I thnk Dan Fortier's point about having the funeral on a PvP server implies cuplability, is probably facile and a bit stupid, you hold the funeral on whichever server the girl played on, where her friends and guildmates all are, it's not a choice one deliberately makes.
WoW's rather childish "pick a side" mechanisms don't really help in this respect, at least in a proper open PvP environment they would have been facing all of the mourners not just the alliance ones.
All the points about preparation are valid, you can't assume the scum will become less scum-like simply because something more serious is occuring, it's sad that people so often use the internet's anonymity as a coward's shield to act in ways they never would if there were repercussions, but one has to acknowledge that is the case and be prepared for it.
This is a heated Debate in my game of choice Eudemons Online - Open PvP system and well now i don't think i could play any other type of system i mean yeah there is times i wanna pick my comp up and chuck it through the nearest window but in hindsight i realize that the Open PvP has given me that much more resolve to be able to fend off PK'ers at my own level which is let them hit me then hit them on Capture mode of course i have to choose these targets carefully (FYI.-I only examine Gear if i see i have been examined) some of my enemies i have to hit before they hit me....
All in all, yes I agree what they did was despicable but all the victim needs to remeber is
"Payback is a Bitch, And revenge is a dish best served Cold"
First off all, its a debate about open PVP and not about the ingame funeral.
I started playing World of Warcraft for the 'War' in Warcraft. I really thought the game would be about the 2 factions fighting and capture enemy towns. In the end it wasn't even possible to have big battles because the servers could not handle it. To make things worse they have created battlegrounds to have battles and introduces DK's. Even the raids to x-roads are gone.
In the end I think no MMO can have big battles because of the server(s). The best game yet who has good PVP is EVE. The war there shapes the ingame world which MMO's should be all about, ever changing worlds!
My opinion on the particular situation you "debated" is simply this. Serenity Now, did nothing wrong, sure it was in poor taste but it wasnt "wrong".
If the mourning guild really wanted to celebrate their friends memory they would have chosen an appropriate zone, one of the non-contested zones. Any other choice on a PVP server is just down right foolish. In fact, if they would have chosen a non-contested zone for the ceremony they would truly have seen a proper show of respect as people from both factions would have shown up and paid respect. Any violations of the "truce" would necessarily have been their own faction, and therefore it would be themselves who were to blame, as indeed they were in this case.
PVP servers, are what they are, we who play on them know without a doubt where we are safe and where we are at risk. Appropriate consideration should have been given to this prior to the event so that any such hostile actions could be prevented. Indeed, lack of prior consideration is just as much a show of disrespect for the deceased as was the interrupting attack. And yes you are interpreting my reasoning correct if you come to the conclusion that such an attack was inevietable in this situation, if not during the actual ceremony it would have occured on the way there or right after on any pvp server. Face it, we kill the opposite faction as a matter of course, there is no emotion in it other than thrill.
At worst, the attacking guild can be accused of nothing more than oppertunistic, poor taste. The guild holding the event shares an equal share of any guilt/hate/anguish generated by the attack. It was thier advertising of the event that notified the enemy guild anyway...extremely poor judgement on a pvp server. What, honestly, did they expect? A PVP server is pretty much a total gank-fest from level 15-60, thats just the way it is.
Honor, or morality cannot be attached to any such fighting on a PVP server, you are implicitly consenting to cross-faction fighting the second you create a character on a PVP server. It is up to you to avoid fights if that is your desire, the other person is under no obligation to grant mercy, consideration or good will at any time on a PVP server. You are always fair game, and so are they, always.
I don't accept Serinity Now's rationaliziation that they "did it to encourage PvP." You can attach an agenda to any outrageous behavior. For example, there is a group of people who show up and cheer at rl funerals these days and hold up signs expressing how glad they are that the person is deceased. They have some screwed up "agenda" they claim to be promoting too. But all they are really promoting is hate and the sick thrill they get from being hated.
There was no excuse for these kids' behavior. Perhaps someday when they are old enough to experience the loss of a close family member they will recognize how wrongly they acted. The problem with people who aren't old enough to care about anything is that they oftentimes don't respect anything for that reason.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Originally posted by Amathe I don't accept Serinity Now's rationaliziation that they "did it to encourage PvP." You can attach an agenda to any outrageous behavior. For example, there is a group of people who show up and cheer at rl funerals these days and hold up signs expressing how glad they are that the person is deceased. They have some screwed up "agenda" they claim to be promoting too. But all they are really promoting is hate and the sick thrill they get from being hated. There was no excuse for these kids' behavior. Perhaps someday when they are old enough to experience the loss of a close family member they will recognize how wrongly they acted. The problem with people who aren't old enough to care about anything is that they oftentimes don't respect anything for that reason.
i 2 wonder why some games are called heroic fantasy when u have to spend years finding even 1 hero (justifying that name by behaviour and morality) under thousands of griefers, thiefs and murderers ?
if your bored, visit my blog at: http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Its important to seperate the instance from the issue. The situation itself simply illustrates the issue at hand, the debate is about the issue not the situation.
