lose the incentive to explore and kill new monsters. AS stated above very limited version of this whereby everyone on a raid could be rewarded would be promising. But i dont feel it should result in the best gear, but certainly rewarding enough to make it worthwhile.
There are a few other flaws (to me) though. One is that since almost no items will be bind on equipe, etc. that means that items gotten on raids can be sold to non raiders. So those items can in fact be gotten without raiding.
very nice informative post but just a FYI, most stuff at end game is in fact no drop or bind on pickup, whatever you want to call it.
i know the FAQ used to say that almost everything can be traded and whatnot but they have changed their minds because of all the farming companies that would exploit this.
i can dig the post up if you like but it might take me a while LOL, so just let me know.
I really hope the items wont be BoP. Farmers and botters always will be there in such games they r always finding something to sell for real money. Look at WoW best items are always BoP but there are still alot of botters and farmers who sell gold, make power leveling services and all that shit.
Why I dont want BoP items is simple. Lets say you are playing a mage and find some cool stuff for a warrior then i would love to keep it for my next toon I always loved this in like Diablo2 or Sacred. Its fun to collect some real nice gear for your next toon and pimp him a bit. Thats what I really miss in WoW ...
They should just take care about the botters not like in WoW you see a botter and report him and you still will see him farming there 1 month after ....
I just dont want that botters, farmers, cheaters or wutever ruin the fun for me in a game (like companies cant handle it and say then oh ok we make Gold BoP, we make Items BoP etc. so they cant sell it, its shit), if ppls think they have to buy stuff for real money fine let em as long its not so bad with the botters like in Lineage2 or so its fine for me. You never can avoid cheaters, exploters, botters or wutever in any kind of games its not possible anyways just have always an eye open for em and ban if you know that they r botters ... so there arent millions of em on one server :P. Well I guess you know what I mean and sorry for my crappy english.
Originally posted by crusher143 Originally posted by baphametOriginally posted by solymnar There are a few other flaws (to me) though. One is that since almost no items will be bind on equipe, etc. that means that items gotten on raids can be sold to non raiders. So those items can in fact be gotten without raiding. very nice informative post but just a FYI, most stuff at end game is in fact no drop or bind on pickup, whatever you want to call it. i know the FAQ used to say that almost everything can be traded and whatnot but they have changed their minds because of all the farming companies that would exploit this. i can dig the post up if you like but it might take me a while LOL, so just let me know. I really hope the items wont be BoP. Farmers and botters always will be there in such games they r always finding something to sell for real money. Look at WoW best items are always BoP but there are still alot of botters and farmers who sell gold, make power leveling services and all that shit.Why I dont want BoP items is simple. Lets say you are playing a mage and find some cool stuff for a warrior then i would love to keep it for my next toon I always loved this in like Diablo2 or Sacred. Its fun to collect some real nice gear for your next toon and pimp him a bit. Thats what I really miss in WoW ...They should just take care about the botters not like in WoW you see a botter and report him and you still will see him farming there 1 month after ....I just dont want that botters, farmers, cheaters or wutever ruin the fun for me in a game (like companies cant handle it and say then oh ok we make Gold BoP, we make Items BoP etc. so they cant sell it, its shit), if ppls think they have to buy stuff for real money fine let em as long its not so bad with the botters like in Lineage2 or so its fine for me. You never can avoid cheaters, exploters, botters or wutever in any kind of games its not possible anyways just have always an eye open for em and ban if you know that they r botters ... so there arent millions of em on one server :P.Well I guess you know what I mean and sorry for my crappy english.
i feel your pain, i used to love twinking my characters in d2 and eq1. but if everything can be boughten and traded people will be able to ebay entire sets of end game gear.
even though people will still ebay currency and items/accounts probably, at least they will not be able to sell the best stuff in the game and you will actually have to get the stuff yourself, no matter how rich you are IRL.
i hope there is still alot of stuff that can be boughten and traded just not the best stuff, the way eq1 did it was great but they need to do it with small group and solo loot as well IMO.
