Originally posted by Xersues Hah that article is complete BS. L2extreme didn't "charge" for anything. They took donations to keep the servers running and gave you in game things for doing so. Besides the people that were a majority on that server you WOULD NOT want them anywhere NEAR your mmorpg. They were the end all kill all to any form of healthy community. The people that played would have never payed for L2 anyway, they wanted to be power leveled up to 60 then just PvP the entire time. Thats all they wanted.
Those numbers about "costing them millions of dollars" per year is also BS. You don't know if they were going to play on NCSofts servers anyway. Its all theoretical. L2extreme's server was no near the same as NCsofts server, so you can't even compare them.
If you say stealing is stealing, then sure, you're right, but pretending you are hurt by a bunch of theoretical data is just bull.
The article is not BS. Of course it costs NCSoft money. They are charged bandwidth and internet costs like anyone else. If players are downloading from servers they pay for, and then not paying to play on the servers the game is intended for, then NCSoft is out of pocket.
What you forget is that everyone that works at NCSoft has to make a living, despite your personal feelings as to their business methods. Everyone from the janitor to the website designer to the guys at the top. They have to make a profitable game, or everyone goes home broke. Work it out for a moment. If people are playing NCSoft's game for free, on private servers that are not paying NCSoft, then how exactly are they not losing out on capital? If everyone of us played on private servers of our favourite games, the how long do you think it would be until the whole industry would become unprofitable and fold, leaving us all with - yes you guessed it - no games at all.
A lot of people seem to think the internet grows on trees, along with chocolate money. It doesn't. Making and hosting a game costs a fortune. Whether you agree with NCSoft's policies, what private servers do is theft. They are not authorised to use that game or server code in any way whatsoever. It doesn't matter if a private server is non-profit. It is simply theft. Expect to be prosecuted. Step up and pay to play like anyone else if you like the game. If you don't, too bad. There's no free hand-outs in life.
I don't like NCSoft, or their games, but I support anyone that works hard to create something. I hope those responsible at L2extreme are severely punished.
Maybe the game company should stop and think. Why do people want to play on free(pirate) servers. Maybe because their game isn't worth the money needed to play on their own server. Maybe gamers think they are greedy. Yes, it is a crime, but no crimes would be commited if there'd be no need for them. A monthly fee game should have EXTREMELY good customer support and a hell a lot of updates to keep old players in. If they don't provide enough content to make players feel they pay for something... this is what happens. Would anyone of you buy a toaster that would require a quarter every time you used it if there'd be no extra benefits to the ones you don't pay the quarter for.
Originally posted by Sinitassu Maybe the game company should stop and think. Why do people want to play on free(pirate) servers. Maybe because their game isn't worth the money needed to play on their own server. Maybe gamers think they are greedy. Yes, it is a crime, but no crimes would be commited if there'd be no need for them. A monthly fee game should have EXTREMELY good customer support and a hell a lot of updates to keep old players in. If they don't provide enough content to make players feel they pay for something... this is what happens. Would anyone of you buy a toaster that would require a quarter every time you used it if there'd be no extra benefits to the ones you don't pay the quarter for.
Go FBI! Go NCsoft! GO PIRATES! YARRR!
- Tassu
People don't commit crime because there's a need for crime! Humanity commits crime out of greed, insanity or desperation. NCSoft are not 'asking for it'! It's very damn simple: if you don't think a game is worth the asking price, then you don't play it. It's that simple! Your feelings on the worth of the service does not entitle you to commit crimes by playing on illegal servers.
What kind of logic is that, anyway? "Hmm..this game isn't worth what they ask for it, but I'll play it anyway for free. Hah!" - If that's how you feel, then you deserve jail time. When I use 'you', I don't mean you specifically, Tassu. But your logic is flawed.
As is the toaster analogy. When you buy a toaster, you don't sign an agreement of monthly payments in return for a service (unless it's some uber toaster). You buy a toaster, you use it. Simple as that. But to be polite and answer your question; no, I wouldn't buy such a toaster. Unless it did something really special, then I stick a euro in it everytime. Perhaps if it had dancing Playboy puppets or something..
The point is, it doesn't matter if Lineage 2 is worth what NCSoft charge per month, but that's the way it is. You don't like it, sod off and don't play.
Is the byte code used on the free server NCsoft property? If it was taken from a NCsoft computer then I agree it was a crime.
If on the other hand it was developed externally without input from NCsoft(assuming they didnt infringe copyrighted material) then there is no breach of Copyright because they have stolen nothing. The customers may be using the client improperly... but the client is being used by the users not the server. Also unless specified in the Eula that the software must be used with NCsofts servers solely then clients also havent done anything wrong.
I also dont see grounds for charging them with theft of bandwidth because NCsoft are publicly sharing the files. Are we going to be charging people for downloading legally obtainable files after the fact now? These Eulas which I as a developer have had the joy of trying to enforce (The guy, I was contracting for turned around and was on selling my work) are full of crap and I would love to see them fully tested in a real court.
This whole thing stinks to high hell of RIAA type behaviour.