The issue is: Is there a moral component to player versus player gameplay on a specifically pvp server? I say, no there isnt. PVP servers exist for the explicit purpose of allowing a wider range of PVP encounters, more specifically free for all fighting in contested areas, areas belonging to neither faction.
In the specific issue at hand it is irrelevant that it was fundamentally a funeral service, indeed, it wouldnt matter if it was a funeral, bah mitzva, birthday party or coming out gala, none of those things take a moral precidence over the intrinsic consent for Player Versus Player gameplay.
It has already been explained that if the people in question had wanted to they could have held thier little gathering in faction controlled territory, which would make pvp attacks impossible. They chose not to do so, so any action is firmly thier responsibility, not the people who executed the attack.
There is no moral component between opposite factions on a pvp server. On a PVP server the burden of avoiding conflict rests SOLELY with the person wishing to avoid conflict.
The players attending the funeral service learned a hard lesson. Perhaps it's true that they should have known something like that could happen; afterall, it is that kind of server and I've never seen honor on any full PvP server. You need to learn early in life that the world is full of bullies and hypocrits and trust no one until you're sure you know them well.
It's actually a good thing that gankers/griefers are contained on their own servers. Don't enter if you want to avoid that kind of rifraf. Actually, I've known some really nice people who like full PvP, and they've tried to explain it to me. But then, they were the kind that didn't run around ganking players a lot lower than they were, either. and they certainly weren't the type to ruin a funeral. Behind those mourners were real life people who genuinely cared for the person who had left their guild. It never ceases to amaze me how little compassion people have for each other. It's no wonder we have eternal wars. Humans will never learn.
You say I'm wrong to compare games like this with real life? That games are only for fun? I disagree. I find that people are exactly what they really are while playing games, and not the hypocrits they pretend to be in real life. A bully with any other name still smells the same.
Originally posted by Brynn The players attending the funeral service learned a hard lesson. Perhaps it's true that they should have known something like that could happen; afterall, it is that kind of server and I've never seen honor on any full PvP server. You need to learn early in life that the world is full of bullies and hypocrits and trust no one until you're sure you know them well. It's actually a good thing that gankers/griefers are contained on their own servers. Don't enter if you want to avoid that kind of rifraf. Actually, I've known some really nice people who like full PvP, and they've tried to explain it to me. But then, they were the kind that didn't run around ganking players a lot lower than they were, either. and they certainly weren't the type to ruin a funeral. Behind those mourners were real life people who genuinely cared for the person who had left their guild. It never ceases to amaze me how little compassion people have for each other. It's no wonder we have eternal wars. Humans will never learn. You say I'm wrong to compare games like this with real life? That games are only for fun? I disagree. I find that people are exactly what they really are while playing games, and not the hypocrits they pretend to be in real life. A bully with any other name still smells the same.
I take exception to your classification of PVP server players. You are wrong. People play on those servers for a wide variety of reasons. People like me (Married 14 years, 2 daughters, house, Job, pay my taxes, dont break the law, god fearing and whatnot etc) play becuase there is an added edge to the game play, a greater challenge. True there are a lot of gankers, but thats why we play there for the added edge.
"Good against remotes, thats one thing, good against the living....thats something else" (Paraphrase of Han Solo).
I would say that a pvp server isnt an appropriate place for a funeral service period.
Real gankers and griefers rarely inhabit PVP servers...they get too much competition, the real griefers like to plague the carebear servers, thats where they can do real damage.
What exactly is hypocritical about playing on a PVP server? What is immoral about ganking? What is bullying in an environment where you have total and utter freedom to avoid any such bullies?
That you dont like PVP is one thing, that you dont like PVP servers is one thing, that you classify a huge portion of the population unjustly, that is something all together different.
To be blunt, this article has very little, or anything to do with Open PvP at all.
However, if anyone ever holds an in-game funeral for me (which I sincerely hope they do not), I would find it highly amusing if a group decided to steamroll over the occasion
On a final note, it is never a good idea to compare in game ethics to any kind of real life equivalent...it's pretty self explanatory why they are totally different things.
Originally posted by rpgmachine To be blunt, this article has very little, or anything to do with Open PvP at all. However, if anyone ever holds an in-game funeral for me (which I sincerely hope they do not), I would find it highly amusing if a group decided to steamroll over the occasion On a final note, it is never a good idea to compare in game ethics to any kind of real life equivalent...it's pretty self explanatory why they are totally different things.