Originally posted by solymnar Anofyle It's crazy but I finally get where you are comming from. And while I still suspect that the balance the devs are shooting for will work fine for me and most people in general so long as raiding never becomes a bottleneck to content... I finally get your view on things. Your idea of a special server that is group only would be a very interesting one. The devs could do this by (yuck) simply eliminating all raid content or (one would hope) retune the raid content on said server to be accomplishable by a dedicated group. The ONLY major issue I could see with this is if someone played on this group only server and then transfered to another server (assuming char transfers are even an option) I can picture people having a problem with that even if the returned content still takes just as much time and effort. AKA they would have no legitamate claim to complain but I could still see it happening. It would be a very impressive thing, and would take a good chunk of dev time to get it right but I can picture more than a few people making it their main server. I like the idea, its just a matter of how much time it would take to adjust and retune 20% of the content for grouping. 20% is still a pretty big chunk. I'm willing to bet there is no way it would make release (too much dev resources needed) but it's a rather neat option to consider down the road. And more server options is rarely a bad thing.
PS Baph thanks for the heads up! That's dissapointing to hear but I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.
And whenever this date is, the release of the non-raiding server(s), is the date I would buy Vanguard, not 1 day before. And yes, there would be many peoples calling such a server home. In fact, I think I could draw some peoples who are really Verant-haters back to the genre... this is THE big thing that would make me play Vanguard. I may complain about old meditating books, boats, tradeskills, diplomacy...but, I will do it and I will more or less enjoy these activities! A more positive name would be better, but "non-raiding" is rather clear and why I stick to such a name atm.
For server transfert, in old EQ they use to transfer you gearless. Work for me, as long as they have the same rules for all transfer (excluding the premium, which I don't mind, these peoples pay extra money, which justify differents rules...I guess, but out of game services should use such justifications).
Such a specific server would turn me from a "don't buy" position to a vanboi; so be VERY afraid of talking to me AFTER the announcement of such a server (I know I am dreaming now, but ain't that the point of a forum?)....yeah despite all it flaws, it would be enough to make me believe a lot in them (not as much as BioWare, but getting in that direction). 20% of the content is massive indeed, but they could do something easy like NPC merchants (as in LDoN) as a temporary solution and adjust later, based on this specific server rule. I know investors don't like to spent a lot of money right away...but such a server with a clear note that based on it popularity specific works will be done at later point to make it more interesting, that is plenty and not yet a precise promise, which is the type of stuff investors usually enjoy. However, baby steps would prolly work just well and show the general interest of the player-base for such a specific server-set. If they have to open 3 new servers a month after release, all with such rule sets(non-raiding), it is easy to justificate the work for 20% of the content...It is not much work to put all the raiding-stuff on a few merchants as the first step for such a server (might rework differently later, most likely for expansions where it could be taken into account at the right moment rather than patched).
I would play and buy Vanguard with a non-raiding server, and I do think MANY players will. How many I don't know, but I think it would become the main servers in time, drawing more casuals players and any players that for any reason don't want to raid and is firm about this aspect (many such players, WoW developp this a lot with raid-enforcement to such a scope).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by solymnar Anofyle It's crazy but I finally get where you are comming from. And while I still suspect that the balance the devs are shooting for will work fine for me and most people in general so long as raiding never becomes a bottleneck to content... I finally get your view on things. Your idea of a special server that is group only would be a very interesting one. The devs could do this by (yuck) simply eliminating all raid content or (one would hope) retune the raid content on said server to be accomplishable by a dedicated group. The ONLY major issue I could see with this is if someone played on this group only server and then transfered to another server (assuming char transfers are even an option) I can picture people having a problem with that even if the returned content still takes just as much time and effort. AKA they would have no legitamate claim to complain but I could still see it happening. It would be a very impressive thing, and would take a good chunk of dev time to get it right but I can picture more than a few people making it their main server. I like the idea, its just a matter of how much time it would take to adjust and retune 20% of the content for grouping. 20% is still a pretty big chunk. I'm willing to bet there is no way it would make release (too much dev resources needed) but it's a rather neat option to consider down the road. And more server options is rarely a bad thing. :DPS Baph thanks for the heads up! That's dissapointing to hear but I guess we'll have to see how it plays out. :(And whenever this date is, the release of the non-raiding server(s), is the date I would buy Vanguard, not 1 day before. And yes, there would be many peoples calling such a server home. In fact, I think I could draw some peoples who are really Verant-haters back to the genre... this is THE big thing that would make me play Vanguard. I may complain about old meditating books, boats, tradeskills, diplomacy...but, I will do it and I will more or less enjoy these activities! A more positive name would be better, but "non-raiding" is rather clear and why I stick to such a name atm. For server transfert, in old EQ they use to transfer you gearless. Work for me, as long as they have the same rules for all transfer (excluding the premium, which I don't mind, these peoples pay extra money, which justify differents rules...I guess, but out of game services should use such justifications). Such a specific server would turn me from a "don't buy" position to a vanboi; so be VERY afraid of talking to me AFTER the announcement of such a server (I know I am dreaming now, but ain't that the point of a forum?)....yeah despite all it flaws, it would be enough to make me believe a lot in them (not as much as BioWare, but getting in that direction). 20% of the content is massive indeed, but they could do something easy like NPC merchants (as in LDoN) as a temporary solution and adjust later, based on this specific server rule. I know investors don't like to spent a lot of money right away...but such a server with a clear note that based on it popularity specific works will be done at later point to make it more interesting, that is plenty and not yet a precise promise, which is the type of stuff investors usually enjoy. However, baby steps would prolly work just well and show the general interest of the player-base for such a specific server-set. If they have to open 3 new servers a month after release, all with such rule sets(non-raiding), it is easy to justificate the work for 20% of the content...It is not much work to put all the raiding-stuff on a few merchants as the first step for such a server (might rework differently later, most likely for expansions where it could be taken into account at the right moment rather than patched).I would play and buy Vanguard with a non-raiding server, and I do think MANY players will. How many I don't know, but I think it would become the main servers in time, drawing more casuals players and any players that for any reason don't want to raid and is firm about this aspect (many such players, WoW developp this a lot with raid-enforcement to such a scope).
