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When SOE removed the lightsaber visiblity tef for jedi, the game took a turn for the worse.
Dog098
Member Posts: 11
A few reasons:
1) before publish 9, you didn't know who was a jedi, because they could wear any clothing, and could blend into a crowd of people you could pretend to be a new player even because there was no combat levels. If they brought out their saber they could be attacked by anyone of the opposite faction. By having their superior strength they could fight back their opponeants.
2) Having the saber TEF kept the jedi in check, if they showed their saber they could be attacked by anyone overt or covert of the opposite faction, (episode 4 era, jedi were sparse, so since the saber tef made it seem like they were in hiding, it allowed alot of people to have jedi without it seeming like everyone had a jedi)
3) By being able to be attacked by anyone, that kept them in check to regular pvp'ers with one of the normal professions because if a jedi starting attacking a normal profession pvper, the jedi could be attacked by others, in turn keeping their power in check. SOE is wrong, Alpha classes can exist in mmo's.4)When soe removed the saber tef, jedi ran around free of harm showing their sabers off to everyone. They only had to fear bountyhunters.
5) Since soe did that, jedi overpowered normal professions wayy too much in pvp. Creating a sense of unbalance.
6) people cried nerf on the jedi because they couldn't beat them.
7) In the CU it seemed everyone had a jedi, and now having combat lvls, it took even more immersion away from the game. You could no longer pretend to be a new player, then pull out your lightsaber and surprise people. I remember in pre-cu people feared jedi, they didn't know who was one and who wasn't.
7) Since it seemed like everyone had a jedi now, the players without jedi cried again, and soe decided to just give jedi away in the NGE and balance them to other normal professions. Which is sad because jedi was able to co exist with normal professions pre-pub 9.
Just another failed attempt by SOE.
Comments
I said this a long time ago myself. If they had never changed one thing about Jedi and stuck with Raph's original vision, the game would have balanced itself out. Perma death, saber tef was a good idea if you were gonna have an alpha class. They changed it for no other reason but $$. The game was also viewed as to hardcore and the punishment to harsh for a SW game. I would be happy to see a game marketed as a hardcore MMO especially as SW game. It set the stage for the realistic danger that existed in the SW universe. But then again it's a game rated “T” for teens, not a dramatic novel.
Bascially what they should of done was:
Leave everything the way it was in publish 8 except for the perma death.
(skill trees excluded, i personally liked the later skill trees more than the ones pre-9)
The old system was great, it allowed many people to unlock jedi but it still seemed like there were no jedi around.
I think Saber TEF was a good system, but never liked the idea of permadeath from the get go. Too harsh. I had a pre CU jedi, and the skill loss system kept me in fear enough. I think that saber TEF and severe skill loss would have kept the Jedi party extravaganzas down, but would not eliminate them. They still existed with Saber TEF. (But much much less.)
I still remember jumping a jedi at the starport at Naboo the second he sparked his glowstick (I attacked with my BH) and having his entire guild gank me. Made my buddy with me at the time laugh his behind off. "That jedi and his saber were the cheese, guess who ended up being the mouse?" he said to me, laughing the whole time while I took a trip to the cloner in 3 seconds flat...
Altre Monserrat - MBH/MP
Aaden Monserrat - Elder Jedi
Starsider - <DFC> - Dark Force Clan
Being a Jedi from pub 6 I can tell you some scarey messed up stories, however I agree.
You want a hardcore game.. you play that version of Jedi.
If you died you paid for it, if you crit failed a saber while making it you lost it, if you ignited or SHOWED OFF 90% of the time you died and deserved it.
98% of the NGE Jedi could not handle decay as they have screamed let alone losing it all.. that is the difference between a NGE Jedi and pre-9 Jedi.
You had to watch your ass, pay attention and respect the class, fund the class, know when and what to do.
It was more special when no one knew you were a Jedi but some guildys and yourself...
Not someone in a paddy robe, waving a force pole arm around wanting to duel in the starport.....
"Force pole arm" --- Nice, been looking for that one in the books and movies.. can't find it....
http://www.advsoftech.com/~mmonroe/runiskrun.jpg <--- me getting ready to lose a freaking 800k box that took two weeks to do.
LOL
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Actually the original pre-9 system worked like a charm until soe messed it up in publish 9. (only thing i would remove was the perma death, everything else was perfect)
The old system allowed many many many people to have jedi, but at the same time it seemed like no one had a jedi.
you ask why?
Because: The lightsaber TEF kept the jedi from being too powerful over normal players, and it kept the jedi from walking around towns with their saber turned on. If they did turn their saber on they would be instantly attacked by many players, and this is good because they are supposed to be in hiding and not walking around cities showing on jedi moves.
And this is how the original trilogy was too, jedi were a rare sight, so having it the same way in the game made the jedi sort of mysterious, you didn't know who was a jedi and who wasn't. Jedi had to stay out side of towns if they wanted to fight show off their saber, or do it in a back alley where no npc/player was was watching. (I found roleplaying a jedi is way more fun when you actually have to be in hiding) Not having combat levels also added to the mysteriousness of a jedi. I remember my jedi, and how i was a super low lvl guy with no skills hardly, but i pretended to be a super powerful maximum lvl jedi to a full template rifleman. He didn't even attack.
Alpha classes can be in a MMO you just have to do it the right way. Unfortunatly SOE did it the wrong way.
Actually one would say we were forced into roleplaying perse. (not a horrid thing by the tef in ways)
However, I do think marketing affected this one. I think that we needed more people being able to get Jedi, that is why each system change to it, it got easier. To this day, seeing people complain about them when they were not them is kinda funny though.
