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Skill base vs. Level base system
Stellos
Member UncommonPosts: 1,491
Sadly, I feel I'm in the minority when I say I'm F'in sick of level base games. I love skill base, like in UO. Unfortunatly I don't like what they've done with UO, but the skill system was very nice.
I just feel its kind of childish to put in levels...It's more realistic to not know what someone is such in a real life scenerio. One could be a pretty good swordsman but you wouldn't know off hand. If they have level 60 hanging over their head well then it's obvious. Levels just seem hooky to me. I assume I'm in the minority because all games that come out anymore go with the damn level base. Grind, grind, grind.... In skill base games it's not grinding, it's more like practicing 
Comments
Guild Wars...no better skill system than that. You want "practicing" instead of leveling...that's the game.
You level up. Yes. But that just improves your stats. You also have equipment, independant of level, which can be levelled up by itself. You have skills which have their own levels, which in turn increases the effectiveness. You also have weapon skills, which improves the effectiveness with that weapon. Plus, you can also restart your level, starting over at level 1 again with higher base stats, which results in higher stats when you re-rereach that same level, but you still get to use all of that uber-gear you had at level 1000 and keep using it at level 1. And you keep your weapon skills and skills. A well-equipped level 1 can slaughter a level 1000 in one hit. And a character that has made the trip several times stands to be incredibly powerful. And there's a ton of ways to grow the character.
It has levels and it has skills, but I think it's a good game anyway.
I agree. Although I really do like skill systems more than most class systems. The feat-based system of GW is the most free, fair, and versatile system I think I have seen.
Skills vs class is a false dichotomy in my opinion. GWs system is more free than many skill systems I have seen. But EQ-style classes are extremely limted. So it clearly is not class.
In the end what it comes down to is do the players decide which feat/powers they get or the the devs design standard templates?
I vote for players. Some people believe the devs make higher quality stuff. Whatever I ain't no child, lemme make my own mistake! Quit telling me what to do, Mom!
I love level based games...but I would love a level/skill hybred even more! Yeah, you're in the minority Stellos...thank god!
Multiple advancement paths is the way to go...
1) Practice makes perfect! The more You use a skill the stronger it gets...so instead of one big "ding" moment every now and then, you would have a steady stream of dings.
2) When the student is ready the teacher will appear. Quests/Missions to seek out and find masters to learn new skills from.
3) Reading is fundamental. Find/buy books-discs to learn about and aquire new skills.
The grind is going to be there no matter what. There are ways to camouflage it and make it more tolerable...such as
a steady steam of ding moments instead of waiting around for one big one.
Skillbased systems give you much more freedom to build your character as you choose, but grouping is a tad more difficult, as it is not as easy to tell who is near you in skill. Also a skill system can be a bit unforgiving and overwhelming to the MMORPG "newbie". If you put skills in the wrong place, and find out you've totally screwed up your character, its generally not going to be the case that you just click a button and have a clean pallate for skill redistributing.
Personally, I like a system that takes the best of both worlds. Levels so that you can see who's near you in... Uhh.. Level... To make grouping easier, but without classes (or with very customizable skilltrees) so you can make your character unique, and not just a cookiecut.
I think I'm more in favor of the kind of multi-class thing. Except for having to always be in a party, I think that FFXI did it pretty well. You could always change your class and play as another class, so you wouldn't have to create a new character just to do another job. And, most importantly, they had sub-classes, where you would be able to do things in that class too. This allowed for some pretty cool combinations, although made other combinations worthless.
I think balance is one of the most important things. With level-based games, people the same level were pretty much just as powerful as each other. Skill based games, kinda need to even out the playing field a bit more, since everyone is at a different point. Eve, for example, can have a fair fight between someone with millions of skill points and someone with less than one million.
Which is better? Well in Eve it was nice that new players could quickly play with veterans and that it was actual experience, rather than how long you have been playing, that would help you. Level based games, however make life easier in general, holds your hand more.