have you ever actually proposed the question if their might possibly be a alternate ruleset server with no raiding on the official vanguard forums?
i know you complain about it alot here but why don't you actually ask a Dev about it and bring it to their attention? if so many people want a non raiding server like you say i am sure you will have no problem getting them to support your ideas there.
BKP are cools, yet incomplete. Used for SOME of the best stuff, they really helps a LOT. They are easy to implement and little work, which is something devs like when talking with investors. DKP also encourage the "less skilled" players who are willing to dedicated time, which IMO is fine and sweet.
But BKP alone are incomplete, they are not enough in the long term. For me they are the first baby step in the right direction. Some peoples will master such a system and no play further, because this is simply their personnal limit (either for skill or for tastes). I am sure something "deeper" could be thinked to cater these players further without giving them everything everywhere. See, "banes-items" that are specialised for some hunting would be quite possible in such a system, and they require very little work beside the visual and basic prog. Nobody will see a problem that a suit of armor is specialised against Highpaws Kobolds and that this suit is earned with BKP at some merchant and that no gear in the game can come close to this specialised gear, as long as you hunt Highpaws Kobolds. More goals, more objectives, more interesting options. A suit of armor to kill a precise enemy that always remains the best against these enemy is far more interesting to earned for a player than a suit that will be completely useless forever in a few levels. Un-trivialising loot is important, and having specific properties for specific situations is definitely interesting. In 12 expansions, it will still be interesting to earn these items, as they are the best to hunt these kobolds...and they may have re-appeared in expansion 11 in some deep dungeon at level 75, but they are still there and the player is happy to find back his old gear for these kobolds as he earn better "overall" stuff or armors for other place...but all this is speculative.
BKP systems as in LDoN is a very good baby step in the right direction.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
have you ever actually proposed the question if their might possibly be a alternate ruleset server with no raiding on the official vanguard forums?
i know you complain about it alot here but why don't you actually ask a Dev about it and bring it to their attention? if so many people want a non raiding server like you say i am sure you will have no problem getting them to support your ideas there.
A dev have answered me: "Interesting" and ask me to elaborate. Which I did, and never see another reply.
I am sure some peoples could be found to support the idea, but you must remember, this idea appeal mostly to peoples who are less likely to go on forums...casuals are less likely to read the forum than me or folks in big guilds, guilds despite everything I may have as grudges with them, often read the official forums and transmit the information to the servers...such specific servers are appealing mostly to the peoples at this end of this spectrum, peoples reading the forums are usually belonging to a minority.
I could certainly have debated it more, talk it more...but well, I didn't. I give the idea openly, I explain it, then they are free to do what they want from it.
The Vanguard forums are cool, but I only dwell here on a regular basic...and I don't get very well with peoples from FoH or AL or many uberguilds as you prolly notice, thereby I feel less inclined to go there and read many harsh reactions (Ste is a cool and composed guy compared to some folks over there). I am sure you noticed, raiders tend to stick on the source where it might help them to raid, here, the MMORPG.com, is a more open community and...it attract a lot of PvPers, not exactly the same community! As a "grouping Care Bear", I feel better and more at home surrounded by theses PvPers than I would with raiders, as PvPers are not caring much about my issues, they are not seeing me as an opponent, someone they have to argue with...and many of them have the same issues about raiding!
