Originally posted by noskul I disagree. $OE turns out expansions faster than any company I can think of. Lineage 2=free content Eve=free content. Need I go on? With EQ2, there are already what like 4 or 5 "adventure packs"? They are a joke. I'm calling $OE out, and I think the point remains valid. Even if $40 is not considered to be alot, which I agree it's not, the principle is what I am getting at. It's just not fun to play a game where the company is constantly in your pocket. We know when we sign on that it's going to be a monthly fee, but $OE is adding "pay for" content at least every 4-5 months on average. I subbed CoV while I wait for Vanguard. Guess what, cost me $20 and I got a month free. As a final note, what Sony is doing is NOT WORKING. EQ2 is a very solid and good game, and it's really struggling to keep its subs up (reference recent server merges). Maybe Sony will read this and figure out that the community has had it with their greed. Tell me this......What is $OE's reputation amoung gamers? I would say that they stand out for their greed. If you want evidence, go to the Vanguard forums and read the "We're angry about SOE thread". Like 100+ posts. EQ2, good game. Crappy company. SOE is never going to figure it out.
I'm no defender of SOE, but be careful with Vanguard. SOE is lurking there as well. Sure, at this point it's all in the hands of Sigil, but down the road, once the game is going, don't be surprised if SOE starts to exercise a lot of influence over where things are headed with that game as well. It's naive to think that SOE is going to be a purely passive partner with Sigil when it comes to Vanguard.
posts like these make me laugh. oO where to start?
for the record, im in no way telling you what to think or that your opinion is wrong. im only stating me own opinion.
$OE turns out expansions faster than any company I can think of. Lineage 2=free content Eve=free content. Need I go on? yes, please do. lol, those are about the only other p2p games that i can think of as well. Oo and btw, in both of those games, the monthly fee is more per month. ummm.....lets see, pay $20-40 once for an expansion pack, or pay $5 more per month for 12 months for said expansion pack? idk, thats a hard one. all others follow the same model as SOE. Square, Mythic, and two expansions for GW comes to mind.
With EQ2, there are already what like 4 or 5 "adventure packs"? three, actually, all optional.
but $OE is adding "pay for" content at least every 4-5 months on average. actually, the last expansion pack was a year ago, lol. and again "optional". WOW players are still waiting for their first expansion, and unless something changes the players will be paying for it.
Guess what, cost me $20 and I got a month free. $20=free? eh????
As a final note, what Sony is doing is NOT WORKING. EQ2 is a very solid and good game, and it's really struggling to keep its subs up (reference recent server merges). Maybe Sony will read this and figure out that the community has had it with their greed. i bet the many people that have played EQII from launch would disagree with the assessment that its "NOT WORKING". the most recent and only server merge was several months ago and it was not because of lack of people, they made some of the servers PVP and such, plenty of documentation available, please dont take just me word for it. and im sure that all companies hear about how greedy they are, funny as it is, they still somehow manage to make a profit, lol.
Tell me this......What is $OE's reputation amoung gamers? divided. some love SoE and some dont. just like every game company out there.
"We're angry about SOE thread". Like 100+ posts. i wonder how many of those posts are defending SOE. EQII also has a "We're angry about SOE thread" and theres only 58 posts in it. and yes, ive read all of them. the SOE haters post with this, "SOE sux". wow, thats hard to reason with, eh? then you got the other side of the camp that argue back. and before all is said and done, you have 2-5 people that are no longer talking about SOE, but insulting each others mothers. yep, your right, people must hate SOE (sarcasm intentional).
I'm no defender of SOE, but be careful with Vanguard. SOE is lurking there as well. Sure, at this point it's all in the hands of Sigil, but down the road, once the game is going, don't be surprised if SOE starts to exercise a lot of influence over where things are headed with that game as well. It's naive to think that SOE is going to be a purely passive partner with Sigil when it comes to Vanguard.
no doubt you believe that all the changes in SWG were directly influenced by SOE, right? plenty of documentation to debunk this view as well, so i wont go into it.
bottomline............... what? this is the bottomline. thats all, just felt like i should add one.
Originally posted by noskul I disagree. $OE turns out expansions faster than any company I can think of. Lineage 2=free content Eve=free content. Need I go on? Who cares, expansions = more content, i can afford it. If you cant tough bloody luck. And only the third expansion to be released in two years is not that fast. With EQ2, there are already what like 4 or 5 "adventure packs"? They are a joke. Make that 3, and two of them were great, one was, ill admit pretty lame. I'm calling $OE out, and I think the point remains valid. Even if $40 is not considered to be alot, which I agree it's not, the principle is what I am getting at. It's just not fun to play a game where the company is constantly in your pocket. We know when we sign on that it's going to be a monthly fee, but $OE is adding "pay for" content at least every 4-5 months on average. So friggin what, we still get free content every month via our live updates, but i dont give a rats ass if im paying for an expansion or an adventure pack every 4 months. I subbed CoV while I wait for Vanguard. Guess what, cost me $20 and I got a month free. Good for you but you got ripped off. You can get EQ2 now for under $10, and guess what you get a free month. I think that deal sounds better than your CoV deal. As a final note, what Sony is doing is NOT WORKING. EQ2 is a very solid and good game, and it's really struggling to keep its subs up (reference recent server merges). Recent??? That was ages ago. Subs are fine. Maybe Sony will read this and figure out that the community has had it with their greed. Dont count on it bud, your in the minority. And if you want to talk greed, i would say Blizzard is a tad more greedy than SOE. Blizzard are so up themselves from rolling in the cash they have made that they couldnt even be bothered to get an expansion out until now when subs started dropping. At least SOE are providing the long time players with new stuff to do. Tell me this......What is $OE's reputation amoung gamers? I would say that they stand out for their greed. If you want evidence, go to the Vanguard forums and read the "We're angry about SOE thread". Like 100+ posts. And that as we all know has nothing to do with EQ2 at all but all to do with SWG. Same company, sure, different employees though. EQ2, good game. Smartest thing you have said.
