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I hope death penalty be pretty harsh in vanguard
tenha
Member Posts: 8
First of all, i dont think it was all about grinding back the lost experiences that people worry about. The thing is these days, people have no respect for something called consequences. I got ridiculusly bored real fast in WoW rather in short period of time since i can get "extra" port from death. You need to port back to town? No problem, mad dash your character until death and pay measly few gold on repair.
When i played the classic EQ1 before kunark. That was the best time of MMOrpg in my life literally. I remember this accident, a ranger in a guild i was in, fell in lava inside sol a. At the end of that night, she lost about 1 full level of experience (about 4 days leveling time) due to the fact that she tried to get the corpse by herself and kept getting killed again and again. The next day she asked for help. Within half an hour, the entire guild was there. Guild enchanter(s) goes down in lava as fire elementals searching and chain drag the main corpse to safety. The guild made Search and Destroy Teams to go and retrieve her other bodies so that guild cleric can ressurect her for some exp back. The end of that night, She got her level back (from ressurections and groups).
Story like that above does not exist anymore in WoW mentality games these days. It is almost impossible to drag people arses to do even a simple guild meeting. People crap-talk, goes left and right do their own thing on raids (i dont want to go further on that), some random kids yelling "poop" "pee-pee" in random timing or whatever... There is no "community" as far as i know of there.
I remember the days when Paladin Epic Quest was really an epic. Takes painfully long time to finish, needed a lot of people to do. The reward gives sense of acomplishment and debts towards others. Those are some of the amazing glue that binds EQ1 classic players together. In WoW, pratically every moron have the capacity to wield glowing magical sword.
I have played EVE online, EQ2, FFXI, Guild Wars, DAoC, Anarchy Online, Asheron Call, Planetside, World War 2 Online, WoW, Ragnarok Online, Second Life, Sims Online, 4th Coming, (and the list goes on with some muds, too much to mention). And not until this day, i ever encountered the kind of community anywhere else beside EQ1 classic.
If you only want to solo, really.. Theres plenty other single player games out there.. Oh of course, you cant brag in about anything.. to anyone.. Nobody really cares. The thing is, consequences are necessary in my opinion. We are playing MMOrpg (MASSIVE *multi* players) game. Grinding will give time to get to know other people. Group play, deaths, penalties, travelling time are among the most important "Glue" in MMO games. Time spent on play will build links, loyalty, friendship, and who knows.. (i met my ex-fiancee in MMOrpg).
People who played EQ1 classic pre-kunark would be able to recount memories like mine above. At the end of it all, it will bind people together. Guess who will be among the first people to respond next time someone needed help? That ranger would.
Comments
I dont think we need a reminder that wow has the worst community ever.
Thats beacuse those who play wow havent played a mmo before, they are usally ex counter-strike players or something :P
I really hope there isnt exp loss, but indeed there should be a penelty, and quite hars but no exp loss, thats just lame
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
And yet WoW is a vastly more popular game with a huge userbase that dwarfs that of EQ at it's most popular.
That doesn't make your viewpoint invalid. Certainly I can see why you would find a game that heavily punishes players for failure to be more difficult. In addition to the penalties that WoW and single player games have: failing and not getting a reward as well as travel time back to the challenge if the player wishes to attempt it, Vanguard may have corpse retreival (the loss of gear until a corpse is reclaimed) and xp loss/debt that can take an hour or more of grinding to work off.
There is a lot of competition for player's entertainment time, so a lot of people do not want corpse runs because they are such a huge timesink, and in other games they often led to additional deaths that occurred when attempting to reach a corpse. Additionally, people don't like xp loss/debt because it is a timesink that keeps them from progressing as quickly. For players who do not have hours upon hours to commit to playing a game, having the game issue timesink penalties in addition to failing the content and not being rewarded is simply not acceptable.
Additionally, many players dislike it because it makes players more cautious. Instead of risking death and taking on heroic challenges that even smart players might not be able to beat 100% of the time, in games where death has a heavy penalty, smart players reduce their risk so that it is extremely marginal (like only a 5% chance of death) by using online sites to learn about encounters and to build groups that know exactly how to take on the encounter and are high enough level to take it on with little risk. This leads to extremely formulaic gameplay that isn't exciting or risky.