Anyway, the idea was launched there, launched here, debated over and over. Anyone is free to spread it! Ideas are free to travel! I don't think that me, going there, debating it, would further the good-developpment of this idea.
Here, I am warning some peoples of the current state of the game, so some fellow players with similar taste might double check and don't underestimate this "20%" as something trivial, it isn't. 20% is a LOT. So I feel useful to some players...and peoples here are far more likely to like the idea than peoples on the Vanguard forums, should we speak about it...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by baphamet
have you ever actually proposed the question if their might possibly be a alternate ruleset server with no raiding on the official vanguard forums? i know you complain about it alot here but why don't you actually ask a Dev about it and bring it to their attention? if so many people want a non raiding server like you say i am sure you will have no problem getting them to support your ideas there.
A dev have answered me: "Interesting" and ask me to elaborate. Which I did, and never see another reply.
I am sure some peoples could be found to support the idea, but you must remember, this idea appeal mostly to peoples who are less likely to go on forums...casuals are less likely to read the forum than me or folks in big guilds, guilds despite everything I may have as grudges with them, often read the official forums and transmit the information to the servers...such specific servers are appealing mostly to the peoples at this end of this spectrum, peoples reading the forums are usually belonging to a minority.
very true, usually people that visit forums for any mmorpg are not casual players. but from reading all your posts i get the impression that you and all your RL friends (that you frequently mention are in agreement with you) are not casual gamers you just hate raiding?
isn't that the argument i always read from you and pantastic? that you just don't want forced raiding and it has nothing to do with being a casual gamer?
again i see your point about casuals not liking raids because they are time consuming, and they are the vocal minority on any forum.... but casuals will also not have enough time to group in most mmorpg's either.
i honestly believe people like you (hardcore or semi-hardcore gamers that don't want forced raiding) are indeed the minority, and if i am wrong then there should be plenty of people that would be willing to support your ideas...maybe not on the vanguard forums but on these forums or some other gaming forum.
i find it highly unlikely that there are all these hardcore or semi hardcore gamers out there that hate forced raiding but yet very few of them would be willing to support your ideas.
i mean, at the very least you could find some people that support your ideas and have them go to the vanguard forums and voice that opinion.
IMHO that would do a whole lot more for your cause then coming here and making 100's of posts complaining about it when it is alot less likely your opinion will be heard by anybody that can do anything about it.
i would even support you on the vanguard forums with your idea about a non raiding server and having a npc where you buy the raid gear with points you earn from doing small group tasks (similar to LDON).
i think its a decent idea, the only problem is not alot of casuals will be interested in a game like vanguard and i also think people like you who don't seem to be casual but refuse to play a game with forced raiding are a minority.
and that is why you probably wont get alot of support for a non raiding server, unless you can get more casual people interested in vanguard or get more people like you to go to the vanguard forums and support your idea.
Originally posted by baphamet i would even support you on the vanguard forums with your idea about a non raiding server and having a npc where you buy the raid gear with points you earn from doing small group tasks (similar to LDON).
Thread already exists on the official forum. Better to bump it than start a new one.
Comments
It is written that the Ultimate sword of uberness won't be found in a casual area. Now, unless they start contradicting themselves, solo will not have any "best" reward directly. As you saw, I include tradeskills and diplomacy, which will be done mostly...soloing. So soloing will have it rewards...indirectly.
But the point of my post was not about the specific % and I even include a notion about it.
I was showing how raiding kills grouping...and it is quite safe to say that AT LEAST 20% of the best gear will be raid-acquired only.
Supposedly soloing (adventure sphere) will have some end game quests with end game quality gear. So that is missing from your figures, and I'm willing to bet that crafting provides well more than 15%, but as you said that isn't the point.
There are a few other flaws (to me) though. One is that since almost no items will be bind on equipe, etc. that means that items gotten on raids can be sold to non raiders. So those items can in fact be gotten without raiding. But the more important point is the speculation that a person who has no interest in raiding will for whatever reason have a great desire for raid dropped gear. Some people probably will, some people won't.
It is this particular notion that I have strong disagreement with your statements. Even if the raid gear was marginally better (which it doesn't appear to be, just simply different), why should I want it? If I can equipe myself with enough gear to be compentent on all the end game content I wish to try my hand at without raiding, then where would this desire for raid gear come from other than pure greed or pointless envy?
And why would someone who has no interest in raiding join a guild who is only focused on it when there is much end game content that has nothing to do with raiding?
