Originally posted by IdesofMarch Originally posted by sebbonx I believe in order to have fun, a MOG must be a game first and foremost. You don't rely on your customers to "provide the fun". You provide it by making things as interesting and deep as possible to the individual and provide ways for said individual to desire accessing team oriented content, solo content, questing content, crafting content, etc. etc. etc. (All of them, equally). Isn't that why there are the "three spheres" of gameplay that are meant to involve all you just mentioned?
All this talk of "leveling". Leveling shouldn't matter. It should never be a concern of the players. "EQ is too slow... WoW is too fast... blah blah blah". If a game is FUN you don't care if it takes a year to level or a weekend. Did I say weekend? Yes. Guild Wars is a perfect example of a game where a power-gamer could hit the level 20 cap in one weekend. He/She is still gonna play it. Why? Because the game isn't about leveling. A majority of the PvE content is past the level cap. Anyways... the point is... a game shouldn't be about leveling in the first place. Ok, you say it shouldn't matter. But it does and has for years. You are playing a role-playing game. You play a character, and part of playing any game is progression. A lot of players like to have a noticeable progression as they play. They like to see their character grow, improve, and in other words look more badass over time. Levels, skills, stats, etc. - they give you that. Reaching the top tier after a weekend kills that sense of progression for a lot of folks. And before you say it shouldn't matter or this and that, you don't represent the entire MMO community. There are different personalities and stances on every single thing. What works for you doesn't work for the guy next to you. That's why there are as many successful and operating games as there are.If a game is fun, you still care what kind of progress you're making. You may not notice it as much, but I've always kept track in the back of my mind how I'm coming along. If things go too fast, you burn through levels and end up with a decked out character before you know it. And not everyone is a fan of making fifty alts and playing them. If it's too slow, you can get burned out in progressing through the game, no matter how good it is. Going right back to my previous point, not everyone is the same, and we all have our limits in terms of patience.Yes, it's about fun and enjoying yourself. But don't kid yourself and pretend that leveling doesn't and shouldn't matter, when it does to millions of gamers out there. This mindset could change over time, sure. But you can't expect the world to flip a switch and suddenly want wide open-ended gameplay, and the industry to turn around and change what they're doing at the drop of a dime.
As for "forced grouping / interdependency " building a community.... that's pretty much BS, IMO. Yes, like-minded "nut-grinders" who like the idea of "uber guilds" are a community too. (But a niche community)
Yes, the ability (itself) to group fosters a community, but so do lots of other things in a MOG... and do so at a more natural flow, like guild mechanics, trading, randomly helping someone in trouble, etc. etc. etc. A "force mechanic or design" causes people that are not "like minded" to quit, since there is no "freedom of playstyle" (or so perceived by the bulk of the playerbase). So the bottom line is... The difference between Brad and I... "focus on one playstyle and make it as fun as possible for THAT playstyle alone" vs. "support many playstyles and make it as fun as possible for ALL of them." Aren't they trying to cater to more playstyles? From all that I've read in articles and Brad's posts, that's a pretty highlighted aim of Vanguard, whether or not it achieves/fails at it. And your arguement of where you and Brad differ could go for just about any game in the market today. There is no perfect game that does it all and does it for everyDudesbody.
Dudes, all I know is that I don't want to raid anymore and I'm not looking for any handouts, I played EQ1 for 6 years. Is asking for a non raid server such an evil request? I don't mind raiders having their servers why should they (raiders) mind a non raid server? It's like they've been insulted or offended by the mere suggestion of a non raid server. How sad this crap is. Brad has proven willing to let go of his relationship with Microsoft to pursue his Vision. While having the courage to stick to his Vision is commendable it bodes ill for some (non raiders and non grinders (those who don't want to grind 4 to 12 plus hours a day)). So far Brad has said he knows people don't want the grind or can't do it cause of circumstances in their life and is willing to tone down his Vision to accomodate them, but he seems religous in his stance of "no man is an island concept" which means by yourself you won't go far in his games. In fact you'll prolly suffer a heavy exp penalty for soloing. I personally think he'd be more honest if he came out and said if you want to solo then this game isn't for you. But he won't because the game is a commercial effort after all, bottom line they want to make money and they think it's possible even though they know they won't appeal to the mainstream.
Spiritglow
P.S. One of these days I'll create a post about Brads "no man is an island " concept and where it comes from and it's ramifications for us players.
Originally posted by Warmechh Lol. Guild Wars still has grouping/instancing. In Guild Wars your FORCED to group....so I don't understand what your complaining about. They are not having raids like WoW raids...... They are not having raid-free servers so FORGET ABOUT IT. Give it up...go to a different game...your not welcome here...... You want to go home and rethink your life *jedi mind trick*
Hm, let's see I'm a veteran of raiding and Guild Wars and I can tell you never played GW much. In GW there is no need to loot, hence no need to raid. In GW I can create a lvl 20 toon with maxed out gear. GW is a game thats dependant on skill, not hours played.
Raiding in itself isnt so bad but what makes it suck is raiding for 5+ hours and not get a drop. Loot tables suck, I'm not wasting my time raiding for 5+ hrs for a 5% chance for a virtual item to drop. So, a lot of the non-raid sentiment is probably steming from that. edit- personally I like to group and I personally would enjoy raiding if I could easily get the gear w/o a major time committment. I personally love rpgs howevr I cant invest over 2-3+ hrs ina single session. And I'm not naive- I know most MMO gamers want to keep going they not gonna all just logout after 1-2 hrs "normally".
So the appeal of a non-raid server is good to casual gamers / PvPers cause that means a more balanced playing field w/o the need of whacking away on mobs for hours and hours. I know this sounds foolish but many pvpers I know dont care for PvE that much after they hit level cap.
Originally posted by Warmechh Lol. Guild Wars still has grouping/instancing. In Guild Wars your FORCED to group....so I don't understand what your complaining about. They are not having raids like WoW raids...... They are not having raid-free servers so FORGET ABOUT IT. Give it up...go to a different game...your not welcome here...... You want to go home and rethink your life *jedi mind trick*
Grouping In Guild Wars is not forced. You can experience the same content solo or grouped, recruit some henchmen or Heroes and you're set if you want to solo instead of group.
So raid content should be retooled to be done by about 5 people, and it should be redoable within 1-2 hours, which means that said content can be completed in under 1-2 hours, and loot should rain down from the sky? That about cover it?
