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This game is not for us. (hear me out)
z80paranoia
Member Posts: 410
Some of us have expressed interest in a non-raiding server. I was one of those people. I would love to see one in Vanguard. But honestly, it's far better to actually support a game that is being made from the ground up to support our playstyle. Why? Because then there will be no need for alternative rule servers and we will have more like-minded people to play the game with. Why? Because the main, and therefore, most populated servers will support our playstyle by default.
If you really want to show Vanguard how popular a game that was similar but didn't force raiding would be then start supporting a game that does just that. Support an mmo that does not deny one the ability to progress in small groups or solo. Support a game that doesn't implicitly regard groupers as second-class citizens. That game is The Lord Of The Rings Online. This game is for us. Sure, their classes are few and the armor looks kind of boring (compared to the flamboyant WoW and Guildwars armors) but other than that, it's right up our alley.
When people read about how we want to be as decked out as a soloer or grouper as a raider, the typical reply is "If you want to have group and solo epics, Vanguard is not for you". Those people are absolutely correct. Don't even bother trying to argue it. They are wrong sometimes when they sometimes say that soloers and groupers want "free epics". Something you worked hard for whether solo or in a group is not "free". Such statements presuppose that dezens if not hundreds of hours of raiding a single dungeon is the only possible valid form of "currency" for epic gear. That also presupposes that the work of a single individual or party is inherently inferior. That's all elitist garbage. Nevertheless, if the devs back them by supporting their playstyle the most, then that game is just not for us.
This post was not made to bash Vanguard. It will be a good game for those who agree with that style of advancement. I'm only saying that instead of complaining or petitioning and polling for changes that go against the developers intentions, support a different game. Other people have said this but I decided to dedicate an entire topic to it in my own words. Please try to understand it before flaming. This post was made to give those of us who hate raiding something to consider.
UPDATE EDIT:
Thanks to the informative posts of MX13, I no longer hold the belief that Vanguard will not offer top gear upgrades for hard working/playing non-raiders. In short he proved that Vanguard is for us.
How do I know LoTRO won't force raiding? Because LoTRO Content Designer Jared Hall-Dugas said "we are not forcing casual players to participate in raids", It doesn't get much plainer, simpler or obvious that that. It's all here at these sites link link link in case anyone else has any doubts...He also explains that non-raiders will be able to get statistically comparable gear that is on par with raid gear in the same article. All of that is irrefutably congruent with and backs by way of official statement, my claim that LoTRO "doesn't implicitly regard groupers (or non-raiders in general) as second-class citizens." I didn't make the claims up,Turbine said those things themselves and I'm just relaying their message.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Comments
1) 90% of this HUGE game is designed for small groups or Solo play.
2) There is PLENTY of soloing. This has been discussed in several Beta Reviews.
3) It's a MULTIPLAYER game... it amazes me that some people want to play a MMO alone... It SHOULD be designed for groups of 2-4, that's the average size group I've played with in MMO's...
4) It's a complete waste of resources to redesign Hundreds of things to make a non-raid server, when a VAST majority of content is non-raid.
5) VANGUAD IS NOT A RAID GAME. Raiding is one of only a few things you can do in Vanguard, and you can get equally good items without raiding.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
How about "NO" to non raiding servers. Ive already explained that brad's vision is to cater to "Core Gamers" and does not follow your philosophy. Like i said in previous post, if you dont like it, there are other alternatives around.
There will be only 20% raiding and 80% solo and group content, Brad's generous enough as it is.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Wow no offense to the guy that typed in green, but wow....your a dumb dude. Theres many ways to participate solo. You just have to research it more. Such as, you could be an independent crafter. Many job oppurtunities there.
As for combating solo goes, if you want to go solo, play a console game. Cause thats the best its gonna be for you.
oh well my bad, i was scanning through words too fast. I must have skipped couple sentences alone.
Wow no offense to the guy that typed in green, but wow....your a dumb dude. Theres many ways to participate solo. You just have to research it more. Such as, you could be an independent crafter. Many job oppurtunities there.
Personal attacks (calling peoople names like "dumb" for example) are typical of those who cannot (or are too lazy to) formulate a convincing rebuttal argument. Name one line where I said soloers cannot participate or craft? In fact I didn't even bring up crafting because I wasn't talking about crafting. In fact you had to go off topic just to find anything to say at all. Reading comprehension FTW!As for combating solo goes, if you want to go solo, play a console game. Cause thats the best its gonna be for you.