Vanguard will definitely be a game for you though. They are the most hardcore game of this generation of MMOs. This limits their appeal to the larger audience that WoW introduced to the MMO genre, but it definitely appeals to hardcore gamers that like this.
The point of my post was to point out to you that people who do not like death penalties do not want "easy" content. They want challenging content that they don't have to remove the risk from, and they want to spend their entertainment time on games that do not make them gamble their entertainment time each time they play.
this is one thing i really hope VG accomplishes is bringing back a sense of community like EQ has or had back when it first came out.
While I respect your desire for harsh death penalities - and even fully understand your reasons - I am still against them.
For me a MMO is a hobby, I do it in spare time to meet friends and go to an adventure with them. I have played those old Pen and Paper RPGs like D&D and the German "Schwarze Auge" (published in US as "Arcadia or somesuch), and I play MMOs to have stories told. I want a story, an adventure like those adventures in Fanatsy novels. I dont care about grinding or levelling, I care about stories. Because that is so, dying in it self already IS the penality. It makes me feel so sad and angry that I failed, I have no need to have further penalty, because nothing could depress me more than failing my quest and dying.
I understand that grinders and soloist fanatics can have negative effects on a MMO, I fully agree with that, but I dont think death penalities are the right way to solve that. People should be persuaded to group and play by positive rewards for playing in a good way, not by penalities for playing the "wrong way". I think the history of crime in human civilization proves that penalities dont prevent anything.
I agree with dink about that timesink thing. Companies want timesinks, because they want people to keep subscribed to a game as long as possible, so they stretch the timesink as far as they think they can without loosing the patience of the players.
The point is this: a great number of ppl playing MMOs are pupils or students, who have lots of time. I started playing computer games when I was at school, but now that I am a working person with RL duties any adult has, my time is limited. I have died in MMOs regularly not so much because I was so foolish, but because ppl of my group did some fatal error: a mage running ahead, a healer forgetting to heal and tank who attracts more/greater mobs than we could take. It happens, and it happens regularly and can easily wipe the group multiple times in a game. If I get debt AND corpse run, its just a bit too much I get from other people decisions. Thats just an environment of pressure and anger I won't like to experience.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Crafting, housing... there is something for everybody.
eqnext.wikia.com
Ther should be some sort of penalty but a harsh one is not a good thing. I played a cleric in EQ and I dont know how meny times my group has wiped becouse some ass dint want to die and ran. I have had casters gate out when it looked bad but if they had stayed we could have won, O and did I mention I am a cleric that can rezz peaple but that did chang any thing. Peaple would still run casters would gate and the others would run around makeing my job hard becouse they run out of rang and then cry about me letting them die.
I can only shuter to think what it would be like if the penalty was more than EQs penalty. I mean with the gaming community as it is now thes guys will run at the first time it looks bad and that will kill every 1 in ther party if they dont see him run out on them like the healer who is in back most of the time yes I have seen clerics gate out on me to leaving me holding the bag and I die on all of them for my group but that me most peaple now day would not do that. sorry for rambling on and gramer I know it sucks
Lose everything.
Start a new character.
As to the comments made by the opener. While I do see some of the points you are trying to make. My feelings on the matter are very different then your own. So i'll just leave it at that.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
As to the comments made by the opener. While I do see some of the points you are trying to make. My feelings on the matter are very different then your own. So i'll just leave it at that.
Well, thank you, I'm honored.
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
/sigh
seen this about 10 times now.
Time for a new joke I think.
There is a huge difference between wanting a game to have a meaningful death penalty and being a 'masochist'.
EZ mode for the lazy gamer isnt a good thing.
/sigh
seen this about 10 times now.
Time for a new joke I think.
There is a huge difference between wanting a game to have a meaningful death penalty and being a 'masochist'.
EZ mode for the lazy gamer isnt a good thing.
I think it is wrong to call people who don't like harsh penalties in games lazy.
It really speaks to the difference between mainstream gamers and hardcore gamers. I'm somewhere in the middle because I'm a pretty hardcore PvP player (though not the ganking type of PvP - I like Guild Wars and WoW BGs where the sides are even). Anyway, back to the point. . .