Don't get me wrong I could see a raid focused end game guild "pressuring" members to raid and giving them a hard time for not showing up enough to them...my question is what would posses someone who does not need raid gear to be competent on all end game content (including raiding) and has no interest in raiding to join a raid centralized guild?
The basis of your argument could be equally leveraged to say that "soloing/tradskilling/diplomacy kills grouping" as some gear is only directly aquired via these avenues. Additionally some guilds are formed as tradeskilling guilds or incorporate that aspect as an itegral part and expect members to take care of some amount of tradeskilling to help supply the guild with a balanced amount and keep members well equipped for slots that they don't have covered from questing/grouping/soloing/raiding/whatever.
You're tag also on the surface sounds like flawless logic, until you realize that making awards for raiding only function on raids would then penalize people for not committing 100% to a given play style. (not to mention that since there is no zone's or instancing it would make for some rather silly scenarios..."OK ummm I think this place might be considered raid area...someone try on raid gear and see if it works..." maybe there could be markers or sign posts..."change into raid only gear here"...)
By making grouping rewards functional for raids and making raiding rewards functional in groups you ultimate give the player the freedom to choose their play style as they see fit. Most often I like grouping or soloing, but on occasion I have have wanted to actually see a raid. It would rather suck if I was forced to raid through all the other raid content just to get special gear that only works in raids to allow me to try a particular one as opposed to my non raid aquired gear working just peachy.
Likewise most people who like to raid regularly also enjoy group content. Why should they be penalized because their playstyle isn't 100% grouping?
In a nutshell the notion of rewards that only work for a given playstyle create barriers for a player to try different playstyle content. That is silly and counters the notion of being able to make your own choice of what you want to do. Its the equivalant of saying "yeah, you can solo if you want, but it won't help advance your character for the other 80% of the game".
The dev goal of VG is to make all avenues viable choices for the player, and to make content available to as large a range of playstyle as possible. AKA end gear, no matter how you get it, will make your character competent enough to try any content they see fit and continue to advance their character. The goal is keeping as many doors open as possible.
You're notion of making rewards of a playstyle only function for that playstyle when there are quite a few avaiable does not help serve that purpose, it only serves to close doors to people who want to try different peices of content at their own pace and their own choosing.
Yes I have seen a gap in raid rewards cause the issues you speak of and become a barrier to content in more than a few games. But, making raiding a barrier to content would appear to be something the devs of VG are choosing to avoid.
Will things actually turn out that way? I guess time will tell. Perhaps they can in fact maitain this balance, or perhaps not. But it is their goal to not restrict content based on raiding, this inherently means that raid rewards ultimately can not be a limiting factor or bottleneck to character advancement. I am more than a little curious to see how it all plays out.
very nice informative post but just a FYI, most stuff at end game is in fact no drop or bind on pickup, whatever you want to call it.
i know the FAQ used to say that almost everything can be traded and whatnot but they have changed their minds because of all the farming companies that would exploit this.
i can dig the post up if you like but it might take me a while LOL, so just let me know.
Solymar,
Keep it simple. Long winded explanation always hide something. I looooove to group, I want to be the BEST grouper, so at least to be able to DREAM about it. Best plumbers are plumbers in life, not lawyers or doctors, but plumbers. Best groupers should be groupers. I also don't care what happen on the PvP server or on the Test server, someone get level 60 on the test server by typing /level60, fine, I can't care less, I ain't playing there. A grouping/non-raiding server is a must, it should have all the best rewards in it (on a LDoN-ish merchant at least) and peoples playing on other servers wouldn't care...unless they want to play with me, in which case they are free to join me on this non-raiding server or to accept that I ain't going to play on their server, no matter what. I will never ever again bear raiding, no matter the game. PvP maybe, raiding never.
For a player like me on their current proposal, I will get eventually to a point where I will have to either raid or accept to stop progressing, group-wise. Raiding to progress group-wise? A non-sense, it kill grouping, even a complete lack of progression and final achievement is better than that.
Peoples should be asked to do what they want to achieve. You want to be good at grouping, you should have to group. Tradeskills are no better, however, I will endure them and bear them, so I underline the main aspect that I will not endure. As tradeskills are simply boring, if raiding was only boring I would bear it, but it is extremely distateful, I rather be surrounded by 10 years old gankers than by raiders!!! PvP is less bad to grouping than raiding is. I rather PvP than raid...yet, I just want to avoid both. For some reason Brad understand the PvP-avoidance part, but he just can't get into his thick skull that raiding is even worser than PvP.- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If you practice at baseball, you don't get better than a basketball player at basketball. Nothing prevent you to commit to both, however it is extremely unlikely that you will be a professionnal player in both leagues as each league is extremely requiring. Destroying the Basketball leagues wouldn't improve Baseball, it would only hurt Basketball and shaft everyone enjoying it.