Originally posted by PlanoMM $OE turns out expansions faster than any company I can think of. Lineage 2=free content Eve=free content. Need I go on? yes, please do. lol, those are about the only other p2p games that i can think of as well. Oo and btw, in both of those games, the monthly fee is more per month. ummm.....lets see, pay $20-40 once for an expansion pack, or pay $5 more per month for 12 months for said expansion pack? idk, thats a hard one. all others follow the same model as SOE. Square, Mythic, and two expansions for GW comes to mind.
Originally posted by PlanoMM $OE turns out expansions faster than any company I can think of. Lineage 2=free content Eve=free content. Need I go on? yes, please do. lol, those are about the only other p2p games that i can think of as well. Oo and btw, in both of those games, the monthly fee is more per month. ummm.....lets see, pay $20-40 once for an expansion pack, or pay $5 more per month for 12 months for said expansion pack? idk, thats a hard one. all others follow the same model as SOE. Square, Mythic, and two expansions for GW comes to mind.
thank you. except that Runescape is f2p and you cant honestly tell me that you consider it to EQII or (lol) any other decent game. Ryzoms going down, nuff said. btw, its not that great (dodges the incoming bullets). Toontown? lmao, kk. that leaves Asheron's Call, CoV, and CoH. two of which are actually marketed by the same company, so to me, they count as one. i dont know anything about Asheron's Call. and ive played just about every MMO out there. so........ummmm......... well, you draw your own conclusions there.
so out of all the games on the market, youve named 4 that can actually be taken seriously. no offense, but i think that me point stands. most popular games and companies follow the SoE model set forth. Pay for each expansion pack for FFXI, then come tell me about greed. btw, in case you dont know, FFXI did exactly the same thing when they released their last expansion. the same exact thing that SOE did with EOF. and you know what, people complained about it then too. lol.
I don't get why people are complaining. You don't have to buy the expansions if you don't want to. Also, you get monthly updates. People always toss out EVE as having "free expansions." That's bologna. Those things that CCP calls expansions are nothing more than 6 months worth of patches, that everyone else gives out free also, rolled into one. I'd much rather get monthly updates than wait 6 months for stuff that could be rolled out monthly.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
Originally posted by TookyG I don't get why people are complaining. You don't have to buy the expansions if you don't want to. Also, you get monthly updates. People always toss out EVE as having "free expansions." That's bologna. Those things that CCP calls expansions are nothing more than 6 months worth of patches, that everyone else gives out free also, rolled into one. I'd much rather get monthly updates than wait 6 months for stuff that could be rolled out monthly.
you had me until you diss on EVE, lol. j/k, but seriously, having played several months of EVE, i can honestly say they have done a hella job on the game with expansions and such. but this is for another topic. /end topic hijack
Originally posted by TookyG I don't get why people are complaining......
I'll tell you why I am complaining. because every MMORPG out there is the same, it revolves around the grind. You can solo the grind, group the grind, or raid the grind, but you are going to grind, like it or not. Solo content does not have to be about the grind, it can be adventure oriented. Allow an EQ 2 assassin to be a member of an NPC controlled assassin's guild, and obtain contracts to fullfil an adventure. Allow a brigand to actually receive an adventure to break into someplace, and steal something. In the begining, these were class quests, now long gone. The difference between classes now is that you get to hit different buttons as you grind like everyone else. Raid content could be mixed with PvP content, to allow guild conflict, castle sieges, etc like the Korean MMORPGs. When you join a raid group you are notified that you are now consenting to PvP. You can take your raid group into the Oakmist Forest and take on challenging raid groups if you like. You can also go on a raid, and be wary if another raid group shows up in a raid zone. Solo, and group players cannot be attacked by PvP raid groups. Basically, what I am saying, is rather than play one facet of the game that revolves entirely around the grind, allow players to experience the multi facets of fantasy gaming from within the same game, and not through protected servers. Maybe one day I log in and have time for a solo experience, maybe one day I feel like the group grind, and maybe one day I feel like some PvP. Right now the MMORPGs out on the market do not allow a player to make this decision. All these games are is about grind, level, and phat loot. There is no content, no storyline, no adventure to keep a players interest, they soon burn out on the grind and start looking elsewhere for something fresh and different. But there is nothing fresh and different out there. It's like starting a fairy tail off with "once upon a time", then detailing how many snakes, beetles, and other things the hero has to kill, and then ending with "they lived happily ever after". There is nothing of substance in between.
SOE is a major player in the MMORPG industry. You keep telling them your happy with your Big Mac without the special sauce, and they will keep serving you the Big Mac without the special sauce. You don't improve a gameplay experience by fanbois continually purchasing mindless drivel, you improve it by voicing your displeasure until they get the message and deliver a better product. SOE has the ability to deliver that better product, so start demanding it.
olddaddy, you really seem to hate EQ2. Why are you playing it? If you're not playing it, then isn't it time to move on instead of harp and harpy on it on their game forums?
See, I hate WoW with an unbridled passion, but I don't go on their forums just to cause trouble. That would make me a troll. Now you're not doing that... are you?
As a final note, what Sony is doing is NOT WORKING. EQ2 is a very solid and good game, and it's really struggling to keep its subs up (reference recent server merges). Maybe Sony will read this and figure out that the community has had it with their greed. i bet the many people that have played EQII from launch would disagree with the assessment that its "NOT WORKING". the most recent and only server merge was several months ago and it was not because of lack of people, they made some of the servers PVP and such, plenty of documentation available, please dont take just me word for it. and im sure that all companies hear about how greedy they are, funny as it is, they still somehow manage to make a profit, lol.
