Being a Homosexual is wrong and it is a sin, I dont not agree with the life style, but it does not mean that the people themselves should be treated badly. How many discussion are their in here from what I can see there is one about queers, one about Religion, One about the Bible, and one about the Earth. Bring it on down now.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
Originally posted by PlanoMM in this day and age, its so popular just to make up your own religion. "if i dont like that part, ill just pretend that it doesnt matter." if you dont want to know the truth, you wont ever know the truth. but the truth is there, hidden right out in front of you. some truthes are harder to take than others. but it doesnt make them any less true. now im no professing preacher, but i do know a thing or two about the Bible and God. ive done me homework on other religions. in fact, ive studied all the religions of the world. i know what i know. simple as that. i dont have anything to prove to anyone. if you have to be convinced, then youre not going to hold onto it anyway. the truth about God, while it can be taught, has to be revealed to you by God before you will accept it as truth. as far as the AnswersinGenesis.org, no you didnt check the site. cause if you had, you would realize that it is completely in opposition to evolution. i believe in creationism, not evolution. im not trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating what i believe. but if you give the creationism website a chance and actually read what it says, you may be surprised by what you find. if not, sorry about your luck. i find it so ironic that the evolutionists and atheists and antichristians accuse christians of being closedminded, but ive yet to find a evolutionist that gives creationism a second look. they quote things like "rocks have been around for millions and millions of years, this proves creationism wrong." haha. kk, so carbon dating is 100% accurate now? anyway, sorry to go off on the tangent there.
You do realize there is more than one way to date the age of the planet, correct? Carbon dating is just one of many.
And nothing can ever been 100% accurate.
That's like saying "Omg, it failed! So it musn't be true!!" Yea okay Lol.
I bet many people believe the iceage never happened either. And that was over 10,000 years ago.
The present ice age began 40 million years ago with the growth of an ice sheet in Antarctica, but intensified during the Pleistocene (starting around 3 million years ago) with the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000 and 100,000 year time scales. The last glacial period ended about ten thousand years ago.
Keep in mind, man was alive before 10,000 years ago. We walked and hunted the mammoths, etc.
Heh.
Are we talking about Cave men here?? Bring it on down now.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
Actually, I think perhaps you're misrepresenting religions reavo.
Obviously you just took a cursory glance at that article and copied it. Perhaps it would serve you to actually read all the subordinate material.
From the wikipedia articles themselves:
Zororastrianism: However, many Zoroastrians accept the entire Avesta as their religious guide, including the Vendidad, a collection of 22 Fargards or precepts concerned with religious purity (only very conservative Zoroastrians continue to abide by all of these laws). The Vendidad states:
"The man that lies with mankind as man lies with womankind, or as woman lies with mankind, is a man that is a Daeva [demon]; this man is a worshipper of the Daevas, a male paramour of the Daevas"
This passage has been interpreted to mean that homosexuality is a form of demon worship and thus sinful. Ancient commentary on this passage suggests that those engaging in sodomy could be killed without permission from the Dastur.
Sikhism:
Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti, the highest temporal Sikh authority, recently condemned homosexuality while reminding visiting Sikh-Canadian Members of Parliament (MPs) of their religious duty to oppose same-sex marriage.[1] In a report published in March 2005, Vedanti said, "The basic duty of Sikh MPs in Canada should be to support laws that stop this kind of practice [homosexuality], because there are thousands of Sikhs living in Canada, to ensure that Sikhs do not fall prey to this practice." Speaking of MPs in favour of such relationships he contained, " The Sikh religion would never accept such MPs. Nobody would support such a person having such dirty thoughts in their mind because it is against the Sikh religion and the Sikh code of conduct and totally against the laws of nature. Sikhs around the world must maintain fidelity to these religious teachings," he argued, "and no politician is exempt".[2]
The supreme Sikh religious body, the Akal Takht, has issued an edict condemning gay marriage and Vedanti's words were echoed by Manjit Singh Kalkatta, another highly respected Sikh preacher who sits on the governing body of the Golden Temple, the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. "The advice given by the highest Sikh temporal authority to every Sikh is saying that it is unnatural and ungodly, and the Sikh religion cannot support it."[2]
Judaism:
The Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible) is the primary classical source for Jewish views on homosexuality. It states that: "[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a to'eva" (Leviticus 18:22).
The term to'eva is usually translated as "abomination" and is used in the Bible to refer to a variety of forbidden acts including incest, idolatry, eating unclean animals, and economic injustice. In the context of sexual prohibitions, the word is also interpreted by the Talmud to be a contraction of the words to'eh ata vah, meaning "You deviate from what is natural." (literally "You are wandering astray with it" since the Hebrew word to'e means "wandering", ata "you", vah "with it")
Buddhism: The third (or sometimes fourth) of the Five Precepts of Buddhism states that one is to refrain from sexual misconduct. This precept has been interpreted variously, sometimes to include any sex that involves the mouth, hands or anus, effectively proscribing most homosexual sex acts and many heterosexual ones too.
Confucianism:
Homosexuality is not mentioned at all in the Confucian scriptures. It is neither listed as a sin nor is it condoned. However, men and women are each expected to abide by traditional gender roles. Men are forbidden from acting too effeminate and woman are forbidden from acting too masculine. Thus, transvestism is strictly forbidden. Some have argued that during anal sex between two men, one must take on the passive role of a woman, defying the man's proscribed gender role. The opposite is true of lesbian couples.
[Note I stated that Confucianism can be argued to be against homosexuality in that it causes one male to take on the role of the female. It helps if you read what I wrote. Same goes with Taoism and some of the others I mentioned]
Taoism:
The Taoist tradition holds that males need the energies of females, and vice versa, in order to bring about balance, completion and transformation. These energies thought to be best obtained through heterosexual relations. Passionate homosexual expression is usually discouraged because it is believed to not lead to human fulfillment.[1] However, homosexuality is not explicitly forbidden by the Taoist Holy Books, the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi.
Taoism stresses the relationship between yin and yang: two opposing forces which maintain harmony through balance. Heterosexuality is seen as the physical and emotional embodiment of the harmonious balance between yin and yang. Homosexuality on the other hand is often seen as the union of two yins or two yangs, and therefore unbalanced. People in same-sex relationships or people who engage in same-sex sexual behaviour are thought to be susceptible to illness.[2]
Asatru (a "Pagan" religion, some say):
In general, Norse writings tend to view homosexuality negatively. The secular laws of Viking Age Iceland do not mention homosexuality. The sagas and laws make a distinction between the active and submissive roles taken by men during anal sex. There was no shame or dishonour attached to the role of the active, or insertive, partner. However, the submissive role was viewed as dishonourable by society (ergi). They were thought of as cowards who had been "conquered" by the active partner.
Originally posted by PlanoMM im fully aware that there are more than just carbon dating. that wasnt me point. me point was that none of the methods used to date rocks and such are 100% accurate. its funny to me that when you can use one method to test a rock you can get one date. use another and get a completely different date, sometimes very different date (think millions of years), and then test it again with the first method and yet again a different date. and instead of saying ok, we dont have a clue as to the actual date of this rock, they just take all 3 tests and average it out, lol. no other science does this. if an instrument was proven to be inaccurate in any other type of experiment, the scientist would stop using the instrument or method and say, ok, that didnt work.First off I am a fossil diver. So I had to learn about dating things. Please research something before you start acting like your an authority. Carbon Dating is only good to 50,000 years back. Not millions. So you wont get millions of years difference. To go further back archeologists use the earth itself and at what level something was found to guess its age. While it wont be exact, and no archeologist would say it was, it will get us in the ball park give or take a million years. Also we would never make three tests and give the average. In fact if we did several tests and they came up with eroneous results we would try a completely different type of test. Again research this next time. kk, on to another issue brought up, i dont wanna get pulled into a theological debate here (cause frankly, i dont really care if you believe like i believe), but i dont know anything that has ever disproven anything out of the Bible. i think youre reaching there.Noah's Flood is a good one. Didnt happen like the Bible said. Didnt even happen when the Bible said. It happened about 2,500 years before that. A sumerian merchant and leader of his village had built a huge boat, by their standards, to move supplies up and down the river near what is now Kuwait. A heavy rain storm hit and started a massive flood. Him and his family retreated to the boat and floated off. They landed back on shore several hundred miles down river.Gilgamesh heard about this and put it in his Epics of Gilgamesh. These were found in the Library of Asshurbanipal. he changed somethings of course however. Then 600 BC the Hebrew Priests used Gilgamesh's story in their own writings. Tablets with the story were found in the temple where the Old Testament was written. And the Hebrew priests also changed things around in the story. See they needed something to help scare the hell out of the hebrew people. They were running amok. Marrying camels and other things. the carabao example, thats called adaptation, not evolution. evolution is the changing on a DNA lvl, (adding and removing of genes and chromazones). its a known fact that all animals (including humans) have and can adapt to new environments. no animal or human or other has ever gained a gene or chromazone through evolution. that would be prove of evolution. you cant claim the losing of a chromazone or gene as proof. otherwise you would consider some of the diseases that happen as evolution. do you? most people consider the diseases that effect the DNA a mutation.The carabao is the national animal of the Philippines. And its had alot of research done on it. Its also the national animal of Guam. And sorry but at the genetic level it is now different from the chinese water buffalo. about the other peoples that were quoted as being before Adam and Eve, youre assuming that the carbon dating (or any other fallable method used) is accurate. so no amount of reasoning is going to be good enough for you.Actually its not carbon dating that tells us this. The Sumerians actually tell us this. Seems they were great record keepers. And their own writings tell us they were around long before adam and eve. Their own history also tells us this. Unless of course you want me to believe that God just sprang them up out of nowhere. One day nothing there, the next a huge civilization with historical records going back some 5,000 years before Adam and Eve. That what your saying? about the iceage, if you understand the concept of a global wide flood then you understand that the iceage could indeed have happened, albeit, just alot sooner. personnally, i think that it makes more since for it to have happen within the last 6000 yrs, you quoted man hunting the mammoth, the Bible actually mentions him, as well as leviathan, a giant sea monster. wouldnt it make more sense that yes these creatures actually existed during this time? guess what, a global flood would indeed wipe out the dinosaurs. hmmmm......Sadly for you there were several ice ages. The earth itself tells us this by examining the various levels.And as for a great global flood, if you mean the one in the Bible nope didnt happen. If I remember the Bible correctly, every part of the earth was supposedly covered up to something like 15 cubits (8 meters). tallest point is Mt. Everest. There isnt enough water on/in the whole planet to cover the entire earth. Also if it only rained for 40 days and 40 nights and with the supposed water coming from the ground as well, the pressure created would crush everything. Again I am a diver. I know about pressure. We are talking something equivilent to 12,000 PSI. And that is what most water drills and cutters use now. That is a small localised thing to about an inch. Imagine that everywhere.And the boat. Oh that is fun. A 450 foot wooden boat. Yah pretty amazing since the biggest wooden boat ever built was 300ft long and leaked like a freaking sieve. See a wooden boat can only be made just so big before it falls apart. in any case, youre going to believe what you wanna believe. i just wanted to put this out there.
