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What ever happened to rational discussion?
grenades69
Member Posts: 88
Every time I visit these forums I always see endless threads and posts which are written out of hate and anger. And the only reason behind it is based upon which games people play. There's always people who love the game they play showing endless anger and hate towards those who don't, and the other way around too. This inevitably leads to flame wars and trolling with little discussion about the actual game and just the communities that inhabit them and the businesses that run and develop the games.
I thought the whole point of the MMORPG forums was to discuss MMORPG's and either discuss factors within the games, discuss reasons the game is unique and why it's good or to produce constructive criticism about the games. But it seems that all those discussions are either non existent or they eventually get swarmed with "fanbois" and "fanboi haters" and becomes another pool of ridiculous arguments brought upon by nothing but anger. I honestly don't understand why it is that MMORPG players in particular feel so bound to an online game that when ever they see their game being criticised they feel its also an insult to them.
I think a good example of this kind of forum behaviour exists in the runescape section, almost every single thread on that forum is either a personal attack on everyone who plays runescape, or a personal attack on everyone who dislikes runescape, there's almost no discussion what so ever about the game and why it is good/bad, it's all just flames and trolls written out by angry and irrational players of MMORPGs. And this happens in pretty much every MMORPG forum I've visited.
I'm obviously not trying to stop this behaviour, because that would be naive, instead what I'd like to discuss is what actually encourages or starts off the "Fanboi" behaviour that exists to such an extent on these forums. Post away, also I'd like to keep the mentioning of MMORPG titles to a minimum, for obvious reasons, regardless of my mention of runescape (it was just an example).
I thought the whole point of the MMORPG forums was to discuss MMORPG's and either discuss factors within the games, discuss reasons the game is unique and why it's good or to produce constructive criticism about the games. But it seems that all those discussions are either non existent or they eventually get swarmed with "fanbois" and "fanboi haters" and becomes another pool of ridiculous arguments brought upon by nothing but anger. I honestly don't understand why it is that MMORPG players in particular feel so bound to an online game that when ever they see their game being criticised they feel its also an insult to them.
I think a good example of this kind of forum behaviour exists in the runescape section, almost every single thread on that forum is either a personal attack on everyone who plays runescape, or a personal attack on everyone who dislikes runescape, there's almost no discussion what so ever about the game and why it is good/bad, it's all just flames and trolls written out by angry and irrational players of MMORPGs. And this happens in pretty much every MMORPG forum I've visited.
I'm obviously not trying to stop this behaviour, because that would be naive, instead what I'd like to discuss is what actually encourages or starts off the "Fanboi" behaviour that exists to such an extent on these forums. Post away, also I'd like to keep the mentioning of MMORPG titles to a minimum, for obvious reasons, regardless of my mention of runescape (it was just an example).
Comments
I sympathise with you i do often i see an interesting discussion on various topics on these forums which while usually interesting to begine with soon devolve into a flame war.
This is especially true if the topic drifts close to religion then one of the religious trolls apear to hijack the topic soon followed by others to continue a chat from another day
In reallity the forum mods are not really doing there jobs.
Rational discussion happens a LOT, you just have to pinpoint them.
Also, the fact that you can't convince someone doesn't mean you aren't having a rational discussion. Someone can have a rational discussion with me about raiding, but convincing me will not happen, no matter what is been said. My opinion is definitive and may only worsen about raiding-enforcement as shown in a game like EQ or WoW.
That doesn't mean we can't talk about the semantics of it. Some peoples react very angrily when they can't convince someone, which is rather funny. Not everyone can be convince on any topic. If we would talk about Bush, you can convince me that he is a good president even if I lean toward thinking otherwise, the guy, despite all it flaws did some stuff and understand some aspects that we can't usually say openly. For example, America need a driving goal, a greater purpose, otherwise everything go down the road. America doesn't need a war, a fight or something like that, but it need a "greater purpose", otherwise peoples focus on the sins and this decrease the quality of life of everyone. This is 1 of the reason why I am an adamant defender of the NASA and would always support them, no matter what, no matter how hard is it to support them. Because the NASA could bring such a driving goal and higher purpose, that we definitely need, even here in Canada.