It saddens me that we have individuals with no morals playing such a fine game. Yes, the said server is PvP, however, it was well-known that the funeral was being held. Show respect. Even during America's bloodiest conflict, the Civil War, both Union and Confederate troops paused from the madness during Christmas to share tales from home and caroles.
There are those that do not seem to pay attention to history nor have the morals to take pause for something so tragic as to rise way above any multi-million dollar a month cartoon, such as WoW. The offending guild should be banned, however this won't happen. I do believe every member of the guild should have names shown in ALL WoW forums. By doing this we make the offenders responsible. The did this for publicity. Fine! Let's allow them to be known. In doing this, they then accomplish the dastardly deed they set out to accomplish. Noone will party with them. They will be as infamous as Stalin and Hitler, as warm and fuzzy as Charles Mason, and about as palitable as three day old vomit.
I have no time nor do I care what happens to these reprobates. As far as I'm concerned, they have NO jobs, no girlfriends, no real life friends, and still wet their beds at night.
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
It was pretty funny to see them drop like flies. But the funniest thing is that the guild ruined the event and the only thing the self-righteous people can do is name-call on the public forums. So what? They admitted that they were just being assholes. Like that's going to scare them. Some punishment.
Is it any different than raiding an NPC instance? The game with quests that teach you hate the other faction. Suddenly this real life event is supposed to join them together and ruin the atmosphere. Whose ruining who's game here? And people wonder why role-playing is non-existent. Here a guild role-plays as jerks and actually delivers, and the care-bears want them dead, in real life. Smell the irony, peace-lovers.
Originally posted by rpgmachine On a final note, it is never a good idea to compare in game ethics to any kind of real life equivalent...it's pretty self explanatory why they are totally different things.
You are quite mistaken.
We are never challenged more in our ethical behavior than when we can "get away" with something. For example, look at the crime sprees you see in the wake of a natural disaster, with looting, rape, and murder. Why does that happen? Because people are suddenly in a position where they can get away with doing things they would otherwise be answerable for doing. You don't really know if you are an ethical person or not until you can choose right from wrong without any consequence other than the knowledge of what kind of person your behavior makes you.
If you go online and act like a jerk just because you can get away with it, don't think for a moment that doesn't reflect on your moral character or lack of it. You will not be punished - other than the knowledge that you are in fact an asshole.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
It is rather sad that some cannot distinguish between a game and real life. It is even sadder that the same lame "well it's a pvp server" arguments keep popping up. You hold the funeral on the server that person played on, just like in real life you hold the funeral where the person lived, not where they died.
People need to understand that there is a lline and when not to cross it. This wasn't about the hunter epic mob getting attacked by some random player, that's an ingame issue vs an ingame player. This was about a real world event (a funeral) that was ruined by ingame players just so they could ruin it. Someone of their guild even posted a video of it with the title "So we Pwned this Funeral LOL", which just shows how sorry they really were. If there were any hypocrites, they are in Serenity Now.
It was mentioned that real gankers/griefers don't attend pvp servers which I believe isn't correct. Numerous times I've heard of the hunter demon quest mob getting attacked for the sole reason to grief the hunter. STV has been referred to as Vietenam with all the 60 hunters sniping from the bushes, 60 rogues ganking at nessingway's, etc. Some (not all) pvpers do take on a bully attitude, but then rationalize it with "its a pvp server and they The Enemy" stance.
The reason so many people equate PvPer with Ganker, is that so many of them are just that. The fact that many pvpers didn't condemn Serenity Now implies that they condone what they did. I agree that the anonimity of the internet gave Serenity Now more courage, had they met these people in person I doubt they would of ran into the funeral home and caused a scene.
I also think that ganking gets people so upset is due to the same bully attitude. I mean, I want to pvp for the challenge. How is PKing someone half your level (or less) who has virtually zero chance of beating you proved your "leet skillz"? That's like playing a FPS in god mode, may be fun for a few minutes but gets boring quick.
I regularly play on PvP servers.... yet I don't gank. I'm enjoy the challenge of surviving, despite the ganking by others. I do bring my own morals and values into the game with me, but don't expect other players to do so.
While I wouldn't have ganked the people having the funeral, I fully support the right of the players who did so. As so many have said, its a game, and on a PvP server, its up to the players to enforce justice.
That doesn't make the gankers "bad" or "immoral" or heartless... it just means they enjoy killing cartoon characters within the confines of the rules.