Hardcore gamers view levels and character progress as ACHIEVEMENT. Mainstream gamers view progress in levels as a way to gain more abilities and increase ENTERTAINMENT.
This is a HUGE difference in playstyles. Hardcore gamers are willing to put up with harsh penalties because it gives their time investment more merit. They ACHEIVED higher levels and sweet loot through hard work. Mainstream gamers view harsh death penalties as obstacles to having fun. Their goal, ENTERTAINMENT, is interrupted by harsh death penalties.
So how do you appeal to both types of gamers? Personally, I think that you make levels less of an acheivement and instead start desiging end-game content that is hard enough that getting items, etc. from them is a sign of acheivement. WoW's success is partly due to this. The mistake they made was in gating the endgame content by putting the best stuff in 40-man raids. They are fixing this mistake in their expansion though.
/sigh
seen this about 10 times now.
Time for a new joke I think.
There is a huge difference between wanting a game to have a meaningful death penalty and being a 'masochist'.
EZ mode for the lazy gamer isnt a good thing.
/sigh
seems like you do not comprehend sarcasm.
Time for you to think.
There is a huge difference between wanting a game to have a meaningful death penalty and being a 'masochist".
There is also such a thing as having to huge of a death penalty, which is my point exactly.
I wait to see how Vanguard will ultimately balance this issue.
If you meant this sarcastically, probably best to quantify it as such, or people will obviously misinterprete you in a medium that is extremely literal. Emotes etc were created for the internet for this very reason.
If, though as you state, you are making the point of VG maybe having a too harsh death penalty, then you maybe want to drop the 'sarcasm' because taken literally the post I was responding to is literally how you feel..?
So, what is it?
You are against appreciable death penalties (this would make it 'literal')
or
You are for appreciable death penalties (this would make it 'sarcastic')
Care to define what is 'balanced' for you? Sorry to ask for for definitions and stuff, but your post seems really contradictory.
btw, mockingly emulating as a form of making a point is really weak and best left to small children and monkeys, but I guess you know that and all.
erm, well, no.
You probably need to reread my post, so I'll leave you some time to do that.
btw, I never said I was against sarcasm eh? I said emulation was for small children and monkeys. I simply pointed out thats what they do to drive home a point and demean the other person without having to have anything substantial to rely on. It's a classic tactic.
It seems you missed just about every point I was making, but thats cool. I'm sure you are very clever in real life.
That's sarcasm by the way.
GAMES WITH REAL DEATH PENALTIES (at least 10%+ of total exp lost upon death):
You can "hunt" and be "hunted" by other players, creating feuds, instant return of the RP in RPG
guilds and clans actually have a natural purpose, the game doesnt have to create mock battles between guilds for "guild points" "national points" etc that do nothing
high level murderous players will actually become known, yes, an rpg where you actually remember somebodies name or have the ability to become the well known person, rather than another zombie collecting hats and gloves, anyone who played early 2d pvp mmos can remember how much this adds to the game
there is infinite "end game" because every time you die even at a high level you must regain that level or eventually decline to being a low level. The option of standing around flexing at level 2 elf girls is gone, you actually must maintain your level.
GAMES WITH NO DEATH PENALTY:
play a tougher quest in guild wars, or pay somebody to do the "droks run" chances are half the people in your party will die multiple times, run back to the party good as new as soon as you hit the next town, try again 50 times. POINTLESS, it doesnt even take a human brain to complete quests on GW, you could literally just throw your mouse at the wall for an hour and eventually succeed
guild/clan battles in no-penalty for death games are COMPLETELY POINTLESS, even if you wipe out the entire enemy clan youve not made a dent, neither side ever makes any progress, its like watching a boxing match where youre allowed to wear motorcycle helmets and roman chest plates and whoever gets bored first loses
people commiting suicide to teleport knowing death is a pointless feature
zero reason for anyone you dont already know outside of the game to aknowledge you exist, zero reason for player to player orginzation outside of "hey u have feather 4 quest?" "yeh" "k cool go" "k thnx 4 quest bye" "bye", because whats the point of being an organized group of travellers if you can casually die to travel instead?
people standing around telling chuck norris jokes without having their heads cut off
so the real question is, if youre not going to put in meaningful death penalties, why bother putting in death? why not just make everyone immortal?