It seems you are more unhappy with the fact that you can't convince some peoples, than about the rational debate itself. Both are different. Usually younger folks are more open minded and easier to convince, which doesn't mean it is easier or harder to have a rational debate. Older folks, we stick to our beliefs. I could walk the walk of shame and be surrounded by AL, FoH and devs elite about raiding, they could destroy my arguments and overkill me, I would still be an adamant anti-raid enforcement defender, and I would still debate and try to bring rational explanation as to why it shouldn't be that way in any new MMO.
Convincing peoples is hard, very hard. See, if a raider is raiding for the "wrong reasons", he would have to admit it first, then that some peoples want a happy gamer where non-raiders are happy and so on. If someone is raiding for the "good reasons", they are usually easier to convince but it may eventually aggravated them if they see a debate between me and a "wrong reasons raiders", since they, personnally, love raiding for good reasons...and I would make shortcuts when debating with the wrong guy, which may eventually aggravated them.
In doubt remember this gold motto: Ano's is always right!
Because when I ain't right, I put "maybe", "dunno", "possibly" and so on; which make me right again to put it. 
Haha, but enjoy your stay, you will find a lot of rational and irrational folks around, here however, the rational debates are encouraged...these mods are great! 
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I dunno, peoples talk about what they care.
Maybe the OP could have a tool to underline which topics are on tracks or not, but that would be abused as well, as peoples thinking differently would often find themselves "off tracks".
Peoples can only offer what they have, you can't ask them to offer what they don't. Me, if a remote mention to raiding is made, I will derail on it, it is not a maybe, it is a certainty. You can't ask peoples to stop loving/hating in order to remain on track, doing so would stop been a hobby and be work, and you will soon find all "interesting peoples" losing interest and you would only have the good technician who are rather creative-less for the main topic.
Creativity has a price, and the price is that it often open side-tracks on a topic. That's been said, I personnally try to remain on topic...except when I am emotionally involve, which could be translate as: except when raiding is been discussed. Raiding deserve nothing less, for the better, and for the worst.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I dunno, peoples talk about what they care.
Maybe the OP could have a tool to underline which topics are on tracks or not, but that would be abused as well, as peoples thinking differently would often find themselves "off tracks".
Peoples can only offer what they have, you can't ask them to offer what they don't. Me, if a remote mention to raiding is made, I will derail on it, it is not a maybe, it is a certainty. You can't ask peoples to stop loving/hating in order to remain on track, doing so would stop been a hobby and be work, and you will soon find all "interesting peoples" losing interest and you would only have the good technician who are rather creative-less for the main topic.
Creativity has a price, and the price is that it often open side-tracks on a topic. That's been said, I personnally try to remain on topic...except when I am emotionally involve, which could be translate as: except when raiding is been discussed. Raiding deserve nothing less, for the better, and for the worst.
Sighs - i guess you are right.
part of the problem with forums about mmorpg's are the games themselves in my opinion. We have seen on average a lack of progression in the MMO's that are being released- the problems and general points of contention have not changed, so there's not much to discuss that hasn't been said a thousand times before... eventually even the people that want to have rational discussions have nothing left constructive to say, so they either stop posting or just flame.
And even if the MMO designers where continually coming out with great new ideas, these games take a long time to develop and have long lifespans. Everything that can be said, will be said... a million times over. This leaves a lot of time for forum junkies with no real new input to simply spout nonsense and hate at each other if they aren't careful.
generations, I place most of the blame on television. Honestly,
television has caused society to become bored with rational discussion.
It may be a chicken and the egg issue but we seemed
to have had a longer attention span before the idiot box. You
write a post of more than 100 words today and folks will be ripping on
you for being long winded. I personally think they are just too
stupid to follow along for more than a paragraph.
There was a time in the United States when folks would go see Lincoln
and Douglas debate for four hours and then break for dinner and come
back to watch them go at it for another three hours. And we are
not talking just a few interested members of the community but almost
every man, woman and child. Folks used to have the facility to
follow both sides of a complex argument and make informed judgements
and many of these people were actually illiterate. Now college
grads can't sit still to watch an hour long debate. No wonder
many disscussions turn into a "you suck" fest.
