Originally posted by Gorukha Well firstly, as I have been saying for a while. The word from people i know in BETA is not good. The game is a gigantic grind, combat is slow and boring, not a very interesting game overall. It won't be BIG like WoW, but i'm sure it will attract a 100k or 200k subscruibers in the beginning, with the premise of sea battles and all that crap. Doubt it will hold people for long.
The game is still at least 6 months from release and they are just now putting in racial animations and a few other fundamental pieces so not even the beta testers no what this game will look like in a month or 2. Your guess is as good as mine. No beta is good at this stage. WoW wasn't, EQ2 wasnt none are. The only thing that matters is what the game is like on release. We'll start catching wind of those rumors around March.
Originally posted by nthnaoun I voted no. Most of the things on that list, aside from fighting Pirates on the high sea, has been done all in one game before. That game was very successful, but it could also be played on most sytems at release (EQ). That idea has been done to death now, and people would either like to see a change or just stick with what they got. Why spend many months maxing out a new toon in a new game that is just like your old game? Another reason why this game won't be the next big one, is because it is making the same mistake as EQ2 with the graphics. Instead of learning from WoW in how to make a game appealing, but also playable on most systems, they are going for the high detailed and high poly count characters and such, like EQ2 did. This means that even if everyone did want to play this game, they couldn't, because they wouldn't have the system to run it. I consider a game the next big one, when it can sustain about 300-500k subscribers.
First off Caravans and Diplomacy are new. Secondly, Most graphics are rough placeholder graphics that will be phased out over the next few months. They have learned from WoW unfortunately. Hopefully the game will hold a bit more of a challenge but from the way things are going i'm going to start calling it the first WoW clone. It will take a nice machine to play it on high graphics. But the high end of today will be the low end next year. If you plan on gaming with a single core 256mb vid card just give up or stick to the older games. Why design for the past?
Originally posted by Anofalye IF Vanguard continue the way it is heading now, I suppose it will have about 50k subscribers, maybe as much as double that. IF Vanguard get non-raiding servers, these servers will draw about half a million subscribtions on their own, if done at the release of the game, remove 20% per month post-release. Might even be twice that amount if the marketing is well done and the emphasis on these servers is evident. And explaining the why and all...woah, that would be massive and long, but let's just say that Vanguard is very nice and well done, however peoples are extremely tired of enforced gameplays on them, especially the raiding one. Peoples who love raiding are already addicted to an existing MMO, they won't move over to Vanguard, after all their hardwork and investment? Forget it, they are sticking to the MMOs they are playing, so that 50k will mostly consist of non-raiders who just don't know yet that they are not raiders (and peoples who pretend to be raiders and that aren't raiding atm are just poseurs, you can't count on these).
It's funny how people just pull numbers out of their asses. You have no idea what you're talking about.lol
Vanguard has proven developers. They have developed most of the standards on which WoW was built. They are directly responsible for the first big growth spurt in the genre. Their first game EQ is still alive with 200k subscribers after 8 years although it has been changed over time. It would probably have more subscribers if they didn't change so much as add new content. Let's not forget that the change was not done by the core developing Vanguard but by SOE. SOE will be involved with Vanguard and i'm sure after the first few years history will repeat itself and McQuaid will sell out to SOE, take his money and develop a new game. This is what developers do.
Vanguard will be immersive. It wont be unique so much as offer a few unique mechanics. It will be a cross between EQ and WoW. This could be good or it could be bad. I'm willing to bet it breaks the 1 million subscriber mark. I'll even give 5:1 odds.
I think some folks don't like the sounds of it because VG doesn't sound as simplistic as the WoW experience, i.e. solo half asleep to 60 in 2 weeks, then press the buttons when the raid mod tells you to in the "endgame".
Personally I think it looks good precisely because it is frowned on by the WoW section, maybe we're getting another MMO back in the UO and EQ vein with challenge (or grind as it's called apparently) rather than dumbed down for the kindergarten section.
In my opinion, the one's who say that people aren't going to play this game because it's the same old thing are dead wrong.
Sure, a lot of people started their MMO careers with EQ or UO so it might look similar. But I started mine with WoW, and so did thousands of other players.
For many people this will not be the same old thing.
Also, Sigil has stated that they will have at least one PvP server at launch. Ergo, Sigil is not disreguarding PvP.