Of course, if this ever did happen, you'd all just bitch that you had to run the dungeon more than once.
Maybe we could just cut out the whole process. You log in, and see before you a small chest. You open the chest, and find inside a full set of the very best gear for your class, and are promoted immediately to whatever the level cap is. You are then teleported to a large room with all the other players on the server, where you can all congratulate each other on your massive epeens.
Originally posted by Tithrielle How would a non-raid server even be implemented? Disable the high end dungeons/zones? Ban people if they are caught trying to take a mob with more than one group?
Who would actually want to play on a non-raid server except for a very small minority of players who feel 'stung' by the endgames of WoW and EQ?
It is funny how you think that a smaller minority, uber-raiders, deserve precedence over "a very small minority" which outnumber raiders(not just the uber raiders, the whole bunch of raiders) at least 10 to 1.
Raid-free servers or die!
Implementing non-raid server is EASY. You don't remove anything, you ADD all raid-loot on a grouping mode, that is unquestionnably "easier" than raiding, then if you want to put some challenge back, you make the regular grouping stuff harder; not those competing with raid, as they are there to actually create a raid-free experience.
I see a LOT of peoples insulting me or raid-free defenders, but I see them unable to bring ANY logic, they go ranting over many paragraphs or meaningless ranting...see, if you can't speak simple, you don't get it.
Best groupers deserve to be groupers, first and foremost. I don't see how I can write that any simpler, and if someone don't get it, they shouldn't bother arguing since they obviously fail at understanding the basic. If raiding make peoples better at grouping, than grouping is irrelevant and dead before existing. Simple, logical and efficient.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by mlambert890 "Simple, logical and efficient"? I honestly have no clue at all what you are even attempting to say here. Does anyone know what the above means? Re-read your post and tell me that you see your point coming through clearly there.
Beside insulting me, you achieve nothing here. If you fail at understanding, I could try to explain again for you to get it better. Maybe if I use simpler words.
I *think* what you *may* be trying to say is that the primary indicator of if a game is geared towards grouping (vs raiding or soloing) is if most groups are looking for "groupers" to join them. If this is what you're saying, it's patently ridiculous. Only on idiotic forums where people talk, whine and complain about gaming rather than playing (b/c for them, talking and complaining is what the TRULY enjoy), are things so cut and dry as this.
If someone is idiotic here, it isn't me. I have no self-estime problem. The point is, I enjoy grouping and/or soloing. If I want to solo to my heart content, there is Oblivion and many other games that I go and solo. If I want to group and have a good grouping experience, then I have always to deal with PvP or Raiding, and this is killing grouping.
What is a "grouper"? What is a "raider"? What is a "soloer"? It's infuriating how these things are boxed so neatly on these threads. Any MMO is going to have BIG challenging content (NOT necessarily at the end game either!) that requires more than 1 group to defeat. Generally, the items gained from these encounters (there must be SOME reward in ANY game right?) is going to be better since the challenge is bigger.
LOL. That is ridiculous. BIG challenging content WITHIN the gameplay, not by suddenly multiplying the amount of players or whatever. You have a gameplay, you have to respect it rules. If you change the rules at the end and create a boring and uninspiring gameplay and reward peoples who do it, you are plainly lame.
There is nothing wrong with that. A game that didnt have that would need to probably be completely PVP focused (like Guild Wars) or it would get boring. I think EVERYONE who plays any of these MMOs finds themselves participating in those types of encounters now and again. So we ALL "raid". And I dont think there are too many people who really refuse to group EVER (of course there is the occasional oddball who is anti-social yet chooses to play a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game). So we are ALL "groupers".
Nope, a game can END or keep going. Refusing to end and forcing players into PvP or Raiding is a worser scenario than ending would be. You have a gameplay, you have a logic, you have set rules. See, in old EQ, a group is composed of 6 players. This is what you learn from level 1 to the end. Putting a distinct gameplay that make peoples better at grouping would have been acceptable on SOME servers, not on every and certainly not at the expanse of grouping. Ending is better than that. But you don't have to end, you can have items that are always better, but are requiring exponential stuff, this isn't exactly the most appealing, but at least it remain within the same gameplay and it never end, just like unlimited levels.
The problem here is, they remove unlimited levels, yet they still want the benefit from it. I say gimme back my unlimited levels, or end. But I am open to any suggestion that doesn't involve a foreign gameplay such as raiding or PvP.
In every game, on every server, there are always (quite naturally) unions of those who play the MOST. There is nothing wrong with that. To "fix" it you'd have to artificially level playtime which would be pathetic capitulation to those who can't deal with a societal hierarchy. Those folks with the high playtime tend to get branded as "raiders" because most games rely on raiding to fill the time once your character is maxed out. MOST, but not all. PVP games generally feature these same folks dominating PVP.
Unions, whatever, eh, wake-up call! We are talking of a FOREIGN gameplay that screw the MAIN gameplay, which most peoples are playing the game for.
So this has nothing to do with play style (grouping, raiding, solo). Everyone does all three of those. This debate on this thread is, as usual, coming down to this pathetic "haves" vs "have nots" conflict that exists in every community and afflicts some percentage of the population.
LOL. This is a joke. Everything has to do with the play style. See, peoples who want to be good at soloing are peoples who solo, aka not peoples who group or raid. Peoples who want to be good at grouping, they are peoples who group. Only jerks are happy to benefit from such a weak enforcement.
"Raid free" servers are truly sad. They would basically be made up of the people who wear their lack of playtime like some kind of badge of honor, but yet are so embittered over it they don't want to even be NEAR those who have more playtime than them. The irony is that even on the non-raid servers, there will be those with higher playtime than average. And as a result, the hierarchy will exist and the people whose really problem is that they need some psychological counseling will find themselves bitter and frustrated AGAIN. Because even without "raiding" there will have to be SOME "end game" or "big event" type content and those that scream loudest for this type of segregation will no DOUBT end up "second class".
I have more play time than most folks at FoH or Afterlife and I could actually teach most of their chanter on how to behave in a group; to be a better chanter. You are talking nonsense.
I would love to hear a rational explanation of what the upside would be of a server that deliberately removes certain content (content that tends to be the more interesting content in most games, to be honest). The people that LOVE this idea - what the heck is it you feel you are gaining?! You'll be the only losers since most normal people would stay far away from a server that "offered" less content at the SAME PRICE, so think carefully about what you're looking for.