Originally posted by Xersues Hah that article is complete BS. L2extreme didn't "charge" for anything. They took donations to keep the servers running and gave you in game things for doing so. Besides the people that were a majority on that server you WOULD NOT want them anywhere NEAR your mmorpg. They were the end all kill all to any form of healthy community. The people that played would have never payed for L2 anyway, they wanted to be power leveled up to 60 then just PvP the entire time. Thats all they wanted.
Those numbers about "costing them millions of dollars" per year is also BS. You don't know if they were going to play on NCSofts servers anyway. Its all theoretical. L2extreme's server was no near the same as NCsofts server, so you can't even compare them.
If you say stealing is stealing, then sure, you're right, but pretending you are hurt by a bunch of theoretical data is just bull.
Actualy, schmee (L2X's main admin) pocketed a lot of change from those "donations". With that kind of playerbase a lot of the donations did not go towards the server, but went towards him. He was also very corrupt.
By the way, from the looks of it, a lot of other private L2 servers have shut down out of fear.
Originally posted by Darthorious Originally posted by Holyavenger1 Originally posted by Admin Originally posted by Sentime Heh dream on. This site runs ads for things NCsoft considers "illegal" btw.
The title of this column should be, "FBI shuts down L2Extreme operation. Investigation ongoing." They didn't stop much.
To make it really clear selling virtual currency is NOT illegal in any sense of the definition. For something to be illegal it has to violate government's law. Software piracy on the other hand is illegal, very illegal in fact with penalties in the US being up to 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine (Title 17 of U.S.C.). Copyright laws are also upheld across the world in most civilized nations.
Virtual currency trading is a breach of private contract and would only be heard in a civil case (ie NCSoft vs IGE, etc). When a LAW is broken (ie something illegal was done) then it becomes (The State of California vs xxx or The United States of America vs xxx, etc, etc).
To my knowledge there are no US laws (or laws in any other nations) that prohibit the sale of virtual currency or items. MMORPG.com would never advertise for a company that did anything illegal...ever.
Pssst. Breaching a private contract IS illegal. Otherwise, you couldn't be held responsible in front of a civil.. huh.. court of law, you know, which could later on give you the order to pay something back or authorize the use of limited force to seize from you the goods that will be used as your payment.
So I think the word you're looking for is "Criminal". It is NOT criminal to sell online currency because it is NOT criminal to breach a contract. However, you can be held legally responsible for breaching the contract and it IS illegal because a court of law can constrain you to a certain action as the result of you breaking the contract.
That being said, don't fancy yourself too much in what you do. I understand it brings you money to have those ads up, but it DOES encourage illegal activity, wether you like it or not, and it is immoral, wether you like it or not, because it does more to disrupt gameplay in regular customers than it does for those rich SOAB you buy the currencies/items. Its not a matter of opinion, its just plain fact and not playing with the words.
Finally, I appreciate that you had the guts -- or plain stupid idea -- of posting this. I respect MMORPG.com for being a major hub in MMO world, but this kind of post from an Admin here is just crossing the line and plain just unacceptable. lol you must be smoking something it's obvious what he stated,
The FBI did not close them down for selling of curency because it is illegal, FBI has no jurisdiction in cival matters period, nor do they want it. They were closed dow because they may have commited a fedral offense by allowing their users to download directly off the gaming sites servers costing them large amounts of money in bandwidth. Which after a certain dollar point met is considered a fedral crime basicly stealing bandwidth. Same as stealing gold out of fort nox it's not money but the value of it is enough to land you in a fedral court.
Yeah, obviously, and I totally agree. But my post wasn't about that. At all.
It was about the fact Admin can't make the difference between legal/illegal and criminal/not criminal. Breaching a contract IS illegal, because it can lend you a court order and wether or not it's hard to prove doesn't change the validity of my point: it's frakking illegal.
So, Admin actually admitted his website is supporting activities of illegal nature, which is -- we all agree -- isn't gonna have any consequences whatsoever, but is just dumb to do, especially for a website that boosts having the largest general MMOs hub/community. Not a very serious and/or respectable opinion to say the least.
Oh and breaching a private contract you have to prove it was breeched which is next to impossible. A simular court case was thrown out of court over a MMO because it could not be proven that the guy actually pressed the accept button. It was argued that his 10 year old son could have been doing it and playing the game wich would not make the parent liable for the breech but make the parrent liable for the child breeching the contract and then again they have to prove the child did it etc... Gets thrown out of court and did happen.
Laws on this do vary from country to country and probably even from state to state. One thing for sure, here in Canada, you're liable for what your kids do, wether or not they can prove you had any implication.
In my opinion, if your kids are able to get ahold of your credit card, enter the information and play an MMO to any extent without you realizing they did, well, that probably qualifies you for either a) dumb-ass of the year; b) worst parent of the year; or c) all of the above.
regardless of how "fun" it is, it is theft. Theft is illegal.
