Originally posted by Greyface If your content is so lame that people will risk their accounts to avoid it, there's a problem. Don't get me wrong, cheating is cheating, but this should be a wake up call to Blizzard regarding thier "endgame" content. Your players should be having fun while playing your game (unless you're Brad McQuaid).
QFE.
I have said this many times elsewhere. If the content is FUN, players will not spend hours and hours thinking up how to avoid it. They will be trying to experience it as fully as possible. By making content be WORK, rather than FUN, companies are just asking for players to find ways around the content, because nobody plays games to work... we play them to have fun.
Yes yes, there will always be a small # of cheaters no matter how fun a game is. But they will be far less numerous if the game is designed to be fun rather than work.
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Greyface If your content is so lame that people will risk their accounts to avoid it, there's a problem. Don't get me wrong, cheating is cheating, but this should be a wake up call to Blizzard regarding thier "endgame" content. Your players should be having fun while playing your game (unless you're Brad McQuaid).
QFE.
I have said this many times elsewhere. If the content is FUN, players will not spend hours and hours thinking up how to avoid it. They will be trying to experience it as fully as possible. By making content be WORK, rather than FUN, companies are just asking for players to find ways around the content, because nobody plays games to work... we play them to have fun.
Yes yes, there will always be a small # of cheaters no matter how fun a game is. But they will be far less numerous if the game is designed to be fun rather than work.
C Then don't play the game. Simple as that. Some people find raiding fun. Some do it simply so they can get the items they need in order to have fun. Some hate it all together. These people should stop playing WoW, and likewise stop bitching on web forums.
While WoW wasn't my cup of tea, to blame Blizzard for this is downright ignorant and outlandish.
To say that these players were justified in their cheating is deplorable, at best. I'm sorry, I guess everyone should be able to sport the Epic gear after a few runs.
That's the problem with MMO's today. Greed. People want to be on a level playing field with hardcore gamers, even though they aren't willing to put in the work to get there. That guy you see with 3 different epic sets of armor¿ He's been playing constantly, every day, running mindless raid after mindless raid, in hopes of getting something he wants. MMO's are just like Sports; you'll get out what you put into it. If you're not willing to work hard every day as a football player, you're not going to get to the NFL. If you're not willing to work hard on raiding and in the game, you're not going to be wearing the best gear there is.
I applaud Blizzard for getting rid of the lazy players. MMORPG's don't need or want you in their games. If you wanna hack and cheat openly, to feel ''1337'', Bnet and Diablo II are right over there...go play with the other hackers.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by Cymdai While WoW wasn't my cup of tea, to blame Blizzard for this is downright ignorant and outlandish.
To say that these players were justified in their cheating is deplorable, at best. I'm sorry, I guess everyone should be able to sport the Epic gear after a few runs.
That's the problem with MMO's today. Greed. People want to be on a level playing field with hardcore gamers, even though they aren't willing to put in the work to get there. That guy you see with 3 different epic sets of armor¿ He's been playing constantly, every day, running mindless raid after mindless raid, in hopes of getting something he wants. MMO's are just like Sports; you'll get out what you put into it. If you're not willing to work hard every day as a football player, you're not going to get to the NFL. If you're not willing to work hard on raiding and in the game, you're not going to be wearing the best gear there is.
I applaud Blizzard for getting rid of the lazy players. MMORPG's don't need or want you in their games. If you wanna hack and cheat openly, to feel ''1337'', Bnet and Diablo II are right over there...go play with the other hackers.
The guild Overrated that got the bann gun are hard core raiders.. they are the first and only US Horde guild to kill Kelthuzad
Originally posted by Cymdai That's the problem with MMO's today. Greed. People want to be on a level playing field with hardcore gamers, even though they aren't willing to put in the work to get there.
Bzzzt, WRONG.
First off, you said "work". A game shouldn't be work.
The majority of people want to get items so they can be on equal level with the same time and effort.
They don't want items given to them for nothing. Thats a common misconception from a raiders standpoint. Raiders think since they have some lock on the mass deaths and repair bills that everyone else must not be as good as they are. Each player should have the same options of rewards for equal time put in. If they put in 12 hours of play and you put it in all at once both should have equal item rewards. In WoW this isn't the case.
Raiders think that other players do not put in the play time they do which again is WRONG. They do but they have NO options to get items on par with raiding no matter how much they play (and I don't mean playing 24 hours straight, I mean 5-6 hours a week). They could put in 500 hours at the rate they do and not ever get a shot at a item on par with BWL gear.