"Rational" to you is pretty irrational. Talking with you is entertaining but far from enlightening.
I think the above post is calling for a server that gives all of the rewards of raiding but hands them out only to people who group. Either that, or a server where "the best you can be" comes only from grouping and there is no raiding. Well I'll tell you what - here comes the slippery slope. Next soloers will complain that "groupers" get "all the good stuff" and "why should they have to group". I guess a "solo only" server is next? And what about the groupers who have more time than average? Should there be a "non-raid - casual grouper" subserver that hands out great rewards for even the most minimal effort???
Solo only servers would be fine with me. I see no problem with them, although I would never play there, I would understand that some players would. Would there be enough, I don't know. Raid-free servers where peoples have to group would be the main servers and outnumbers the raiding servers within a month, so yes, raid-free servers are a good idea. I actually don't care about raiders. If they can't survive on their own, this isn't my problem; anyway they wouldn't die, they would return to what they are naturally meant to be. Best groupers deserve to be groupers.
People that feel they "need" these things should really revaluate these types of games. I dont think they're healthy for you. I've gone from very high playtime to very low playtime in a dozen different MMOs and currently keep three different MMO accounts alive that I dabble in. None of these "issues" have ever caused me stress like this. I dont NEED to have "the best" gear. I've never run into a game, contrary to the FUD, where I could do NOTHING because I wasnt "the best". And if there is something I'd like to have that requires a raid, then I try to put the effort in to get it. If I cant, well then I live without it. You know - kind of like LIFE. What do you people do in your real life? Do you want Ferrari banned or something b/c you'll probably never afford one?
Again the $0.02 logic. Than I hope you suck and enjoy sucking. Personnally when I play a game, I play to master it, weither I succeed or not is up to me and my skills/tactics, not weither a foreign gameplay destroy it or not. I won't raid. Period. So, if raiding is the only way to master a game, I won't play the game; period. Other peoples who are more casuals would avoid a raiding experience for similar or different reasons. But me, I have to DREAM. And raiding remove that dream, completely.
Talking with you was most unpleasant as you are harsh, unlogical, trash and insulting. I was tempted to report you, but I figure it would be better for your own progression to be treated the way you treat other.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
There wont be a non raiding server. Its normal server and a possibility of pvp ruleset server. In the future, there could be a progression server like the ones in eq. This non raiding thread has been discussed mutiple times just let it die already. It's not like there is a " small' chance that Sigil will implement a "non raiding" server ruleset for the minority. Minorities are the ones that cry for a non raiding server ruleset.
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by Tithrielle How would a non-raid server even be implemented? Disable the high end dungeons/zones? Ban people if they are caught trying to take a mob with more than one group? Who would actually want to play on a non-raid server except for a very small minority of players who feel 'stung' by the endgames of WoW and EQ?
It is funny how you think that a smaller minority, uber-raiders, deserve precedence over "a very small minority" which outnumber raiders(not just the uber raiders, the whole bunch of raiders) at least 10 to 1.
Raid-free servers or die!
Implementing non-raid server is EASY. You don't remove anything, you ADD all raid-loot on a grouping mode, that is unquestionnably "easier" than raiding, then if you want to put some challenge back, you make the regular grouping stuff harder; not those competing with raid, as they are there to actually create a raid-free experience.
I see a LOT of peoples insulting me or raid-free defenders, but I see them unable to bring ANY logic, they go ranting over many paragraphs or meaningless ranting...see, if you can't speak simple, you don't get it.
Best groupers deserve to be groupers, first and foremost. I don't see how I can write that any simpler, and if someone don't get it, they shouldn't bother arguing since they obviously fail at understanding the basic. If raiding make peoples better at grouping, than grouping is irrelevant and dead before existing. Simple, logical and efficient.
I'd pay money to see your proof that you, and your nonraid people, outnumber raiders.
And what the hell is this best groupers crap you keep spouting over and over? You may not be able to write it any simpler, but maybe you could write it so it made an iota of sense. Being good at grouping? What, you can slap five mouthbreathers together faster than someone else? Do you even know what raiding is?
Your arguement still boils down to "I want raid level loot, but I don't want to have to do anything to get it" At least I think it does, because frankly, I have no idea what point you're even trying to make.
Should be like DAoC you could raid if you wanted to but, crafted items were as good if not better. That was pre TOA expansion anyway. Max lvl in DAoC was by far the most most fun ive had in any mmo to date. WOW was ok till lvl 60 then the true grind began.
Not everyone has hours to wait and mobilize with 40 people to do raids every night just to get gear to compete with people who do. I should not be forced to raid in order to be competetive. Raiding should be an option for those who enjoy it but those who dont should have an alternative way to aquire the same quality gear.
DONT FORCE PEOPLE INTO A PLAYSTYLE THEY DO NOT ENJOY.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Originally posted by Tithrielle How would a non-raid server even be implemented? Disable the high end dungeons/zones? Ban people if they are caught trying to take a mob with more than one group? Who would actually want to play on a non-raid server except for a very small minority of players who feel 'stung' by the endgames of WoW and EQ?
It is funny how you think that a smaller minority, uber-raiders, deserve precedence over "a very small minority" which outnumber raiders(not just the uber raiders, the whole bunch of raiders) at least 10 to 1.
Raid-free servers or die!
Implementing non-raid server is EASY. You don't remove anything, you ADD all raid-loot on a grouping mode, that is unquestionnably "easier" than raiding, then if you want to put some challenge back, you make the regular grouping stuff harder; not those competing with raid, as they are there to actually create a raid-free experience.
I see a LOT of peoples insulting me or raid-free defenders, but I see them unable to bring ANY logic, they go ranting over many paragraphs or meaningless ranting...see, if you can't speak simple, you don't get it.
Best groupers deserve to be groupers, first and foremost. I don't see how I can write that any simpler, and if someone don't get it, they shouldn't bother arguing since they obviously fail at understanding the basic. If raiding make peoples better at grouping, than grouping is irrelevant and dead before existing. Simple, logical and efficient.
I'd pay money to see your proof that you, and your nonraid people, outnumber raiders.