You do realize that I acknowledge Vanguard as having solo play? No one is denying that so that's a garbage comment. It's been established that there will be solo play and we all agree, so thats besides the point. In other words if I want solo play I can in fact play it in Vanguard and therefore wouldnt need to play a console game as my "best" option. Again, reading comprehension FTW!
Reading comprehension FTW!
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Wow no offense to the guy that typed in green, but wow....your a dumb dude. Theres many ways to participate solo. You just have to research it more. Such as, you could be an independent crafter. Many job oppurtunities there.
As for combating solo goes, if you want to go solo, play a console game. Cause thats the best its gonna be for you.
Please, leave the insults out of it. There is just no reason for it; it polarizes people.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
There will be only 20% raiding and 80% solo and group content, Brad's generous enough as it is.
The last I read the actual numbers presented by Brad was 60% "core gamers" 20% small group and 20% raid.
I am not saying this is fact but I am pretty sure those were the actual numbers given.
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there,
80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters.
Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior,
and he will bring the others home.
-Heraclitus 500BC
And then?
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Wow no offense to the guy that typed in green, but wow....your a dumb dude. Theres many ways to participate solo. You just have to research it more. Such as, you could be an independent crafter. Many job oppurtunities there.
As for combating solo goes, if you want to go solo, play a console game. Cause thats the best its gonna be for you.
Please, leave the insults out of it. There is just no reason for it; it polarizes people.
Sorry....didn't mean to insult.....was suppose to be a harmless poking at fun thing lol
And then?
More good rebuttals MX13 . I have no reason to believe what you say isn't true. And if it is true I stand corrected and perhaps I misjudged the game. Of course only time in the game will tell. My main point still stands. People should accept the game for what it is and decide if the game is right for them rather than try to change it because there are alternative games in developement. That is something I began to accept and felt like saying.
I accept the game as it is and will seek a game that fits my tastes from the ground up rather than complain and was advising others to do the same. It's better to support a game that suits you than to try to change a game that you feel does not suit you. Still, you put up a solid argument and I appreciate that.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
But still, it should be there.
On the other hand. If youre a master craftsman and you go to all corners of the world to get materials and hunt for rare components drops etc to finaly make a masterpiece from 32 different components. Thouse items should be as good as the high end raiding once.
But insted you might have to hunt for weaks or months before you can make it. Insted of one hardcore night raiding and get lucky with rolls or whatever.
Wow no offense to the guy that typed in green, but wow....your a dumb dude. Theres many ways to participate solo. You just have to research it more. Such as, you could be an independent crafter. Many job oppurtunities there.
As for combating solo goes, if you want to go solo, play a console game. Cause thats the best its gonna be for you.
Please, leave the insults out of it. There is just no reason for it; it polarizes people.
Sorry....didn't mean to insult.....was suppose to be a harmless poking at fun thing lol
We all have our moments. Thanks for clearing it up.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
The only thing I'll add is that it's absolutly clear a well balanced group can be up to 3x as effective as a non-balanced group. This WILL absolutly effect play, IMO, as it should.
However it should be noted that balancing a group has MORE impact on play then the size of a group. A balanced group of 4 is more likely to suceed then an unbalanced group of 8. This does have a LARGE impact on a group of friends selections when creating characters, but IMO this is expected in any game that is well balanced. Sure, some Professions are better at soloing, but group build is more important in the greater scheme of things.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Paranoia, I would agree with you 100% except for one little problem....LotRO has raiding too.
Point me to a well funded fantasy game coming out in the near future that DOESN'T have raiding and I'll be all over it.
Great post really z80, I knew you had real discussion in you.
I will not, I repeat not ever raid in Vangaurd and I know for a fact that I will have tons of fun and be decked out in very kewl gear. Vanguard will have tons to do for soloers and small groups so you needn't fear. If you absolutely must have the best sword in the game, it is not truly known yes whether you will only be able to get it from raiding. I would assume yes, but no one really knows. I do know that you will be able to get great gear from soloing from random drops and from named drops alike.