There are also some people that do not raid but play MORE than raiders and yet... they won't ever have the gear to compete.
The problem with WoW is it has PVP and if you can't compete on a equal level as far as items goes then you might as well not go. Sure good players can make up for some items but equally good players will wipe the floor with you.
When you consider a game WORK something is wrong regardless.
So in conclusion, you are just trying to stereo type non-raiders that they are lazy which is infact not true.
Originally posted by Anofalye ROFL I usually think that cheating is bad, however when it come to a lame-foreign-gameplay enforced on peoples who want to rightfully enjoy grouping, I side with cheaters who try to avoid raiding. To the Abyss with Blizzard! See, these peoples, all they did, they try to avoid a nasty foreign gameplay enforcement, because they want to be good either in grouping or PvPing. They are like CG thieves fighting a LE system. Blizzard brought it on themselves.
To say Blizzard brought it on themselves is ridiculous in the extreme. I dont play WoW myself. But to blame a game for folks hacking and exploiting (in ANY game) is just passing the buck. When a person smashes a hole in a back wall of a store,runs in and steals all the cash, is it the stores fault for hiding that cash behind doors,walls and security cameras? I also note that those who are saying that it is still WoW's fault are for the most part the same few folks who are in almost every WoW bash thread. Don't use this as an oppourtunity to bash WoW. When you know the finger pointing should be done elsewhere.Blizzard did NOT tell or force these people to cheat. They took it upon themselves to do so and suffered the consequences. Regardless of whether you feel the game/endgame is bad or horrible that is still no reason to hack and exploit.
And Anofalye, I do understand that english is not your first language and commend you for posting, but I do not understand what you mean by lame-foreign-gameplay. If you could explain plz?
Originally posted by gestalt11 I guess people are probably full of righteous indignation, but for me this is just sad. Sad that they feel that was necessary. They just wanted to save some time. Sad on so many levels. It wasn't even a hack for an actual fight.
Sigh. To me this is what is wrong with many MMORPGs in a nutshell sorta.
I agree. Sure they used a hack in the game and I think they should be banned. But why did they use a hack? Because they couldn't do the fights? Nope. Boredom? Yep. The correct response from the guild would have been to collectively quit the game and let Blizzard know why. Instead the used a hack.
For the record, that was my exact response to Blizzard's commitment to raid content. I quit when I went from hating the MC grind and boredom to starting the BWL grind and boredom. I just couldn't stomach the thought of more of that "challenge" (Sure it's a challenge: a challenge to stay awake!). We had rogues who would go AFK for so much of the time that they often fell below the DPS of paladins who healed and attacked mobs. Most of the healers I knew, who did their job well, watched TV while raiding. What a challenge.
I think 98% of the people arguing that they "worked harder" and therefore deserve so much more than other gamers haven't been in the working world for any time at all. Work 45 hour weeks (heck toss in some 80-100 hour weeks) for 7 years and see how much excitement you get out of raiding. See how much you feel like doing a 6 hour raid in your free time 5 days a week. It will start to feel like what you are trying to escape from. Then come and talk about work and rewards... For me, I'll keep looking for a fun escape where I can play. If I want to watch TV I will watch. If a game (*cough*EVE*cough*WoW Raiding*cough*) drives me to watch TV while I play, I iwll cancel.
I think raiding should be what it was in Lineage 2: an event! 200 people going to kill a dragon at great personal risk (dropping gear on death) for loot that wasn't "unique". All WoW has done with raiding is cheapen the words "Epic" and "Legendary".
My old guild, Cloak of Shadows, did some minor exploits too...
We pulled the dragons (Dreamcatcher, so on) to Orgrimmar, causing mass destruction among players.
We did boat fights, which is basically fighting on Alliance boats. Once the boat leaves the dock and transfers to a different area, we come back alive and full healed. Good times.
We got into AQ, Hyjal, I myself as my warrior, Lokoko, got over the Greymane's wall (I have screenshots to prove it).
Originally posted by 321abcde Originally posted by liddokun http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/worldofwarcraft/news.html?sid=6160983 First WoW guild that got their whole guild banned for exploiting a raid content. And if you think Sony is notorious for banning whole guilds ...
Honestly, I don't care.
My old guild, Cloak of Shadows, did some minor exploits too...
We pulled the dragons (Dreamcatcher, so on) to Orgrimmar, causing mass destruction among players.
We did boat fights, which is basically fighting on Alliance boats. Once the boat leaves the dock and transfers to a different area, we come back alive and full healed. Good times.