However, as psyched as I am for the game I'm not going to deny or confirm anything that hasn't been said by the devs. Afterall, nobody has played the finished title yet, so I'm going to save my judgements until release.
I voted yes also. Vanguard seems packed with the features that I want and I trust in Brad Mcquaid's vision for the game. He made EQ which took mmorpgs from being kind of popular( thanks to Ultima Online) and made them into a phenomenon. Its true that WoW brought in many more new people, but EQ reigned supreme for quite a while and definitely paved the way for success.
I am also very big into exploration, which Vanguard offers a huge beautiful world for doing just that. Of course the feel and look of the world was envision by the late and great artist Keith Parkinson who is one of my most favorite artists ever. So naturally this is a HUGE draw for me to be able to explore and see many of the sights that he designed.
Originally posted by Gorukha I think people misunderstand what Brad McQuaid means by hard. This isn't going to be a puzzle solving game for geniuses. The guy just means you are going to have to WORK hard and earn everything through painstaking labor, like EQ. Of course if it makes you feel better to think that you are smarter than the average woW player by playing Vanguard all the power to yah . We know how high IQ you need for mmorpgs= 1+.
Actually if you listen to the inital hardcore fans it seems the game is changing. Alot of people are saying by the end it won't be much harder than WoW.
Difficulty in an MMO is something of a canard. If you are giving people the freedom to choose which content they will explore they will always choose the stuff that best suits their own tastes for risk and reward. Make the game harder and they will drop down a bit on the content, make it easier and they will move up to the more challenging content and even engage content the developers intended for much higher levels or larger groups.
Back to the original question, I think Vanguard will have its audience, and it will have its detractors. People who play Vanguard will continue to think of WoW as a beginner/kiddies MMO and people who play WoW will continue to think Vanguard is a pointless grind.
WoW, EQ2 and Vanguard may all be Fantasy genre item based games but that doesnt mean they cant have game play that appeals to different people. Vanguard will be more massive, more immersive and more epic, however it will pay for that by sacrificing some of your ability to log in an hook up with old friends quickly and a in your ability to accomplish things quickly. People who are more social, have more time and like the immersion and massiveness will like this, others will hate it and look for a lighter game like WoW or go for something down the middle like EQ2.
Originally posted by Gorukha I think people misunderstand what Brad McQuaid means by hard. This isn't going to be a puzzle solving game for geniuses. The guy just means you are going to have to WORK hard and earn everything through painstaking labor, like EQ. Of course if it makes you feel better to think that you are smarter than the average woW player by playing Vanguard all the power to yah . We know how high IQ you need for mmorpgs= 1+.
Gosh- I think your wrong about the IQ level of the people that play MMO's. I play a older game that is extremely hard and it takes you a good 4-5 years of daily playing to max your toon. The sub numbers are low- but the people that play that game are the most brilliant and informative folks you'll ever see playing a MMO. I'm guessing that the harder a game is- the more it weeds out the ADHD kids, lazy and unintelligent people
Maybe a better word than IQ would be "higher attention span" or "durable" or "focused" in what kind of people I think will be drawn to Vanguard.
I don't mind the haters, bashers and flamers. I'm sorry to drag (pre-cu) SWG in to this but... even since I left it I was looking and waiting for a new game to fill that empty space. Game that is... More then game. Where community is connected, where crafters are needed, where world is massive and almost player run.
And atm my only hope is Vanguard.
Every time I read your post, I die a little inside...
No it will not be the next big thing because Sigil has already announced who their target audience is mainly:
1. Hardcore players
2. group oriented players.
They have held press releases on it. They have noted that they wanted to market to a particular type of gamer instead of making the game in a way that apeals to the masses.
I think they might be successful in their goals but will not be the next big thing
Someone mentioned it will have a single PvP server... so what- we all saw what happened to Ultima Online when they drew a line in the sand and said PvP'ers over here and Non-Pvp'ers over there... the gameplay just broke down. Felucca became a meaningless gankfest; "We pwned j0o n0oby!"... and Trammel became pixel crack candy land; "Look at all my precious virtual stuff!"
I think the people who know better are going to stay away from games that claim they are "open-PvP" on account of one server out of many. People know that it just segregates the community; and that doesn't pan out well.