Does it make me mad sometimes....sure... especially if I was close to achieving a particular goal. But I'm never going to want to tell people to restrict how they play their game....
This debate was poorly done, it really had nothing to do with the value of FFA Pvp.... and I hope future debates stay more topical.... this one was terrribly old news...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Amathe Originally posted by rpgmachine On a final note, it is never a good idea to compare in game ethics to any kind of real life equivalent...it's pretty self explanatory why they are totally different things.
You are quite mistaken.
We are never challenged more in our ethical behavior than when we can "get away" with something. For example, look at the crime sprees you see in the wake of a natural disaster, with looting, rape, and murder. Why does that happen? Because people are suddenly in a position where they can get away with doing things they would otherwise be answerable for doing. You don't really know if you are an ethical person or not until you can choose right from wrong without any consequence other than the knowledge of what kind of person your behavior makes you.
If you go online and act like a jerk just because you can get away with it, don't think for a moment that doesn't reflect on your moral character or lack of it. You will not be punished - other than the knowledge that you are in fact an asshole.
I completely disagree with you.
WoW is a Role-Playing game. If someone wants to play the role of an anti-social assassin who steals and kills at every opportunity, great! That's their choice. Part of the point of role-playing games is the ability to play different roles than you ever would in real life.
I don't like open PvP (and usually even avoid restricted PvP) but that's not relevant. If you hold an announced event in a public unprotected area on a PvP server, you must expect that there will be people playing roles such that they will attack you.
Was Serenity Now playing a role or just doing it because they could? I have no idea so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Originally posted by DrowNoble It is rather sad that some cannot distinguish between a game and real life.
So if you lose a close family member or friend, I can call you on the telephone and laugh at your loss? I mean, it's just a telephone connection right (just like in an mmo), so it's not real? Maybe I could send you an e-mail and delight in your family member's passing. It's an e-mail (just like an in game /tell) so that isn't real either?
WoW may be a game, but in this instance real life grief was at issue. There is never a reason to screw with people who are experiencing that, regardless of where or how it occurs, or what technology is used to do it.
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Yeah... It was in an ingame funeral Where an Alliance based guild which I believe is supposed to represent the good guys or something like that. Went on a killing spree.
Dispicable is all I have to say. You cannot justify bad sportmanship in anyway. Attacking an unarmed combatant is the same and shooting someone in the back. It is both cowardly and dishonorable.
The best part of that video was the Scatman music...There is nothing like seeing people get killed to someone in the background going Be-Dat-Dat-Da-Do--Dat-Dat-Da-Do over and over again
Seriously though, the gankees were the one's who brought a real life event into the game and so they are responsable for what happened just as much as the gankers. It's not just WoW either...Imagine someone trying to hold a peaceful gather on Mordred.
I think Amathe misunderstood my statement about real life and games. I am absolutely not condoning what Serenity Now did. My point was that Serenity Now apparently couldn't separate an ingame mechanic (open pvp) and a real life event (funeral). So yes, calling me and laughing at my loss or sending disrepectful email would also be umm... inappropriate to put it mildly.
I bet even today, that in /gu chat Serenity Now probably still brags about it to themselves. People like that disgust me and are the minority gankers that give the majority pvpers a bad name.
Oh and sorry Amathe if I sounded like I was sympathizing with them. I definately was not nor was any of my post meant to be sympathic in any way to Serenity Now.
I didn't read all of the thread, as it got repetitive and boring after the 2nd page...
But still want to get my 2cents off.
As already stated, it's a game. Shall others stop playing it, because you and your friends want to do some peaceful event? Guess not.
Also people are dying everyday.. a lot of people, and as MMORPG are still on the rise, and a Mass-Market now, the players get older too. So even more dead gamers than ever before.
You want to hold a in-game funeral everytime a gamer has died? I for one would still like to play the game, so if you must have some event like that, do it in an appropriate area. A PVP area is doomed to kill the event, and that's not exactly news... .
The whole topic is kind of stupid.. and the title misleading as I was expecting a real debate on open PvP and not this b######t.
You want to hold a in-game funeral everytime a gamer has died? I for one would still like to play the game, so if you must have some event like that, do it in an appropriate area.
I would agree that holding a funeral in a video game is asking for trouble. It's like holding a funeral in an insane asylum and hoping for order. But people make questionable decisions like that when they are sad, and in this case these people knew each other mostly from this environment. So while it was a dubious decision, it still doesn't excuse griefing them.
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Originally posted by Amathe Originally posted by rpgmachine On a final note, it is never a good idea to compare in game ethics to any kind of real life equivalent...it's pretty self explanatory why they are totally different things.
You are quite mistaken.