We got into AQ, Hyjal, I myself as my warrior, Lokoko, got over the Greymane's wall (I have screenshots to prove it).
There are quite a few people who have done this, and almost none of them have gotten banned.
There's a very large difference between "fun" exploits, such as traveling to blocked-off areas, and exploits which give you a significant advantage. I believe skipping an entire night's worth of raiding and boss-killing qualifies as significant advantage.
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by Cymdai That's the problem with MMO's today. Greed. People want to be on a level playing field with hardcore gamers, even though they aren't willing to put in the work to get there.
Bzzzt, WRONG.
First off, you said "work". A game shouldn't be work.
Bzzzt, WRONG.
Work is defined as effort. You, personally, might see the word "work" as a bad thing - a chore. I see work as effort to achieve something. Some people have hobbies that take hours, like building model planes. Others like spend hours on the green golfing. Others of us see our characters both as a symbol of time spent with friends and achievement in gaming.
So the guy above was right. Casual gamers want to be as powerful as hardcore gamers and whine if they're not given everything. This is also the origin of the lack of RISK in MMOs. Used to be you risked something (corpse in a spot you cant get to, being looted on death, etc.) but noooooo. People whined and expectations changed after years of game companies giving in to whiners. I laugh at anyone who complains about how bad MMOs are today when they whine about death and PvP in the same paragraph.
One of the greatest achievements in EQ1 for me was making a run to the Plane of Mischief (no small task mind you) and surviving there for a month or more. It was work - but the good kind.
Originally posted by KillerJimmy Originally posted by gestalt11 I guess people are probably full of righteous indignation, but for me this is just sad. Sad that they feel that was necessary. They just wanted to save some time. Sad on so many levels. It wasn't even a hack for an actual fight.
Sigh. To me this is what is wrong with many MMORPGs in a nutshell sorta.
I agree. Sure they used a hack in the game and I think they should be banned. But why did they use a hack? Because they couldn't do the fights? Nope. Boredom? Yep. The correct response from the guild would have been to collectively quit the game and let Blizzard know why. Instead the used a hack.
For the record, that was my exact response to Blizzard's commitment to raid content. I quit when I went from hating the MC grind and boredom to starting the BWL grind and boredom. I just couldn't stomach the thought of more of that "challenge" (Sure it's a challenge: a challenge to stay awake!). We had rogues who would go AFK for so much of the time that they often fell below the DPS of paladins who healed and attacked mobs. Most of the healers I knew, who did their job well, watched TV while raiding. What a challenge.
I think 98% of the people arguing that they "worked harder" and therefore deserve so much more than other gamers haven't been in the working world for any time at all. Work 45 hour weeks (heck toss in some 80-100 hour weeks) for 7 years and see how much excitement you get out of raiding. See how much you feel like doing a 6 hour raid in your free time 5 days a week. It will start to feel like what you are trying to escape from. Then come and talk about work and rewards... For me, I'll keep looking for a fun escape where I can play. If I want to watch TV I will watch. If a game (*cough*EVE*cough*WoW Raiding*cough*) drives me to watch TV while I play, I iwll cancel.
I think raiding should be what it was in Lineage 2: an event! 200 people going to kill a dragon at great personal risk (dropping gear on death) for loot that wasn't "unique". All WoW has done with raiding is cheapen the words "Epic" and "Legendary".
heh I'm done ranting for now.
The reason behind them using the hacks is irrelevant. They used them, and they deserve to get banned. Honestly, the way mmorpgs ARE built is that time = reward. That's it. If you don't like it, you should really not be playing in this genre. There are a slew of games coming out that claim to be "casual-friendly", and I suggest you people look into them, but whining about the fact that WoW follows the general pattern that DEFINES the entire genre is just stupid.
Yes, I feel fine using the word "work" to describe certain elements in a game, simply because I find it impossible to have fun if everything is handed to me like I'm some little child. I don't like it when games hold my hands the entire way through, and I like feeling like I actually earned whatever "epic" items I recieve. The anticipations and work involved makes it oh so much sweeter when you actually get what you've been craving.
They shoulda perma banned any account to touch a single gold earned through this guild and laundered, and warped protesters to space. Otherwise this doesn't seem very news worthy.
Blizzard had to show a tough stance on it and express the message loud and clear, if you exploit/hack you will be banned. Now the problem is the video is on the internet and people know exactly how to replicate what they did.
Comments
QFE.
I have said this many times elsewhere. If the content is FUN, players will not spend hours and hours thinking up how to avoid it. They will be trying to experience it as fully as possible. By making content be WORK, rather than FUN, companies are just asking for players to find ways around the content, because nobody plays games to work... we play them to have fun.