And what the hell is this best groupers crap you keep spouting over and over? You may not be able to write it any simpler, but maybe you could write it so it made an iota of sense. Being good at grouping? What, you can slap five mouthbreathers together faster than someone else? Do you even know what raiding is?
Your arguement still boils down to "I want raid level loot, but I don't want to have to do anything to get it" At least I think it does, because frankly, I have no idea what point you're even trying to make.
Its been proven that the majority of people on vanguard official server doesnt want a non raiding server, its obvious. MMorpg.com forum is much different then official vanguard forum. Anofalye thinks that majority of players wants a non raiding server ruleset for vanguard, unfortunately for him, he is wrong. The majority of vanguard players opposes such ruleset in vanguard official forum. Having said that, at this point in time, I highly doubted Sigil will release a non raiding server.
Originally posted by Coldmeat Who the hell are you competing with? It's a pve server. If you opt to play on a pvp server, well, then you know the risks going in.
FoH, AL, LoS and LoS to start with.
But I guess that to you, this competition on a PvE server is something you can't grasp. Making a serverwide first IS important. And grouping serverwide firsts should be made by groupers, not by raiders when they can't raid for any reason. If you can't understand that, there is nothing I could add here.
Having every groupers DREAM to be there, doing a serverwide first, or at least to do the BEST grouping as to offer, this is something important. Cater to FoHish trash all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you cater to a tiny minority rather than to a significantly more numerous amount of peoples, and when the subscribtions numbers show off for Vanguard, it will be too late already as peoples will just have pass to something else.
See players like me, despite all our flaws, we do PUG...a LOT. It is a true test of hardcoreness. What is more healthy to the game? Peoples doing PUG like me and trying to beat the crap out of FoHish noobs or peoples sticking to close-knit group and not interacting with the remaining of the server? Despite all my flaws, despite all my weakness, I can say safely that during my EQ playing time, I was more known on the server than most uber-raiders, simply because I PUG all the time with anyone, everyone, anywhere, everywhere. What keep a game healthy; PUG-dooers or raiders? Ask yourself; as raiders have proven they hate PUGs and they are too noobish to do them... On new expansions I receive tons of messages sounding like: "Go on, beat LoS to level cap, you can do it! Go ahead" Man, casuals encouraging me and even going as far as making groups in turn and rotation in order to see me level as fast as these trash players. Now, I am not THAT competitive, but see, it did come from casuals! They where wanting me to play more, at expansion release...and I more or less comply and I did reach the level cap about the 30ish on my server, which was more or less good...all I could find to make them smile was: Eh none ever con-red to me beside *insert 1 raider name, but a nice raider so I won't trash him here; he wins fair and square*. yet I max AAs before any raiders(prolly made a serverwide first on mid-march 2003 for maxing AAs, but I don't know for sure, it sure was a server first)! I don't think I was worthy of such attention, but eh, they NEED to believe, so I kinda try. I wish these casuals would have gotten a real grouping champion however, and I don't think I am THAT good, just kinda close...trying to...not yet there and prolly never going to get there, as I am getting in my middle 30ish, it is unlikely that I will outdo my younger self...so...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I really dont want to play another game thats completly Loot based like wow. They made 2 factions ( similer to DAoC) but they never really added any WAR to the game, only a couple small battle grounds. Why play hours on end to get uber loot to just have to do it over and over again as they keep putting better loot in the game to raid for. Its never ending loot or raid grinds. Imo no game so far can compair to the content DAoC had ( pre TOA anyway) at max lvl.
Raiding, in some form, is present in every MMORPG. Everquest was notorious for raiding, so I don't believe I need to elaborate on that. Lineage II was pretty much just a giant raid, atleast timewise, to level-up. The same holds true for RF Online... the list goes on.
Let me try to throw out a general, and very vague, deifnition of raiding. It, essentially, is something you go on to either a) kill a monster, b) get a chance for awesome loot, or the combination. However, how is this different from farming? You may say that the time dedication, but if you farm, don't you generally play the same amount of hours, if not more, than a raid? In Guild Wars, in order to get the armor crafted, you need to farm for cash and materials, which can take awhile. If you don't agree with the idea of farming, then you're long lost in the world of MMORPGs. I see raiding as nothing more than an extention of farming, that requires a lot more people. Not everyone wants to solo to max level, then create new characters without putting their characters, and equipment, to the test. If you don't like the idea that some people may have more time or dedication to play the game and achieve better equipment through raids, then go back to Trammel on Ultima Online. That's a pretty selfish idea, wanting the whole game's basis to revolve around your time dedication.
The point of offering raiding, is that it gives more options to more people. The game is suppose to include all types of players, whether it be grouping/raiding addicts, or soloers. If you disagree with this, then go back to the Hack and Slash known as WoW, where all you need is a 2nd grade reading level and a shorter attention span than a gerbil.
One thing, that people fail to realize, is that these types of games allure the 'true' MMORPGers. I don't mean those guys that play WoW and pretend they're the best things ever just because they have the best gear -- I mean people that are actually good and skilled at games. Where people actually know how to play their classes, and perform in groups/tight situations. And, these are the types of people that like to Raid, to do something truely challanging.
If you're threatening not to play a game just because it offers Raid content for those players truely dedicated to this genre, then I suggest you find a different genre of games, and learn the whole 'sharing' concept that you were suppose to pick up in kidnergarden.
But raiding is a FOREIGN gameplay, that has nothing to do with grouping.
Farming, as you say, it is still grouping (or soloing); so it is still the same gameplay. Raiding is a different gameplay where you need 10+ players; this has nothing to do with grouping; it is a DIFFERENT gameplay. I have nothing for or against farming; I just say that at least, it is the same gameplay, so it is at least logical even if it may lack some taste or not.
If raiding was an OPTION, sure, fine, but it has EXCLUSIVE rewards that everyone will want if they think about progressing; group-wise, past a point. Thereby raiding is not an option, but an obligation, and this is problematic. Nobody should have to raid in order to improve his grouping performances; ever.