I thought this was funny:
=-=-=-=
Domain name: l2extreme.com
Registrant Contact: Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation (info@fbi.gov) +1.2023243000 Fax: +1.2023243000 J. Edgar Hoover Building Washington, DC 20535 US
Administrative Contact: Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation (info@fbi.gov) +1.2023243000 Fax: +1.2023243000 J. Edgar Hoover Building Washington, DC 20535 US
Technical Contact: Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation (info@fbi.gov) +1.2023243000 Fax: +1.2023243000 J. Edgar Hoover Building Washington, DC 20535 US =-=-=-=-=
Star Wars Galaxies on the other hand, an emulation of that game, pre-cu, would be VERY welcomed! SOE stoled from me. SOE lied to me. SOE committed consumer fraud agasint me. I paid for a game, they tool it away whlie claiming "pre-order this before tommorrow to get X Y Z items. Hurry!" to cancel they marketed products the following day knowing many many months in advance they had no intent to sell the product they were advertising.
Originally posted by korvass As is the toaster analogy. When you buy a toaster, you don't sign an agreement of monthly payments in return for a service (unless it's some uber toaster). You buy a toaster, you use it. Simple as that. But to be polite and answer your question; no, I wouldn't buy such a toaster. Unless it did something really special, then I stick a euro in it everytime. Perhaps if it had dancing Playboy puppets or something..
The point is, it doesn't matter if Lineage 2 is worth what NCSoft charge per month, but that's the way it is. You don't like it, sod off and don't play.
I've never even tried Lineage (2), but that is besides the point. If you don't want to pay your toaster why should you pay for the game if they don't provide anything special.
So the game might be worth the initial payment (when you purchase the game) but not the monthly fee or you might feel like they don't provide enough for the money. I think you should be able to play the game even though you are not willing to pay for it. As you may use your toaster for "free", but you have to pay if it breaks down.
Those damn monthly fees are greater than my electricity bill for 3months anyway ;P
i don't care who they are and how they played, the fact that they played a mmorpg from a pirated server constitutes stealing in my book. you can rationalize it however you want, these players & servers new they were stealing and NCSoft and the FBI were right in shutting them down.
mh, what i don't get in this context is, if they used a selfwritten server software and provide a server for no costs, how is that theft? ncsoft lets people download l2 for free. theft would be if they were to use the original ncsoft server software and/or charge a fee for their services, no?
not that i want to defent l2extreme or private servers, i am just wondering about the grey zone here....
Most of you guys are way too hardcore. Maybe they should have thought about why L2 had so many private servers. Lineage 2 mechanics and world rock. Grind and community are HORRIBLE. l2ex community was about having fun not treating a friggin mmo like a job. Lordy lordy people
Originally posted by Sinitassu Would anyone of you buy a toaster that would require a quarter every time you used it if there'd be no extra benefits to the ones you don't pay the quarter for.
Go FBI! Go NCsoft! GO PIRATES! YARRR!
- Tassu
Actually in this case the one that takes a quarter would take twice as long to toast, burn it, and then ignore all complaints.
In my opinion L2 is one of "those games" like guild wars that simply doesnt deserve an online fee. They should just sell the box and work on expansions that they can charge people for. It has worked for guild Wars because they know the game is not worth a monthly fee to play.
It is time that these low budget cheesy MMOs realize that unless they are willing to invest the time effort and money involved in making a quality game like WOW or EQ2 (pick any high end MMO you like) then they are going to have to play to their stregths. DDO, L2, EVE, Tantra, 9 dragons et all need to take a page from the Guid Wars manual and get paid.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Originally posted by starman999 Sorry..... In my opinion L2 is one of "those games" like guild wars that simply doesnt deserve an online fee. They should just sell the box and work on expansions that they can charge people for. It has worked for guild Wars because they know the game is not worth a monthly fee to play. It is time that these low budget cheesy MMOs realize that unless they are willing to invest the time effort and money involved in making a quality game like WOW or EQ2 (pick any high end MMO you like) then they are going to have to play to their stregths. DDO, L2, EVE, Tantra, 9 dragons et all need to take a page from the Guid Wars manual and get paid.
Well subscriptions are working for Lineage 2 so no need of going B2P and F2P considering L2 has 100k+ subscribers..
Originally posted by docminus mh, what i don't get in this context is, if they used a selfwritten server software and provide a server for no costs, how is that theft? ncsoft lets people download l2 for free. theft would be if they were to use the original ncsoft server software and/or charge a fee for their services, no?not that i want to defent l2extreme or private servers, i am just wondering about the grey zone here....
Okay, so why would they make a server that is made solely for running the L2 client? Why would they do that unless they were planning on hosting the client? That's where the grey zone lies. Wanna say the people downloading the client to use on the servers are the guilty ones? Okay, I think so too. And that makes the person who operates a server for them to use that client on an accessory, if nothing else. In fact, that's what they should do. Instead of going after the servers first, go after the ones that are providing the client to the server, for the client is NCsoft's property. I bet you'll have less servers than ever when the Joe Schmoe who thinks he's getting away with playing free gets that knock on his door from the F.B.I.