In the actual form, someone who commit to Raiding will indeed be better than a grouper for every item he earn in raiding, which is unfair for any commited grouper. Groupers deserve to get EVERY best grouping tools in the grouping progression as the best way to get them. This is a grouping game, this is what they say. They have to understand that at least, they need to offer REAL grouping servers, where peoples can earn EVERYTHING they need inside groups. I mean, they keep stammering they are building a grouping game, why enforce non-grouping activity on every player? Doesn't a grouper have at least the right to avoid such activities on "specific grouping servers"?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If you practice at baseball, you don't get better than a basketball player at basketball. Nothing prevent you to commit to both, however it is extremely unlikely that you will be a professionnal player in both leagues as each league is extremely requiring. Destroying the Basketball leagues wouldn't improve Baseball, it would only hurt Basketball and shaft everyone enjoying it.
In the actual form, someone who commit to Raiding will indeed be better than a grouper for every item he earn in raiding, which is unfair for any commited grouper. Groupers deserve to get EVERY best grouping tools in the grouping progression as the best way to get them. This is a grouping game, this is what they say. They have to understand that at least, they need to offer REAL grouping servers, where peoples can earn EVERYTHING they need inside groups. I mean, they keep stammering they are building a grouping game, why enforce non-grouping activity on every player? Doesn't a grouper have at least the right to avoid such activities on "specific grouping servers"?
Fine then just put in a Boss Kill Point system. Lets call this system BKP. Then put in some vendors all over the place, maybe even some hidden ones whose location you can't disclose except on pain of death (real life death). That people can use their BKP to buy the best items. Then both styles are rewarded.
Oh but then that gets away from teh deliciously addictive and neurotic random drop system. Well we can't have that.
I apologize if I'm misunderstanding people but it seems like some people think groupers and raiders are 2 different things. In any of the games i have enjoyed, grouping was basically requisite, and soloers usually made bad raiders. That aside it seems as if your grouping and raiding, the rewards should be that much better. If your doing everything that someone who doesn't raid is doing and also putting in hours for raiding you should be rewarded for your extra commitment. Dont get me wrong, its unforgivable for a game to demand raiding out of an individual if they dont enjoy raiding. Choosing not to raid should not mean you can't compete with a raider. I certainly agree with everyone on that count.
I dont think i would completely mind a grouping only server, but i feel that if they make that concession why not just make a game without raiding. Add in the fact that i feel that the rewards would be gotten easier than on a raiding server. All things being equal, raiding will always be harder than just grouping. Its inherently harder to get together 7 skilled people than it is to get 6 people together. Scale that up to 12 and you see how things become more difficult. I know we've all seen that argument made, but i find it to be valid. I feel a grouping only server would be as unfair as raiders being significantly more powered than grouping only people.
How do random drops prevent this? Random drops encourage farming as well. In fact you could guarantee no famring with a point system if done right, but could never guarantee it with randoms due to the drop table etc.
very nice informative post but just a FYI, most stuff at end game is in fact no drop or bind on pickup, whatever you want to call it.
i know the FAQ used to say that almost everything can be traded and whatnot but they have changed their minds because of all the farming companies that would exploit this.
i can dig the post up if you like but it might take me a while LOL, so just let me know.
I really hope the items wont be BoP. Farmers and botters always will be there in such games they r always finding something to sell for real money. Look at WoW best items are always BoP but there are still alot of botters and farmers who sell gold, make power leveling services and all that shit.
Why I dont want BoP items is simple. Lets say you are playing a mage and find some cool stuff for a warrior then i would love to keep it for my next toon I always loved this in like Diablo2 or Sacred. Its fun to collect some real nice gear for your next toon and pimp him a bit. Thats what I really miss in WoW ...
They should just take care about the botters not like in WoW you see a botter and report him and you still will see him farming there 1 month after ....
I just dont want that botters, farmers, cheaters or wutever ruin the fun for me in a game (like companies cant handle it and say then oh ok we make Gold BoP, we make Items BoP etc. so they cant sell it, its shit), if ppls think they have to buy stuff for real money fine let em as long its not so bad with the botters like in Lineage2 or so its fine for me. You never can avoid cheaters, exploters, botters or wutever in any kind of games its not possible anyways just have always an eye open for em and ban if you know that they r botters ... so there arent millions of em on one server :P.