Slapping a new gameplay at the end of what the players enjoy, this is quite cheap and not fun at all, unless you actually enjoy the new gameplay, but no matter if you enjoy it or not; you shaft everyone who doesn't while they where enjoying the game up to that point. Ending is better than raiding; on every layer. Players that are happy are better than players that are arguing on forums like I am now, have no doubt about that. And peoples leaving unhappy quietly; it is the worst possible outcome for the company, as they lose, permanently, customers. At least, despite my yapping, I still WANT them to improve and go past this problematic they seems unable to overcome. See, raiding is harming their companies in the long run...as even raiders MOST of the time just plan on never raiding again, thereby they will consider a raid-free experience as automatically superior...and non-raiders, shall we really talk about the overwhelming majority of players?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Lemmings666 If you're threatening not to play a game just because it offers Raid content for those players truely dedicated to this genre, then I suggest you find a different genre of games, and learn the whole 'sharing' concept that you were suppose to pick up in kidnergarden.
Raiders want to keep these toys for themselves alone...this ain't sharing...ain't sharing at all. A grouper shouldn't have to become a raider to be a better grouper...you can't ask that, it isn't fair. We need to SHARE EVERYTHING; or then have completely independant gameplays that don't mix at all; in either case, best groupers are groupers.
I am soooo tired to always repeat the same stuff, always answer the same circular cheap arguments. You guys are always bringing the same stuff over and over and over again; yet you are wrong. And as such, I will never give in, no matter how tired I am. Since I am right, and the righteousness give endless resolve. Any game that enforce raiding on groupers is wrong, totally wrong. You're core players are grouping, you have to make it a grouping experience; all the way to the end/neverend. You can't switch gameplays like it was Mario Party; not when peoples are invested that much in their characters.
EDIT: As to the dedication...I became a Game Designer...I write over 4k message on this forum...I send TONS of feedback to Verant/SoE/Vanguard/Cryptic/NCsoft...I PLAY a lot, get 4 toons to max level in CoX, was prolly the first to max AAs in EQ serverwide, I achieve everything there is to achieve by grouping/soloing in the game I play UNTIL something like raiding strike me...I dunno what more you want as dedication; raiding itself is not dedication...I could do it, it would be easy; but it would be beside the point. It shouldn't be done by raiding, and THAT is the point; I don't mind that much to med with the old book, but I would never twitch a bard even if it is easy, since there is a fine line that was crossed that shouldn't be; however in the bard example, it is the same gameplay from level 1 to the end, so it was fine no matter how wretched this class was; while raiding, it storm you at the end, which really suck. I don't care if I "WIN" or "LOSE" a game that much, but HOW I win or lose matter a lot, and raiding is plainly not acceptable when I am grouping, period. Bottomline: Raiding isn't fair to groupers, and THAT is the point. If I trust peoples for hundred of day played...they have to be fair with me, it matter a LOT. FAIRNESS is also a concept you learn at kindergarden and as you know, no kid will ever accept an unfair treatment, they may go quietly but that is worser than the brat who start a rebellion if needed. To expect me to be better than a kid while I play...it isn't realistic, when I play I am 5 years old and I am making fun; and as such you have responsabilities to make it FUN and FAIR. Raiding isn't fair, raiders deserve squat, they play a foreign gameplay that has nothing to do with grouping.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Raiding.....what was once a user created game mechanic is now actually built into games. For those who played the old EQ, you know what I'm talking about. Before Luclin, Raid's were an informal agreement between a number of groups. There was no Raid UI, Raid Exp, or even a Raid Channel.
MMORPG's started from the idea of playing RPG's online instead of using pen and paper and dice. For anyone that has played these types of games would know, the most people at the table at any given time was usually no more than 10, and even that's pushing it. Groups of four or five would be able to dispatch what would require 40 people in WoW. This made you feel special, like an adventurer, and most certainly not like a number.
Though Raids have since made themselves an almost required mechanic for games these days, it is my hope that Sigil will:
a) Keep the raiding to a minimum. Keep the majority of the game for groups, with a little bit of raiding and a little bit of soloing, just like you mentioned. ;
b) When people do raid, keep the numbers down. Even WoW realizes that 40 people is a stupid number and needs to bring it down. IMHO 25 people is sitll too much, but it's an improvement. To be honest, 12 people at most, with the abilities that adventurer's have, should be able to do some wonderful things.
Originally posted by Coldmeat So raid content should be retooled to be done by about 5 people, and it should be redoable within 1-2 hours, which means that said content can be completed in under 1-2 hours, and loot should rain down from the sky? That about cover it?Of course, if this ever did happen, you'd all just bitch that you had to run the dungeon more than once.Maybe we could just cut out the whole process. You log in, and see before you a small chest. You open the chest, and find inside a full set of the very best gear for your class, and are promoted immediately to whatever the level cap is. You are then teleported to a large room with all the other players on the server, where you can all congratulate each other on your massive epeens.
Nope, what you would have is the same game without raiding, that's all. Maybe some encounters would need two groups to take a mob down for an epic or something but you wouldn't have zones expressly for raiding. RPG's have been around for a long time without raiding. You can have content thats challenging for groups without resorting to raiding on a massive scale. You can have tiered group content. Raiding is the easy way out for devs to make an endgame and at the same time puffs up ego and pride unbalancing the game simply because most people once they get a taste of raiding would prefer not to. Yet still most people are not calling for the end of raiding we just want non raid server and if we don't get it that's ok, others will make games without raiding like Guild Wars has. If they build it more will come : )
Originally posted by Binny45 Raiding.....what was once a user created game mechanic is now actually built into games. For those who played the old EQ, you know what I'm talking about. Before Luclin, Raid's were an informal agreement between a number of groups. There was no Raid UI, Raid Exp, or even a Raid Channel. MMORPG's started from the idea of playing RPG's online instead of using pen and paper and dice. For anyone that has played these types of games would know, the most people at the table at any given time was usually no more than 10, and even that's pushing it. Groups of four or five would be able to dispatch what would require 40 people in WoW. This made you feel special, like an adventurer, and most certainly not like a number. Though Raids have since made themselves an almost required mechanic for games these days, it is my hope that Sigil will: a) Keep the raiding to a minimum. Keep the majority of the game for groups, with a little bit of raiding and a little bit of soloing, just like you mentioned. ; b) When people do raid, keep the numbers down. Even WoW realizes that 40 people is a stupid number and needs to bring it down. IMHO 25 people is sitll too much, but it's an improvement. To be honest, 12 people at most, with the abilities that adventurer's have, should be able to do some wonderful things. Just my 2cp worth.