Yes yes, there will always be a small # of cheaters no matter how fun a game is. But they will be far less numerous if the game is designed to be fun rather than work.
C
I have said this many times elsewhere. If the content is FUN, players will not spend hours and hours thinking up how to avoid it. They will be trying to experience it as fully as possible. By making content be WORK, rather than FUN, companies are just asking for players to find ways around the content, because nobody plays games to work... we play them to have fun.
Yes yes, there will always be a small # of cheaters no matter how fun a game is. But they will be far less numerous if the game is designed to be fun rather than work.
C
Then don't play the game. Simple as that. Some people find raiding fun. Some do it simply so they can get the items they need in order to have fun. Some hate it all together. These people should stop playing WoW, and likewise stop bitching on web forums.
To say that these players were justified in their cheating is deplorable, at best. I'm sorry, I guess everyone should be able to sport the Epic gear after a few runs.
That's the problem with MMO's today. Greed. People want to be on a level playing field with hardcore gamers, even though they aren't willing to put in the work to get there. That guy you see with 3 different epic sets of armor¿ He's been playing constantly, every day, running mindless raid after mindless raid, in hopes of getting something he wants. MMO's are just like Sports; you'll get out what you put into it. If you're not willing to work hard every day as a football player, you're not going to get to the NFL. If you're not willing to work hard on raiding and in the game, you're not going to be wearing the best gear there is.
I applaud Blizzard for getting rid of the lazy players. MMORPG's don't need or want you in their games. If you wanna hack and cheat openly, to feel ''1337'', Bnet and Diablo II are right over there...go play with the other hackers.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
The guild Overrated that got the bann gun are hard core raiders.. they are the first and only US Horde guild to kill Kelthuzad
First off, you said "work". A game shouldn't be work.
The majority of people want to get items so they can be on equal level with the same time and effort.
They don't want items given to them for nothing. Thats a common misconception from a raiders standpoint. Raiders think since they have some lock on the mass deaths and repair bills that everyone else must not be as good as they are. Each player should have the same options of rewards for equal time put in. If they put in 12 hours of play and you put it in all at once both should have equal item rewards. In WoW this isn't the case.
Raiders think that other players do not put in the play time they do which again is WRONG. They do but they have NO options to get items on par with raiding no matter how much they play (and I don't mean playing 24 hours straight, I mean 5-6 hours a week). They could put in 500 hours at the rate they do and not ever get a shot at a item on par with BWL gear.
There are also some people that do not raid but play MORE than raiders and yet... they won't ever have the gear to compete.
The problem with WoW is it has PVP and if you can't compete on a equal level as far as items goes then you might as well not go. Sure good players can make up for some items but equally good players will wipe the floor with you.
When you consider a game WORK something is wrong regardless.
So in conclusion, you are just trying to stereo type non-raiders that they are lazy which is infact not true.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
And Anofalye, I do understand that english is not your first language and commend you for posting, but I do not understand what you mean by lame-foreign-gameplay. If you could explain plz?
I agree. Sure they used a hack in the game and I think they should be banned. But why did they use a hack? Because they couldn't do the fights? Nope. Boredom? Yep. The correct response from the guild would have been to collectively quit the game and let Blizzard know why. Instead the used a hack.
For the record, that was my exact response to Blizzard's commitment to raid content. I quit when I went from hating the MC grind and boredom to starting the BWL grind and boredom. I just couldn't stomach the thought of more of that "challenge" (Sure it's a challenge: a challenge to stay awake!). We had rogues who would go AFK for so much of the time that they often fell below the DPS of paladins who healed and attacked mobs. Most of the healers I knew, who did their job well, watched TV while raiding. What a challenge.
I think 98% of the people arguing that they "worked harder" and therefore deserve so much more than other gamers haven't been in the working world for any time at all. Work 45 hour weeks (heck toss in some 80-100 hour weeks) for 7 years and see how much excitement you get out of raiding. See how much you feel like doing a 6 hour raid in your free time 5 days a week. It will start to feel like what you are trying to escape from. Then come and talk about work and rewards... For me, I'll keep looking for a fun escape where I can play. If I want to watch TV I will watch. If a game (*cough*EVE*cough*WoW Raiding*cough*) drives me to watch TV while I play, I iwll cancel.
I think raiding should be what it was in Lineage 2: an event! 200 people going to kill a dragon at great personal risk (dropping gear on death) for loot that wasn't "unique". All WoW has done with raiding is cheapen the words "Epic" and "Legendary".
heh I'm done ranting for now.