We are never challenged more in our ethical behavior than when we can "get away" with something. For example, look at the crime sprees you see in the wake of a natural disaster, with looting, rape, and murder. Why does that happen? Because people are suddenly in a position where they can get away with doing things they would otherwise be answerable for doing. You don't really know if you are an ethical person or not until you can choose right from wrong without any consequence other than the knowledge of what kind of person your behavior makes you.
If you go online and act like a jerk just because you can get away with it, don't think for a moment that doesn't reflect on your moral character or lack of it. You will not be punished - other than the knowledge that you are in fact an asshole.
Exactly right. The internet has become the modern day 'The Invisible Man'. No one knows who you really are. You suffer no consequences for your behavior once you log off the game, or onto an alt. Make no mistake though, those of you who log onto these online games and forums and glorify in being the biggest Ahole you can be, thats exactly what you are at the core.
I can emphasize with, if not support, Daimen7's senitment about violence. Sometimes I do wonder if people like the players of Serenity Now and others like them would learn some respect, or at least restraint, if their actions caused them to get skull dragged down the block a time or to.
I see little bearing on the announcement, if there was one, for the funeral. People say it was a taunt, or a dare. I say it was most likely exactly what it sounded like. A plea to be left alone while they had a ceremony for a lost friend.
They had it in a PvP zone. Poor planning? Or maybe they were holding it their friends favorite spot in the game, to make it as meaningful as possible? Regardless, people should have had the common decencey to leave them be for the ceremony.
Some of you claim the sanctity of the PvP server as reason enough to justify. But your PvP is meaningless. Whoever you kill comes back, you can't take and hold cities, the face of the game undergoes no changes due to your actions.
So refraining from one meaningless exercise in PvP changes nothing.
As to open PvP, I would agree that it *can* regulate griefers to an extent. It can also give griefers a wider range of targets.
I doubt we'll ever see truely meaningful PvP. On every server the horde seems to be outnumbered by at least 2 to 1. If sides were able to actually take and hold ground, The Horde would have been wiped out long ago, and then what's the point?
Comments
I thnk Dan Fortier's point about having the funeral on a PvP server implies cuplability, is probably facile and a bit stupid, you hold the funeral on whichever server the girl played on, where her friends and guildmates all are, it's not a choice one deliberately makes.
WoW's rather childish "pick a side" mechanisms don't really help in this respect, at least in a proper open PvP environment they would have been facing all of the mourners not just the alliance ones.
All the points about preparation are valid, you can't assume the scum will become less scum-like simply because something more serious is occuring, it's sad that people so often use the internet's anonymity as a coward's shield to act in ways they never would if there were repercussions, but one has to acknowledge that is the case and be prepared for it.
This is a heated Debate in my game of choice Eudemons Online - Open PvP system and well now i don't think i could play any other type of system i mean yeah there is times i wanna pick my comp up and chuck it through the nearest window but in hindsight i realize that the Open PvP has given me that much more resolve to be able to fend off PK'ers at my own level which is let them hit me then hit them on Capture mode of course i have to choose these targets carefully (FYI.-I only examine Gear if i see i have been examined) some of my enemies i have to hit before they hit me....
All in all, yes I agree what they did was despicable but all the victim needs to remeber is
"Payback is a Bitch, And revenge is a dish best served Cold"
First off all, its a debate about open PVP and not about the ingame funeral.
I started playing World of Warcraft for the 'War' in Warcraft. I really thought the game would be about the 2 factions fighting and capture enemy towns. In the end it wasn't even possible to have big battles because the servers could not handle it. To make things worse they have created battlegrounds to have battles and introduces DK's. Even the raids to x-roads are gone.
In the end I think no MMO can have big battles because of the server(s). The best game yet who has good PVP is EVE. The war there shapes the ingame world which MMO's should be all about, ever changing worlds!
My opinion on the particular situation you "debated" is simply this. Serenity Now, did nothing wrong, sure it was in poor taste but it wasnt "wrong".
If the mourning guild really wanted to celebrate their friends memory they would have chosen an appropriate zone, one of the non-contested zones. Any other choice on a PVP server is just down right foolish. In fact, if they would have chosen a non-contested zone for the ceremony they would truly have seen a proper show of respect as people from both factions would have shown up and paid respect. Any violations of the "truce" would necessarily have been their own faction, and therefore it would be themselves who were to blame, as indeed they were in this case.
PVP servers, are what they are, we who play on them know without a doubt where we are safe and where we are at risk. Appropriate consideration should have been given to this prior to the event so that any such hostile actions could be prevented. Indeed, lack of prior consideration is just as much a show of disrespect for the deceased as was the interrupting attack. And yes you are interpreting my reasoning correct if you come to the conclusion that such an attack was inevietable in this situation, if not during the actual ceremony it would have occured on the way there or right after on any pvp server. Face it, we kill the opposite faction as a matter of course, there is no emotion in it other than thrill.