They all thought the word "Alpha", meant God like- vs Glass cannon, Sure we could hit hard but we had 0 Defenses, Sure we could take out maybe two or three people at higher levels BUT if we died we lost weeks and or massive time and or even risk visibility. We were a huge credit sink and were always on the lookout or looking over our shoulder... Everything mattered, from timing to jump a Shuttle or ship, to traveling on Dath around NS's.
At this time the Devs did NOT talk to us, no input, no clue about visibility or how it worked, no clue on powers and or what they did or did not do, in fact some crap was broke I think and we did not know it...lol
But the one thing we had is that we did it first, we did it when it was new and hard, we also did it by the seat of our pants as there was no rules, no info, no help. (odd looking back now).
But hey, we had good times, good people with us, good screen shots (I have like a gig worth) -- also got to see a good game or what it could have been.
I liked the FRS myself, killer concept had some bugs, timers and decay were so screwed up that people chose to exploit it.. that made it look bad, but the core of it was a great idea.
I made it past rank 1 once for a day lol...hahah then decay took it out.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
The Jedi, a bunch of hokey pokey religious zealots as far as I am concerned…. But seriously to become a Jedi was a players own choice, the light saber was a symbol of a Jedi; it did not make you a Jedi.
The fact that you could not run around every place with your light saber out for everyone to see with out you suffering the consequences was part of strategic game play as far as I am concerned, you know in the time line that the game was set in, there were many Jedi, the difference is that you didn’t know who they were, the Jedi turned off their light Sabers and hid them or got rid of them because it was a symbol and indication of who you are.
I always thought that this was a great role playing ability of role playing a Jedi living during the Dark times, unfortunately all you ever really saw on the boards during that time were players crying about the fact that “I cant use my Light Saber when I want without being attacked” or this one which is famous “Why be a Jedi if I cant use my Light Saber what’s the point to being a Jedi then” or this one which was one of my fav and had over 15 pages “Sign a petition to get SOE to change the TEF system, its unfair for Jedi”.
Very few Jedi players enjoyed the way this system worked, as far as I am concerned the ones that did enjoy the way it worked are the ones who really enjoyed role-playing, and that is what I enjoy, unfortunately we are a minority, but for the most part the RPG in MMORPG should be removed in many cases, since there is less ability to role play in many MMOs now then there are in a straight out of the box RPG. Bring it on down now.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
The whiners didn't STFU, so they removed the skill loss also. They should have brought the TEF back.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Yep... But it's to late, the Jedi in place now are not really anything to consider a risk or factor. Yes it's to bad, but at the same time I am just glad that they nerfed them into Hell with the NGE... if they had given people the (PRE-NGE version) of Jedi then that would have sucked for alot of people.
At least we know what they got turned into. I know the difference, the good thing is they do not.
Call it what you want, but alot of us know Jedi was made into a marketing ploy for the NGE... it was one of the only ways to get people back , or to stay with SWG at that time. It worked for some as you saw people creep back to get thier free Jedi and ROBE!!!!! lol... sad and yet deserving in some respects.
This was discussed at the Summits, let me tell you it did not go well. lol
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Raph and the original crew knew exactly what would happen to any chance at a balanced, playable MMO if Jedi population got out of control, but they still wanted Jedi in the game as a powerful and mysterious goal for players to aspire to.
ASPIRE to ... not be handed on a silver platter, not to be guaranteed to anyone who tries.
Jedi were the Navy SEALS of SWG .... many would try, few would succeed, most would wash out and be thoroughly abused and mistreated in the process, the G.I. Janes of Galaxies. For those who suffered and endured, great rewards would be theirs, but risk would always remain.
Then the Marketing suits took over. "Oh, it's too HARD. We can't get kids to buy THAT. There have to be WAY more Jedi, 'cause, Jedi are Star Wars!"
Happy now, geniuses? Because you can't get kids to buy THIS, either ... and you threw away the game that adults were happy to pay for ... if you'd paid any attention to things like quality and consistency. Turns out the game design guys actually knew more about game design than the Marketing suits .... imagine that.
I don't know which publish it was, but the one where you could go to that little city on dant, and get your jedi there. That's when the game took the turn for the worse. It made it way too easy for people to get a Jedi. I think Jedi, period, ruined the game. It was cool to have a handful on the server, but once it became norm, then the game started to suck. My guild had a Jedi early on, right after the holocrons gave you a hint. But when we had 5+ in just my guild, it was ridiculous.
The saber tef maybe was bad for marketing, but it was alot better idea then letting 100's of jedi run around the streets with their saber on.
The saber tef allowed for there to be alot of jedi around, but just appear that their wern't many around at all.
I also loved having to hide, and duel in back alleys where no one was watching.
Holocrons were a problem when soe gave every single player on every server 1 for christmas as a "gift"
Anyone else remember that comment made by LEC producer Haden Blackman when he said that they could make Jedi like everyone else and balance them against all the other professions, but then it would be dumbed down and not really be like a Jedi you saw in the movies.They figured players would have less fun playing Jedi if it was dumbed down and not as powerful. They later dumbed Jedi down, and they were right, it's not as much fun to play.
(yes my sprint pocket pc smart phone rocks the casba) aaanyway...
you know, I agree with the OP 100 %...
jedi tef made the game perfect ( I would prefer cu controls with pre-cu tef rules) everything he said about keeping jedi in check, and limiting visibility as to restrain the cheesyness in a game with an overbearing jedi population is right on.
but was never possible...too many kiddies who suck bought the game to be jedi...and pre pub 9 was too hard for the carebears/kiddies.
although SOE could never redeem themselves in my eyes, they would do right by many many vets, by including a few servers with the original pre-cu combat system and game mechanics, and tef rules and call it a canon or star wars purist server.