I am a realist. While I have found some stories in the Bible are true there have been quite a few that were either wholey not true or very much exaggerated.
dont take my word for it. Look this stuff up yourself. A ton of info out there. Keep an open mind and read. Start at your library. Then move on. You will find alot of surprises on the way. Heck if you want to know about water pressure taking up diving. That is fun and you find alot out.
Originally posted by PlanoMM im fully aware that there are more than just carbon dating. that wasnt me point. me point was that none of the methods used to date rocks and such are 100% accurate. its funny to me that when you can use one method to test a rock you can get one date. use another and get a completely different date, sometimes very different date (think millions of years), and then test it again with the first method and yet again a different date. and instead of saying ok, we dont have a clue as to the actual date of this rock, they just take all 3 tests and average it out, lol. no other science does this. if an instrument was proven to be inaccurate in any other type of experiment, the scientist would stop using the instrument or method and say, ok, that didnt work. First off I am a fossil diver. So I had to learn about dating things. Please research something before you start acting like your an authority. Carbon Dating is only good to 50,000 years back. Not millions. So you wont get millions of years difference. To go further back archeologists use the earth itself and at what level something was found to guess its age. While it wont be exact, and no archeologist would say it was, it will get us in the ball park give or take a million years. Also we would never make three tests and give the average. In fact if we did several tests and they came up with eroneous results we would try a completely different type of test. Again research this next time. i did research things, im not claiming to be an expert on the subject, thats what youre doing. im generalizing. using Carbon dating as an example, because it is one of the most well know methods. and just to clear this up, if you are within a million years of being accurate, and the test says that its a million years old, wouldnt that mean that it could have been made yesterday and that would still be within reason, lol. stupid i know, but still. and again, all, not some of the tests, ALL of the tests are inaccurate. logic dictates that you dont base all of your assumptions on these inaccurate tests. common sense.
kk, on to another issue brought up, i dont wanna get pulled into a theological debate here (cause frankly, i dont really care if you believe like i believe), but i dont know anything that has ever disproven anything out of the Bible. i think youre reaching there. Noah's Flood is a good one. Didnt happen like the Bible said. Didnt even happen when the Bible said. It happened about 2,500 years before that. A sumerian merchant and leader of his village had built a huge boat, by their standards, to move supplies up and down the river near what is now Kuwait. A heavy rain storm hit and started a massive flood. Him and his family retreated to the boat and floated off. They landed back on shore several hundred miles down river. like i pointed out in the original post of mine, i didnt want to be pulled into a theological debate, but since youre going to use this typical example of a flood. please explain fossils of clams on top of Mount Everest. many other examples, but like i already said, i couldnt care less if you believe me. and just like the openedminded that you are, you make the statements of, "Noah's Flood is a good one. Didnt happen like the Bible said." then you site referances that again are assumptions based on fallable tests that are proven inaccurate, as the reasons why youre right and im wrong. fine by me, doesnt bother me in the least if you think that youre right and im wrong. youre not telling me anything new here. Gilgamesh heard about this and put it in his Epics of Gilgamesh. These were found in the Library of Asshurbanipal. he changed somethings of course however. Then 600 BC the Hebrew Priests used Gilgamesh's story in their own writings. Tablets with the story were found in the temple where the Old Testament was written. And the Hebrew priests also changed things around in the story. See they needed something to help scare the hell out of the hebrew people. They were running amok. Marrying camels and other things. again assuming that the fallable testing that we do is close to accurate to determine this.
the carabao example, thats called adaptation, not evolution. evolution is the changing on a DNA lvl, (adding and removing of genes and chromazones). its a known fact that all animals (including humans) have and can adapt to new environments. no animal or human or other has ever gained a gene or chromazone through evolution. that would be prove of evolution. you cant claim the losing of a chromazone or gene as proof. otherwise you would consider some of the diseases that happen as evolution. do you? most people consider the diseases that effect the DNA a mutation. The carabao is the national animal of the Philippines. And its had alot of research done on it. Its also the national animal of Guam. And sorry but at the genetic level it is now different from the chinese water buffalo. yes, it is different than the chinese water buffalo, different as in it lost some DNA. not changed or increased in DNA.
about the other peoples that were quoted as being before Adam and Eve, youre assuming that the carbon dating (or any other fallable method used) is accurate. so no amount of reasoning is going to be good enough for you. Actually its not carbon dating that tells us this. The Sumerians actually tell us this. Seems they were great record keepers. And their own writings tell us they were around long before adam and eve. Their own history also tells us this. Unless of course you want me to believe that God just sprang them up out of nowhere. One day nothing there, the next a huge civilization with historical records going back some 5,000 years before Adam and Eve. That what your saying? again with the assuming that they were indeed here before Adam and Eve based on fallable info. itnt that called.....reaching or speculation. by the way, i never read anywhere where they wrote, "we were here before Adam and Eve". or "in the year 10000 b.c......".
about the iceage, if you understand the concept of a global wide flood then you understand that the iceage could indeed have happened, albeit, just alot sooner. personnally, i think that it makes more since for it to have happen within the last 6000 yrs, you quoted man hunting the mammoth, the Bible actually mentions him, as well as leviathan, a giant sea monster. wouldnt it make more sense that yes these creatures actually existed during this time? guess what, a global flood would indeed wipe out the dinosaurs. hmmmm...... Sadly for you there were several ice ages. The earth itself tells us this by examining the various levels. And as for a great global flood, if you mean the one in the Bible nope didnt happen. If I remember the Bible correctly, every part of the earth was supposedly covered up to something like 15 cubits (8 meters). tallest point is Mt. Everest. There isnt enough water on/in the whole planet to cover the entire earth. youre right, but there was also water above the earth (reread Genesis) Also if it only rained for 40 days and 40 nights and with the supposed water coming from the ground as well, the pressure created would crush everything. hence the reason nothing lived, and why we have fossils that are created by intense pressure as well as diamonds. Again I am a diver. I know about pressure. We are talking something equivilent to 12,000 PSI. And that is what most water drills and cutters use now. That is a small localised thing to about an inch. Imagine that everywhere. And the boat. Oh that is fun. A 450 foot wooden boat. Yah pretty amazing since the biggest wooden boat ever built was 300ft long and leaked like a freaking sieve. See a wooden boat can only be made just so big before it falls apart. true, but this one was one ordered by God, so im sure that he empowered Noah to be able to build it, and it says that God shut the door, God sealed it. now i know that youre going to call me on the fact that i have no way of proving this. and youre right. im going on faith about this. but im using logic to dictate that faith, because it was God that told Noah to make the Ark in the first place, and if God wanted it done, i doubt that he would have doomed it. it only makes sense. oO and btw, pretty egotistical of us to assume that just because we cant do something, that people long before our time didnt know how to do it. i know that youre just going to tell me how egotistical i am and try to turn it around, but whatever. and youre prolly gonna start saying stuff like theyve proven the Bible false and im just pulling stuff out of thin air, and whathaveya. you have shot down everything that ive said, because you dont wanna listen. you feel like youre right and im wrong, and no amount of talking on either side is going to change that.
in any case, youre going to believe what you wanna believe. i just wanted to put this out there. reemphesising this statement, because there is no way that im going to convince you, and i know that. because despite your preaching of "open your mind", you yourself have closed off your mind to anything that doesnt fit your current assumptions.
I am a realist. While I have found some stories in the Bible are true there have been quite a few that were either wholey not true or very much exaggerated.
dont take my word for it. Look this stuff up yourself. A ton of info out there. Keep an open mind and read. Start at your library. Then move on. You will find alot of surprises on the way. Heck if you want to know about water pressure taking up diving. That is fun and you find alot out.
Kai
thank you for your info. i have studied up on it, and will continue to do so. when and if, science is able to disprove anything in the Bible using an infallable method, i will accept that. because i am openminded. ive been where you are, can you be where i am.
Originally posted by PlanoMM Originally posted by kaibigan34 Originally posted by PlanoMM im fully aware that there are more than just carbon dating. that wasnt me point. me point was that none of the methods used to date rocks and such are 100% accurate. its funny to me that when you can use one method to test a rock you can get one date. use another and get a completely different date, sometimes very different date (think millions of years), and then test it again with the first method and yet again a different date. and instead of saying ok, we dont have a clue as to the actual date of this rock, they just take all 3 tests and average it out, lol. no other science does this. if an instrument was proven to be inaccurate in any other type of experiment, the scientist would stop using the instrument or method and say, ok, that didnt work. First off I am a fossil diver. So I had to learn about dating things. Please research something before you start acting like your an authority. Carbon Dating is only good to 50,000 years back. Not millions. So you wont get millions of years difference. To go further back archeologists use the earth itself and at what level something was found to guess its age. While it wont be exact, and no archeologist would say it was, it will get us in the ball park give or take a million years. Also we would never make three tests and give the average. In fact if we did several tests and they came up with eroneous results we would try a completely different type of test. Again research this next time. i did research things, im not claiming to be an expert on the subject, thats what youre doing. im generalizing. using Carbon dating as an example, because it is one of the most well know methods. and just to clear this up, if you are within a million years of being accurate, and the test says that its a million years old, wouldnt that mean that it could have been made yesterday and that would still be within reason, lol. stupid i know, but still. and again, all, not some of the tests, ALL of the tests are inaccurate. logic dictates that you dont base all of your assumptions on these inaccurate tests. common sense.I am not claiming expertise either. But I have dealt with this in everyday life and have experiance. Far more then you. And by the way Carbon Dating is incredibly accurate. It is as accurate as DNA testing and DNA testing is being accepted by alot if not most of the christian religions. How do we know this? Because everything that has been carbon dated and we have had other means to know the date (IE historical writings and eye witness knowledge) we have been spot on. A test for something that is possibly a million years old doesnt use a test for something that is possibly 100 million years old. the test for something that is suspected to 1 million years old will get us a ballpark figure give or take a few thousand years. Your trying to generalize again and you dont have the knowledge to back it up. Sorry but you dont. kk, on to another issue brought up, i dont wanna get pulled into a theological debate here (cause frankly, i dont really care if you believe like i believe), but i dont know anything that has ever disproven anything out of the Bible. i think youre reaching there. Noah's Flood is a good one. Didnt happen like the Bible said. Didnt even happen when the Bible said. It happened about 2,500 years before that. A sumerian merchant and leader of his village had built a huge boat, by their standards, to move supplies up and down the river near what is now Kuwait. A heavy rain storm hit and started a massive flood. Him and his family retreated to the boat and floated off. They landed back on shore several hundred miles down river. like i pointed out in the original post of mine, i didnt want to be pulled into a theological debate, but since youre going to use this typical example of a flood. please explain fossils of clams on top of Mount Everest. many other examples, but like i already said, i couldnt care less if you believe me. and just like the openedminded that you are, you make the statements of, "Noah's Flood is a good one. Didnt happen like the Bible said." then you site referances that again are assumptions based on fallable tests that are proven inaccurate, as the reasons why youre right and im wrong. fine by