I agree, raiding has taken on a life of it's own. Two groups at most for the hardest content and that content could tuned for different type of groups. I played EQ1 back in the day as well before raiding became the beast that it is today. Mmorpgs went in the right direction but have just taken it too far imo. It takes very little skill to raid except for putting it together. My group encounters in Splitpaw with crappy gear were more challenging than the average raid. Every member had to be on the money contributing or someone died and everyone knew if someone was a subpar player. Now you can just show up for a raid cast a few massive dps spells heal and rez and you're done. You don't even have to really know your class well, and do this for hours on end and you get the best gear in the game and now you're elite lol. Back in the day if you had your class armors folks knew you could play well and had in game experience and wanted you in their group. Now you can raid and get the best gear without having to become a skilled player.
Originally posted by Vanguarde Give it up already on this debate, Sigil isnt going to do it. Just let this topic die already because arguing this is pointless.
The debate is not pointless because even if Vanguard doesn't have raid servers, we who do not want to raid have a voice and we're expressing that voice and sooner or later someone will step up to the plate and deliver more non raiding games like Guild Wars or WoW pre raid. You won't be able to stop progress. You've lost but don't know it yet. In time mmorpgs will more and more offer the freedom of choice of play and will make more money for offering choice like WoW and Guild Wars has. Sure WoW now has raiding but they got their massive subs before raiding was implemented.
1) No, people really don't care about server firsts. Or game firsts, even. Yeah, they might say grats on the forums, or whatever, but nowadays it's just not that big of a deal, really.
2)I don't recall anyone ever, in any game, claim a group first. It would be funny, I suppose. Make a post on the forums, "Dude, our group totaly made a serverwide first today, when we cleared the camp of foozles NE of nowhere! Go Go Team Drumstick!". I'm sure the applause would be deafening.
3) Raiding is not foreign gameplay. It's simply an extention of grouping. A group of groups, if you will. It's not as if the mechanics of the game somehow change in a raid; tanks still tank, dps classes still dps, healers still heal.
4) As for competing with the 'uber guilds' well, I hate to break it to you, but you probably won't be competing with them for the nonraid content. Certainly not for more than a day or two. You'll be 'competing' with the rank and file of the server for that content, since it isn't instanced. So even if there was no raid content, you'd still be stuck sitting outside of some dungeon, with no mobs to kill. Actually, with raid content available, you actually will have less competition for your single group content, so you should probably be glad.
It's just a fact of life. Everyone is not equal. There will be people with more free time than you. They will always be ahead of you because of this. What next? Kicking people out of the game for 24 hours after they've been online for some amount of time, so that you can keep up?
Originally posted by Vanguarde Give it up already on this debate, Sigil isnt going to do it. Just let this topic die already because arguing this is pointless.
Raiding content is only 20%, and of course this has been debated numerous times already.
Originally posted by Vanguarde Originally posted by Vanguarde Give it up already on this debate, Sigil isnt going to do it. Just let this topic die already because arguing this is pointless.
Raiding content is only 20%, and of course this has been debated numerous times already. We want freedom of choice of playstyle for everyone including YOU. You want to raid? Fine, raid to your hearts content. If that's your hearts content then do it with a Raid only server or a Raid/Group server or a Raid/Group/Solo server. But for those that want to play on a non raid server or a Group/Solo server they should get their wish as well. If you are secure in you're personal choice of playstyle, why would you attempt to deny another person their choice of playstyle?
Comments
Dudes, all I know is that I don't want to raid anymore and I'm not looking for any handouts, I played EQ1 for 6 years. Is asking for a non raid server such an evil request? I don't mind raiders having their servers why should they (raiders) mind a non raid server? It's like they've been insulted or offended by the mere suggestion of a non raid server. How sad this crap is. Brad has proven willing to let go of his relationship with Microsoft to pursue his Vision. While having the courage to stick to his Vision is commendable it bodes ill for some (non raiders and non grinders (those who don't want to grind 4 to 12 plus hours a day)). So far Brad has said he knows people don't want the grind or can't do it cause of circumstances in their life and is willing to tone down his Vision to accomodate them, but he seems religous in his stance of "no man is an island concept" which means by yourself you won't go far in his games. In fact you'll prolly suffer a heavy exp penalty for soloing. I personally think he'd be more honest if he came out and said if you want to solo then this game isn't for you. But he won't because the game is a commercial effort after all, bottom line they want to make money and they think it's possible even though they know they won't appeal to the mainstream.
Spiritglow
P.S. One of these days I'll create a post about Brads "no man is an island "
concept and where it comes from and it's ramifications for us players.
Hm, let's see I'm a veteran of raiding and Guild Wars and I can tell you never played GW much. In GW there is no need to loot, hence no need to raid. In GW I can create a lvl 20 toon with maxed out gear. GW is a game thats dependant on skill, not hours played.
Raiding in itself isnt so bad but what makes it suck is raiding for 5+ hours and not get a drop. Loot tables suck, I'm not wasting my time raiding for 5+ hrs for a 5% chance for a virtual item to drop. So, a lot of the non-raid sentiment is probably steming from that. edit- personally I like to group and I personally would enjoy raiding if I could easily get the gear w/o a major time committment. I personally love rpgs howevr I cant invest over 2-3+ hrs ina single session. And I'm not naive- I know most MMO gamers want to keep going they not gonna all just logout after 1-2 hrs "normally".
So the appeal of a non-raid server is good to casual gamers / PvPers cause that means a more balanced playing field w/o the need of whacking away on mobs for hours and hours. I know this sounds foolish but many pvpers I know dont care for PvE that much after they hit level cap.
Spiritglow
So raid content should be retooled to be done by about 5 people, and it should be redoable within 1-2 hours, which means that said content can be completed in under 1-2 hours, and loot should rain down from the sky? That about cover it?
Of course, if this ever did happen, you'd all just bitch that you had to run the dungeon more than once.
Maybe we could just cut out the whole process. You log in, and see before you a small chest. You open the chest, and find inside a full set of the very best gear for your class, and are promoted immediately to whatever the level cap is. You are then teleported to a large room with all the other players on the server, where you can all congratulate each other on your massive epeens.
It is funny how you think that a smaller minority, uber-raiders, deserve precedence over "a very small minority" which outnumber raiders(not just the uber raiders, the whole bunch of raiders) at least 10 to 1.
Raid-free servers or die!