Well I guess you know what I mean and sorry for my crappy english.
i feel your pain, i used to love twinking my characters in d2 and eq1. but if everything can be boughten and traded people will be able to ebay entire sets of end game gear.
even though people will still ebay currency and items/accounts probably, at least they will not be able to sell the best stuff in the game and you will actually have to get the stuff yourself, no matter how rich you are IRL.
i hope there is still alot of stuff that can be boughten and traded just not the best stuff, the way eq1 did it was great but they need to do it with small group and solo loot as well IMO.
And whenever this date is, the release of the non-raiding server(s), is the date I would buy Vanguard, not 1 day before.
And yes, there would be many peoples calling such a server home. In fact, I think I could draw some peoples who are really Verant-haters back to the genre... this is THE big thing that would make me play Vanguard. I may complain about old meditating books, boats, tradeskills, diplomacy...but, I will do it and I will more or less enjoy these activities! A more positive name would be better, but "non-raiding" is rather clear and why I stick to such a name atm.
For server transfert, in old EQ they use to transfer you gearless. Work for me, as long as they have the same rules for all transfer (excluding the premium, which I don't mind, these peoples pay extra money, which justify differents rules...I guess, but out of game services should use such justifications).
Such a specific server would turn me from a "don't buy" position to a vanboi; so be VERY afraid of talking to me AFTER the announcement of such a server (I know I am dreaming now, but ain't that the point of a forum?)....yeah despite all it flaws, it would be enough to make me believe a lot in them (not as much as BioWare, but getting in that direction). 20% of the content is massive indeed, but they could do something easy like NPC merchants (as in LDoN) as a temporary solution and adjust later, based on this specific server rule. I know investors don't like to spent a lot of money right away...but such a server with a clear note that based on it popularity specific works will be done at later point to make it more interesting, that is plenty and not yet a precise promise, which is the type of stuff investors usually enjoy. However, baby steps would prolly work just well and show the general interest of the player-base for such a specific server-set. If they have to open 3 new servers a month after release, all with such rule sets(non-raiding), it is easy to justificate the work for 20% of the content...It is not much work to put all the raiding-stuff on a few merchants as the first step for such a server (might rework differently later, most likely for expansions where it could be taken into account at the right moment rather than patched).
I would play and buy Vanguard with a non-raiding server, and I do think MANY players will. How many I don't know, but I think it would become the main servers in time, drawing more casuals players and any players that for any reason don't want to raid and is firm about this aspect (many such players, WoW developp this a lot with raid-enforcement to such a scope).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
have you ever actually proposed the question if their might possibly be a alternate ruleset server with no raiding on the official vanguard forums?
i know you complain about it alot here but why don't you actually ask a Dev about it and bring it to their attention? if so many people want a non raiding server like you say i am sure you will have no problem getting them to support your ideas there.
BKP are cools, yet incomplete. Used for SOME of the best stuff, they really helps a LOT. They are easy to implement and little work, which is something devs like when talking with investors. DKP also encourage the "less skilled" players who are willing to dedicated time, which IMO is fine and sweet.
But BKP alone are incomplete, they are not enough in the long term. For me they are the first baby step in the right direction. Some peoples will master such a system and no play further, because this is simply their personnal limit (either for skill or for tastes). I am sure something "deeper" could be thinked to cater these players further without giving them everything everywhere. See, "banes-items" that are specialised for some hunting would be quite possible in such a system, and they require very little work beside the visual and basic prog. Nobody will see a problem that a suit of armor is specialised against Highpaws Kobolds and that this suit is earned with BKP at some merchant and that no gear in the game can come close to this specialised gear, as long as you hunt Highpaws Kobolds. More goals, more objectives, more interesting options. A suit of armor to kill a precise enemy that always remains the best against these enemy is far more interesting to earned for a player than a suit that will be completely useless forever in a few levels. Un-trivialising loot is important, and having specific properties for specific situations is definitely interesting. In 12 expansions, it will still be interesting to earn these items, as they are the best to hunt these kobolds...and they may have re-appeared in expansion 11 in some deep dungeon at level 75, but they are still there and the player is happy to find back his old gear for these kobolds as he earn better "overall" stuff or armors for other place...but all this is speculative.