me, doesnt bother me in the least if you think that youre right and im wrong. youre not telling me anything new here.I wasnt talking about the fossil on top of everest. I was talking about everest being 5.5 miles above sea level and for the water to have reached that high + 8 meters would be impossible. But thank you for assuming. Gilgamesh heard about this and put it in his Epics of Gilgamesh. These were found in the Library of Asshurbanipal. he changed somethings of course however. Then 600 BC the Hebrew Priests used Gilgamesh's story in their own writings. Tablets with the story were found in the temple where the Old Testament was written. And the Hebrew priests also changed things around in the story. See they needed something to help scare the hell out of the hebrew people. They were running amok. Marrying camels and other things. again assuming that the fallable testing that we do is close to accurate to determine this.Written texts is not fallable tests. The Sumerians wrote their history down. They had a great grasp on time. And it is possible to read what they wrote, calculate their passage of time and figure out when it was written. Again you really need to start researching things.If you have a history book in a school and the last chapter talks about US advisors going to vietnam for the first time and Johnson has just entered the presidential office because of Kennedy being assassinated, then you can surmise fairly easily that history book was written before the Vietnam War. the carabao example, thats called adaptation, not evolution. evolution is the changing on a DNA lvl, (adding and removing of genes and chromazones). its a known fact that all animals (including humans) have and can adapt to new environments. no animal or human or other has ever gained a gene or chromazone through evolution. that would be prove of evolution. you cant claim the losing of a chromazone or gene as proof. otherwise you would consider some of the diseases that happen as evolution. do you? most people consider the diseases that effect the DNA a mutation. The carabao is the national animal of the Philippines. And its had alot of research done on it. Its also the national animal of Guam. And sorry but at the genetic level it is now different from the chinese water buffalo. yes, it is different than the chinese water buffalo, different as in it lost some DNA. not changed or increased in DNA.Ok I see what your doing. Arguing semantics. Ok nevermind. Another one of those "I only see what I already believe" people. I get it now.How about American Indians then? Their genetic make up is so close to asians its almost scary. They came from asians and in part from middle eastern stock. So how did they get to america? Remember the land bridge sunk some 12,000 years ago. Even if you want to try to argue that it didnt and archeologists are wrong you still have to say that the Asians ran day in and day out for years to get as far south as Argentina in time to start writing their own history. So explain that.... about the other peoples that were quoted as being before Adam and Eve, youre assuming that the carbon dating (or any other fallable method used) is accurate. so no amount of reasoning is going to be good enough for you. Actually its not carbon dating that tells us this. The Sumerians actually tell us this. Seems they were great record keepers. And their own writings tell us they were around long before adam and eve. Their own history also tells us this. Unless of course you want me to believe that God just sprang them up out of nowhere. One day nothing there, the next a huge civilization with historical records going back some 5,000 years before Adam and Eve. That what your saying? again with the assuming that they were indeed here before Adam and Eve based on fallable info. itnt that called.....reaching or speculation. by the way, i never read anywhere where they wrote, "we were here before Adam and Eve". or "in the year 10000 b.c......".They had a way to track passage of time just like everyone else. You just have to translate it into our time. That is all. You find a relative date in their tablets that coincides with something we definately know the date of and go back in time. What is funny is we used events in the Bible to help us find the dates. about the iceage, if you understand the concept of a global wide flood then you understand that the iceage could indeed have happened, albeit, just alot sooner. personnally, i think that it makes more since for it to have happen within the last 6000 yrs, you quoted man hunting the mammoth, the Bible actually mentions him, as well as leviathan, a giant sea monster. wouldnt it make more sense that yes these creatures actually existed during this time? guess what, a global flood would indeed wipe out the dinosaurs. hmmmm...... Sadly for you there were several ice ages. The earth itself tells us this by examining the various levels. And as for a great global flood, if you mean the one in the Bible nope didnt happen. If I remember the Bible correctly, every part of the earth was supposedly covered up to something like 15 cubits (8 meters). tallest point is Mt. Everest. There isnt enough water on/in the whole planet to cover the entire earth. youre right, but there was also water above the earth (reread Genesis) Also if it only rained for 40 days and 40 nights and with the supposed water coming from the ground as well, the pressure created would crush everything. hence the reason nothing lived, and why we have fossils that are created by intense pressure as well as diamonds. Again I am a diver. I know about pressure. We are talking something equivilent to 12,000 PSI. And that is what most water drills and cutters use now. That is a small localised thing to about an inch. Imagine that everywhere. And the boat. Oh that is fun. A 450 foot wooden boat. Yah pretty amazing since the biggest wooden boat ever built was 300ft long and leaked like a freaking sieve. See a wooden boat can only be made just so big before it falls apart. true, but this one was one ordered by God, so im sure that he empowered Noah to be able to build it, and it says that God shut the door, God sealed it. now i know that youre going to call me on the fact that i have no way of proving this. and youre right. im going on faith about this. but im using logic to dictate that faith, because it was God that told Noah to make the Ark in the first place, and if God wanted it done, i doubt that he would have doomed it. it only makes sense. oO and btw, pretty egotistical of us to assume that just because we cant do something, that people long before our time didnt know how to do it.Egotistical of us to assume its immpossible because they might be able to do it? Um ok show me any boats that were found that were 450 ft long from that date. Show me any boats found from that time that were half that long. Oh yah you cant. Because they dont exist.Not to mention what happened to God works in mysterious ways and he is like a thief in the night? Hmmmm massive flood covering the entire earth? Not very mysterious and if a thief did anything like that they would have been caught the first time.Yes I am going to call you on it because you cant prove it. But I can prove my side. You bring solid proof and we are done. you win. Until then your just grasping at straws again. in any case, youre going to believe what you wanna believe. i just wanted to put this out there. reemphesising this statement, because there is no way that im going to convince you, and i know that. because despite your preaching of "open your mind", you yourself have closed off your mind to anything that doesnt fit your current assumptions.I have an open mind. But you havent given me anything even remotely creditable to even begin trying to consider your side of the discussion. You say that carbon dating make mistakes up to one million years and I know for a fact it cant because its not used to date anything that could be more then 50,000 years old. Then you say you were just using that as an example. And you follow that by saying I dont have open mind? Your the one trying to use complete bias comments to prove your side of the discussion. How in the hell am I supposed to be open to that?
I am a realist. While I have found some stories in the Bible are true there have been quite a few that were either wholey not true or very much exaggerated.
dont take my word for it. Look this stuff up yourself. A ton of info out there. Keep an open mind and read. Start at your library. Then move on. You will find alot of surprises on the way. Heck if you want to know about water pressure taking up diving. That is fun and you find alot out.
Kai thank you for your info. i have studied up on it, and will continue to do so. when and if, science is able to disprove anything in the Bible using an infallable method, i will accept that. because i am openminded. ive been where you are, can you be where i am. That is the problem. They have disproved several things and people like you then start pulling stuff out of thin air so you dont have to admit it. What is really hilarious is that these same tests and researches done have proven some of the events in the Bible did happen. And these same people are quick to use that to boast how God exists. Basically people like you will be quick to get behind scientists when its convenient but when they find something you dont agree with you automatically start throwing excuses.
I will give you definate proof that the Bible in any form is innacurate. It was written by men. There you go. Men are fallible. And men wrote the Bible. Men editted the Bible. Men translated the Bible. Heck men even decided what books to keep and throw away when it was being put together. Now your next reply will be that the Bible was God's Will. You cant sit there and tell me that out of the thousands involved in writing, editing, translating, and putting the Bible together, that there wasnt one single person that had other ulterior motives. Or that some book or passage that was definately God's Will was not left out. That in and of itself shows that the Bible is inaccurate.
Heck look at the translations part. There is a huge problem just in that. The whole concept of the Bible can be changed because someone got one word mistranslated. Taking judging for example. In the newest versions it says judging is wrong. But in the original translations it says its right to do so just do it with an open mind. Common sense even tells us we have to judge. If we dont judge then we cant even try to find out what is right and wrong. What is good and evil. We would sin even more if we didnt judge then if we did and it was a sin to judge. But that is just one example. There are several others.
First off I am a fossil diver. So I had to learn about dating things. Please research something before you start acting like your an authority. Carbon Dating is only good to 50,000 years back. Not millions. Why are you guys talking about the dating of rocks with the Carbon dating method?? I didn't even read the rest of the debate..because this cought my eye, carbon dating is only used on things that were alive at some point.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Draenor Originally posted by kaibigan34 First off I am a fossil diver. So I had to learn about dating things. Please research something before you start acting like your an authority. Carbon Dating is only good to 50,000 years back. Not millions. Why are you guys talking about the dating of rocks with the Carbon dating method?? I didn't even read the rest of the debate..because this cought my eye, carbon dating is only used on things that were alive at some point.
I am not talking about dating rocks. Carbon Dating is actually a very limited use procedure to find a date. The item being dated must be organic and found in an inclosed space. I had to learn about all dating techniques in my work. Plano wants me to believe that carbon dating and all dating techniques are completely wrong.
Originally posted by PlanoMM im fully aware that there are more than just carbon dating. that wasnt me point. me point was that none of the methods used to date rocks and such are 100% accurate. its funny to me that when you can use one method to test a rock you can get one date. use another and get a completely different date, sometimes very different date (think millions of years), and then test it again with the first method and yet again a different date. and instead of saying ok, we dont have a clue as to the actual date of this rock, they just take all 3 tests and average it out, lol. no other science does this. if an instrument was proven to be inaccurate in any other type of experiment, the scientist would stop using the instrument or method and say, ok, that didnt work. First off I am a fossil diver. So I had to learn about dating things. Please research something before you start acting like your an authority. Carbon Dating is only good to 50,000 years back. Not millions. So you wont get millions of years difference. To go further back archeologists use the earth itself and at what level something was found to guess its age. While it wont be exact, and no archeologist would say it was, it will get us in the ball park give or take a million years. Also we would never make three tests and give the average. In fact if we did several tests and they came up with eroneous results we would try a completely different type of test. Again research this next time. i did research things, im not claiming to be an expert on the subject, thats what youre doing. im generalizing. using Carbon dating as an example, because it is one of the most well know methods. and just to clear this up, if you are within a million years of being accurate, and the test says that its a million years old, wouldnt that mean that it could have been made yesterday and that would still be within reason, lol. stupid i know, but still. and again, all, not some of the tests, ALL of the tests are inaccurate. logic dictates that you dont base all of your assumptions on these inaccurate tests. common sense. I am not claiming expertise either. But I have dealt with this in everyday life and have experiance. Far more then you. And by the way Carbon Dating is incredibly accurate. It is as accurate as DNA testing and DNA testing is being accepted by alot if not most of the christian religions. How do we know this? Because everything that has been carbon dated and we have had other means to know the date (IE historical writings and eye witness knowledge) we have been spot on.