Implementing non-raid server is EASY. You don't remove anything, you ADD all raid-loot on a grouping mode, that is unquestionnably "easier" than raiding, then if you want to put some challenge back, you make the regular grouping stuff harder; not those competing with raid, as they are there to actually create a raid-free experience.
I see a LOT of peoples insulting me or raid-free defenders, but I see them unable to bring ANY logic, they go ranting over many paragraphs or meaningless ranting...see, if you can't speak simple, you don't get it.
Best groupers deserve to be groupers, first and foremost. I don't see how I can write that any simpler, and if someone don't get it, they shouldn't bother arguing since they obviously fail at understanding the basic. If raiding make peoples better at grouping, than grouping is irrelevant and dead before existing. Simple, logical and efficient.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Raid-free servers or die!
Implementing non-raid server is EASY. You don't remove anything, you ADD all raid-loot on a grouping mode, that is unquestionnably "easier" than raiding, then if you want to put some challenge back, you make the regular grouping stuff harder; not those competing with raid, as they are there to actually create a raid-free experience.
I see a LOT of peoples insulting me or raid-free defenders, but I see them unable to bring ANY logic, they go ranting over many paragraphs or meaningless ranting...see, if you can't speak simple, you don't get it.
Best groupers deserve to be groupers, first and foremost. I don't see how I can write that any simpler, and if someone don't get it, they shouldn't bother arguing since they obviously fail at understanding the basic. If raiding make peoples better at grouping, than grouping is irrelevant and dead before existing. Simple, logical and efficient.
I'd pay money to see your proof that you, and your nonraid people, outnumber raiders.
And what the hell is this best groupers crap you keep spouting over and over? You may not be able to write it any simpler, but maybe you could write it so it made an iota of sense. Being good at grouping? What, you can slap five mouthbreathers together faster than someone else? Do you even know what raiding is?
Your arguement still boils down to "I want raid level loot, but I don't want to have to do anything to get it" At least I think it does, because frankly, I have no idea what point you're even trying to make.
Should be like DAoC you could raid if you wanted to but, crafted items were as good if not better. That was pre TOA expansion anyway. Max lvl in DAoC was by far the most most fun ive had in any mmo to date. WOW was ok till lvl 60 then the true grind began.
searching for the next DAoC....
Kay-exile
Raiding blows.....
Not everyone has hours to wait and mobilize with 40 people to do raids every night just to get gear to compete with people who do. I should not be forced to raid in order to be competetive. Raiding should be an option for those who enjoy it but those who dont should have an alternative way to aquire the same quality gear.
DONT FORCE PEOPLE INTO A PLAYSTYLE THEY DO NOT ENJOY.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Who the hell are you competing with? It's a pve server. If you opt to play on a pvp server, well, then you know the risks going in.
That being said, no one is forcing you to raid. As a matter of fact, all I see is a vocal few trying to dictate their chosen playstyle on to others.
DON'T FORCE PEOPLE INTO A PLAYSTYLE THEY DO NOT ENJOY is a two way street.
Raid-free servers or die!
Implementing non-raid server is EASY. You don't remove anything, you ADD all raid-loot on a grouping mode, that is unquestionnably "easier" than raiding, then if you want to put some challenge back, you make the regular grouping stuff harder; not those competing with raid, as they are there to actually create a raid-free experience.
I see a LOT of peoples insulting me or raid-free defenders, but I see them unable to bring ANY logic, they go ranting over many paragraphs or meaningless ranting...see, if you can't speak simple, you don't get it.
Best groupers deserve to be groupers, first and foremost. I don't see how I can write that any simpler, and if someone don't get it, they shouldn't bother arguing since they obviously fail at understanding the basic. If raiding make peoples better at grouping, than grouping is irrelevant and dead before existing. Simple, logical and efficient.
I'd pay money to see your proof that you, and your nonraid people, outnumber raiders.
And what the hell is this best groupers crap you keep spouting over and over? You may not be able to write it any simpler, but maybe you could write it so it made an iota of sense. Being good at grouping? What, you can slap five mouthbreathers together faster than someone else? Do you even know what raiding is?
Your arguement still boils down to "I want raid level loot, but I don't want to have to do anything to get it" At least I think it does, because frankly, I have no idea what point you're even trying to make.
Its been proven that the majority of people on vanguard official server doesnt want a non raiding server, its obvious. MMorpg.com forum is much different then official vanguard forum. Anofalye thinks that majority of players wants a non raiding server ruleset for vanguard, unfortunately for him, he is wrong. The majority of vanguard players opposes such ruleset in vanguard official forum. Having said that, at this point in time, I highly doubted Sigil will release a non raiding server.
FoH, AL, LoS and LoS to start with.
But I guess that to you, this competition on a PvE server is something you can't grasp. Making a serverwide first IS important. And grouping serverwide firsts should be made by groupers, not by raiders when they can't raid for any reason. If you can't understand that, there is nothing I could add here.
Having every groupers DREAM to be there, doing a serverwide first, or at least to do the BEST grouping as to offer, this is something important. Cater to FoHish trash all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you cater to a tiny minority rather than to a significantly more numerous amount of peoples, and when the subscribtions numbers show off for Vanguard, it will be too late already as peoples will just have pass to something else.
See players like me, despite all our flaws, we do PUG...a LOT. It is a true test of hardcoreness. What is more healthy to the game? Peoples doing PUG like me and trying to beat the crap out of FoHish noobs or peoples sticking to close-knit group and not interacting with the remaining of the server? Despite all my flaws, despite all my weakness, I can say safely that during my EQ playing time, I was more known on the server than most uber-raiders, simply because I PUG all the time with anyone, everyone, anywhere, everywhere. What keep a game healthy; PUG-dooers or raiders? Ask yourself; as raiders have proven they hate PUGs and they are too noobish to do them... On new expansions I receive tons of messages sounding like: "Go on, beat LoS to level cap, you can do it! Go ahead" Man, casuals encouraging me and even going as far as making groups in turn and rotation in order to see me level as fast as these trash players. Now, I am not THAT competitive, but see, it did come from casuals! They where wanting me to play more, at expansion release...and I more or less comply and I did reach the level cap about the 30ish on my server, which was more or less good...all I could find to make them smile was: Eh none ever con-red to me beside *insert 1 raider name, but a nice raider so I won't trash him here; he wins fair and square*. yet I max AAs before any raiders(prolly made a serverwide first on mid-march 2003 for maxing AAs, but I don't know for sure, it sure was a server first)! I don't think I was worthy of such attention, but eh, they NEED to believe, so I kinda try. I wish these casuals would have gotten a real grouping champion however, and I don't think I am THAT good, just kinda close...trying to...not yet there and prolly never going to get there, as I am getting in my middle 30ish, it is unlikely that I will outdo my younger self...so...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
searching for the next DAoC....