BKP systems as in LDoN is a very good baby step in the right direction.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
have you ever actually proposed the question if their might possibly be a alternate ruleset server with no raiding on the official vanguard forums?
i know you complain about it alot here but why don't you actually ask a Dev about it and bring it to their attention? if so many people want a non raiding server like you say i am sure you will have no problem getting them to support your ideas there.
A dev have answered me: "Interesting" and ask me to elaborate. Which I did, and never see another reply.
I am sure some peoples could be found to support the idea, but you must remember, this idea appeal mostly to peoples who are less likely to go on forums...casuals are less likely to read the forum than me or folks in big guilds, guilds despite everything I may have as grudges with them, often read the official forums and transmit the information to the servers...such specific servers are appealing mostly to the peoples at this end of this spectrum, peoples reading the forums are usually belonging to a minority.
I could certainly have debated it more, talk it more...but well, I didn't. I give the idea openly, I explain it, then they are free to do what they want from it.
The Vanguard forums are cool, but I only dwell here on a regular basic...and I don't get very well with peoples from FoH or AL or many uberguilds as you prolly notice, thereby I feel less inclined to go there and read many harsh reactions (Ste is a cool and composed guy compared to some folks over there). I am sure you noticed, raiders tend to stick on the source where it might help them to raid, here, the MMORPG.com, is a more open community and...it attract a lot of PvPers, not exactly the same community! As a "grouping Care Bear", I feel better and more at home surrounded by theses PvPers than I would with raiders, as PvPers are not caring much about my issues, they are not seeing me as an opponent, someone they have to argue with...and many of them have the same issues about raiding!
Anyway, the idea was launched there, launched here, debated over and over. Anyone is free to spread it! Ideas are free to travel! I don't think that me, going there, debating it, would further the good-developpment of this idea.
Here, I am warning some peoples of the current state of the game, so some fellow players with similar taste might double check and don't underestimate this "20%" as something trivial, it isn't. 20% is a LOT. So I feel useful to some players...and peoples here are far more likely to like the idea than peoples on the Vanguard forums, should we speak about it...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
have you ever actually proposed the question if their might possibly be a alternate ruleset server with no raiding on the official vanguard forums?
i know you complain about it alot here but why don't you actually ask a Dev about it and bring it to their attention? if so many people want a non raiding server like you say i am sure you will have no problem getting them to support your ideas there.
A dev have answered me: "Interesting" and ask me to elaborate. Which I did, and never see another reply.
I am sure some peoples could be found to support the idea, but you must remember, this idea appeal mostly to peoples who are less likely to go on forums...casuals are less likely to read the forum than me or folks in big guilds, guilds despite everything I may have as grudges with them, often read the official forums and transmit the information to the servers...such specific servers are appealing mostly to the peoples at this end of this spectrum, peoples reading the forums are usually belonging to a minority.
very true, usually people that visit forums for any mmorpg are not casual players. but from reading all your posts i get the impression that you and all your RL friends (that you frequently mention are in agreement with you) are not casual gamers you just hate raiding?
isn't that the argument i always read from you and pantastic? that you just don't want forced raiding and it has nothing to do with being a casual gamer?
again i see your point about casuals not liking raids because they are time consuming, and they are the vocal minority on any forum.... but casuals will also not have enough time to group in most mmorpg's either.
i honestly believe people like you (hardcore or semi-hardcore gamers that don't want forced raiding) are indeed the minority, and if i am wrong then there should be plenty of people that would be willing to support your ideas...maybe not on the vanguard forums but on these forums or some other gaming forum.
i find it highly unlikely that there are all these hardcore or semi hardcore gamers out there that hate forced raiding but yet very few of them would be willing to support your ideas.
i mean, at the very least you could find some people that support your ideas and have them go to the vanguard forums and voice that opinion.
IMHO that would do a whole lot more for your cause then coming here and making 100's of posts complaining about it when it is alot less likely your opinion will be heard by anybody that can do anything about it.
i would even support you on the vanguard forums with your idea about a non raiding server and having a npc where you buy the raid gear with points you earn from doing small group tasks (similar to LDON).
i think its a decent idea, the only problem is not alot of casuals will be interested in a game like vanguard and i also think people like you who don't seem to be casual but refuse to play a game with forced raiding are a minority.
and that is why you probably wont get alot of support for a non raiding server, unless you can get more casual people interested in vanguard or get more people like you to go to the vanguard forums and support your idea.
Thread already exists on the official forum. Better to bump it than start a new one.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68937&highlight=raid+server
thanks for digging that up
i will read through it when the vanguard forum starts responding again LOL.