A test for something that is possibly a million years old doesnt use a test for something that is possibly 100 million years old. the test for something that is suspected to 1 million years old will get us a ballpark figure give or take a few thousand years. Your trying to generalize again and you dont have the knowledge to back it up. Sorry but you dont. again with the ballpark figure, lol. i never claimed all knowledge, and im not telling you what to believe, however; you are doing that to me. i know what i believe and again, i dont really care if you believe the same. the only reason im still answering you is because some of your answers are humorous to me. no offense, but its all expected from a "science is right, the Bible is wrong" advocate. ive already been where you are. youre the one that says, "i know more than you do". wow, im convinced. (sarcasm intentional).
kk, on to another issue brought up, i dont wanna get pulled into a theological debate here (cause frankly, i dont really care if you believe like i believe), but i dont know anything that has ever disproven anything out of the Bible. i think youre reaching there. Noah's Flood is a good one. Didnt happen like the Bible said. Didnt even happen when the Bible said. It happened about 2,500 years before that. A sumerian merchant and leader of his village had built a huge boat, by their standards, to move supplies up and down the river near what is now Kuwait. A heavy rain storm hit and started a massive flood. Him and his family retreated to the boat and floated off. They landed back on shore several hundred miles down river. like i pointed out in the original post of mine, i didnt want to be pulled into a theological debate, but since youre going to use this typical example of a flood. please explain fossils of clams on top of Mount Everest. many other examples, but like i already said, i couldnt care less if you believe me. and just like the openedminded that you are, you make the statements of, "Noah's Flood is a good one. Didnt happen like the Bible said." then you site referances that again are assumptions based on fallable tests that are proven inaccurate, as the reasons why youre right and im wrong. fine by me, doesnt bother me in the least if you think that youre right and im wrong. youre not telling me anything new here. I wasnt talking about the fossil on top of everest. I was talking about everest being 5.5 miles above sea level and for the water to have reached that high + 8 meters would be impossible. But thank you for assuming.
Gilgamesh heard about this and put it in his Epics of Gilgamesh. These were found in the Library of Asshurbanipal. he changed somethings of course however. Then 600 BC the Hebrew Priests used Gilgamesh's story in their own writings. Tablets with the story were found in the temple where the Old Testament was written. And the Hebrew priests also changed things around in the story. See they needed something to help scare the hell out of the hebrew people. They were running amok. Marrying camels and other things. again assuming that the fallable testing that we do is close to accurate to determine this. Written texts is not fallable tests. rightttttt...so if i write something down that i copied off of someone else and claim its mine, that means i wrote it first? The Sumerians wrote their history down. They had a great grasp on time. And it is possible to read what they wrote, calculate their passage of time and figure out when it was written. Again you really need to start researching things. If you have a history book in a school yeah, and we all know that the history books from school are infallable, eh? and the last chapter talks about US advisors going to vietnam for the first time and Johnson has just entered the presidential office because of Kennedy being assassinated, then you can surmise fairly easily that history book was written before the Vietnam War.
the carabao example, thats called adaptation, not evolution. evolution is the changing on a DNA lvl, (adding and removing of genes and chromazones). its a known fact that all animals (including humans) have and can adapt to new environments. no animal or human or other has ever gained a gene or chromazone through evolution. that would be prove of evolution. you cant claim the losing of a chromazone or gene as proof. otherwise you would consider some of the diseases that happen as evolution. do you? most people consider the diseases that effect the DNA a mutation. The carabao is the national animal of the Philippines. And its had alot of research done on it. Its also the national animal of Guam. And sorry but at the genetic level it is now different from the chinese water buffalo. yes, it is different than the chinese water buffalo, different as in it lost some DNA. not changed or increased in DNA. Ok I see what your doing. Arguing semantics. Ok nevermind. Another one of those "I only see what I already believe" people. I get it now. ummm.....thats what youre doing. im pointing out the facts. How about American Indians then? Their genetic make up is so close to asians its almost scary. They came from asians and in part from middle eastern stock. So how did they get to america? Remember the land bridge sunk some 12,000 years ago. Even if you want to try to argue that it didnt and archeologists are wrong you still have to say that the Asians ran day in and day out for years to get as far south as Argentina in time to start writing their own history. So explain that.... fairly easy really, youve heard of the panagea(bad spelling i know, but you know what im referring to), well, its easy to see how if all the continents were together, the humans would be pretty spread out already. kinda like the fact that you can find animals on both the south american continent and africa that we know were strictly found on one or the other. some of these things that scientists say take millions of years to happen, have happened within years, sometimes days and weeks.
about the other peoples that were quoted as being before Adam and Eve, youre assuming that the carbon dating (or any other fallable method used) is accurate. so no amount of reasoning is going to be good enough for you. Actually its not carbon dating that tells us this. The Sumerians actually tell us this. Seems they were great record keepers. And their own writings tell us they were around long before adam and eve. Their own history also tells us this. Unless of course you want me to believe that God just sprang them up out of nowhere. One day nothing there, the next a huge civilization with historical records going back some 5,000 years before Adam and Eve. That what your saying? again with the assuming that they were indeed here before Adam and Eve based on fallable info. itnt that called.....reaching or speculation. by the way, i never read anywhere where they wrote, "we were here before Adam and Eve". or "in the year 10000 b.c......". They had a way to track passage of time just like everyone else. You just have to translate it into our time. That is all. You find a relative date in their tablets that coincides with something we definately know the date of and go back in time. What is funny is we used events in the Bible to help us find the dates. yet then you say that the events in the Bible didnt happen, lol. "i dont like this one, cause if its true then what i feel would be wrong and id have to change me belief system, so lets throw it out."
about the iceage, if you understand the concept of a global wide flood then you understand that the iceage could indeed have happened, albeit, just alot sooner. personnally, i think that it makes more since for it to have happen within the last 6000 yrs, you quoted man hunting the mammoth, the Bible actually mentions him, as well as leviathan, a giant sea monster. wouldnt it make more sense that yes these creatures actually existed during this time? guess what, a global flood would indeed wipe out the dinosaurs. hmmmm...... Sadly for you there were several ice ages. The earth itself tells us this by examining the various levels. And as for a great global flood, if you mean the one in the Bible nope didnt happen. If I remember the Bible correctly, every part of the earth was supposedly covered up to something like 15 cubits (8 meters). tallest point is Mt. Everest. There isnt enough water on/in the whole planet to cover the entire earth. youre right, but there was also water above the earth (reread Genesis) Also if it only rained for 40 days and 40 nights and with the supposed water coming from the ground as well, the pressure created would crush everything. hence the reason nothing lived, and why we have fossils that are created by intense pressure as well as diamonds. Again I am a diver. I know about pressure. We are talking something equivilent to 12,000 PSI. And that is what most water drills and cutters use now. That is a small localised thing to about an inch. Imagine that everywhere. And the boat. Oh that is fun. A 450 foot wooden boat. Yah pretty amazing since the biggest wooden boat ever built was 300ft long and leaked like a freaking sieve. See a wooden boat can only be made just so big before it falls apart. true, but this one was one ordered by God, so im sure that he empowered Noah to be able to build it, and it says that God shut the door, God sealed it. now i know that youre going to call me on the fact that i have no way of proving this. and youre right. im going on faith about this. but im using logic to dictate that faith, because it was God that told Noah to make the Ark in the first place, and if God wanted it done, i doubt that he would have doomed it. it only makes sense. oO and btw, pretty egotistical of us to assume that just because we cant do something, that people long before our time didnt know how to do it. Egotistical of us to assume its immpossible because they might be able to do it? Um ok show me any boats that were found that were 450 ft long from that date. Show me any boats found from that time that were half that long. Oh yah you cant. Because they dont exist. show me Adam and Eves remains. you cant can you, does that mean they never existed? show me any remains of a boat from 3000 years ago. can you? i dont know of any in existence. does that mean that people never cross a river or lake or body of water back then? asking for a 450 fl boat from that era is kinda like asking for a house made from straw from that era. i really doubt that its still in one piece. you know it has been several thousand years, right? Not to mention what happened to God works in mysterious ways and he is like a thief in the night? Hmmmm massive flood covering the entire earth? Not very mysterious and if a thief did anything like that they would have been caught the first time. taken completely out of context, therefore does not apply. Yes I am going to call you on it because you cant prove it. But I can prove my side. You bring solid proof and we are done. you win. Until then your just grasping at straws again. nothing solid about, "its so, because me and me scientist friends say so." you havent proven anything. and if i had "solid" proof, i doubt you would need to see it to be done. i never claimed to have "solid" proof, thats what youre doing.
in any case, youre going to believe what you wanna believe. i just wanted to put this out there. reemphesising this statement, because there is no way that im going to convince you, and i know that. because despite your preaching of "open your mind", you yourself have closed off your mind to anything that doesnt fit your current assumptions.
I am a realist. While I have found some stories in the Bible are true there have been quite a few that were either wholey not true or very much exaggerated.
dont take my word for it. Look this stuff up yourself. A ton of info out there. Keep an open mind and read. Start at your library. Then move on. You will find alot of surprises on the way. Heck if you want to know about water pressure taking up diving. That is fun and you find alot out.
Kai
thank you for your info. i have studied up on it, and will continue to do so. when and if, science is able to disprove anything in the Bible using an infallable method, i will accept that. because i am openminded. ive been where you are, can you be where i am.
That is the problem. They have disproved several things and people like you then start pulling stuff out of thin air so you dont have to admit it. What is really hilarious is that these same tests and researches done have proven some of the events in the Bible did happen. And these same people are quick to use that to boast how God exists. itnt that exactly what youre doing here, saying that this is true in the Bible and this isnt?Basically people like you will be quick to get behind scientists when its convenient but when they find something you dont agree with you automatically start throwing excuses. ive yet to throw any accuses, lol. talk about grasping at straws.
I will give you definate proof that the Bible in any form is innacurate. It was written by men. this is true, but so is your precious science text books. its a known fact that science not 100% accurate. your own scientist will admit that when a theory is disproven, they throw it out, or change it to fit a new updated model. yeah, thats what we should trust in. There you go. Men are fallible. And men wrote the Bible. Men editted the Bible. Men translated the Bible. Heck men even decided what books to keep and throw away when it was being put together. Now your next reply will be that the Bible was God's Will. actually this wasnt even close to what me next reply was going to be, lol. im rather enjoying this.....whatever you wanna call it. as long as you dont get all mad at me and start calling me names, i could do this all night. You cant sit there and tell me that out of the thousands involved in writing, editing, translating, and putting the Bible together, that there wasnt one single person that had other ulterior motives. Or that some book or passage that was definately God's Will was not left out. That in and of itself shows that the Bible is inaccurate. yeppers, and scientists never have ulterior motives, eh? lol. and some "churches and organizations" never have ulterior motives when referancing the Bible, eh?
Heck look at the translations part. There is a huge problem just in that. The whole concept of the Bible can be changed because someone got one word mistranslated. Taking judging for example. In the newest versions it says judging is wrong. But in the original translations it says its right to do so just do it with an open mind. Common sense even tells us we have to judge. If we dont judge then we cant even try to find out what is right and wrong. What is good and evil. We would sin even more if we didnt judge then if we did and it was a sin to judge. But that is just one example. There are several others.
again, taking this out of context. two different meanings for the word judgement that youre using there. anyone that has actually read all of the Bible knows that.
