Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
We all played and we all lost
Distopia
Member EpicPosts: 21,183
We all played and we all lost . I guess I understand why some may still be angry and/or bitter . But what I do not understand, Is how some act as though SOE is the NSA.I just dont see how one conjures such an Idea . They have no control over this or any site . Yet this site wouldn't be here , If they didn't receive advertising dollars.
These accusations of late, toward this site are simply rude . Whether MMORPG split the forums due to flaming or advertising dollars ,Neither reason is wrong .I think it's fair to say they gave a place to have the discussion's so many of you wanted to have . And for a long time left you this forum to do so . But you can't expect a site to let you flame forever , And thats exactly what was going on . Flaming a company and its product is no different than flaming a user , Flames are flames regardless .
ON top of that anyone can see . This constant argument between players and haters was not going to see an end for a long , long time . This is a gaming site after all , Arguing and bickering dosen't really make for a warm welcome . By splitting the forums and strctly enforcing their rules , It does make for a far more civil enviroment .
I'll use an event that happened this weekend as an example . poster a ) posts in the current forum talking about things he doesn't like in the current game . Poster
Simply tells him , They have made some improvements to certain parts of his dislikes .Poster a ) Then tells (B) he is wrong . Poster B then again explains it a bit further . Poster A) Then lets B know he has been reported for trolling and flamebaiting . It would seem poster A gets a warning from the mods , Most likely due to reporting with no offence really done by B . So poster A assumes this staff is paid off SOE agents , And decides to leave them a not so pleasant goodbye letter.
Maybe I am wrong , But shouldn't most here be grateful that MMORPG let you voice your opinion ? And even made you a forum of your own ? IMO the above is no different than staying over night at a friends house , Eating all their food running up their phone bill . Then calling them the next day, Letting them know how much their place sucked .
/rant off
These accusations of late, toward this site are simply rude . Whether MMORPG split the forums due to flaming or advertising dollars ,Neither reason is wrong .I think it's fair to say they gave a place to have the discussion's so many of you wanted to have . And for a long time left you this forum to do so . But you can't expect a site to let you flame forever , And thats exactly what was going on . Flaming a company and its product is no different than flaming a user , Flames are flames regardless .
ON top of that anyone can see . This constant argument between players and haters was not going to see an end for a long , long time . This is a gaming site after all , Arguing and bickering dosen't really make for a warm welcome . By splitting the forums and strctly enforcing their rules , It does make for a far more civil enviroment .
I'll use an event that happened this weekend as an example . poster a ) posts in the current forum talking about things he doesn't like in the current game . Poster
Simply tells him , They have made some improvements to certain parts of his dislikes .Poster a ) Then tells (B) he is wrong . Poster B then again explains it a bit further . Poster A) Then lets B know he has been reported for trolling and flamebaiting . It would seem poster A gets a warning from the mods , Most likely due to reporting with no offence really done by B . So poster A assumes this staff is paid off SOE agents , And decides to leave them a not so pleasant goodbye letter.Maybe I am wrong , But shouldn't most here be grateful that MMORPG let you voice your opinion ? And even made you a forum of your own ? IMO the above is no different than staying over night at a friends house , Eating all their food running up their phone bill . Then calling them the next day, Letting them know how much their place sucked .
/rant off
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
I disagree with you, this site makes money from companies that advertise to us which in turn makes us the customer. The players that support SWG and SOE are happy with this move 100%, however the rest of us aren't in total agreement as to the motives behind the splitting of the forums. That being the problem, not so much what was done but why? You obviously agree with the given explanation, I just don't believe that that's the full picture.
But I don't mind us being in disagreement, as we're both entitled to our opinions and entitled to express them (in the apropriate forum). That is what having a forum is all about yes? I disagree with the belief that there was "excessive flaming" in the previous general discussion forum, but it seems many do not.
BTW I think SWG is a very poor excuse for an MMORPG.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
I like to argue for argument's sake, so I'm going to have a stab at this.