Originally posted by Mnoram Most of you guys are way too hardcore. Maybe they should have thought about why L2 had so many private servers. Lineage 2 mechanics and world rock. Grind and community are HORRIBLE. l2ex community was about having fun not treating a friggin mmo like a job. Lordy lordy people
/applaud
even if it might be illegal with the servers per se, the whole idea was, that they gave people something nc soft couldn't (do i need to spell out bot?).
Well, I used to play on official L2 servers but migrated over to private servers. Many of the people that I knew on the official server did the same...
I shall explain, it was not because of the monthly fee, in all honesty, 15$ a month is nothing special... Rather, the gaming experience I was having was steadily dropping due to the inability or unwillingness of the administrators to keep in check and make people respect their rules. Botting has become a virus on the official servers, the reason why they allow it? Each bot = 1 paying account. So for them, it's all about money. PERIOD. Out of 100k + subscribers, I guarantee you that half if not more are bot accounts, think of the impact for a second... 50k bots, running on external programs that don't require the user to be present to level them up. It's kind of hard to enjoy a game when grinding becomes impossible due to lack of mobs...
Second, as if lack of mobs wasn't enough, it takes an extremely long time to level up. What in WoW you can acquire at a relatively relaxed pace within a year (lvl 60), you would acquire the equivalent in L2 in 3 years, unless you were a botter of course...
So now you say "the law is the law", sure, I agree, stealing is stealing no matter how you look at it. But then shouldn't NCSoft be held responsible for stealing from the honest subscribers, in terms of quality and gameplay value, by allowing the botters to ravage their servers (something that is against their own rules)? They're hypocrites to the core, the only tangible loss they are suffering is from people downloading the client from their site, so bandwidth... That can easily be fixed, remove the download or ask for someone to have a registered account to download the game. That being said, they are claiming "opportunity cost" losses assuming that private server players would migrate over to official... LOL! Sure, especially since the opposite was happening even before the FBI got involved. Take a look on official forums, the players are glad because they think this will bring in fresh blood... WRONG, if anything, all the servers that got shutdown due to fear will generate new ones that are out of the FBI's juristiction, i.e. Russian servers.
They should of instead have learned something from the private servers that were re-engineering the game on their own. I'm not talking about the rates, but about custom features that were nowhere to be found on official. Take a look at [Edited by Finwe] to get an idea...
So, let me sum it up, NCSoft sucks, private servers ftw.
In the end, the biggest losers in all this are the ones that thought up and made the game initially, L2 is a great game, if played the way it's supposed to, sadly, the money hungry corporates took control and ruined it.
Oh well, I have already found another private server
Well, I used to play on official L2 servers but migrated over to private servers. Many of the people that I knew on the official server did the same...
I shall explain, it was not because of the monthly fee, in all honesty, 15$ a month is nothing special... Rather, the gaming experience I was having was steadily dropping due to the inability or unwillingness of the administrators to keep in check and make people respect their rules. Botting has become a virus on the official servers, the reason why they allow it? Each bot = 1 paying account. So for them, it's all about money. PERIOD. Out of 100k + subscribers, I guarantee you that half if not more are bot accounts, think of the impact for a second... 50k bots, running on external programs that don't require the user to be present to level them up. It's kind of hard to enjoy a game when grinding becomes impossible due to lack of mobs...
Second, as if lack of mobs wasn't enough, it takes an extremely long time to level up. What in WoW you can acquire at a relatively relaxed pace within a year (lvl 60), you would acquire the equivalent in L2 in 3 years, unless you were a botter of course...
So now you say "the law is the law", sure, I agree, stealing is stealing no matter how you look at it. But then shouldn't NCSoft be held responsible for stealing from the honest subscribers, in terms of quality and gameplay value, by allowing the botters to ravage their servers (something that is against their own rules)? They're hypocrites to the core, the only tangible loss they are suffering is from people downloading the client from their site, so bandwidth... That can easily be fixed, remove the download or ask for someone to have a registered account to download the game. That being said, they are claiming "opportunity cost" losses assuming that private server players would migrate over to official... LOL! Sure, especially since the opposite was happening even before the FBI got involved. Take a look on official forums, the players are glad because they think this will bring in fresh blood... WRONG, if anything, all the servers that got shutdown due to fear will generate new ones that are out of the FBI's juristiction, i.e. Russian servers.
They should of instead have learned something from the private servers that were re-engineering the game on their own. I'm not talking about the rates, but about custom features that were nowhere to be found on official. Take a look at (naughty,naughty) to get an idea...
So, let me sum it up, NCSoft sucks, private servers ftw.
In the end, the biggest losers in all this are the ones that thought up and made the game initially, L2 is a great game, if played the way it's supposed to, sadly, the money hungry corporates took control and ruined it.
Oh well, I have already found another private server
No, NCsoft is not stealing from "honest customers" by allowing the bots. It is up to the customer what they will put up with and what they won't. People don't like the bots, they vote with their wallet by going to another legit game. So your reasoning for private servers is the weakest I've seen so far. Also, you have been reported for including the link to a private server. Have a nice day.