I think PKs, Antis, and Carebears should play together- and I know it can work within reason- just that no one has gotten the formula right yet; and I'm not going to support any MMO that isn't going to bother improving on this.
I also urge anyone who feels there is a void in the genre, a lack of progress, stagnation, or if you're just plain unhappy with it- to just stop. Stop sending your money to these two-bit punks caught up in the EQ/WoW clone war. Find other kinds of games to play; find other hobbies- or go support one of your local 24 hour diner's and maybe meet some nice people there over some coffee.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Originally posted by franksalbe No it will not be the next big thing because Sigil has already announced who their target audience is mainly: 1. Hardcore players 2. group oriented players. They have held press releases on it. They have noted that they wanted to market to a particular type of gamer instead of making the game in a way that apeals to the masses. I think they might be successful in their goals but will not be the next big thing Bioware son... just wait for Bioware.
That was the original plan. Now it's middle of the road. Hardcore gamers will find their challenges and casual gamers can make progress although not quite as fast as WoW. Let's face it there has to be a balance. WoW is just way to simple. About the group oriented aspect. Let me remind you that Brad is the one responsible for the EQ druid. Quad kiting anyone?
As much as I would like to see Vanguard be the game that takes MMO's to the next level of innovation, I do not see that happening. Most of what I have seen, heard, and read about the game is pushing it into the same mold as much of what we already have available to us in the market.
Originally posted by OldGoron Originally posted by Cik_Asalin 1.detailed world of swords and sorcery, of dragons and knights
Swords and sorcery is not unique to mmorpgs....not an interesting draw but a standard expectation...holds no longevity of game-play fun.
2.chests overflowing with treasure
Treasure and loot is not unique to mmorpgs....not an interesting draw but a standard expectation...holds no longevity of game-play fun.
3.own buildings and vehicles
Building management or ownership as well as travelling horses are not unique to mmorpgs....not an interesting draw but a standard expectation...holds no longevity of game-play fun.
4.Players will experience settings ranging from enjoying a drink in a tavern to walking through the streets of a bustling city
Tavern talk and settings or villages and cities are not unique to mmorpgs....not an interesting draw but a standard expectation...holds no longevity of game-play fun.
5.They will travel with trade caravans across deserts and they will fight pirates on the high seas
Travel is not unique to mmorpgs nor is combat against computer controlled mobs and creatures....not an interesting draw but a standard expectation...holds no longevity of game-play fun.
6.They will ascend the highest peak in the land and also explore the depths of eerie dungeons...
Adventuring on land, sea, or in dungeons is not unique to mmorpgs....not an interesting draw but a standard expectation...holds no longevity of game-play fun.
Do you have even the SLIGHTEST idea what the caravans are? I'm really REALLY guessing you don't have a single clue so why even bother posting this? Travel is not unique? Man I get so pissed from ppl spouting shit like this.
I voted yes cuz I have full faith that Brad will make another kickass game like Everquest was and what I've seen so far I'm liking the game more and more for each day that passes. I have MORE than the slightest idea. Stop trying to over-sell an over-hyped travel system as something that will be an audience draw.
Originally posted by franksalbe No it will not be the next big thing because Sigil has already announced who their target audience is mainly: 1. Hardcore players
can you please point out where sigil have announced that their target audience are hardcore players?
you can't? thats because it never happened. Sigil have stated countless times that vanguards target audience will be the 'core gamer', this refers to the player whos online about 2-4 hours a night on weekdays, and a bit more on weekends, the average player.
Now i'm not saying vanguard is going to be the next big thing, and personally i don't think it will be, but saying stuff like that which is completely untrue is pointless.
Originally posted by qwepoi Originally posted by franksalbe No it will not be the next big thing because Sigil has already announced who their target audience is mainly:1. Hardcore players
can you please point out where sigil have announced that their target audience are hardcore players?
you can't? thats because it never happened. Sigil have stated countless times that vanguards target audience will be the 'core gamer', this refers to the player whos online about 2-4 hours a night on weekdays, and a bit more on weekends, the average player.
Now i'm not saying vanguard is going to be the next big thing, and personally i don't think it will be, but saying stuff like that which is completely untrue is pointless.