Kai
like i already said, youre not going to convince me of anything, and im not going to convince you of anything. so we have two choices here, either we can agree to disagree (cause i already said that i dont care if you believe me), or we can continue this discussion, throwing back and forth our best examples and proofs to try to presuade the other. now im all for the second one to be honest, because im not so naive to believe that im all knowing. but if the best that you can come up with is, "i know more than you, and thats proof." then we might as well end it here. your choice, friend.
like i already said, youre not going to convince me of anything, and im not going to convince you of anything. so we have two choices here, either we can agree to disagree (cause i already said that i dont care if you believe me), or we can continue this discussion, throwing back and forth our best examples and proofs to try to presuade the other. now im all for the second one to be honest, because im not so naive to believe that im all knowing. but if the best that you can come up with is, "i know more than you, and thats proof." then we might as well end it here. your choice, friend. You havent given me anything to go on here. You sit here and say I am closed minded but your not helping me here one bit. All your doing is saying hearsay and stuff you read on the back of a wheaties box and coming off like your freaking Horner himself.
First the whole thing about showing you a boat 3,000 years old. Well when I was in Kuwait, after the first time the military went there to play with our toys in the sand, i went to a museum. And in that museum was...can you guess? Yep a boat from 3,000 years ago. Enclosed in a case. they built the museum on top of it. But its there. Anymore straws you want to grasp at there?
You dont seem to get it one bit. I have been to labs where dating is done. I have watched them. I have talked to these guys. I know how its done. Did you know that all items dated have what is called a confidence rating? Bet you didnt know that. A lab will do several tests. Not just one. Several different types too. Each item then gets a confidence rating. No lab, no scholar, no archeologist will accept a date that is less then 95%. If it comes up lower they do it again. And again. Until they get an accurate date that is at least 95% accurate. And if it is inaccurate its not by much.
Now most items get a 99% rating. So meeting you half way that means there is a 3% margin for error. But your saying that is perfect evidence that 100% of all results are completely and totally wrong. See what I am getting at? Your looking at a glass with only a drop of water in it and saying its completely full or looking at a glass with a sip of water gone and saying its completely empty. Then your actually trying to sit there and tell me I am the one without an open mind..... Your basically saying that because there is a incredibly slim chance that a date might be wrong that means they are all completely wrong and your justified in keeping your mind closed.
Oh and I never said the Bible was completely wrong. As I said there is definate hard evidence of alot of the events in the Bible happening. But some didnt happen.
And your not pointing out a single fact. Alot of this your just pulling out of thin air. You say "I am stating facts" but your that one that said C-14 dating can be wrong by up to a million years and that is completely and totally wrong. C-14 has a very limited use to begin with as I said a bit ago. But you are just generalizing that all dating methods are 100% wrong. And sadly they wont ever be proven 100% correct to you unless its to back up something you believe.
Do you think I enjoyed finding out alot of what I had grown to believe was false? No I didnt. I hated it. I was right there where you are once. And I tried just like you to stick my fingers in my ears, close my eyes, and shout "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU! LALALALA". But guess what happened. I opened my mind. I started reading and researching both sides of the fence. And I came to a realization. Not that God is false. But that God does exist. He would have to to keep something like this complex world going. It made my faith in a supreme being even stronger. Because I accepted that not everything is what I believe.
I have kept my mind open but you have given me absolutely nothing to work with here. So please stop saying I have a closed mind when your the one that cant accept anything.
Originally posted by BlazinBlades Originally posted by LilithIshtar Originally posted by PlanoMM in this day and age, its so popular just to make up your own religion. "if i dont like that part, ill just pretend that it doesnt matter." if you dont want to know the truth, you wont ever know the truth. but the truth is there, hidden right out in front of you. some truthes are harder to take than others. but it doesnt make them any less true. now im no professing preacher, but i do know a thing or two about the Bible and God. ive done me homework on other religions. in fact, ive studied all the religions of the world. i know what i know. simple as that. i dont have anything to prove to anyone. if you have to be convinced, then youre not going to hold onto it anyway. the truth about God, while it can be taught, has to be revealed to you by God before you will accept it as truth. as far as the AnswersinGenesis.org, no you didnt check the site. cause if you had, you would realize that it is completely in opposition to evolution. i believe in creationism, not evolution. im not trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating what i believe. but if you give the creationism website a chance and actually read what it says, you may be surprised by what you find. if not, sorry about your luck. i find it so ironic that the evolutionists and atheists and antichristians accuse christians of being closedminded, but ive yet to find a evolutionist that gives creationism a second look. they quote things like "rocks have been around for millions and millions of years, this proves creationism wrong." haha. kk, so carbon dating is 100% accurate now? anyway, sorry to go off on the tangent there.
You do realize there is more than one way to date the age of the planet, correct? Carbon dating is just one of many.
And nothing can ever been 100% accurate.
That's like saying "Omg, it failed! So it musn't be true!!" Yea okay Lol.
I bet many people believe the iceage never happened either. And that was over 10,000 years ago.
The present ice age began 40 million years ago with the growth of an ice sheet in Antarctica, but intensified during the Pleistocene (starting around 3 million years ago) with the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000 and 100,000 year time scales. The last glacial period ended about ten thousand years ago.
Keep in mind, man was alive before 10,000 years ago. We walked and hunted the mammoths, etc.
Heh.
Are we talking about Cave men here?? Bring it on down now.
Um no. And if you did your research, you would of known that.
Jesus, too much multicolored text for me to even try to get caught up. Get a room!
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
lol, some people just have to prove everyone else wrong, they just cant accept that they might be wrong. and they cant accept that they cant convince someone of their viewpoint. and they have to have the last word. just watch how this happens, ill stop posting and hell have to post one more time just to one up me. lol. its so funny. hes getting so mad over this, lol. get this through your openminded head, i dont care if you believe me. im not trying to convince you of crap. youre trying to convince me. and all that youve given me is, "i know what im talking about, ive seen the labs, ive been there when it was done, so everything i say is fact and youre just stupid if you dont take what i say as fact." the same crap that people just like you have done for hundreds of years. bottomline, if you wanna continue an adult conversation, im all for it. but if you have to be told that youre right and im wrong, well, fine. Youre right and im wrong.....lol, does that make you feel more superior? even if i dont mean it. lol, sorry, but your sense of proof is just so funny to me. "thats the way it is and if you dont accept it then youre just closedminded." lol, w/e.
science conducted by men. men are fallable. science=fallable? its the same sorry equation you gave me about the Bible, remember. Oo and i never said that i completely disagree with all science. just certain assumptions made by scientists.
btw, ive yet to insult you or your inteligence, yet you have done so with every post that you have made. if you cant present evidence without insulting someone, how can you expect us to believe that you can actually reason well enough to know the difference between truth and heresay.
I am in complete and utter shock that someone on this forum other than myself is involved an a debate about evolution and dating methods....I'm gonna go watch Family Guy.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by PlanoMM lol, some people just have to prove everyone else wrong, they just cant accept that they might be wrong. and they cant accept that they cant convince someone of their viewpoint. its so funny. hes getting so mad over this, lol. get this through your openminded head, i dont care if you believe me. im not trying to convince you of crap. youre trying to convince me. and all that youve given me is, "i know what im talking about, ive seen the labs, ive been there when it was done, so everything i say is fact and youre just stupid if you dont take what i say as fact." the same crap that people just like you have done for hundreds of years. bottomline, if you wanna continue an adult conversation, im all for it. but if you have to be told that youre right and im wrong, well, fine. Youre right and im wrong.....lol, does that make you feel more superior? even if i dont mean it. lol, sorry, but your sense of proof is just so funny to me. "thats the way it is and if you dont accept it then youre just closedminded." lol, w/e. science conducted by men. men are fallable. science=fallable? its the same sorry equation you gave me about the Bible, remember. Oo and i never said that i completely disagree with all science. just certain assumptions made by scientists. btw, ive yet to insult you or your inteligence, yet you have done so with every post that you have made. if you cant present evidence without insulting someone, how can you expect us to believe that you can actually reason well enough to know the difference between truth and heresay.
Actually I have one thing for you. "Come in pot! This is kettle! Over!".
Me mad? Heck no. I am seriously enjoying this. You say you dont care if I believe you. Then why do you keep going? Why do you keep replying? Say what you think and move on. But no you dont. You keep on and on. Its quite enjoyable to read your very predictable replies. If it wasnt for you replying my day wouldnt have been so fun. So please keep going.
Now lets talk about something else you said before we continue. You said the thing about plate tectonics. About how they could have done all that movement in just a few days. So now not only are you saying dating methods are completely wrong your now saying that physics is crap too. The plates move between 2 and 10cm per year. Remember the tsunami that hit india? How about the earthquake in Mexico City? Wanna know why that happened? The plates build up too much pressure and snap. They do that alot. There is over a million earthquakes per year. So your saying that it all happened in just a few days. Imagine all those earthquakes from all that movement crammed down into just a few days or even weeks. Want proof of what would happen?
This is nice experiment you can do in your own kitchen. I did this one in school. Go and boil several eggs. When they are done and cooled take one and crack it. Dont peel it but make sure you got something that looks like plates. (That is why I said cook a few.) Now put that egg under warm water and try to move the "plates" as fast as you can with your fingers. Dont push in. Push side to side. And remember be fast because you said this all happened in a few days or weeks. So what happened? Thats right! The egg was torn apart. The laws of physics and motion tell us this.
Of course you will reply again with something about how God protected the earth or some such thing. Darn convenient for you I must say. I wish I could do that. I wish I could just say "God" and use him as a cop out everytime something came close to dashing my beliefs but sadly I cant. See I was given this great ability by God. Its called reasoning. And its a curse. I cant just put up the "God" excuse to save my beliefs. I have to actually study something and reason it out. Because that is what God wants me to do. To figure things out. Your lucky. He must want you to just deny all sense of reason and never actually try to figure anything out.
Anyway back to the discussion. I am going to say this one last time for the cheap seats. You have yet to give me anything to work with. You just throw up "God" everytime and decry everything I put up without any consideration. I am sitting here, Bible near me and other books trying to find even onething that backs up what your saying. So far I have found nothing. So come on man. If your going to keep discussing this at least give me a bone here. Give me something tangible I can at least read. Oh wait thats right. You cant PROVE any of this. You just know its true. And I have to accept that. On what? What have you given me to at least semi prove anything you say besides your word? Thats right nothing. I have at least thrown you things to go look up on your own. you want book titles? Papers written? I can list those as well. Up to you.
Anyway have fun. Cant wait to read your next reply. Kai
Not to be a big fat Buttinskii...but Kai, weren't you the one debating me about Catholicism in another thread? Weren't you the one who was talking about knowing more about the Bible than I do? Weren't you the one who is Catholic, and follows the "Catholic Bible" ?
Correct me if I'm wrong...or show me where I'm mistaken...but as the devout Catholic that you seem to be, how is it that you justify a belief that Genesis is a lie? I don't believe that your Catholic Bible teaches that the Earth was created over billions of years, and that Humans somehow evolved from other animals. According to you, the Catholic Bible was the origional one...and since you seem to claim to know so much about it, you will also know that the Hebrew used in Genesis is used to denote literal translation, not metaphor. So what I am getting from you is this: You are a devout Catholic, who is willing to defend his Catholic beliefs regarding various Catholic sacraments, but you believe that the book of Genesis is a lie.