Originally posted by Zorvan Originally posted by WooterLordWell, I used to play on official L2 servers but migrated over to private servers. Many of the people that I knew on the official server did the same...I shall explain, it was not because of the monthly fee, in all honesty, 15$ a month is nothing special... Rather, the gaming experience I was having was steadily dropping due to the inability or unwillingness of the administrators to keep in check and make people respect their rules. Botting has become a virus on the official servers, the reason why they allow it? Each bot = 1 paying account. So for them, it's all about money. PERIOD. Out of 100k + subscribers, I guarantee you that half if not more are bot accounts, think of the impact for a second... 50k bots, running on external programs that don't require the user to be present to level them up. It's kind of hard to enjoy a game when grinding becomes impossible due to lack of mobs...Second, as if lack of mobs wasn't enough, it takes an extremely long time to level up. What in WoW you can acquire at a relatively relaxed pace within a year (lvl 60), you would acquire the equivalent in L2 in 3 years, unless you were a botter of course...So now you say "the law is the law", sure, I agree, stealing is stealing no matter how you look at it. But then shouldn't NCSoft be held responsible for stealing from the honest subscribers, in terms of quality and gameplay value, by allowing the botters to ravage their servers (something that is against their own rules)? They're hypocrites to the core, the only tangible loss they are suffering is from people downloading the client from their site, so bandwidth... That can easily be fixed, remove the download or ask for someone to have a registered account to download the game. That being said, they are claiming "opportunity cost" losses assuming that private server players would migrate over to official... LOL! Sure, especially since the opposite was happening even before the FBI got involved. Take a look on official forums, the players are glad because they think this will bring in fresh blood... WRONG, if anything, all the servers that got shutdown due to fear will generate new ones that are out of the FBI's juristiction, i.e. Russian servers.They should of instead have learned something from the private servers that were re-engineering the game on their own. I'm not talking about the rates, but about custom features that were nowhere to be found on official. Take a look at (naughty,naughty) to get an idea...So, let me sum it up, NCSoft sucks, private servers ftw.In the end, the biggest losers in all this are the ones that thought up and made the game initially, L2 is a great game, if played the way it's supposed to, sadly, the money hungry corporates took control and ruined it. Oh well, I have already found another private server
No, NCsoft is not stealing from "honest customers" by allowing the bots. It is up to the customer what they will put up with and what they won't. People don't like the bots, they vote with their wallet by going to another legit game. So your reasoning for private servers is the weakest I've seen so far. Also, you have been reported for including the link to a private server. Have a nice day.
That's exactly what I and many others did, I "voted" by taking my money back while playing for free. And honestly, you don't have to believe me about my reasoning, but you have no grounds to state that it's weak since you've never played official L2, so thx for coming out.
EDIT: Next time you reply to me put some grey matter into it or I'll just simply ignore you as if you don't exist.
Originally posted by WooterLord Originally posted by Zorvan Originally posted by WooterLordWell, I used to play on official L2 servers but migrated over to private servers. Many of the people that I knew on the official server did the same...I shall explain, it was not because of the monthly fee, in all honesty, 15$ a month is nothing special... Rather, the gaming experience I was having was steadily dropping due to the inability or unwillingness of the administrators to keep in check and make people respect their rules. Botting has become a virus on the official servers, the reason why they allow it? Each bot = 1 paying account. So for them, it's all about money. PERIOD. Out of 100k + subscribers, I guarantee you that half if not more are bot accounts, think of the impact for a second... 50k bots, running on external programs that don't require the user to be present to level them up. It's kind of hard to enjoy a game when grinding becomes impossible due to lack of mobs...Second, as if lack of mobs wasn't enough, it takes an extremely long time to level up. What in WoW you can acquire at a relatively relaxed pace within a year (lvl 60), you would acquire the equivalent in L2 in 3 years, unless you were a botter of course...So now you say "the law is the law", sure, I agree, stealing is stealing no matter how you look at it. But then shouldn't NCSoft be held responsible for stealing from the honest subscribers, in terms of quality and gameplay value, by allowing the botters to ravage their servers (something that is against their own rules)? They're hypocrites to the core, the only tangible loss they are suffering is from people downloading the client from their site, so bandwidth... That can easily be fixed, remove the download or ask for someone to have a registered account to download the game. That being said, they are claiming "opportunity cost" losses assuming that private server players would migrate over to official... LOL! Sure, especially since the opposite was happening even before the FBI got involved. Take a look on official forums, the players are glad because they think this will bring in fresh blood... WRONG, if anything, all the servers that got shutdown due to fear will generate new ones that are out of the FBI's juristiction, i.e. Russian servers.They should of instead have learned something from the private servers that were re-engineering the game on their own. I'm not talking about the rates, but about custom features that were nowhere to be found on official. Take a look at (naughty,naughty) to get an idea...So, let me sum it up, NCSoft sucks, private servers ftw.In the end, the biggest losers in all this are the ones that thought up and made the game initially, L2 is a great game, if played the way it's supposed to, sadly, the money hungry corporates took control and ruined it. Oh well, I have already found another private server
No, NCsoft is not stealing from "honest customers" by allowing the bots. It is up to the customer what they will put up with and what they won't. People don't like the bots, they vote with their wallet by going to another legit game. So your reasoning for private servers is the weakest I've seen so far. Also, you have been reported for including the link to a private server. Have a nice day.