There is also
a simplified view of debate which looks more like a sports event than a
method of getting to the truth. "Either you win or you lose" is
not a healthy way for society to look at issues. People have such
a fragile self image that anything that they see as defining them like
a sports team, an online game, a brand of car or more understandablly a
political party will be defended with blind fanaticism.
Hehe. Good point.
NGE Refugee.
Actually I see some very well thought out arguments posted at mmorpg, usually more thought out and intelligent than many game forums that I've been in. The problem is you probably look for just about every discussion to be intelligent while believing that the world is full of idiots (I know I do), you can't have it both ways.
If a game isn't to my liking I rarely post my feelings about it in that games forums. I've seen far too many "doom & gloomers" in game forums going on and on about how a game is going to fail to become one myself. If I do have reservations I may post once with specific details and then move on, I do not expect a following of converts to follow me lemming-like to another game. Usually if I don't like a game it has more to do with the community (and usually hack abuse) than the game itself, so I really don't want the idiots following me to muck up another game.
As far as blaming the boob tube for how people behave I think people give far to much credit to the television and far too little blame to the parents. The idiot box isn't the one that's suppose to teach manners to children (or adults) nor is it designed to be a substitute babysitter.
You can, however, blame the government and courts for some of our social problems, due to over crowded jails criminals get released into the streets showing children that there is no great consequence for their actions up to and including murder. We also have new laws against disciplining children, again removing the stigma of consequence. People need to know that if they misbehave someone can and will take action against them. Without fear people will simply act like fools.
µV
nice thread
my 2 cents , i think that also becose mmorpgs have reached the main stream market , not just wow or gw , all the game insdustry is growing wild fast , people start to look for online games and they find mmos.
the good old days of swg are over. when it was new , it was sci fi , it was awsome.
now its old , full of idiots. im a true fan boy of guildwars , its the only mmo i play and its the only mmo i want to play , why you may ask , most of you dont agree , but i know this game requires a lot of knolage and teamwork , at a level i have not seen in any other pc game before.
im bringing gw to the post becose i have flamed a lot of people that try to tell others guildwars this or that.
now i have reached a point , i gave up trying to explain , its really impossible.
i cant explain with words how the game is/was for me. and i think this is also a reason why people end up in flame wars most of the time , words dont work , we cant cast a skill sequence here to show how good it is , so we cast ridiculus words sequences and expect to get experience from it.
admins and mods need the forum to be active , need the forum to be popular , lots of members and posts per day , so that the game devs use it for advertisement. and i think that is the only thing that matters.
Guild - http://lightness.goodforum.net/
Blog - http://www.pierrecarlier.com/
Glad to hear I am not the only one frustrated with the hate and malice here. I dont really know what causes it.
But if you mention EVE in a positive light you are pounced on like a you have just asked them to let you have their virgin daughter for the night. If you say anything bad about PVP, or raiding you are called a wimp or lazy.
Just yesterday I posted a topic on this very thing. I really dont understand all the flames and hate spewed out here.
One thing that aids this I think is the fact that if one one you saw me on the street or was my neighbor you have no idea that I was Leasa. So there is no consequence to calling someone a fool, troll, idiot, or nazi here. I dont think if I was tlking face to face and having the same discussion that it would get so bitter. (At least I hope not)
BUt that still does not explain why some people here act the way they do. Warning stabdard older person statement follows...
When I was growing up I had to call anyone older than me sir or mam. If I did not or showed disrespect to anyone, teachers, parents of my friends, and so on I would have been whipped soundly with a switch from my mother and when my father got home he would have used his belt on me. Today a parent can be accused of child abuse if they would administer the same punishment today.
I sometimes think if our society would let it be know if you were hateful or mean to another person you would be punished a lot of this would crap would stop. But we are living in the days of Political Correctness which I really think causes more problems than it cures.
Support Bacteria, its the only culture some people have.