The game is going to be very solo and small group friendly, and from what I hear from beta testers, the game is looking much more solid than even the mighty WoW was at this stage in beta 3. Take that with a grain of salt of course, but Vanguard is not going to be the 1337 gamers only game that some would make it out to be. Remember I said this, for when it releases, I will be proved correct.
Oh, and...
I encourage ALL to read this section if you are concerned about raiding, but for those who what summary answers, here are a few points this FAQ section makes. There is a LOT more information in the actual FAQ section.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
here's a quote from a LoTRO dev...
"Unique refers to the only place you can get said sword, armor, etc. We use comparable to say that while you may not be able to get the exact +400 uber sword of death that you can get in a Raid, you might get a +410 uber sword of smiting. And yes, crafters should be able to make some darn cool stuff..."
So yes, it will have raiding but you are not forced to raid to have a character just as powerful as a raider. Non-raiders won't be second class citizens.
Here's a quote from the silky venom Vanguard FAQ:
"I owe you a better explanation, and the reason I hesitate is a lot of this is in flux and testing. The general idea though is if you were a dedicated casual gamer who never got any group loot and suddenly decided to loot you would indeed be at a disadvantage. But you certainly could befriend a solid group and they could escort you in and keep you alive and eventually get you some new lewtz. You are not a total sitting duck, but relatively ineffectual.
I realize some may panic at that, but, really, if you have a change of heart like that, which is great, I trust you will find some people who will take you in.
Going from casual to raid? I'm thinking no. Baby steps. - 27 October 2005
From the above quote one could accurately infer that a non-raider will be much weaker than a raider. Again, not a complaint just an acceptance of the facts. I am certainly not bashing Brad. I think he's a great guy and I actually wish I could be him for an hour. So comparing the two quotes one can see why I say what I say and why I recommend LoTRO instead.
edit: I must add however that the public raids of Vanguard sound like they will offer less boredom than the instanced raids of WoW. And I must also add that I am not at all a casual gamer. I'm a hardcore gamer that thinks raiding is painfully boring.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
One of the things that Sigil has said about Vanguard is that you will want (and maybe need) multiple sets of armor.
Another thing they have said is that rewards should be proportionate to "risk" (I will spare you a discussion of the frailty of that term in the context of a video game).
And of course we have heard many times from many people that Vanguard players allegedly want a "challenging" game.
So, here's my question. If those three things are true, why not make it to where you cannot use raid gear during solo and group play? That way, you will need multiple gear sets (consistent with the Vision); the rewards for solo and group play will remain consistent with their intended risk (also consistent with the Vision); and the game would be more challenging (allegedly part of the Vision)?
The answer, of course, is that players who raid don't only raid. They also group and solo, and when they do they like to rip through that content like a hot knife through butter while decked out in god gear. The rewards they gain by doing that are not proportionate to their so-called risk. This is the essential hypocrisy of the Vision and a lot of other things that are said about the game.
There is no such thing as a challenging game where people can use items that remove the challenge.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
deleted
Uh huh. And now you sound just like the Vanguard fans. I've heard the same thing from fans of Vangaurd and fans of AoC and now I'm hearing it from a LotRO fan.
Tell me something...if raiding does not result in better rewards then what will motivate raiders to do raids? If you can come up with a good explanation for that I would be amazed.
Don't tell me that people will go on raids just for the hell of it. If people can get equal rewards without raiding then how do the devs intend to motivate people to do raids?
See, if they are putting raids in the game (and they are) they obviously want people to do it. So what will the motivation be?
The simple fact of life is that people won't do raids unless raiding results in the best rewards. That's just the way it is. That is why the raiding playstyle and non-raiding playstlye cannot co-exist peacefully in the same game. If non-raiding results in equal rewards it kills raiding. And for raiding to result in the best rewards then non-raiding progression has to STOP at some point (otherwise the rewards would catch up to raid rewards)....so raiding kills non-raiding.
I would be fascinated to hear how the LotRO devs plan to work around this. How can they motivate people to do raids if people can get the same rewards with the same time investment without having to do raids.
QFE
Your post added no information, only half-truths and added nothing to any debate. Seriously, this a point that can be debated, but off-topic opinions don't add to the debate.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
For #4 if a VAST majority of content is non-raid wouldn't it be trivial or close to trivial to make it completely non-raid?