I wouldnt really say hard-core, but I do recall Brad mentioning to target a subscribership base of only 250-500K, which is 5% to less than 5% of the audience in the most successful mmorpg today. So an admission of, from my take, on the lack of mmo/mmorpg advancement and I've heard rumblings of how inherintly like EQ and EQ2 it is as a PvE centric game which many have already played.
Comments
The game is still at least 6 months from release and they are just now putting in racial animations and a few other fundamental pieces so not even the beta testers no what this game will look like in a month or 2. Your guess is as good as mine. No beta is good at this stage. WoW wasn't, EQ2 wasnt none are. The only thing that matters is what the game is like on release. We'll start catching wind of those rumors around March.
Make a difference!
First off Caravans and Diplomacy are new.
Secondly, Most graphics are rough placeholder graphics that will be phased out over the next few months.
They have learned from WoW unfortunately. Hopefully the game will hold a bit more of a challenge but from the way things are going i'm going to start calling it the first WoW clone.
It will take a nice machine to play it on high graphics. But the high end of today will be the low end next year. If you plan on gaming with a single core 256mb vid card just give up or stick to the older games. Why design for the past?
Make a difference!
I sleep with a pillow under my gun.
Vanguard has proven developers. They have developed most of the standards on which WoW was built. They are directly responsible for the first big growth spurt in the genre. Their first game EQ is still alive with 200k subscribers after 8 years although it has been changed over time. It would probably have more subscribers if they didn't change so much as add new content. Let's not forget that the change was not done by the core developing Vanguard but by SOE. SOE will be involved with Vanguard and i'm sure after the first few years history will repeat itself and McQuaid will sell out to SOE, take his money and develop a new game. This is what developers do.
Vanguard will be immersive. It wont be unique so much as offer a few unique mechanics. It will be a cross between EQ and WoW. This could be good or it could be bad. I'm willing to bet it breaks the 1 million subscriber mark. I'll even give 5:1 odds.
Make a difference!
I think some folks don't like the sounds of it because VG doesn't sound as simplistic as the WoW experience, i.e. solo half asleep to 60 in 2 weeks, then press the buttons when the raid mod tells you to in the "endgame".
Personally I think it looks good precisely because it is frowned on by the WoW section, maybe we're getting another MMO back in the UO and EQ vein with challenge (or grind as it's called apparently) rather than dumbed down for the kindergarten section.
In my opinion, the one's who say that people aren't going to play this game because it's the same old thing are dead wrong.
Sure, a lot of people started their MMO careers with EQ or UO so it might look similar. But I started mine with WoW, and so did thousands of other players.
For many people this will not be the same old thing.
Also, Sigil has stated that they will have at least one PvP server at launch. Ergo, Sigil is not disreguarding PvP.
However, as psyched as I am for the game I'm not going to deny or confirm anything that hasn't been said by the devs. Afterall, nobody has played the finished title yet, so I'm going to save my judgements until release.
I voted yes also. Vanguard seems packed with the features that I want and I trust in Brad Mcquaid's vision for the game. He made EQ which took mmorpgs from being kind of popular( thanks to Ultima Online) and made them into a phenomenon. Its true that WoW brought in many more new people, but EQ reigned supreme for quite a while and definitely paved the way for success.
I am also very big into exploration, which Vanguard offers a huge beautiful world for doing just that. Of course the feel and look of the world was envision by the late and great artist Keith Parkinson who is one of my most favorite artists ever. So naturally this is a HUGE draw for me to be able to explore and see many of the sights that he designed.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Actually if you listen to the inital hardcore fans it seems the game is changing. Alot of people are saying by the end it won't be much harder than WoW.
Difficulty in an MMO is something of a canard. If you are giving people the freedom to choose which content they will explore they will always choose the stuff that best suits their own tastes for risk and reward. Make the game harder and they will drop down a bit on the content, make it easier and they will move up to the more challenging content and even engage content the developers intended for much higher levels or larger groups.
Back to the original question, I think Vanguard will have its audience, and it will have its detractors. People who play Vanguard will continue to think of WoW as a beginner/kiddies MMO and people who play WoW will continue to think Vanguard is a pointless grind.
WoW, EQ2 and Vanguard may all be Fantasy genre item based games but that doesnt mean they cant have game play that appeals to different people. Vanguard will be more massive, more immersive and more epic, however it will pay for that by sacrificing some of your ability to log in an hook up with old friends quickly and a in your ability to accomplish things quickly. People who are more social, have more time and like the immersion and massiveness will like this, others will hate it and look for a lighter game like WoW or go for something down the middle like EQ2.