We've been attracting more and more people over the past months. That's one of the big factors that went into our decision to spend time improving the progression for new characters. We've been getting a lot of feedback on it, improving it as we go, and we look forward to it going live this week as a part of Update 19!
There's another topic we've been listening on that I wanted to talk about today. Server growth, and the perception of the size of the worlds.
In reality most of our 36 US, Europe, and Asia EQ2 servers currently house the same number of people as your average server from any MMO. Because of the size of our game world, some of the worlds feel less full than they should for them be ideal, fun places to play.
When we first started out, EQ2 had 369 total zones or instances of zones. The game has since expanded to having over 600 of them, just about doubling the playable space.
On some worlds, it can seem like there are fewer people to make friends and group with, fewer opportunities to bump into others. Nothing makes a world feel more alive than other people. When you don't run into enough other people, folks who otherwise love the game are more likely to drift away.
It's no secret. It's a problem that's been discussed on a few of the server forums, and it's one that we've been spending quite a bit of time thinking about as well.
Over the next few weeks, we're going to do something that might seem counterintuitive on the surface for a growing game, and combine a few of our existing servers reinvesting in the ones that remain.
Some people who don't play EQ2 will have bad things to say about this move. Yes, this is a controversial decision, but our primary concern has to be making sure that the worlds are all healthy, fun places to play for the people who enjoy playing EQ2.
Let me say that again:
Our existing players are our number one concern. Providing a good game experience for you is infinitely more important to us than anything else, including what this move will undoubtedly prompt outsiders to say. In time that will pass, and we'll all still be here playing and working on an EQ2 that has server communities that are much better prepared for the bright future in store for them.
Originally posted by Moirae olddaddy, you really seem to hate EQ2. Why are you playing it? If you're not playing it, then isn't it time to move on instead of harp and harpy on it on their game forums?
See, I hate WoW with an unbridled passion, but I don't go on their forums just to cause trouble. That would make me a troll. Now you're not doing that... are you?
I do not hate EQ 2 with a passion, what I want is SOE to take the game to the next higher level, not dumb it down. You really seem to be a raving fanboi, saying everything is okay, don't bother to raise the bar in EQ 2, just keep it the same. Tell me, what is wrong wanting the solo content to include adventure experience in addition to the grinding, are you afraid of the introduction of an adventure experience? What is wrong with expanding the raid experience to include PvP, are you afraid of PvP? Why do you want to play in a protected bubble, logging in and doing the same grind time after time? Because that is exactly what every MMORPG is right now. No developer is going to raise the bar as long as the player base says everything is just ducky. You call what I am doing trolling, I call it constructive criticism. trolling is when no alternative is presented.
EQ 2 used to include adventure experience in the class/subclass quests. You feel eliminating the adventure experience is a good thing? I feel eliminating the class/subclass quests acceptable, as long as the adventure quests are redesigned, maintained, and expanded in the game. You seem to have a very parochial minded view that only what you like in a game is acceptable, and that anyone that disagrees with your parochial viewpoint is a threat. You want the truth, the raw truth? I have read your posts, I don't think you have the intellect to realize that the game can be improved, taken to the next level, in a truly significant manner. You are happy with the little bells and whistles that SOE hands out to placate the masses, things like grinding different types of squirrels in different zones, being awarded firecrackers, or pet monkeys, for being a subscriber a certain period of time, or for buying the latest expansion, and you feel threatened by any suggestion of a meanful change that will take this product to the next level.
Ok, Moirae, actually read Olddaddys post about why hes complaining. hes right, man. the ideas that he expressed in that post are great. thats exactly what i want. thats what all of us want, or we wouldnt even bother logging into a game in the first place. sure the grind satisfies for a while, but then you start to realize all the little things that you wish were different. the things and ideas that you would implement if you were a designer. they slowly start to grow till you realize that the daily grind is just that, a grind. im not at that point yet in EQII, but i can certainly say without a doubt that in several months i would be. its normal. what olddaddy is suggesting is just what we all wish games like this had, new and fresh content daily. i dont like the fact that the quests that im doing now, someone else has already done (more than once in most cases). i wanna feel original, and like im important to the virtual world, not just because im giving them me money monthly. but because what i do ingame actually makes a real and tangible difference to something. right now, what does it matter if i get to lvl 70 in EQII. big deal. most players have at least 2 lvl 70s by now, some have alot more than that. it means nothing. this is the model of just about every MMO out. Olddaddy is not attacking EQII in specific, hes simply pointing out a known and accepted truth to most of us oldtimers that have been around since the MUD days. like i said, right now, EQII is not a grind for me. why? because ive learned how to slow the process down and maximize me enjoyment for as long as i can. i can go days on end without gaining a single point of exp. me char is still lvl 25, for gods sake. 3 1/2 months in and im still 25. if that isnt slow than im afraid i dont know what is. me point is that you shouldnt jump to the conclusions about someone until you can effectively put yourself into their shoes and decide how you would approach the situation. and like Olddaddy, i feel like the current MMO model is way too dumbed down and grindy. why do you think that most online gamers only play a game for about 3-6 months and then go look for a different one? this is not always the case, but for the majority, it is. ask people in these forums how many MMOs theyve played, and i bet that not one of them would say only one. i doubt very much that the number of MMOs that theyve played is less than 5. why do you think that the average life expectantacy of a MMO is only 3-5 yrs? because even the slower gamers like me will eventually run through all the content and walk away. thats why they add expansions, to keep your attention for a bit longer.
but what if......and stay with me here......like olddaddy said, they put quests in place that are different everytime you do it. a living breathing quest system, a living breathing economy controlled not by who has the best raid gear, but relagated by checks and balances. i know that im going to be accused of advertising here, but im hoping that Vanguard is going to change the current MMO model. seriously, the best gear in game isnt going to be only attainable by raiders, some of the best gear is going to be attainable by diplomats, some by crafters. checks and balances. you wont have raiders that drive up the price of a piece of equipment because theyre the only ones that can get it. why? you ask. because theyre going to be dependent on crafters for certain raiding equipment, and dependent on diplomats to work out certain deals so that they can get certain equipment.
anyway, sorry to get off topic. but thats what i got out of olddaddys post, and thats what i want. no, i long for in an online game.