My old guild, Cloak of Shadows, did some minor exploits too...
We pulled the dragons (Dreamcatcher, so on) to Orgrimmar, causing mass destruction among players.
We did boat fights, which is basically fighting on Alliance boats. Once the boat leaves the dock and transfers to a different area, we come back alive and full healed. Good times.
We got into AQ, Hyjal, I myself as my warrior, Lokoko, got over the Greymane's wall (I have screenshots to prove it).
I cannot hear you over the SHUT THE FUCK UP!
My old guild, Cloak of Shadows, did some minor exploits too...
We pulled the dragons (Dreamcatcher, so on) to Orgrimmar, causing mass destruction among players.
We did boat fights, which is basically fighting on Alliance boats. Once the boat leaves the dock and transfers to a different area, we come back alive and full healed. Good times.
We got into AQ, Hyjal, I myself as my warrior, Lokoko, got over the Greymane's wall (I have screenshots to prove it).
There are quite a few people who have done this, and almost none of them have gotten banned.
There's a very large difference between "fun" exploits, such as traveling to blocked-off areas, and exploits which give you a significant advantage. I believe skipping an entire night's worth of raiding and boss-killing qualifies as significant advantage.
First off, you said "work". A game shouldn't be work.
Bzzzt, WRONG.
Work is defined as effort. You, personally, might see the word "work" as a bad thing - a chore. I see work as effort to achieve something. Some people have hobbies that take hours, like building model planes. Others like spend hours on the green golfing. Others of us see our characters both as a symbol of time spent with friends and achievement in gaming.
So the guy above was right. Casual gamers want to be as powerful as hardcore gamers and whine if they're not given everything. This is also the origin of the lack of RISK in MMOs. Used to be you risked something (corpse in a spot you cant get to, being looted on death, etc.) but noooooo. People whined and expectations changed after years of game companies giving in to whiners. I laugh at anyone who complains about how bad MMOs are today when they whine about death and PvP in the same paragraph.
One of the greatest achievements in EQ1 for me was making a run to the Plane of Mischief (no small task mind you) and surviving there for a month or more. It was work - but the good kind.
I agree. Sure they used a hack in the game and I think they should be banned. But why did they use a hack? Because they couldn't do the fights? Nope. Boredom? Yep. The correct response from the guild would have been to collectively quit the game and let Blizzard know why. Instead the used a hack.
For the record, that was my exact response to Blizzard's commitment to raid content. I quit when I went from hating the MC grind and boredom to starting the BWL grind and boredom. I just couldn't stomach the thought of more of that "challenge" (Sure it's a challenge: a challenge to stay awake!). We had rogues who would go AFK for so much of the time that they often fell below the DPS of paladins who healed and attacked mobs. Most of the healers I knew, who did their job well, watched TV while raiding. What a challenge.
I think 98% of the people arguing that they "worked harder" and therefore deserve so much more than other gamers haven't been in the working world for any time at all. Work 45 hour weeks (heck toss in some 80-100 hour weeks) for 7 years and see how much excitement you get out of raiding. See how much you feel like doing a 6 hour raid in your free time 5 days a week. It will start to feel like what you are trying to escape from. Then come and talk about work and rewards... For me, I'll keep looking for a fun escape where I can play. If I want to watch TV I will watch. If a game (*cough*EVE*cough*WoW Raiding*cough*) drives me to watch TV while I play, I iwll cancel.
I think raiding should be what it was in Lineage 2: an event! 200 people going to kill a dragon at great personal risk (dropping gear on death) for loot that wasn't "unique". All WoW has done with raiding is cheapen the words "Epic" and "Legendary".
heh I'm done ranting for now.
The reason behind them using the hacks is irrelevant. They used them, and they deserve to get banned. Honestly, the way mmorpgs ARE built is that time = reward. That's it. If you don't like it, you should really not be playing in this genre. There are a slew of games coming out that claim to be "casual-friendly", and I suggest you people look into them, but whining about the fact that WoW follows the general pattern that DEFINES the entire genre is just stupid.
Yes, I feel fine using the word "work" to describe certain elements in a game, simply because I find it impossible to have fun if everything is handed to me like I'm some little child. I don't like it when games hold my hands the entire way through, and I like feeling like I actually earned whatever "epic" items I recieve. The anticipations and work involved makes it oh so much sweeter when you actually get what you've been craving.
They cant because Blizzard fixed it.
Ah right, thats good.