That's exactly what I and many others did, I "voted" by taking my money back while playing for free. And honestly, you don't have to believe me about my reasoning, but you have no grounds to state that it's weak since you've never played official L2, so thx for coming out.
Guess what? I have played "Official" L2, so you're wrong. Surprise. Also, since your reasoning was based upon the innaccurate statements of NCsoft is "stealing from their customers", your reasoning is indeed weak. Not my problem, it's yours. It is a sad, thin attempt to garner some sympathy for those who do steal by using private servers.
EDIT: Next time you reply to me put some grey matter into it
You are a shining example of why it is impossible to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. This is not to imply that you are witless, of course. I'm sure you are at least at the "half" mark.
or I'll just simply ignore you as if you don't exist.
And a nightlite helps keep those pesky closet monsters away, don't it?
Originally posted by starman999 Sorry..... In my opinion L2 is one of "those games" like guild wars that simply doesnt deserve an online fee. They should just sell the box and work on expansions that they can charge people for. It has worked for guild Wars because they know the game is not worth a monthly fee to play. It is time that these low budget cheesy MMOs realize that unless they are willing to invest the time effort and money involved in making a quality game like WOW or EQ2 (pick any high end MMO you like) then they are going to have to play to their stregths. DDO, L2, EVE, Tantra, 9 dragons et all need to take a page from the Guid Wars manual and get paid.
You actually believe Lineage 2 is a low budget mmorpg? Hahahah, sir, I think its better if you actually get your facts right. And sure, in your opinion its not worth a monthly fee, despite that its been the 2nd most popular MMORPG ever created, with at its top 4 MILLION subscribers. I definitly say it IS worth a monthly fee.
Comments
What you forget is that everyone that works at NCSoft has to make a living, despite your personal feelings as to their business methods. Everyone from the janitor to the website designer to the guys at the top. They have to make a profitable game, or everyone goes home broke. Work it out for a moment. If people are playing NCSoft's game for free, on private servers that are not paying NCSoft, then how exactly are they not losing out on capital? If everyone of us played on private servers of our favourite games, the how long do you think it would be until the whole industry would become unprofitable and fold, leaving us all with - yes you guessed it - no games at all.
A lot of people seem to think the internet grows on trees, along with chocolate money. It doesn't. Making and hosting a game costs a fortune. Whether you agree with NCSoft's policies, what private servers do is theft. They are not authorised to use that game or server code in any way whatsoever. It doesn't matter if a private server is non-profit. It is simply theft. Expect to be prosecuted. Step up and pay to play like anyone else if you like the game. If you don't, too bad. There's no free hand-outs in life.
I don't like NCSoft, or their games, but I support anyone that works hard to create something. I hope those responsible at L2extreme are severely punished.
Go FBI! Go NCsoft! GO PIRATES! YARRR!
- Tassu
"Lick My Weapons"
It's very damn simple: if you don't think a game is worth the asking price, then you don't play it. It's that simple! Your feelings on the worth of the service does not entitle you to commit crimes by playing on illegal servers.
What kind of logic is that, anyway? "Hmm..this game isn't worth what they ask for it, but I'll play it anyway for free. Hah!" - If that's how you feel, then you deserve jail time. When I use 'you', I don't mean you specifically, Tassu. But your logic is flawed.
As is the toaster analogy. When you buy a toaster, you don't sign an agreement of monthly payments in return for a service (unless it's some uber toaster). You buy a toaster, you use it. Simple as that. But to be polite and answer your question; no, I wouldn't buy such a toaster. Unless it did something really special, then I stick a euro in it everytime. Perhaps if it had dancing Playboy puppets or something..
The point is, it doesn't matter if Lineage 2 is worth what NCSoft charge per month, but that's the way it is. You don't like it, sod off and don't play.
Hi,
Is the byte code used on the free server NCsoft property? If it was taken from
a NCsoft computer then I agree it was a crime.
If on the other hand it was developed externally without input from
NCsoft(assuming they didnt infringe copyrighted material) then there is no
breach of Copyright because they have stolen nothing. The customers may be
using the client improperly... but the client is being used by the users not
the server. Also unless specified in the Eula that the software must be used
with NCsofts servers solely then clients also havent done anything wrong.
I also dont see grounds for charging them with theft of bandwidth because
NCsoft are publicly sharing the files. Are we going to be charging people for
downloading legally obtainable files after the fact now? These Eulas which I
as a developer have had the joy of trying to enforce (The guy, I was
contracting for turned around and was on selling my work) are full of crap and
I would love to see them fully tested in a real court.
This whole thing stinks to high hell of RIAA type behaviour.
,
Oglem
By the way, from the looks of it, a lot of other private L2 servers have shut down out of fear.
To make it really clear selling virtual currency is NOT illegal in any sense of the definition. For something to be illegal it has to violate government's law. Software piracy on the other hand is illegal, very illegal in fact with penalties in the US being up to 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine (Title 17 of U.S.C.). Copyright laws are also upheld across the world in most civilized nations.