So I guess when I start thinking levels are better for PvE and skills are better for PvP.
Im just a confused guy
The hand holding thing has alot more to do with publishers trying their best to attract every gamer from 8 year olds on up than it does with the game being level/class based. Anarchy Online didn't hold your hand.
I don't think you're confused...sounds to me like you've thought about this subject before.
BTW, Welcome to the MMORPG forums.
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Do I ever sleep?
Well I would say they should get some kind of even balance between the two, skill and level should be just as important as each other in games. Levels in most games would eventually end up in horrible grind in later levels and so would skills if they were based on practice, take a game like Rappelz for example, the more the fight the more points you get to spend towards skills, this system would have been very good if the numbers of points you needed for the different skills didn't increase at insane rates when mobs only give you about 20 points per kill and your skill needs 1500 points. So I say there need to be a good balance of skills and levels to make a game good to play without loads of grind.
Brrrrr, incorrect!
Ultima Online will beat that hands down.
No longer visiting MMORPG.com.
I could tell you exactly the order of how you are supposed to play through a game by the level of the mobs. be it CoX, WoW, or EQ2 you knew exactly when you could go into a area by the mobs there. Thats where the hand holding comes in. The very unsubtle method by devs to get you to go through content in a very specific order.
And then you also end up with the "game X doesn't start till lvl y" or "its best from level q - z". I have heard this from many of my friends from several games. And I have to wonder why the levels are there if the game is only good at the last one? I usually hear the common excuse that its to learn how to play your character. But lets be honest how many times do I have to relearn how to play a damn priest.
Now why does it Hinder grouping? well my friends and I play different amounts of time so we tend to get split up on lvl based games. Even friend's I meet in game end up falling behind or getting ahead. makes it very hard to find a group of people you can play with consistantly till you hit that lvl cap. again making me wonder why the previous lvls are there anyway.
Your experince points went into a pool where you could spend them like
currency to raise any of your many skills you wanted. The higher
you raised them, the more they would cost to raise, and at the same
time the exp went towards your next level. Go up a level, get a
skill point, spend skill points to unlock skills you didnt have room
for at character creation.
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Every skill based system had it starting with AC, DaoC(uber classes,uber skill sets), many other games. So wtf is the point of giving a choice when that choice is inheritantly flawed and will only cause a ton of disgruntled customers ?
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
Most of these games completly lock everything down. I don't see a problem with unlimted rebuilds or at least in certain areas. Why should a WoW hunter have both bows and traps at one time. You can only carry so much any way I say make him choose between them but allow him to redo it often. That is one of the strngeths of GW there is no one Uber build, because everything is just too siutational. You can never take enough things to counter everything or handle everything.
These games tend to give too many things at once and force you to be completely locked down permanently.
One of the reasons I like level/class based games is because you really have to do your homework and plan ahead. I never really felt I needed to plan anything when I played EVE, Seed, or The Saga of Ryzom.
based systems did not get their start with AC, they started with UO.
It's argruably still one of the best desinged skill systems out there
even today. You use something you get better at it, don't use it for
awhile and your skill goes down a bit. The only problem is that people
were able to macro their skills up to GM level overnight. If they
really wanted to fix that I'm sure they could have.
There is also ways to balance them out so that there is no 1 FOTM build with enough time.
The only way to know anything is by their title on the paperdoll.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Personally I'd like to see a skill based MMo that still incorporates levels.
So like in WoW terms a level 30 has a chance to kill a 60 so it's not like im higher level so i win, but higher level helps.
To prevent someone from getting owned by a noob wo just picked up the game.
I really don't feel there is any significant difference between skill based systems and level based systems. In levels your practice or grind to get to another level, and in skill you practice or grind to get a higher skill. They involve exactly the same activities to get to exactly the same point. The only difference is the name.
However a classless system or multiclass system I like.
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What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?