SOE greed shows up with the Adventure Packs. Back in EQ1 they had very little in the way of free content patches, they just spammed out expansions. Now they decide that's not a good idea so we'll have content patches but charge a Fee! Then the basic online info actually requires another fee?? Yeah like I'd pay an xtra $1 to look up stats on a pair of pants.
So I think the Packs should be free, or at the very least free for all after X days. Let the impatient people fork up $5 so they can get the Sword of Uberness before anyone else.
Since EoF is bundled with other expansions it should come with a free month attached. That way they can entice people to return, instead of double charging them (subscription + expansion cost).
Originally posted by DrowNoble SOE greed shows up with the Adventure Packs. Back in EQ1 they had very little in the way of free content patches, they just spammed out expansions. Now they decide that's not a good idea so we'll have content patches but charge a Fee! Then the basic online info actually requires another fee?? Yeah like I'd pay an xtra $1 to look up stats on a pair of pants. So I think the Packs should be free, or at the very least free for all after X days. Let the impatient people fork up $5 so they can get the Sword of Uberness before anyone else. Since EoF is bundled with other expansions it should come with a free month attached. That way they can entice people to return, instead of double charging them (subscription + expansion cost).
i believe it does. need someone else to confirm it, but i believe it does come with a free month attached.
Plano, you and I both know that what you're both talking about isn't going to happen any time soon. Not so long as everyone thinks WoW is the be all and end all of all games.
Originally posted by Moirae Plano, you and I both know that what you're both talking about isn't going to happen any time soon. Not so long as everyone thinks WoW is the be all and end all of all games.
Get of your WOW fixation. Firstoff, I have never played WOW, and never will. What I am looking for in a game is so far past WOW..., well, obviously that you can not comprehend. Second, WOW has brought thousands of people into the MMORPG market, people who may never have been here if it wasn't for WOW. The fact that they are burning out on WOW and turning to EQ 2 is a good sign, it means they are developing their taste. WOW no longer satisfies their entertainment needs, and they want something more, just like veteran MMORG'ers want something more. WOW is an introductory product. It is also marketing power. Marketing power we, the gamers, can either use, or abuse.
Once these WOW players analyze why they are burning out, just like many of us veterans have, they will hit the forums with their frustrations and their suggestions. That also is a good thing, the more voices demanding more will eventually force the hardened corporate MMORPG developers to sit up and think outside the box. Right now, they have no need to listen to their customer base, no need to think, all they have to do is grind out the latest rehash every 6 months to make money. And in baiting critcism by labeling people trolls you are pandering to the think inside the box mentality of the corporate money machine. Rather than rant as a fanboi, try constructively engaging critics. See if they have any good ideas, and get these ideas out onto the forums.
There will never be a change in the tried and true grind formula unless we, the players, speak out and tell them what we are looking for. Whether you like, or dislike, SOE, they are a major player in the industry, and have the capabilities to take the lead, and set the bar higher. Same with Blizzard. Hold them accountable to do so.
Now let me give you an example of the solo play I would like to see included with the solo grind....
You are an assassin, you go to your NPC assassin's guild, and get a contract to kill a mercenary leader in a dungeon. Since it is a solo quest, you change out of your metal armor, don your assassins cloth outfit that increases your stealth attribute, and head on into an instanced zone in which you are the only player. You sneak foreward down the corridors, moving from the right wall to the left to get that peak around the corner, arrow notched in case you run into anything. You know that in the solo content instanced zone the combat system has changed, and one bowshot can be one kill. Likewise, you know that, in your cloth armor, a metalled up tank is going to eat you alive. Combat is quick and deadly here, unlike the group/raid experience.
Around a corner you see three sentries talking. Everything is ungrouped, mano a mano in here. You know that to shoot now will bring the other two charging down on you, and you will not survive. You wait patiently, listening to the conversation for tidbits about the mercenary leader you need to kill, two minutes passes, then sentry three walks away. Still not a good time for a shot. 45 seconds later, sentry two walks across the room. Is it far enough you ask youself, do I dare the shot? 30 seconds more passes, and sentry one starts to cross the room. Shit, you think, I can't see sentry two, I have no idea where sentry three is, no time, loose the arrow, quickly renotch. Sentry one drops, one shot, one kill, no shout of alarm. You breathe, one down two to go, and move to the edge of the corridor, peering into the room. Crap, there's sentry three, metal armor and shield, two to three arrows needed, can't miss or I'm meat.
Using stealth and shadows to move deeper into the room, where's sentry two? There he is, just opposite sentry three, one shot, one kill, but too close to sentry three. Slip back toward sentry three, crap, he's moving toward me, crap, forcing me to move into sentry two. Arrow still notched, you use stealth to move away from sentry three, toward sentry two. How close can I get before being seen? Is there enough distance yet to get the shot off without alerting sentry three? Crap, it's now or never...you loose, hit, one shot, one kill, no alarm. Now, only sentry three to stalk....