At worst, the attacking guild can be accused of nothing more than oppertunistic, poor taste. The guild holding the event shares an equal share of any guilt/hate/anguish generated by the attack. It was thier advertising of the event that notified the enemy guild anyway...extremely poor judgement on a pvp server. What, honestly, did they expect? A PVP server is pretty much a total gank-fest from level 15-60, thats just the way it is.
Honor, or morality cannot be attached to any such fighting on a PVP server, you are implicitly consenting to cross-faction fighting the second you create a character on a PVP server. It is up to you to avoid fights if that is your desire, the other person is under no obligation to grant mercy, consideration or good will at any time on a PVP server. You are always fair game, and so are they, always.
-Gooney
I don't accept Serinity Now's rationaliziation that they "did it to encourage PvP." You can attach an agenda to any outrageous behavior. For example, there is a group of people who show up and cheer at rl funerals these days and hold up signs expressing how glad they are that the person is deceased. They have some screwed up "agenda" they claim to be promoting too. But all they are really promoting is hate and the sick thrill they get from being hated.
There was no excuse for these kids' behavior. Perhaps someday when they are old enough to experience the loss of a close family member they will recognize how wrongly they acted. The problem with people who aren't old enough to care about anything is that they oftentimes don't respect anything for that reason.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
i 2 wonder why some games are called heroic fantasy when u have to spend years finding even 1 hero (justifying that name by behaviour and morality) under thousands of griefers, thiefs and murderers ?
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Its important to seperate the instance from the issue. The situation itself simply illustrates the issue at hand, the debate is about the issue not the situation.
The issue is: Is there a moral component to player versus player gameplay on a specifically pvp server? I say, no there isnt. PVP servers exist for the explicit purpose of allowing a wider range of PVP encounters, more specifically free for all fighting in contested areas, areas belonging to neither faction.
In the specific issue at hand it is irrelevant that it was fundamentally a funeral service, indeed, it wouldnt matter if it was a funeral, bah mitzva, birthday party or coming out gala, none of those things take a moral precidence over the intrinsic consent for Player Versus Player gameplay.
It has already been explained that if the people in question had wanted to they could have held thier little gathering in faction controlled territory, which would make pvp attacks impossible. They chose not to do so, so any action is firmly thier responsibility, not the people who executed the attack.
There is no moral component between opposite factions on a pvp server. On a PVP server the burden of avoiding conflict rests SOLELY with the person wishing to avoid conflict.
-Gooney
The players attending the funeral service learned a hard lesson. Perhaps it's true that they should have known something like that could happen; afterall, it is that kind of server and I've never seen honor on any full PvP server. You need to learn early in life that the world is full of bullies and hypocrits and trust no one until you're sure you know them well.
It's actually a good thing that gankers/griefers are contained on their own servers. Don't enter if you want to avoid that kind of rifraf. Actually, I've known some really nice people who like full PvP, and they've tried to explain it to me. But then, they were the kind that didn't run around ganking players a lot lower than they were, either. and they certainly weren't the type to ruin a funeral. Behind those mourners were real life people who genuinely cared for the person who had left their guild. It never ceases to amaze me how little compassion people have for each other. It's no wonder we have eternal wars. Humans will never learn.
You say I'm wrong to compare games like this with real life? That games are only for fun? I disagree. I find that people are exactly what they really are while playing games, and not the hypocrits they pretend to be in real life. A bully with any other name still smells the same.
"Good against remotes, thats one thing, good against the living....thats something else" (Paraphrase of Han Solo).
I would say that a pvp server isnt an appropriate place for a funeral service period.
Real gankers and griefers rarely inhabit PVP servers...they get too much competition, the real griefers like to plague the carebear servers, thats where they can do real damage.
What exactly is hypocritical about playing on a PVP server? What is immoral about ganking? What is bullying in an environment where you have total and utter freedom to avoid any such bullies?
That you dont like PVP is one thing, that you dont like PVP servers is one thing, that you classify a huge portion of the population unjustly, that is something all together different.
That is hypocracy.
-Gooney
To be blunt, this article has very little, or anything to do with Open PvP at all.
However, if anyone ever holds an in-game funeral for me (which I sincerely hope they do not), I would find it highly amusing if a group decided to steamroll over the occasion
On a final note, it is never a good idea to compare in game ethics to any kind of real life equivalent...it's pretty self explanatory why they are totally different things.
I agree.