Virtual currency trading is a breach of private contract and would only be heard in a civil case (ie NCSoft vs IGE, etc). When a LAW is broken (ie something illegal was done) then it becomes (The State of California vs xxx or The United States of America vs xxx, etc, etc).
To my knowledge there are no US laws (or laws in any other nations) that prohibit the sale of virtual currency or items. MMORPG.com would never advertise for a company that did anything illegal...ever.
Pssst. Breaching a private contract IS illegal. Otherwise, you couldn't be held responsible in front of a civil.. huh.. court of law, you know, which could later on give you the order to pay something back or authorize the use of limited force to seize from you the goods that will be used as your payment.
So I think the word you're looking for is "Criminal". It is NOT criminal to sell online currency because it is NOT criminal to breach a contract. However, you can be held legally responsible for breaching the contract and it IS illegal because a court of law can constrain you to a certain action as the result of you breaking the contract.
That being said, don't fancy yourself too much in what you do. I understand it brings you money to have those ads up, but it DOES encourage illegal activity, wether you like it or not, and it is immoral, wether you like it or not, because it does more to disrupt gameplay in regular customers than it does for those rich SOAB you buy the currencies/items. Its not a matter of opinion, its just plain fact and not playing with the words.
Finally, I appreciate that you had the guts -- or plain stupid idea -- of posting this. I respect MMORPG.com for being a major hub in MMO world, but this kind of post from an Admin here is just crossing the line and plain just unacceptable.
lol you must be smoking something it's obvious what he stated,
The FBI did not close them down for selling of curency because it is illegal, FBI has no jurisdiction in cival matters period, nor do they want it. They were closed dow because they may have commited a fedral offense by allowing their users to download directly off the gaming sites servers costing them large amounts of money in bandwidth. Which after a certain dollar point met is considered a fedral crime basicly stealing bandwidth. Same as stealing gold out of fort nox it's not money but the value of it is enough to land you in a fedral court.
At all.
It was about the fact Admin can't make the difference
between legal/illegal and criminal/not criminal. Breaching a contract
IS illegal, because it can lend you a court order and wether or not
it's hard to prove doesn't change the validity of my point: it's
frakking illegal.
So, Admin actually admitted his website is supporting
activities of illegal nature, which is -- we all agree -- isn't gonna have any consequences whatsoever, but is just dumb to do, especially for a website that boosts having the largest general MMOs hub/community. Not a very serious and/or respectable opinion to say the least.
Oh and breaching a private contract you have to prove it was breeched which is next to impossible. A simular court case was thrown out of court over a MMO because it could not be proven that the guy actually pressed the accept button. It was argued that his 10 year old son could have been doing it and playing the game wich would not make the parent liable for the breech but make the parrent liable for the child breeching the contract and then again they have to prove the child did it etc... Gets thrown out of court and did happen.
In my opinion, if your kids are able to get ahold of your credit card, enter the information and play an MMO to any extent without you realizing they did, well, that probably qualifies you for either a) dumb-ass of the year; b) worst parent of the year; or c) all of the above.
regardless of how "fun" it is, it is theft. Theft is illegal.
I thought this was funny:
=-=-=-=
Domain name: l2extreme.com
Registrant Contact:
Department of Justice
Federal Bureau of Investigation (info@fbi.gov)
+1.2023243000
Fax: +1.2023243000
J. Edgar Hoover Building
Washington, DC 20535
US
Administrative Contact:
Department of Justice
Federal Bureau of Investigation (info@fbi.gov)
+1.2023243000
Fax: +1.2023243000
J. Edgar Hoover Building
Washington, DC 20535
US
Technical Contact:
Department of Justice
Federal Bureau of Investigation (info@fbi.gov)
+1.2023243000
Fax: +1.2023243000
J. Edgar Hoover Building
Washington, DC 20535
US
=-=-=-=-=
Star Wars Galaxies on the other hand, an emulation of that game, pre-cu, would be VERY welcomed! SOE stoled from me. SOE lied to me. SOE committed consumer fraud agasint me. I paid for a game, they tool it away whlie claiming "pre-order this before tommorrow to get X Y Z items. Hurry!" to cancel they marketed products the following day knowing many many months in advance they had no intent to sell the product they were advertising.
So the game might be worth the initial payment (when you purchase the game) but not the monthly fee or you might feel like they don't provide enough for the money. I think you should be able to play the game even though you are not willing to pay for it. As you may use your toaster for "free", but you have to pay if it breaks down.
Those damn monthly fees are greater than my electricity bill for 3months anyway ;P
- Tassu
"Lick My Weapons"
theft would be if they were to use the original ncsoft server software and/or charge a fee for their services, no?
not that i want to defent l2extreme or private servers, i am just wondering about the grey zone here....
Sorry.....
In my opinion L2 is one of "those games" like guild wars that simply doesnt deserve an online fee. They should just sell the box and work on expansions that they can charge people for. It has worked for guild Wars because they know the game is not worth a monthly fee to play.