This is the drift of what I want to see as solo content in a MMORPG. EQ 2 was on the verge of this breakthrough in the class/subclass quest system, then they walked away from it and increased the grind experience instead. Solo experience that keeps the player on the edge of his/her seat. Think....am I making the right, or the wrong, decision? Doing a quest that no other class in the game can do. This is similiar to a quest from Oblivion, why not also a quest from EQ 2 developers? Why not?
*chuckles*, I've got to hand it to guys, debateing Free Content, and how bad SOE is, truth of the matter is, we are all here to play, regardless of who is makeing profits, or, not.
In 1 topic, a player mentioned there isn't one game that doesn't have the grind, truth is Eve doesn't have the grind, other than to make isk, your skills are derived from time, so, your not grinding there, plus, its got tons of solo content, as for other games, I've played COV, SWG, WOW, and several others and I found that I enjoyed the grind, but, in small doses.
I'm not smashing your arguements, or, praiseing them, but, to be honest, I've never will hold up the gold crown to SOE, I enjoyed SWG, and, once they began to screw the customers out of the origional game play, and the squed the numbers to thier likeing, and, banned posts that were dislikeing, that even killed thier reputation even further. And, please, the topic about SOE not doing all the content changes to SWG, that was indeed bogus, SOE was the sole responsible contributor to the new content, they even said so, especially after LA allowed them to go ahead with the changes, Trust me, I was on the test server the day the leading developer declared his resignation after actually viewing the new content in full action. He wasn't happy about it at all, and, that was the true reason why he resigned, especially when SOE gave him the ultimateium. of either staying with the new content or leaveing.
Originally posted by olddaddy Now let me give you an example of the solo play I would like to see included with the solo grind.... You are an assassin, you go to your NPC assassin's guild, and get a contract to kill a mercenary leader in a dungeon. Since it is a solo quest, you change out of your metal armor, don your assassins cloth outfit that increases your stealth attribute, and head on into an instanced zone in which you are the only player. You sneak foreward down the corridors, moving from the right wall to the left to get that peak around the corner, arrow notched in case you run into anything. You know that in the solo content instanced zone the combat system has changed, and one bowshot can be one kill. Likewise, you know that, in your cloth armor, a metalled up tank is going to eat you alive. Combat is quick and deadly here, unlike the group/raid experience. Around a corner you see three sentries talking. Everything is ungrouped, mano a mano in here. You know that to shoot now will bring the other two charging down on you, and you will not survive. You wait patiently, listening to the conversation for tidbits about the mercenary leader you need to kill, two minutes passes, then sentry three walks away. Still not a good time for a shot. 45 seconds later, sentry two walks across the room. Is it far enough you ask youself, do I dare the shot? 30 seconds more passes, and sentry one starts to cross the room. Shit, you think, I can't see sentry two, I have no idea where sentry three is, no time, loose the arrow, quickly renotch. Sentry one drops, one shot, one kill, no shout of alarm. You breathe, one down two to go, and move to the edge of the corridor, peering into the room. Crap, there's sentry three, metal armor and shield, two to three arrows needed, can't miss or I'm meat. Using stealth and shadows to move deeper into the room, where's sentry two? There he is, just opposite sentry three, one shot, one kill, but too close to sentry three. Slip back toward sentry three, crap, he's moving toward me, crap, forcing me to move into sentry two. Arrow still notched, you use stealth to move away from sentry three, toward sentry two. How close can I get before being seen? Is there enough distance yet to get the shot off without alerting sentry three? Crap, it's now or never...you loose, hit, one shot, one kill, no alarm. Now, only sentry three to stalk.... This is the drift of what I want to see as solo content in a MMORPG. EQ 2 was on the verge of this breakthrough in the class/subclass quest system, then they walked away from it and increased the grind experience instead. Solo experience that keeps the player on the edge of his/her seat. Think....am I making the right, or the wrong, decision? Doing a quest that no other class in the game can do. This is similiar to a quest from Oblivion, why not also a quest from EQ 2 developers? Why not?
Yeah i remember those quests. My (now) Swashie had to do his class quest to become a Rogue at lvl 10 which involved sneaking into a mansion and stealing something. Was actually well thought out too as at one point to make it past some guards you had to watch them carefully until they turned away so you could sneak past unoticed.
Olddaddy: i would love to play a game that had content like that.
Baxslash: EVE is still a grind. mining for hrs and hrs on end waiting for the skills to increase and to make isk, is exactly what i would call grind. lets see, double click rock #1, start mining lasers, stare at screen watching for bandits and other pirates for 15 min. until either cargo bay is full or rock is depleted. find another rock and repeat. then warp back to station, change ships, take freighter back and pick up minerals and warp back to station, do that until you have all minerals in station. stand up and stretch your legs, smooth out the butt impression you left in the seat, then sit back down and repeat. definition of grind.
now EVE has the potential that no other game has for original content. and no doubt that some of the richer players prolly dont grind. hell, theyre the ones issuing out the grind missions. but after getting the same kill these pirates at this loc. that are only there for you to kill (thats their only purpose), for that 100th time you start to feel that what you do doesnt make any real difference. some of the quests are pretty original though. in any case, i quit that game after about a year because as a casual player, i couldnt compete with the core gamers that were in the richer guilds. i was in a good guild, but not very active. our leader had like 500 billion isk in the bank, and i was scraping by with a million if i was lucky, that was a good wk. i tried the pvp, i tried the mining. i tried the questing. same ol' same old. day in and day out.
and yes, SOE put the changes into SWG, but they were LucasArts changes. theres plenty of documentation on this. Oo and just so you know, every company makes changes to the games that they have, some are bad. talk to the FFXI fanbase for referance.
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posts like these make me laugh. oO where to start?
for the record, im in no way telling you what to think or that your opinion is wrong. im only stating me own opinion.