-Gooney
There are those that do not seem to pay attention to history nor have the morals to take pause for something so tragic as to rise way above any multi-million dollar a month cartoon, such as WoW. The offending guild should be banned, however this won't happen. I do believe every member of the guild should have names shown in ALL WoW forums. By doing this we make the offenders responsible. The did this for publicity. Fine! Let's allow them to be known. In doing this, they then accomplish the dastardly deed they set out to accomplish. Noone will party with them. They will be as infamous as Stalin and Hitler, as warm and fuzzy as Charles Mason, and about as palitable as three day old vomit.
I have no time nor do I care what happens to these reprobates. As far as I'm concerned, they have NO jobs, no girlfriends, no real life friends, and still wet their beds at night.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
It was pretty funny to see them drop like flies. But the funniest thing is that the guild ruined the event and the only thing the self-righteous people can do is name-call on the public forums. So what? They admitted that they were just being assholes. Like that's going to scare them. Some punishment.
Is it any different than raiding an NPC instance? The game with quests that teach you hate the other faction. Suddenly this real life event is supposed to join them together and ruin the atmosphere. Whose ruining who's game here? And people wonder why role-playing is non-existent. Here a guild role-plays as jerks and actually delivers, and the care-bears want them dead, in real life. Smell the irony, peace-lovers.
You are quite mistaken.
We are never challenged more in our ethical behavior than when we can "get away" with something. For example, look at the crime sprees you see in the wake of a natural disaster, with looting, rape, and murder. Why does that happen? Because people are suddenly in a position where they can get away with doing things they would otherwise be answerable for doing. You don't really know if you are an ethical person or not until you can choose right from wrong without any consequence other than the knowledge of what kind of person your behavior makes you.
If you go online and act like a jerk just because you can get away with it, don't think for a moment that doesn't reflect on your moral character or lack of it. You will not be punished - other than the knowledge that you are in fact an asshole.
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It is rather sad that some cannot distinguish between a game and real life. It is even sadder that the same lame "well it's a pvp server" arguments keep popping up. You hold the funeral on the server that person played on, just like in real life you hold the funeral where the person lived, not where they died.
People need to understand that there is a lline and when not to cross it. This wasn't about the hunter epic mob getting attacked by some random player, that's an ingame issue vs an ingame player. This was about a real world event (a funeral) that was ruined by ingame players just so they could ruin it. Someone of their guild even posted a video of it with the title "So we Pwned this Funeral LOL", which just shows how sorry they really were. If there were any hypocrites, they are in Serenity Now.
It was mentioned that real gankers/griefers don't attend pvp servers which I believe isn't correct. Numerous times I've heard of the hunter demon quest mob getting attacked for the sole reason to grief the hunter. STV has been referred to as Vietenam with all the 60 hunters sniping from the bushes, 60 rogues ganking at nessingway's, etc. Some (not all) pvpers do take on a bully attitude, but then rationalize it with "its a pvp server and they The Enemy" stance.
The reason so many people equate PvPer with Ganker, is that so many of them are just that. The fact that many pvpers didn't condemn Serenity Now implies that they condone what they did. I agree that the anonimity of the internet gave Serenity Now more courage, had they met these people in person I doubt they would of ran into the funeral home and caused a scene.
I also think that ganking gets people so upset is due to the same bully attitude. I mean, I want to pvp for the challenge. How is PKing someone half your level (or less) who has virtually zero chance of beating you proved your "leet skillz"? That's like playing a FPS in god mode, may be fun for a few minutes but gets boring quick.
I regularly play on PvP servers.... yet I don't gank. I'm enjoy the challenge of surviving, despite the ganking by others. I do bring my own morals and values into the game with me, but don't expect other players to do so.
While I wouldn't have ganked the people having the funeral, I fully support the right of the players who did so. As so many have said, its a game, and on a PvP server, its up to the players to enforce justice.
That doesn't make the gankers "bad" or "immoral" or heartless... it just means they enjoy killing cartoon characters within the confines of the rules.
Does it make me mad sometimes....sure... especially if I was close to achieving a particular goal. But I'm never going to want to tell people to restrict how they play their game....
This debate was poorly done, it really had nothing to do with the value of FFA Pvp.... and I hope future debates stay more topical.... this one was terrribly old news...
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You are quite mistaken.
We are never challenged more in our ethical behavior than when we can "get away" with something. For example, look at the crime sprees you see in the wake of a natural disaster, with looting, rape, and murder. Why does that happen? Because people are suddenly in a position where they can get away with doing things they would otherwise be answerable for doing. You don't really know if you are an ethical person or not until you can choose right from wrong without any consequence other than the knowledge of what kind of person your behavior makes you.