First, I will concede a few points. 1) MMORPG.COM owns this site and it can do whatever it likes with it, including banning all anti-SOE posts all together and IP banning anyone who likes chocolate. It's a private site, and is not owned and operated by the U.S. government, it is not a "public" space, as it is virtual property owned and operated by a private firm. Freedom of speach doesn't apply here. 2) I don't believe SOE controls these forums either directly, or through advertising dollars. I've seen posts made by MMORPG.COM staff that decry SOE and the NGE.
Now, I will move into my argument.
My belief and opinion is that this split was done to appease a vocal group of people that support SOE and the current SW:G. I say appease them, not side with them. I believe that certain people constantly spammed the moderators complaining about posts in the General forum being "off-topic" or flaming with or without good reason. The General forum was "talk about anything". So, IMO rumors, inuendo, and opinions could be freely expressed as long as they fit within the terms of use for this site. Granted, flaming and trolling occurred, but it occurred on both sides of the argument, this cannot be denied.
Since naming names is faux pas, I will simply ask who the most famous forum trolls and flamers are on the SW:G boards at MMORPG.COM? Who typically post plows, flame baits, or trolls into threads that were seemingly civil and turn them into a giant flame war? Some on both sides, but a few on the SOE side come to mind. And no, I'm not talking about Obraik. This forum here is new, just look at the posts in it and see when they start devolving into free for all? It's not when a disgruntled vet voices his agreement with an OP. It's when somebody from SWG: Current strolls in and starts sniping. That can't happen in their forum, because the RoC is "STRICTLY" enforced over there. It is very difficult to present a dissenting view there.
SWG: Current is a "safe-haven" for NGE fans. They cannot be challenged, they cannot be called out. SWG: Veterens is a free-for-all flame fest (not on the order of the general forums, granted) in comparison. Why the double standard? Because the anti-NGE folks seem pretty comfortable with their POV. My guess is they typically report less in order to silence the other side.
Another point is, there were already rules against flaming and trolling. Now they need to be enforced in 2 different forums instead of one.
I believe that so many anti-NGE people are still "involved" with the issue is 3-fold. They are SWG fans, and they wish the game was still what they put so much time into. They are SW fans and they are outraged that their loyalty to an IP has been rewarded in this way. They are MMO gamers who don't have a current game to play that has all of the features that pre-CU had, and only pre-CU had, so they have nothign better to do but to pine away for it. I personally am in the last category, and as you can see from my post count I'm not rabid about any particular point of view except that I liked pre-CU.
To your point about being grateful that MMORPG let's us voice our opinion, I have to agree. As I conceded in the first paragraph, this isn't a free-speech forum. But, the very idea of a forum as a place to meet and share ideas and opinions gives every user of any forum the expectation (rightly or wrongly) that they will not be fettered in doing so, if done so civily. Instead of punishing those that couldn't keep a civil tongue, everyone here lost out. That is a fault of the moderators, because the community cannot police itself. They don't have moderating privileges, and they certainly aren't (by and large) neutral arbitrators.
A solution, which won't be implemented in hindsight, would have been to leave the General Forums for "talk about whatever" free-for-all discussion with RoC enforced as it should have been, and a new forum called "Gameplay Discussion" where the current gameplay could be discussed. That way the community isn't being split, it's being added to. NGE fans get a place to ask questions and discuss things safely, and EVERYONE gets the General forums to do anything else (SWG related and within the RoC).
So, I guess what I'm saying is, I agree with you in general, but I refuse to be happy about the decision made here. I think it's one more "easy way out" solution to a problem. It's those "easy way out" solutions that end up being more work in the long run (and more detrimental), at least in my experience.
Temploiter
WDMKR | Incarnate
I agree , With your last sentence 110% . But I don't agree with any explanation as you put it . But rather feel either scenario , Be it for SOE advertising dollars or excessive flaming . They made a positive choice and cleaned this place up a bit .I also do feel there was enough flaming going on, to warrant moderation . But as you said there is nothing wrong with disagreement , If we all thought alike the world would be a pretty boring place :P .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
IT IS THE ASA!!!!!
(Sorry for the lame joke)
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
It very well may be an easy way out , But at the same time it makes a little sense to me . I don't think we need be herded like children and sent to our respective corner . But I do feel a split such as this places emphasis on just how screwed up this whole fiasco of game has been handled.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Phew...good. I thought I was just being naive again. What IS the ASA?