$OE turns out expansions faster than any company I can think of. Lineage 2=free content Eve=free content. Need I go on? yes, please do. lol, those are about the only other p2p games that i can think of as well. Oo and btw, in both of those games, the monthly fee is more per month. ummm.....lets see, pay $20-40 once for an expansion pack, or pay $5 more per month for 12 months for said expansion pack? idk, thats a hard one. all others follow the same model as SOE. Square, Mythic, and two expansions for GW comes to mind.
With EQ2, there are already what like 4 or 5 "adventure packs"? three, actually, all optional.
but $OE is adding "pay for" content at least every 4-5 months on average. actually, the last expansion pack was a year ago, lol. and again "optional". WOW players are still waiting for their first expansion, and unless something changes the players will be paying for it.
Guess what, cost me $20 and I got a month free. $20=free? eh????
As a final note, what Sony is doing is NOT WORKING. EQ2 is a very solid and good game, and it's really struggling to keep its subs up (reference recent server merges). Maybe Sony will read this and figure out that the community has had it with their greed. i bet the many people that have played EQII from launch would disagree with the assessment that its "NOT WORKING". the most recent and only server merge was several months ago and it was not because of lack of people, they made some of the servers PVP and such, plenty of documentation available, please dont take just me word for it. and im sure that all companies hear about how greedy they are, funny as it is, they still somehow manage to make a profit, lol.
Tell me this......What is $OE's reputation amoung gamers? divided. some love SoE and some dont. just like every game company out there.
"We're angry about SOE thread". Like 100+ posts. i wonder how many of those posts are defending SOE. EQII also has a "We're angry about SOE thread" and theres only 58 posts in it. and yes, ive read all of them. the SOE haters post with this, "SOE sux". wow, thats hard to reason with, eh? then you got the other side of the camp that argue back. and before all is said and done, you have 2-5 people that are no longer talking about SOE, but insulting each others mothers. yep, your right, people must hate SOE (sarcasm intentional).
I'm no defender of SOE, but be careful with Vanguard. SOE is lurking there as well. Sure, at this point it's all in the hands of Sigil, but down the road, once the game is going, don't be surprised if SOE starts to exercise a lot of influence over where things are headed with that game as well. It's naive to think that SOE is going to be a purely passive partner with Sigil when it comes to Vanguard.
no doubt you believe that all the changes in SWG were directly influenced by SOE, right? plenty of documentation to debunk this view as well, so i wont go into it.
bottomline............... what? this is the bottomline. thats all, just felt like i should add one.
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thank you. except that Runescape is f2p and you cant honestly tell me that you consider it to EQII or (lol) any other decent game. Ryzoms going down, nuff said. btw, its not that great (dodges the incoming bullets). Toontown? lmao, kk. that leaves Asheron's Call, CoV, and CoH. two of which are actually marketed by the same company, so to me, they count as one. i dont know anything about Asheron's Call. and ive played just about every MMO out there. so........ummmm......... well, you draw your own conclusions there.
so out of all the games on the market, youve named 4 that can actually be taken seriously. no offense, but i think that me point stands. most popular games and companies follow the SoE model set forth. Pay for each expansion pack for FFXI, then come tell me about greed. btw, in case you dont know, FFXI did exactly the same thing when they released their last expansion. the same exact thing that SOE did with EOF. and you know what, people complained about it then too. lol.
seriously, toontown, lmao.
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I don't get why people are complaining. You don't have to buy the expansions if you don't want to. Also, you get monthly updates. People always toss out EVE as having "free expansions." That's bologna. Those things that CCP calls expansions are nothing more than 6 months worth of patches, that everyone else gives out free also, rolled into one. I'd much rather get monthly updates than wait 6 months for stuff that could be rolled out monthly.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
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I'll tell you why I am complaining. because every MMORPG out there is the same, it revolves around the grind. You can solo the grind, group the grind, or raid the grind, but you are going to grind, like it or not. Solo content does not have to be about the grind, it can be adventure oriented. Allow an EQ 2 assassin to be a member of an NPC controlled assassin's guild, and obtain contracts to fullfil an adventure. Allow a brigand to actually receive an adventure to break into someplace, and steal something. In the begining, these were class quests, now long gone. The difference between classes now is that you get to hit different buttons as you grind like everyone else. Raid content could be mixed with PvP content, to allow guild conflict, castle sieges, etc like the Korean MMORPGs. When you join a raid group you are notified that you are now consenting to PvP. You can take your raid group into the Oakmist Forest and take on challenging raid groups if you like. You can also go on a raid, and be wary if another raid group shows up in a raid zone. Solo, and group players cannot be attacked by PvP raid groups. Basically, what I am saying, is rather than play one facet of the game that revolves entirely around the grind, allow players to experience the multi facets of fantasy gaming from within the same game, and not through protected servers. Maybe one day I log in and have time for a solo experience, maybe one day I feel like the group grind, and maybe one day I feel like some PvP. Right now the MMORPGs out on the market do not allow a player to make this decision. All these games are is about grind, level, and phat loot. There is no content, no storyline, no adventure to keep a players interest, they soon burn out on the grind and start looking elsewhere for something fresh and different. But there is nothing fresh and different out there. It's like starting a fairy tail off with "once upon a time", then detailing how many snakes, beetles, and other things the hero has to kill, and then ending with "they lived happily ever after". There is nothing of substance in between.
SOE is a major player in the MMORPG industry. You keep telling them your happy with your Big Mac without the special sauce, and they will keep serving you the Big Mac without the special sauce. You don't improve a gameplay experience by fanbois continually purchasing mindless drivel, you improve it by voicing your displeasure until they get the message and deliver a better product. SOE has the ability to deliver that better product, so start demanding it.
See, I hate WoW with an unbridled passion, but I don't go on their forums just to cause trouble. That would make me a troll. Now you're not doing that... are you?