If you go online and act like a jerk just because you can get away with it, don't think for a moment that doesn't reflect on your moral character or lack of it. You will not be punished - other than the knowledge that you are in fact an asshole.
I completely disagree with you.
WoW is a Role-Playing game. If someone wants to play the role of an anti-social assassin who steals and kills at every opportunity, great! That's their choice. Part of the point of role-playing games is the ability to play different roles than you ever would in real life.
I don't like open PvP (and usually even avoid restricted PvP) but that's not relevant. If you hold an announced event in a public unprotected area on a PvP server, you must expect that there will be people playing roles such that they will attack you.
Was Serenity Now playing a role or just doing it because they could? I have no idea so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Yeah... It was in an ingame funeral Where an Alliance based guild which I believe is supposed to represent the good guys or something like that. Went on a killing spree.
Dispicable is all I have to say. You cannot justify bad sportmanship in anyway. Attacking an unarmed combatant is the same and shooting someone in the back. It is both cowardly and dishonorable.
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The best part of that video was the Scatman music...There is nothing like seeing people get killed to someone in the background going Be-Dat-Dat-Da-Do--Dat-Dat-Da-Do over and over again
Seriously though, the gankees were the one's who brought a real life event into the game and so they are responsable for what happened just as much as the gankers. It's not just WoW either...Imagine someone trying to hold a peaceful gather on Mordred.
I think Amathe misunderstood my statement about real life and games. I am absolutely not condoning what Serenity Now did. My point was that Serenity Now apparently couldn't separate an ingame mechanic (open pvp) and a real life event (funeral). So yes, calling me and laughing at my loss or sending disrepectful email would also be umm... inappropriate to put it mildly.
I bet even today, that in /gu chat Serenity Now probably still brags about it to themselves. People like that disgust me and are the minority gankers that give the majority pvpers a bad name.
Oh and sorry Amathe if I sounded like I was sympathizing with them. I definately was not nor was any of my post meant to be sympathic in any way to Serenity Now.
But still want to get my 2cents off.
As already stated, it's a game. Shall others stop playing it, because you and your friends want to do some peaceful event? Guess not.
Also people are dying everyday.. a lot of people, and as MMORPG are still on the rise, and a Mass-Market now, the players get older too. So even more dead gamers than ever before.
You want to hold a in-game funeral everytime a gamer has died?
I for one would still like to play the game, so if you must have some event like that, do it in an appropriate area. A PVP area is doomed to kill the event, and that's not exactly news... .
The whole topic is kind of stupid.. and the title misleading as I was expecting a real debate on open PvP and not this b######t.
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You are quite mistaken.
We are never challenged more in our ethical behavior than when we can "get away" with something. For example, look at the crime sprees you see in the wake of a natural disaster, with looting, rape, and murder. Why does that happen? Because people are suddenly in a position where they can get away with doing things they would otherwise be answerable for doing. You don't really know if you are an ethical person or not until you can choose right from wrong without any consequence other than the knowledge of what kind of person your behavior makes you.
If you go online and act like a jerk just because you can get away with it, don't think for a moment that doesn't reflect on your moral character or lack of it. You will not be punished - other than the knowledge that you are in fact an asshole.
Exactly right. The internet has become the modern day 'The Invisible Man'. No one knows who you really are. You suffer no consequences for your behavior once you log off the game, or onto an alt. Make no mistake though, those of you who log onto these online games and forums and glorify in being the biggest Ahole you can be, thats exactly what you are at the core.
I can emphasize with, if not support, Daimen7's senitment about violence. Sometimes I do wonder if people like the players of Serenity Now and others like them would learn some respect, or at least restraint, if their actions caused them to get skull dragged down the block a time or to.
I see little bearing on the announcement, if there was one, for the funeral. People say it was a taunt, or a dare. I say it was most likely exactly what it sounded like. A plea to be left alone while they had a ceremony for a lost friend.
They had it in a PvP zone. Poor planning? Or maybe they were holding it their friends favorite spot in the game, to make it as meaningful as possible? Regardless, people should have had the common decencey to leave them be for the ceremony.
Some of you claim the sanctity of the PvP server as reason enough to justify. But your PvP is meaningless. Whoever you kill comes back, you can't take and hold cities, the face of the game undergoes no changes due to your actions.
So refraining from one meaningless exercise in PvP changes nothing.
As to open PvP, I would agree that it *can* regulate griefers to an extent. It can also give griefers a wider range of targets.
I doubt we'll ever see truely meaningful PvP. On every server the horde seems to be outnumbered by at least 2 to 1. If sides were able to actually take and hold ground, The Horde would have been wiped out long ago, and then what's the point?
Comparing gankers to terroists is just sad!