Knowing what I just told you about the Hebrew in Genesis, that is all that there is left to believe...knowing that the Bible means 6 days when it says 6 days...it renders the whole "God is on a different time scale" theory useless doesn't it? So where does that leave your faith? So you believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that he died on a cross so that your sins may be forgiven, but you believe that Genesis is just a bunch of hooey? Explain how you justify your vast knowledge of the Bible, coupled with your disbelief of Genesis itself, also coupled with your belief in Jesus Christ?
Tell me where I'm going wrong here, or are you not even a Catholic and has this all been for nothing?
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
You do realize there is more than one way to date the age of the planet, correct? Carbon dating is just one of many.
mmmm...Lilith...Carbon dating can't be used to measure the age of the planet because Carbon dating only works on things that were alive at some point...and since you believe that the Earth is more than 50,000 years old, it doesn't work anyway because that is the limit of Carbon dating.
And nothing can ever been 100% accurate.
very much agreed...but when the margins of error and variance are as large as they are in current dating techniques used on fossils, I tend to toss them aside as useless supposition anyway.
That's like saying "Omg, it failed! So it musn't be true!!" Yea okay Lol.
well when it fails time and time again and yields different results every time...what else can we assume but that they are wholy innacurate?
I bet many people believe the iceage never happened either. And that was over 10,000 years ago.
This really shows your lack of knowledge of what creationists believe. We believe that there was an ice-age...we believe that the Iceage took place sometime around the Book of Job(which makes numerous references to how cold it was, something unusual for the Bible to denote weather conditions)...and is very conducive to a belief in a global flood as well. As far as Mammoths, are you aware that the ancient egyptians actually painted pictures of Mammoths? In a tomb with information about the ivory trade of ancient egypt there are paintings of elephant like creatures with features remarkably similar to Mammoths, but not elephants(a more prominantly domed skull, and of course the unusually large tusks) This is quite conducive to a theory that the mammoths did not die out tens of thousands of years ago, but rather a few thousand years ago...there are also various depictions of Mammoths made by the Anasazi indians.(who lived in the American south west, no Elephant mistake excuse for them)
Keep in mind, man was alive before 10,000 years ago. We walked and hunted the mammoths, etc.
uh huh, prove it, I just gave you evidence to the contrary, as it pertains to my personal belief that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, due to your belief that the Ice Age happened tens of thousands of years ago, and my evidence of Mammoth depictions, I look forward to your explanation.
Heh.
indeed
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
lmao, hows the weather there in your little world, Kai. sorry, i couldnt resist. everything that ive said, youve applied your "thats not true because science tells us" logic to it. so whats the point in continuing this, really. i am truly glad that its been as enjoyable for you as it has been for me. i really do enjoy discussing things like this with someone that actually can reason and discuss without the need to get upset. im done posting, but if you wanna continue this, you can send me a pm. im going to bed now, so i wont be replying anymore. Oo and ive already said this, but i keep replying because im actually enjoying this. not because i actually expect you to take me words seriously. in fact, you pretty much followed the exact mold that evolutionists and such usually follow. except you havent gotten mad. thats kinda new for the evolutionists side. usually when i have a detailed convo with an evolutionist, they usually end it with, "youre so stupid if you dont believe in evolution, cause, cause,....its just fact, and thats it. so, ha." lol. so for real, its been a pleasure. im going to bed now, if you wanna keep this going, pm me. i think everyone else has had enough of us, lol.
as a side note though, if me replies were so predictable, how come every attempt at predicting them as failed. ive yet to use God as a "cop out" or say that its true just because i believe it. thats what you have been doing, ironic that you accuse me of what youre doing. of course, you dont believe that thats what you were doing.
watch this: Darn convenient for you I must say. I wish I could do that. I wish I could just say "Science" and use it as a cop out everytime something came close to dashing my beliefs but sadly I cant. see, its works the other way too, lol.
in any case, since you keep saying you want something to study up on, www.answersingenesis.org. im too lazy and dont really care too much to find and give you anymore to "study", than that. enjoy.
Originally posted by PlanoMM lmao, hows the weather there in your little world, Kai. sorry, i couldnt resist. everything that ive said, youve applied your "thats not true because science tells us" logic to it. so whats the point in continuing this, really. i am truly glad that its been as enjoyable for you as it has been for me. i really do enjoy discussing things like this with someone that actually can reason and discuss without the need to get upset. im done posting, but if you wanna continue this, you can send me a pm. im going to bed now, so i wont be replying anymore. Oo and ive already said this, but i keep replying because im actually enjoying this. not because i actually expect you to take me words seriously. in fact, you pretty much followed the exact mold that evolutionists and such usually follow. except you havent gotten mad. thats kinda new for the evolutionists side. usually when i have a detailed convo with an evolutionist, they usually end it with, "youre so stupid if you dont believe in evolution, cause, cause,....its just fact, and thats it. so, ha." lol. so for real, its been a pleasure. im going to bed now, if you wanna keep this going, pm me. i think everyone else has had enough of us, lol. as a side note though, if me replies were so predictable, how come every attempt at predicting them as failed. ive yet to use God as a "cop out" or say that its true just because i believe it. thats what you have been doing, ironic that you accuse me of what youre doing. of course, you dont believe that thats what you were doing. watch this: Darn convenient for you I must say. I wish I could do that. I wish I could just say "Science" and use it as a cop out everytime something came close to dashing my beliefs but sadly I cant. see, its works the other way too, lol.in any case, since you keep saying you want something to study up on, www.answersingenesis.org. im too lazy and dont really care too much to find and give you anymore to "study", than that. enjoy.
Sorry websites dont count or I would have posted a ton of links by now. Any old hack with a copy of webweaver and a little skill could make a very convincing website. I want books. I want papers. I want names of people to talk to in the know.
But I think I found something. This might be more to your level. Reading through some of my old papers from grade school. Science has never been able to completely prove anything. That is a fact. Scientist have to approach their theories with alot of skepticism. They have to try to disprove every theory. They have to take a theory then do everything possible to make it untrue. With me so far? Well basically what we have is the theory of evolution and the theory of a billion year old earth. Ready for a shock? No one has been able to disprove either. Plain and simple and to the point.
Now lets take the same approach with the Bible and some of the things in it. Science has given credability to some events. But has disproven others. And that is how it works. You take something then try hard as you can to disprove it. Take th Noah story. Its been disproven. Its done. Its a nice story and it does what it is supposed to do but its a story nothing more. Even Hebrew scholars are coming out of the woodwork and admitting its just a story meant to scare people to make them straighten up and fly right.
You say I am like every other evolutionist you have met except I dont get mad. Too bad. I am not an evolutionist. I am a realist. But I have met several people just like you. Creationists are more then willing to accept a science that backs up their claims and even more willing to denounce any science that doesnt. I have met more then a few followers of creationism and they are just like that. I even got one of them to throw a punch at me before because I caught him with his own words.
Sadly we can continue this discussion but it wont go anywhere. I am more then willing to believe something else if I have something more to go on. But I am not just going to throw everything I believe out the window because one person says so. This is going to be yet another "agree to disagree" situation. Because no one knows. We can sit here and argue here til we are blue in the face but we dont know what is truely going on. And we wont know til the day we die. That is fine with me.
I think that is how its supposed to be honestly. I have my own theories about life and the reasons we are here. And I dont think its what the common idea is. Look at a human being. What makes us so special? What attributes do we bring to this party? Well God gave us free will. He gave us imagination. He gave us reasoning power. He gave us the ability to think outside the box (sorry for the phrase but cant think of another way to put it). Basically he gave us a higher ability to learn and to make decisions. Animals can learn and make decisions but I have yet to see a dog playing Doom on a computer. So what does all this mean? I think it means we are here to learn. Call it a 10 million year long learning program *looks over at the two white mice taking notes* if you want. But we are here ultimately to learn. To make mistakes. And to learn from them. We are meant to fail.
So I think we are meant to discover everything we can. To find the truth of everything around us. Why else would we be given these wonderful gifts? And simple answers wont cut it. Look at the past 300 years. We have advanced more in the past 300 years then in all the time we have been on this planet before. And in the past 20 years? Wow even more. That discovery begins with science. Admonish it all you want but without science we arent learning squat.
I wonder why ppl still debate religion, there is nothing to debate, people only believe what they want, and nobody will change his opinion about religion on a forum....
"you can bring the horse to the river, but you cant force him to drink"
Originally posted by naldric I wonder why ppl still debate religion, there is nothing to debate, people only believe what they want, and nobody will change his opinion about religion on a forum.... "you can bring the horse to the river, but you cant force him to drink"
Its good to debate these things at times, even if noone changes his mind about anything at all. Why? It forces people to think about their position and how to defend it analytically. Knowing the salient points of your beliefs is always better than blindly following them.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Blurr From the wikipedia articles themselves: Zororastrianism: However, many Zoroastrians accept the entire Avesta as their religious guide, including the Vendidad, a collection of 22 Fargards or precepts concerned with religious purity (only very conservative Zoroastrians continue to abide by all of these laws). The Vendidad states: "The man that lies with mankind as man lies with womankind, or as woman lies with mankind, is a man that is a Daeva [demon]; this man is a worshipper of the Daevas, a male paramour of the Daevas" This passage has been interpreted to mean that homosexuality is a form of demon worship and thus sinful. Ancient commentary on this passage suggests that those engaging in sodomy could be killed without permission from the Dastur.
Well, I can prove your article wrong right there. Those folks can believe what they want, but I am not a demon. Nope, no marks of the beast on me or desire to take over the world or someone elses soul. I'm just happy to have a person that I'm capable of actually truly loving and who loves me back.
So, there's your proof they're wrong.
Of course you could say I'm a deceitful demon for saying that trying to trick you, so go ahead. It's been a common practice for people to try to demonize us no matter what we say anyhow. So, it's expected.
Comments
Being a Homosexual is wrong and it is a sin, I dont not agree with the life style, but it does not mean that the people themselves should be treated badly. How many discussion are their in here from what I can see there is one about queers, one about Religion, One about the Bible, and one about the Earth. Bring it on down now.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
And nothing can ever been 100% accurate.
That's like saying "Omg, it failed! So it musn't be true!!" Yea okay Lol.
I bet many people believe the iceage never happened either. And that was over 10,000 years ago.
The present ice age began 40 million years ago with the growth of an ice sheet in Antarctica, but intensified during the Pleistocene (starting around 3 million years ago) with the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000 and 100,000 year time scales. The last glacial period ended about ten thousand years ago.
Keep in mind, man was alive before 10,000 years ago. We walked and hunted the mammoths, etc.
Heh.
Are we talking about Cave men here?? Bring it on down now.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
Actually, I think perhaps you're misrepresenting religions reavo.
Obviously you just took a cursory glance at that article and copied it. Perhaps it would serve you to actually read all the subordinate material.
From the wikipedia articles themselves:
Zororastrianism: However, many Zoroastrians accept the entire Avesta as their religious guide, including the Vendidad, a collection of 22 Fargards or precepts concerned with religious purity (only very conservative Zoroastrians continue to abide by all of these laws). The Vendidad states:
This passage has been interpreted to mean that homosexuality is a form of demon worship and thus sinful. Ancient commentary on this passage suggests that those engaging in sodomy could be killed without permission from the Dastur.