It is time that these low budget cheesy MMOs realize that unless they are willing to invest the time effort and money involved in making a quality game like WOW or EQ2 (pick any high end MMO you like) then they are going to have to play to their stregths. DDO, L2, EVE, Tantra, 9 dragons et all need to take a page from the Guid Wars manual and get paid.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing
Okay, so why would they make a server that is made solely for running the L2 client? Why would they do that unless they were planning on hosting the client? That's where the grey zone lies.
Wanna say the people downloading the client to use on the servers are the guilty ones? Okay, I think so too. And that makes the person who operates a server for them to use that client on an accessory, if nothing else. In fact, that's what they should do.
Instead of going after the servers first, go after the ones that are providing the client to the server, for the client is NCsoft's property. I bet you'll have less servers than ever when the Joe Schmoe who thinks he's getting away with playing free gets that knock on his door from the F.B.I.
even if it might be illegal with the servers per se, the whole idea was, that they gave people something nc soft couldn't (do i need to spell out bot?).
I shall explain, it was not because of the monthly fee, in all honesty, 15$ a month is nothing special... Rather, the gaming experience I was having was steadily dropping due to the inability or unwillingness of the administrators to keep in check and make people respect their rules. Botting has become a virus on the official servers, the reason why they allow it? Each bot = 1 paying account. So for them, it's all about money. PERIOD. Out of 100k + subscribers, I guarantee you that half if not more are bot accounts, think of the impact for a second... 50k bots, running on external programs that don't require the user to be present to level them up. It's kind of hard to enjoy a game when grinding becomes impossible due to lack of mobs...
Second, as if lack of mobs wasn't enough, it takes an extremely long time to level up. What in WoW you can acquire at a relatively relaxed pace within a year (lvl 60), you would acquire the equivalent in L2 in 3 years, unless you were a botter of course...
So now you say "the law is the law", sure, I agree, stealing is stealing no matter how you look at it. But then shouldn't NCSoft be held responsible for stealing from the honest subscribers, in terms of quality and gameplay value, by allowing the botters to ravage their servers (something that is against their own rules)? They're hypocrites to the core, the only tangible loss they are suffering is from people downloading the client from their site, so bandwidth... That can easily be fixed, remove the download or ask for someone to have a registered account to download the game. That being said, they are claiming "opportunity cost" losses assuming that private server players would migrate over to official... LOL! Sure, especially since the opposite was happening even before the FBI got involved. Take a look on official forums, the players are glad because they think this will bring in fresh blood... WRONG, if anything, all the servers that got shutdown due to fear will generate new ones that are out of the FBI's juristiction, i.e. Russian servers.
They should of instead have learned something from the private servers that were re-engineering the game on their own. I'm not talking about the rates, but about custom features that were nowhere to be found on official. Take a look at [Edited by Finwe] to get an idea...
So, let me sum it up, NCSoft sucks, private servers ftw.
In the end, the biggest losers in all this are the ones that thought up and made the game initially, L2 is a great game, if played the way it's supposed to, sadly, the money hungry corporates took control and ruined it.
Oh well, I have already found another private server
No, NCsoft is not stealing from "honest customers" by allowing the bots. It is up to the customer what they will put up with and what they won't. People don't like the bots, they vote with their wallet by going to another legit game. So your reasoning for private servers is the weakest I've seen so far. Also, you have been reported for including the link to a private server. Have a nice day.
No, NCsoft is not stealing from "honest customers" by allowing the bots. It is up to the customer what they will put up with and what they won't. People don't like the bots, they vote with their wallet by going to another legit game. So your reasoning for private servers is the weakest I've seen so far. Also, you have been reported for including the link to a private server. Have a nice day.
That's exactly what I and many others did, I "voted" by taking my money back while playing for free. And honestly, you don't have to believe me about my reasoning, but you have no grounds to state that it's weak since you've never played official L2, so thx for coming out.
EDIT: Next time you reply to me put some grey matter into it or I'll just simply ignore you as if you don't exist.
No, NCsoft is not stealing from "honest customers" by allowing the bots. It is up to the customer what they will put up with and what they won't. People don't like the bots, they vote with their wallet by going to another legit game. So your reasoning for private servers is the weakest I've seen so far. Also, you have been reported for including the link to a private server. Have a nice day.
That's exactly what I and many others did, I "voted" by taking my money back while playing for free. And honestly, you don't have to believe me about my reasoning, but you have no grounds to state that it's weak since you've never played official L2, so thx for coming out.
Guess what? I have played "Official" L2, so you're wrong. Surprise. Also, since your reasoning was based upon the innaccurate statements of NCsoft is "stealing from their customers", your reasoning is indeed weak. Not my problem, it's yours. It is a sad, thin attempt to garner some sympathy for those who do steal by using private servers.
EDIT: Next time you reply to me put some grey matter into it
You are a shining example of why it is impossible to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. This is not to imply that you are witless, of course. I'm sure you are at least at the "half" mark.
or I'll just simply ignore you as if you don't exist.
And a nightlite helps keep those pesky closet monsters away, don't it?