Well, SoE will come out with another marketing offer if you just want to wait a little longer.
If the current offer isn't appealing, then maybe you are not ready to return.
Personnally I will never return to EQ2, even if my mom told me to never say never.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I do not hate EQ 2 with a passion, what I want is SOE to take the game to the next higher level, not dumb it down. You really seem to be a raving fanboi, saying everything is okay, don't bother to raise the bar in EQ 2, just keep it the same. Tell me, what is wrong wanting the solo content to include adventure experience in addition to the grinding, are you afraid of the introduction of an adventure experience? What is wrong with expanding the raid experience to include PvP, are you afraid of PvP? Why do you want to play in a protected bubble, logging in and doing the same grind time after time? Because that is exactly what every MMORPG is right now. No developer is going to raise the bar as long as the player base says everything is just ducky. You call what I am doing trolling, I call it constructive criticism. trolling is when no alternative is presented.
EQ 2 used to include adventure experience in the class/subclass quests. You feel eliminating the adventure experience is a good thing? I feel eliminating the class/subclass quests acceptable, as long as the adventure quests are redesigned, maintained, and expanded in the game. You seem to have a very parochial minded view that only what you like in a game is acceptable, and that anyone that disagrees with your parochial viewpoint is a threat. You want the truth, the raw truth? I have read your posts, I don't think you have the intellect to realize that the game can be improved, taken to the next level, in a truly significant manner. You are happy with the little bells and whistles that SOE hands out to placate the masses, things like grinding different types of squirrels in different zones, being awarded firecrackers, or pet monkeys, for being a subscriber a certain period of time, or for buying the latest expansion, and you feel threatened by any suggestion of a meanful change that will take this product to the next level.
Ok, Moirae, actually read Olddaddys post about why hes complaining. hes right, man. the ideas that he expressed in that post are great. thats exactly what i want. thats what all of us want, or we wouldnt even bother logging into a game in the first place. sure the grind satisfies for a while, but then you start to realize all the little things that you wish were different. the things and ideas that you would implement if you were a designer. they slowly start to grow till you realize that the daily grind is just that, a grind. im not at that point yet in EQII, but i can certainly say without a doubt that in several months i would be. its normal. what olddaddy is suggesting is just what we all wish games like this had, new and fresh content daily. i dont like the fact that the quests that im doing now, someone else has already done (more than once in most cases). i wanna feel original, and like im important to the virtual world, not just because im giving them me money monthly. but because what i do ingame actually makes a real and tangible difference to something. right now, what does it matter if i get to lvl 70 in EQII. big deal. most players have at least 2 lvl 70s by now, some have alot more than that. it means nothing. this is the model of just about every MMO out. Olddaddy is not attacking EQII in specific, hes simply pointing out a known and accepted truth to most of us oldtimers that have been around since the MUD days. like i said, right now, EQII is not a grind for me. why? because ive learned how to slow the process down and maximize me enjoyment for as long as i can. i can go days on end without gaining a single point of exp. me char is still lvl 25, for gods sake. 3 1/2 months in and im still 25. if that isnt slow than im afraid i dont know what is. me point is that you shouldnt jump to the conclusions about someone until you can effectively put yourself into their shoes and decide how you would approach the situation. and like Olddaddy, i feel like the current MMO model is way too dumbed down and grindy. why do you think that most online gamers only play a game for about 3-6 months and then go look for a different one? this is not always the case, but for the majority, it is. ask people in these forums how many MMOs theyve played, and i bet that not one of them would say only one. i doubt very much that the number of MMOs that theyve played is less than 5. why do you think that the average life expectantacy of a MMO is only 3-5 yrs? because even the slower gamers like me will eventually run through all the content and walk away. thats why they add expansions, to keep your attention for a bit longer.
but what if......and stay with me here......like olddaddy said, they put quests in place that are different everytime you do it. a living breathing quest system, a living breathing economy controlled not by who has the best raid gear, but relagated by checks and balances. i know that im going to be accused of advertising here, but im hoping that Vanguard is going to change the current MMO model. seriously, the best gear in game isnt going to be only attainable by raiders, some of the best gear is going to be attainable by diplomats, some by crafters. checks and balances. you wont have raiders that drive up the price of a piece of equipment because theyre the only ones that can get it. why? you ask. because theyre going to be dependent on crafters for certain raiding equipment, and dependent on diplomats to work out certain deals so that they can get certain equipment.
anyway, sorry to get off topic. but thats what i got out of olddaddys post, and thats what i want. no, i long for in an online game.
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SOE greed shows up with the Adventure Packs. Back in EQ1 they had very little in the way of free content patches, they just spammed out expansions. Now they decide that's not a good idea so we'll have content patches but charge a Fee! Then the basic online info actually requires another fee?? Yeah like I'd pay an xtra $1 to look up stats on a pair of pants.
So I think the Packs should be free, or at the very least free for all after X days. Let the impatient people fork up $5 so they can get the Sword of Uberness before anyone else.
Since EoF is bundled with other expansions it should come with a free month attached. That way they can entice people to return, instead of double charging them (subscription + expansion cost).
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Get of your WOW fixation. Firstoff, I have never played WOW, and never will. What I am looking for in a game is so far past WOW..., well, obviously that you can not comprehend. Second, WOW has brought thousands of people into the MMORPG market, people who may never have been here if it wasn't for WOW. The fact that they are burning out on WOW and turning to EQ 2 is a good sign, it means they are developing their taste. WOW no longer satisfies their entertainment needs, and they want something more, just like veteran MMORG'ers want something more. WOW is an introductory product. It is also marketing power. Marketing power we, the gamers, can either use, or abuse.