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
The segregation of the General forum achieves only one result: making objective information harder to find. The fact that negative, but absolutely current posts have been moved to Vet already simply reinforces this perception.
It may be entirely perception ... the motives may have been pure and selfless. But that's not the perception. It stinks of kowtowing to corporate unhappiness at the spread of negative information (albeit completely accurate) about their product.
Really Bad Idea from the start ... rollback to one General forum, the continued compartmentalization of info at MMORPG makes them look like a stooge and makes me less likely than ever to consider anything they publish as objective information worth considering seriously.
They should just change the other forum to read...
"This forum is for people who seem to like the nge and are playing it to glowingly discuss current gameplay."
Of course, I think anyone with half a brain would notice the Vets forum IS listed first and had 4 times the posts.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I am against the policy of having an open forum for game discussions and then later redacting that position because "it became to difficult to moderate". What has occurred is censoring the debate. In essence they have silenced the majority and given a voice to the minority. Now you may agree that the minority have right to be heard in an open discussion in a general forum but to not allow the other side fair counter balancing responses to a minority opinion is censorship and is allowing one side of the debate to dictate the discussion and outcome of the forum.
So now when you go to discuss the current game as you see it in a comparitive manner to the old game what are the odds of you now getting censored in the near future for even mentioning the previous version? It grows greater every moment. Those of us who oppose censors do not stay long. We are either banned or move along to greener pastures. What will occur is the same that occurs with all public game forums under this policy of moderating. All that will be left is unfair, biast discussion. Much like Fox News Brit Hume show that has a follow up panel of Staunch Republican, Female Republican, Moderate Republican, Fanatical Republican and a host. Why even debate? (Please note this is not an opinion but based on party memberships of the hosts and I do not wish to debate the merits of Fox News, its show or its guests.)
The point is the pre-cu forum is active and that is good. So far the censors have been pretty fair on topics. I have not YET seen anything that really didn't violate a rule or post "although" I disagree with being told you cannot discuss a warning you where issued by posting it. That I think is a rubbish rule but a rule no less I "agreed" to.
So why post here at all? You can debate among supporters the greatness of the cu game. Ok... However, I really want to debate the NGE people who I differ in opinions...
Put it this way. My state is having a debate tonight for Governor. The republican can say whatever he wants in his room. The democrat can say whatever she wants in her room. If either wants to counter a point they must enter the others room and watch how they respond or they will be forced to leave the room and have there points deleted. There you have it. It is idiotic to moderate a discussion that way. (For you all who said I shouldn't imply the staff is idiots but there ideas.) Why not just moderate the discussion and if your staff cannot moderate the discussion get a new staff. It is very simple. Which is why I think its unnecessary and a dim-witted idea. We can now police 2 forums is not a solution to solving an issue of moderating a debate. All it does it create more moderation work and censorship which will ruin your sites credibility with the mmo public, which is all this site has going for it imo.
P.S. WHat is the job description for moderator? Willing to work for free or little to no money, must possess skills at reading, typing, using a computer and explorering the internet? I mean is there really a shortage of "moderators" willing to do the task of deleting posts that violate the RoC?
There are a couple people who want nothing but to discuss the game they are playing (for some crazy reason) without wearing flame retardent suits.
They have a place. Ignore it and Rage on here.
So you really think that this lets $OE win? There's still open discussion about how they're all feces-throwing chimps who screwed us all. We're still able to rage, and criticise, and debate. AND we have the top-dog spot on the forums.
It's much better than IGN's site that doesn't allow any criticism whatsoever. Or the suckboards who deletes even positive posts they don't understand.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Unbunch the panties. Have they edited any posts here other than the torturing Smed post?
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Phew...good. I thought I was just being naive again. What IS the ASA?
But really? What is the ASA?
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
The A.S.A is: American Society of Anesthesiologists or American Statistical Association or American Sailing Association or American Sociological Association. But I believe it is the Advertising Standards Authority.
Lothor Crestingwalker
Corbantis
SWG Vet
Subbed 7-19-03
Cancelled various times
I hate the NGE