Sikhism:
Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti, the highest temporal Sikh authority, recently condemned homosexuality while reminding visiting Sikh-Canadian Members of Parliament (MPs) of their religious duty to oppose same-sex marriage.[1] In a report published in March 2005, Vedanti said, "The basic duty of Sikh MPs in Canada should be to support laws that stop this kind of practice [homosexuality], because there are thousands of Sikhs living in Canada, to ensure that Sikhs do not fall prey to this practice." Speaking of MPs in favour of such relationships he contained, " The Sikh religion would never accept such MPs. Nobody would support such a person having such dirty thoughts in their mind because it is against the Sikh religion and the Sikh code of conduct and totally against the laws of nature. Sikhs around the world must maintain fidelity to these religious teachings," he argued, "and no politician is exempt".[2]
The supreme Sikh religious body, the Akal Takht, has issued an edict condemning gay marriage and Vedanti's words were echoed by Manjit Singh Kalkatta, another highly respected Sikh preacher who sits on the governing body of the Golden Temple, the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. "The advice given by the highest Sikh temporal authority to every Sikh is saying that it is unnatural and ungodly, and the Sikh religion cannot support it."[2]
Judaism:
The Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible) is the primary classical source for Jewish views on homosexuality. It states that: "[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a to'eva" (Leviticus 18:22).
The term to'eva is usually translated as "abomination" and is used in the Bible to refer to a variety of forbidden acts including incest, idolatry, eating unclean animals, and economic injustice. In the context of sexual prohibitions, the word is also interpreted by the Talmud to be a contraction of the words to'eh ata vah, meaning "You deviate from what is natural." (literally "You are wandering astray with it" since the Hebrew word to'e means "wandering", ata "you", vah "with it")
Buddhism: The third (or sometimes fourth) of the Five Precepts of Buddhism states that one is to refrain from sexual misconduct. This precept has been interpreted variously, sometimes to include any sex that involves the mouth, hands or anus, effectively proscribing most homosexual sex acts and many heterosexual ones too.
Confucianism:
Homosexuality is not mentioned at all in the Confucian scriptures. It is neither listed as a sin nor is it condoned. However, men and women are each expected to abide by traditional gender roles. Men are forbidden from acting too effeminate and woman are forbidden from acting too masculine. Thus, transvestism is strictly forbidden. Some have argued that during anal sex between two men, one must take on the passive role of a woman, defying the man's proscribed gender role. The opposite is true of lesbian couples.
[Note I stated that Confucianism can be argued to be against homosexuality in that it causes one male to take on the role of the female. It helps if you read what I wrote. Same goes with Taoism and some of the others I mentioned]
Taoism:
The Taoist tradition holds that males need the energies of females, and vice versa, in order to bring about balance, completion and transformation. These energies thought to be best obtained through heterosexual relations. Passionate homosexual expression is usually discouraged because it is believed to not lead to human fulfillment.[1] However, homosexuality is not explicitly forbidden by the Taoist Holy Books, the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi.
Taoism stresses the relationship between yin and yang: two opposing forces which maintain harmony through balance. Heterosexuality is seen as the physical and emotional embodiment of the harmonious balance between yin and yang. Homosexuality on the other hand is often seen as the union of two yins or two yangs, and therefore unbalanced. People in same-sex relationships or people who engage in same-sex sexual behaviour are thought to be susceptible to illness.[2]
Asatru (a "Pagan" religion, some say):
In general, Norse writings tend to view homosexuality negatively. The secular laws of Viking Age Iceland do not mention homosexuality. The sagas and laws make a distinction between the active and submissive roles taken by men during anal sex. There was no shame or dishonour attached to the role of the active, or insertive, partner. However, the submissive role was viewed as dishonourable by society (ergi). They were thought of as cowards who had been "conquered" by the active partner.
In the Sturlunga saga, Gu
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
dont take my word for it. Look this stuff up yourself. A ton of info out there. Keep an open mind and read. Start at your library. Then move on. You will find alot of surprises on the way. Heck if you want to know about water pressure taking up diving. That is fun and you find alot out.
Kai
dont take my word for it. Look this stuff up yourself. A ton of info out there. Keep an open mind and read. Start at your library. Then move on. You will find alot of surprises on the way. Heck if you want to know about water pressure taking up diving. That is fun and you find alot out.
Kai
thank you for your info. i have studied up on it, and will continue to do so. when and if, science is able to disprove anything in the Bible using an infallable method, i will accept that. because i am openminded. ive been where you are, can you be where i am.
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dont take my word for it. Look this stuff up yourself. A ton of info out there. Keep an open mind and read. Start at your library. Then move on. You will find alot of surprises on the way. Heck if you want to know about water pressure taking up diving. That is fun and you find alot out.
Kai
thank you for your info. i have studied up on it, and will continue to do so. when and if, science is able to disprove anything in the Bible using an infallable method, i will accept that. because i am openminded. ive been where you are, can you be where i am.
That is the problem. They have disproved several things and people like you then start pulling stuff out of thin air so you dont have to admit it. What is really hilarious is that these same tests and researches done have proven some of the events in the Bible did happen. And these same people are quick to use that to boast how God exists. Basically people like you will be quick to get behind scientists when its convenient but when they find something you dont agree with you automatically start throwing excuses.
I will give you definate proof that the Bible in any form is innacurate. It was written by men. There you go. Men are fallible. And men wrote the Bible. Men editted the Bible. Men translated the Bible. Heck men even decided what books to keep and throw away when it was being put together. Now your next reply will be that the Bible was God's Will. You cant sit there and tell me that out of the thousands involved in writing, editing, translating, and putting the Bible together, that there wasnt one single person that had other ulterior motives. Or that some book or passage that was definately God's Will was not left out. That in and of itself shows that the Bible is inaccurate.
Heck look at the translations part. There is a huge problem just in that. The whole concept of the Bible can be changed because someone got one word mistranslated. Taking judging for example. In the newest versions it says judging is wrong. But in the original translations it says its right to do so just do it with an open mind. Common sense even tells us we have to judge. If we dont judge then we cant even try to find out what is right and wrong. What is good and evil. We would sin even more if we didnt judge then if we did and it was a sin to judge. But that is just one example. There are several others.
Kai
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
I am not talking about dating rocks. Carbon Dating is actually a very limited use procedure to find a date. The item being dated must be organic and found in an inclosed space. I had to learn about all dating techniques in my work. Plano wants me to believe that carbon dating and all dating techniques are completely wrong.
Kai
dont take my word for it. Look this stuff up yourself. A ton of info out there. Keep an open mind and read. Start at your library. Then move on. You will find alot of surprises on the way. Heck if you want to know about water pressure taking up diving. That is fun and you find alot out.
Kai
thank you for your info. i have studied up on it, and will continue to do so. when and if, science is able to disprove anything in the Bible using an infallable method, i will accept that. because i am openminded. ive been where you are, can you be where i am.
That is the problem. They have disproved several things and people like you then start pulling stuff out of thin air so you dont have to admit it. What is really hilarious is that these same tests and researches done have proven some of the events in the Bible did happen. And these same people are quick to use that to boast how God exists. itnt that exactly what youre doing here, saying that this is true in the Bible and this isnt?Basically people like you will be quick to get behind scientists when its convenient but when they find something you dont agree with you automatically start throwing excuses. ive yet to throw any accuses, lol. talk about grasping at straws.
I will give you definate proof that the Bible in any form is innacurate. It was written by men. this is true, but so is your precious science text books. its a known fact that science not 100% accurate. your own scientist will admit that when a theory is disproven, they throw it out, or change it to fit a new updated model. yeah, thats what we should trust in. There you go. Men are fallible. And men wrote the Bible. Men editted the Bible. Men translated the Bible. Heck men even decided what books to keep and throw away when it was being put together. Now your next reply will be that the Bible was God's Will. actually this wasnt even close to what me next reply was going to be, lol. im rather enjoying this.....whatever you wanna call it. as long as you dont get all mad at me and start calling me names, i could do this all night. You cant sit there and tell me that out of the thousands involved in writing, editing, translating, and putting the Bible together, that there wasnt one single person that had other ulterior motives. Or that some book or passage that was definately God's Will was not left out. That in and of itself shows that the Bible is inaccurate. yeppers, and scientists never have ulterior motives, eh? lol. and some "churches and organizations" never have ulterior motives when referancing the Bible, eh?
Heck look at the translations part. There is a huge problem just in that. The whole concept of the Bible can be changed because someone got one word mistranslated. Taking judging for example. In the newest versions it says judging is wrong. But in the original translations it says its right to do so just do it with an open mind. Common sense even tells us we have to judge. If we dont judge then we cant even try to find out what is right and wrong. What is good and evil. We would sin even more if we didnt judge then if we did and it was a sin to judge. But that is just one example. There are several others.
again, taking this out of context. two different meanings for the word judgement that youre using there. anyone that has actually read all of the Bible knows that.
Kai
like i already said, youre not going to convince me of anything, and im not going to convince you of anything. so we have two choices here, either we can agree to disagree (cause i already said that i dont care if you believe me), or we can continue this discussion, throwing back and forth our best examples and proofs to try to presuade the other. now im all for the second one to be honest, because im not so naive to believe that im all knowing. but if the best that you can come up with is, "i know more than you, and thats proof." then we might as well end it here. your choice, friend.
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You havent given me anything to go on here. You sit here and say I am closed minded but your not helping me here one bit. All your doing is saying hearsay and stuff you read on the back of a wheaties box and coming off like your freaking Horner himself.
First the whole thing about showing you a boat 3,000 years old. Well when I was in Kuwait, after the first time the military went there to play with our toys in the sand, i went to a museum. And in that museum was...can you guess? Yep a boat from 3,000 years ago. Enclosed in a case. they built the museum on top of it. But its there. Anymore straws you want to grasp at there?
You dont seem to get it one bit. I have been to labs where dating is done. I have watched them. I have talked to these guys. I know how its done. Did you know that all items dated have what is called a confidence rating? Bet you didnt know that. A lab will do several tests. Not just one. Several different types too. Each item then gets a confidence rating. No lab, no scholar, no archeologist will accept a date that is less then 95%. If it comes up lower they do it again. And again. Until they get an accurate date that is at least 95% accurate. And if it is inaccurate its not by much.
Now most items get a 99% rating. So meeting you half way that means there is a 3% margin for error. But your saying that is perfect evidence that 100% of all results are completely and totally wrong. See what I am getting at? Your looking at a glass with only a drop of water in it and saying its completely full or looking at a glass with a sip of water gone and saying its completely empty. Then your actually trying to sit there and tell me I am the one without an open mind..... Your basically saying that because there is a incredibly slim chance that a date might be wrong that means they are all completely wrong and your justified in keeping your mind closed.
Oh and I never said the Bible was completely wrong. As I said there is definate hard evidence of alot of the events in the Bible happening. But some didnt happen.