Once these WOW players analyze why they are burning out, just like many of us veterans have, they will hit the forums with their frustrations and their suggestions. That also is a good thing, the more voices demanding more will eventually force the hardened corporate MMORPG developers to sit up and think outside the box. Right now, they have no need to listen to their customer base, no need to think, all they have to do is grind out the latest rehash every 6 months to make money. And in baiting critcism by labeling people trolls you are pandering to the think inside the box mentality of the corporate money machine. Rather than rant as a fanboi, try constructively engaging critics. See if they have any good ideas, and get these ideas out onto the forums.
There will never be a change in the tried and true grind formula unless we, the players, speak out and tell them what we are looking for. Whether you like, or dislike, SOE, they are a major player in the industry, and have the capabilities to take the lead, and set the bar higher. Same with Blizzard. Hold them accountable to do so.
Now let me give you an example of the solo play I would like to see included with the solo grind....
You are an assassin, you go to your NPC assassin's guild, and get a contract to kill a mercenary leader in a dungeon. Since it is a solo quest, you change out of your metal armor, don your assassins cloth outfit that increases your stealth attribute, and head on into an instanced zone in which you are the only player. You sneak foreward down the corridors, moving from the right wall to the left to get that peak around the corner, arrow notched in case you run into anything. You know that in the solo content instanced zone the combat system has changed, and one bowshot can be one kill. Likewise, you know that, in your cloth armor, a metalled up tank is going to eat you alive. Combat is quick and deadly here, unlike the group/raid experience.
Around a corner you see three sentries talking. Everything is ungrouped, mano a mano in here. You know that to shoot now will bring the other two charging down on you, and you will not survive. You wait patiently, listening to the conversation for tidbits about the mercenary leader you need to kill, two minutes passes, then sentry three walks away. Still not a good time for a shot. 45 seconds later, sentry two walks across the room. Is it far enough you ask youself, do I dare the shot? 30 seconds more passes, and sentry one starts to cross the room. Shit, you think, I can't see sentry two, I have no idea where sentry three is, no time, loose the arrow, quickly renotch. Sentry one drops, one shot, one kill, no shout of alarm. You breathe, one down two to go, and move to the edge of the corridor, peering into the room. Crap, there's sentry three, metal armor and shield, two to three arrows needed, can't miss or I'm meat.
Using stealth and shadows to move deeper into the room, where's sentry two? There he is, just opposite sentry three, one shot, one kill, but too close to sentry three. Slip back toward sentry three, crap, he's moving toward me, crap, forcing me to move into sentry two. Arrow still notched, you use stealth to move away from sentry three, toward sentry two. How close can I get before being seen? Is there enough distance yet to get the shot off without alerting sentry three? Crap, it's now or never...you loose, hit, one shot, one kill, no alarm. Now, only sentry three to stalk....
This is the drift of what I want to see as solo content in a MMORPG. EQ 2 was on the verge of this breakthrough in the class/subclass quest system, then they walked away from it and increased the grind experience instead. Solo experience that keeps the player on the edge of his/her seat. Think....am I making the right, or the wrong, decision? Doing a quest that no other class in the game can do. This is similiar to a quest from Oblivion, why not also a quest from EQ 2 developers? Why not?
*chuckles*, I've got to hand it to guys, debateing Free Content, and how bad SOE is, truth of the matter is, we are all here to play, regardless of who is makeing profits, or, not.
In 1 topic, a player mentioned there isn't one game that doesn't have the grind, truth is Eve doesn't have the grind, other than to make isk, your skills are derived from time, so, your not grinding there, plus, its got tons of solo content, as for other games, I've played COV, SWG, WOW, and several others and I found that I enjoyed the grind, but, in small doses.
I'm not smashing your arguements, or, praiseing them, but, to be honest, I've never will hold up the gold crown to SOE, I enjoyed SWG, and, once they began to screw the customers out of the origional game play, and the squed the numbers to thier likeing, and, banned posts that were dislikeing, that even killed thier reputation even further. And, please, the topic about SOE not doing all the content changes to SWG, that was indeed bogus, SOE was the sole responsible contributor to the new content, they even said so, especially after LA allowed them to go ahead with the changes, Trust me, I was on the test server the day the leading developer declared his resignation after actually viewing the new content in full action. He wasn't happy about it at all, and, that was the true reason why he resigned, especially when SOE gave him the ultimateium. of either staying with the new content or leaveing.
Olddaddy: i would love to play a game that had content like that.
Baxslash: EVE is still a grind. mining for hrs and hrs on end waiting for the skills to increase and to make isk, is exactly what i would call grind. lets see, double click rock #1, start mining lasers, stare at screen watching for bandits and other pirates for 15 min. until either cargo bay is full or rock is depleted. find another rock and repeat. then warp back to station, change ships, take freighter back and pick up minerals and warp back to station, do that until you have all minerals in station. stand up and stretch your legs, smooth out the butt impression you left in the seat, then sit back down and repeat. definition of grind.
now EVE has the potential that no other game has for original content. and no doubt that some of the richer players prolly dont grind. hell, theyre the ones issuing out the grind missions. but after getting the same kill these pirates at this loc. that are only there for you to kill (thats their only purpose), for that 100th time you start to feel that what you do doesnt make any real difference. some of the quests are pretty original though. in any case, i quit that game after about a year because as a casual player, i couldnt compete with the core gamers that were in the richer guilds. i was in a good guild, but not very active. our leader had like 500 billion isk in the bank, and i was scraping by with a million if i was lucky, that was a good wk. i tried the pvp, i tried the mining. i tried the questing. same ol' same old. day in and day out.
and yes, SOE put the changes into SWG, but they were LucasArts changes. theres plenty of documentation on this. Oo and just so you know, every company makes changes to the games that they have, some are bad. talk to the FFXI fanbase for referance.
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