Maybe a better word than IQ would be "higher attention span" or "durable" or "focused" in what kind of people I think will be drawn to Vanguard.
I don't mind the haters, bashers and flamers. I'm sorry to drag (pre-cu) SWG in to this but... even since I left it I was looking and waiting for a new game to fill that empty space. Game that is... More then game. Where community is connected, where crafters are needed, where world is massive and almost player run.
And atm my only hope is Vanguard.
No it will not be the next big thing because Sigil has already announced who their target audience is mainly:
1. Hardcore players
2. group oriented players.
They have held press releases on it. They have noted that they wanted to market to a particular type of gamer instead of making the game in a way that apeals to the masses.
I think they might be successful in their goals but will not be the next big thing
Bioware son... just wait for Bioware.
Faranthil Tanathalos
EverQuest 1 - Ranger
Star Wars Galaxies - Master Ranger
Everquest2 - Ranger WarhammerOnline - Shadow Warrior
WOW - Hunter
That's right I like bows and arrows.
Someone mentioned it will have a single PvP server... so what- we all saw what happened to Ultima Online when they drew a line in the sand and said PvP'ers over here and Non-Pvp'ers over there... the gameplay just broke down. Felucca became a meaningless gankfest; "We pwned j0o n0oby!"... and Trammel became pixel crack candy land; "Look at all my precious virtual stuff!"
I think the people who know better are going to stay away from games that claim they are "open-PvP" on account of one server out of many. People know that it just segregates the community; and that doesn't pan out well.
I think PKs, Antis, and Carebears should play together- and I know it can work within reason- just that no one has gotten the formula right yet; and I'm not going to support any MMO that isn't going to bother improving on this.
I also urge anyone who feels there is a void in the genre, a lack of progress, stagnation, or if you're just plain unhappy with it- to just stop. Stop sending your money to these two-bit punks caught up in the EQ/WoW clone war. Find other kinds of games to play; find other hobbies- or go support one of your local 24 hour diner's and maybe meet some nice people there over some coffee.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
That was the original plan. Now it's middle of the road. Hardcore gamers will find their challenges and casual gamers can make progress although not quite as fast as WoW. Let's face it there has to be a balance. WoW is just way to simple. About the group oriented aspect. Let me remind you that Brad is the one responsible for the EQ druid. Quad kiting anyone?
Make a difference!
We can all speculate as much as we want, I am suprised no one has taken the
"I will wait for the reviews" route.
Current Games:
even the SLIGHTEST idea what the caravans are? I'm really REALLY
guessing you don't have a single clue so why even bother posting this?
Travel is not unique?
Man I get so pissed from ppl spouting shit like this.
I
voted yes cuz I have full faith that Brad will make another kickass
game like Everquest was and what I've seen so far I'm liking the game
more and more for each day that passes.
I
have MORE than the slightest idea. Stop trying to over-sell an
over-hyped travel system as something that will be an audience draw.
can you please point out where sigil have announced that their target audience are hardcore players?
you can't? thats because it never happened. Sigil have stated countless times that vanguards target audience will be the 'core gamer', this refers to the player whos online about 2-4 hours a night on weekdays, and a bit more on weekends, the average player.
Now i'm not saying vanguard is going to be the next big thing, and personally i don't think it will be, but saying stuff like that which is completely untrue is pointless.
can you please point out where sigil have announced that their target audience are hardcore players?
you can't? thats because it never happened. Sigil have stated countless
times that vanguards target audience will be the 'core gamer',
this refers to the player whos online about 2-4 hours a night on
weekdays, and a bit more on weekends, the average player.
Now
i'm not saying vanguard is going to be the next big thing, and
personally i don't think it will be, but saying stuff like that which
is completely untrue is pointless.
I
wouldnt really say hard-core, but I do recall Brad mentioning to target
a subscribership base of only 250-500K, which is 5% to less than 5% of
the audience in the most successful mmorpg today. So an admission
of, from my take, on the lack of mmo/mmorpg advancement and I've heard
rumblings of how inherintly like EQ and EQ2 it is as a PvE centric game
which many have already played.