And your not pointing out a single fact. Alot of this your just pulling out of thin air. You say "I am stating facts" but your that one that said C-14 dating can be wrong by up to a million years and that is completely and totally wrong. C-14 has a very limited use to begin with as I said a bit ago. But you are just generalizing that all dating methods are 100% wrong. And sadly they wont ever be proven 100% correct to you unless its to back up something you believe.
Do you think I enjoyed finding out alot of what I had grown to believe was false? No I didnt. I hated it. I was right there where you are once. And I tried just like you to stick my fingers in my ears, close my eyes, and shout "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU! LALALALA". But guess what happened. I opened my mind. I started reading and researching both sides of the fence. And I came to a realization. Not that God is false. But that God does exist. He would have to to keep something like this complex world going. It made my faith in a supreme being even stronger. Because I accepted that not everything is what I believe.
I have kept my mind open but you have given me absolutely nothing to work with here. So please stop saying I have a closed mind when your the one that cant accept anything.
Kai
And nothing can ever been 100% accurate.
That's like saying "Omg, it failed! So it musn't be true!!" Yea okay Lol.
I bet many people believe the iceage never happened either. And that was over 10,000 years ago.
The present ice age began 40 million years ago with the growth of an ice sheet in Antarctica, but intensified during the Pleistocene (starting around 3 million years ago) with the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000 and 100,000 year time scales. The last glacial period ended about ten thousand years ago.
Keep in mind, man was alive before 10,000 years ago. We walked and hunted the mammoths, etc.
Heh.
Are we talking about Cave men here?? Bring it on down now.
Um no. And if you did your research, you would of known that.
Independant, Shinto, Lesbian, and Proud!
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Independant, Shinto, Lesbian, and Proud!
I want it to go away.
lol, some people just have to prove everyone else wrong, they just cant accept that they might be wrong. and they cant accept that they cant convince someone of their viewpoint. and they have to have the last word. just watch how this happens, ill stop posting and hell have to post one more time just to one up me. lol. its so funny. hes getting so mad over this, lol. get this through your openminded head, i dont care if you believe me. im not trying to convince you of crap. youre trying to convince me. and all that youve given me is, "i know what im talking about, ive seen the labs, ive been there when it was done, so everything i say is fact and youre just stupid if you dont take what i say as fact." the same crap that people just like you have done for hundreds of years. bottomline, if you wanna continue an adult conversation, im all for it. but if you have to be told that youre right and im wrong, well, fine. Youre right and im wrong.....lol, does that make you feel more superior? even if i dont mean it. lol, sorry, but your sense of proof is just so funny to me. "thats the way it is and if you dont accept it then youre just closedminded." lol, w/e.
science conducted by men. men are fallable. science=fallable? its the same sorry equation you gave me about the Bible, remember. Oo and i never said that i completely disagree with all science. just certain assumptions made by scientists.
btw, ive yet to insult you or your inteligence, yet you have done so with every post that you have made. if you cant present evidence without insulting someone, how can you expect us to believe that you can actually reason well enough to know the difference between truth and heresay.
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Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Me mad? Heck no. I am seriously enjoying this. You say you dont care if I believe you. Then why do you keep going? Why do you keep replying? Say what you think and move on. But no you dont. You keep on and on. Its quite enjoyable to read your very predictable replies. If it wasnt for you replying my day wouldnt have been so fun. So please keep going.
Now lets talk about something else you said before we continue. You said the thing about plate tectonics. About how they could have done all that movement in just a few days. So now not only are you saying dating methods are completely wrong your now saying that physics is crap too. The plates move between 2 and 10cm per year. Remember the tsunami that hit india? How about the earthquake in Mexico City? Wanna know why that happened? The plates build up too much pressure and snap. They do that alot. There is over a million earthquakes per year. So your saying that it all happened in just a few days. Imagine all those earthquakes from all that movement crammed down into just a few days or even weeks. Want proof of what would happen?
This is nice experiment you can do in your own kitchen. I did this one in school. Go and boil several eggs. When they are done and cooled take one and crack it. Dont peel it but make sure you got something that looks like plates. (That is why I said cook a few.) Now put that egg under warm water and try to move the "plates" as fast as you can with your fingers. Dont push in. Push side to side. And remember be fast because you said this all happened in a few days or weeks. So what happened? Thats right! The egg was torn apart. The laws of physics and motion tell us this.
Of course you will reply again with something about how God protected the earth or some such thing. Darn convenient for you I must say. I wish I could do that. I wish I could just say "God" and use him as a cop out everytime something came close to dashing my beliefs but sadly I cant. See I was given this great ability by God. Its called reasoning. And its a curse. I cant just put up the "God" excuse to save my beliefs. I have to actually study something and reason it out. Because that is what God wants me to do. To figure things out. Your lucky. He must want you to just deny all sense of reason and never actually try to figure anything out.
Anyway back to the discussion. I am going to say this one last time for the cheap seats. You have yet to give me anything to work with. You just throw up "God" everytime and decry everything I put up without any consideration. I am sitting here, Bible near me and other books trying to find even onething that backs up what your saying. So far I have found nothing. So come on man. If your going to keep discussing this at least give me a bone here. Give me something tangible I can at least read. Oh wait thats right. You cant PROVE any of this. You just know its true. And I have to accept that. On what? What have you given me to at least semi prove anything you say besides your word? Thats right nothing. I have at least thrown you things to go look up on your own. you want book titles? Papers written? I can list those as well. Up to you.
Anyway have fun. Cant wait to read your next reply.
Kai
Not to be a big fat Buttinskii...but Kai, weren't you the one debating me about Catholicism in another thread? Weren't you the one who was talking about knowing more about the Bible than I do? Weren't you the one who is Catholic, and follows the "Catholic Bible" ?
Correct me if I'm wrong...or show me where I'm mistaken...but as the devout Catholic that you seem to be, how is it that you justify a belief that Genesis is a lie? I don't believe that your Catholic Bible teaches that the Earth was created over billions of years, and that Humans somehow evolved from other animals. According to you, the Catholic Bible was the origional one...and since you seem to claim to know so much about it, you will also know that the Hebrew used in Genesis is used to denote literal translation, not metaphor. So what I am getting from you is this: You are a devout Catholic, who is willing to defend his Catholic beliefs regarding various Catholic sacraments, but you believe that the book of Genesis is a lie.
Knowing what I just told you about the Hebrew in Genesis, that is all that there is left to believe...knowing that the Bible means 6 days when it says 6 days...it renders the whole "God is on a different time scale" theory useless doesn't it? So where does that leave your faith? So you believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that he died on a cross so that your sins may be forgiven, but you believe that Genesis is just a bunch of hooey? Explain how you justify your vast knowledge of the Bible, coupled with your disbelief of Genesis itself, also coupled with your belief in Jesus Christ?
Tell me where I'm going wrong here, or are you not even a Catholic and has this all been for nothing?
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
lmao, hows the weather there in your little world, Kai. sorry, i couldnt resist. everything that ive said, youve applied your "thats not true because science tells us" logic to it. so whats the point in continuing this, really. i am truly glad that its been as enjoyable for you as it has been for me. i really do enjoy discussing things like this with someone that actually can reason and discuss without the need to get upset. im done posting, but if you wanna continue this, you can send me a pm. im going to bed now, so i wont be replying anymore. Oo and ive already said this, but i keep replying because im actually enjoying this. not because i actually expect you to take me words seriously. in fact, you pretty much followed the exact mold that evolutionists and such usually follow. except you havent gotten mad. thats kinda new for the evolutionists side. usually when i have a detailed convo with an evolutionist, they usually end it with, "youre so stupid if you dont believe in evolution, cause, cause,....its just fact, and thats it. so, ha." lol. so for real, its been a pleasure. im going to bed now, if you wanna keep this going, pm me. i think everyone else has had enough of us, lol.
as a side note though, if me replies were so predictable, how come every attempt at predicting them as failed. ive yet to use God as a "cop out" or say that its true just because i believe it. thats what you have been doing, ironic that you accuse me of what youre doing. of course, you dont believe that thats what you were doing.
watch this: Darn convenient for you I must say. I wish I could do that. I wish I could just say "Science" and use it as a cop out everytime something came close to dashing my beliefs but sadly I cant. see, its works the other way too, lol.
in any case, since you keep saying you want something to study up on, www.answersingenesis.org. im too lazy and dont really care too much to find and give you anymore to "study", than that. enjoy.
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Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
But I think I found something. This might be more to your level. Reading through some of my old papers from grade school. Science has never been able to completely prove anything. That is a fact. Scientist have to approach their theories with alot of skepticism. They have to try to disprove every theory. They have to take a theory then do everything possible to make it untrue. With me so far? Well basically what we have is the theory of evolution and the theory of a billion year old earth. Ready for a shock? No one has been able to disprove either. Plain and simple and to the point.
Now lets take the same approach with the Bible and some of the things in it. Science has given credability to some events. But has disproven others. And that is how it works. You take something then try hard as you can to disprove it. Take th Noah story. Its been disproven. Its done. Its a nice story and it does what it is supposed to do but its a story nothing more. Even Hebrew scholars are coming out of the woodwork and admitting its just a story meant to scare people to make them straighten up and fly right.
You say I am like every other evolutionist you have met except I dont get mad. Too bad. I am not an evolutionist. I am a realist. But I have met several people just like you. Creationists are more then willing to accept a science that backs up their claims and even more willing to denounce any science that doesnt. I have met more then a few followers of creationism and they are just like that. I even got one of them to throw a punch at me before because I caught him with his own words.
Sadly we can continue this discussion but it wont go anywhere. I am more then willing to believe something else if I have something more to go on. But I am not just going to throw everything I believe out the window because one person says so. This is going to be yet another "agree to disagree" situation. Because no one knows. We can sit here and argue here til we are blue in the face but we dont know what is truely going on. And we wont know til the day we die. That is fine with me.
I think that is how its supposed to be honestly. I have my own theories about life and the reasons we are here. And I dont think its what the common idea is. Look at a human being. What makes us so special? What attributes do we bring to this party? Well God gave us free will. He gave us imagination. He gave us reasoning power. He gave us the ability to think outside the box (sorry for the phrase but cant think of another way to put it). Basically he gave us a higher ability to learn and to make decisions. Animals can learn and make decisions but I have yet to see a dog playing Doom on a computer. So what does all this mean? I think it means we are here to learn. Call it a 10 million year long learning program *looks over at the two white mice taking notes* if you want. But we are here ultimately to learn. To make mistakes. And to learn from them. We are meant to fail.
So I think we are meant to discover everything we can. To find the truth of everything around us. Why else would we be given these wonderful gifts? And simple answers wont cut it. Look at the past 300 years. We have advanced more in the past 300 years then in all the time we have been on this planet before. And in the past 20 years? Wow even more. That discovery begins with science. Admonish it all you want but without science we arent learning squat.
Kai
I wonder why ppl still debate religion, there is nothing to debate, people only believe what they want, and nobody will change his opinion about religion on a forum....
"you can bring the horse to the river, but you cant force him to drink"
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
So, there's your proof they're wrong.
Of course you could say I'm a deceitful demon for saying that trying to trick you, so go ahead. It's been a common practice for people to try to demonize us no matter what we say anyhow. So, it's expected.
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