Kay-exile
Raiding, in some form, is present in every MMORPG. Everquest was notorious for raiding, so I don't believe I need to elaborate on that. Lineage II was pretty much just a giant raid, atleast timewise, to level-up. The same holds true for RF Online... the list goes on.
Let me try to throw out a general, and very vague, deifnition of raiding. It, essentially, is something you go on to either a) kill a monster, b) get a chance for awesome loot, or the combination. However, how is this different from farming? You may say that the time dedication, but if you farm, don't you generally play the same amount of hours, if not more, than a raid? In Guild Wars, in order to get the armor crafted, you need to farm for cash and materials, which can take awhile. If you don't agree with the idea of farming, then you're long lost in the world of MMORPGs. I see raiding as nothing more than an extention of farming, that requires a lot more people. Not everyone wants to solo to max level, then create new characters without putting their characters, and equipment, to the test. If you don't like the idea that some people may have more time or dedication to play the game and achieve better equipment through raids, then go back to Trammel on Ultima Online. That's a pretty selfish idea, wanting the whole game's basis to revolve around your time dedication.
The point of offering raiding, is that it gives more options to more people. The game is suppose to include all types of players, whether it be grouping/raiding addicts, or soloers. If you disagree with this, then go back to the Hack and Slash known as WoW, where all you need is a 2nd grade reading level and a shorter attention span than a gerbil.
One thing, that people fail to realize, is that these types of games allure the 'true' MMORPGers. I don't mean those guys that play WoW and pretend they're the best things ever just because they have the best gear -- I mean people that are actually good and skilled at games. Where people actually know how to play their classes, and perform in groups/tight situations. And, these are the types of people that like to Raid, to do something truely challanging.
If you're threatening not to play a game just because it offers Raid content for those players truely dedicated to this genre, then I suggest you find a different genre of games, and learn the whole 'sharing' concept that you were suppose to pick up in kidnergarden.
But raiding is a FOREIGN gameplay, that has nothing to do with grouping.
Farming, as you say, it is still grouping (or soloing); so it is still the same gameplay. Raiding is a different gameplay where you need 10+ players; this has nothing to do with grouping; it is a DIFFERENT gameplay. I have nothing for or against farming; I just say that at least, it is the same gameplay, so it is at least logical even if it may lack some taste or not.
If raiding was an OPTION, sure, fine, but it has EXCLUSIVE rewards that everyone will want if they think about progressing; group-wise, past a point. Thereby raiding is not an option, but an obligation, and this is problematic. Nobody should have to raid in order to improve his grouping performances; ever.
Slapping a new gameplay at the end of what the players enjoy, this is quite cheap and not fun at all, unless you actually enjoy the new gameplay, but no matter if you enjoy it or not; you shaft everyone who doesn't while they where enjoying the game up to that point. Ending is better than raiding; on every layer. Players that are happy are better than players that are arguing on forums like I am now, have no doubt about that. And peoples leaving unhappy quietly; it is the worst possible outcome for the company, as they lose, permanently, customers. At least, despite my yapping, I still WANT them to improve and go past this problematic they seems unable to overcome. See, raiding is harming their companies in the long run...as even raiders MOST of the time just plan on never raiding again, thereby they will consider a raid-free experience as automatically superior...and non-raiders, shall we really talk about the overwhelming majority of players?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Raiders want to keep these toys for themselves alone...this ain't sharing...ain't sharing at all. A grouper shouldn't have to become a raider to be a better grouper...you can't ask that, it isn't fair. We need to SHARE EVERYTHING; or then have completely independant gameplays that don't mix at all; in either case, best groupers are groupers.
I am soooo tired to always repeat the same stuff, always answer the same circular cheap arguments. You guys are always bringing the same stuff over and over and over again; yet you are wrong. And as such, I will never give in, no matter how tired I am. Since I am right, and the righteousness give endless resolve. Any game that enforce raiding on groupers is wrong, totally wrong. You're core players are grouping, you have to make it a grouping experience; all the way to the end/neverend. You can't switch gameplays like it was Mario Party; not when peoples are invested that much in their characters.
EDIT: As to the dedication...I became a Game Designer...I write over 4k message on this forum...I send TONS of feedback to Verant/SoE/Vanguard/Cryptic/NCsoft...I PLAY a lot, get 4 toons to max level in CoX, was prolly the first to max AAs in EQ serverwide, I achieve everything there is to achieve by grouping/soloing in the game I play UNTIL something like raiding strike me...I dunno what more you want as dedication; raiding itself is not dedication...I could do it, it would be easy; but it would be beside the point. It shouldn't be done by raiding, and THAT is the point; I don't mind that much to med with the old book, but I would never twitch a bard even if it is easy, since there is a fine line that was crossed that shouldn't be; however in the bard example, it is the same gameplay from level 1 to the end, so it was fine no matter how wretched this class was; while raiding, it storm you at the end, which really suck. I don't care if I "WIN" or "LOSE" a game that much, but HOW I win or lose matter a lot, and raiding is plainly not acceptable when I am grouping, period. Bottomline: Raiding isn't fair to groupers, and THAT is the point. If I trust peoples for hundred of day played...they have to be fair with me, it matter a LOT. FAIRNESS is also a concept you learn at kindergarden and as you know, no kid will ever accept an unfair treatment, they may go quietly but that is worser than the brat who start a rebellion if needed. To expect me to be better than a kid while I play...it isn't realistic, when I play I am 5 years old and I am making fun; and as such you have responsabilities to make it FUN and FAIR. Raiding isn't fair, raiders deserve squat, they play a foreign gameplay that has nothing to do with grouping.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Raiding.....what was once a user created game mechanic is now actually built into games. For those who played the old EQ, you know what I'm talking about. Before Luclin, Raid's were an informal agreement between a number of groups. There was no Raid UI, Raid Exp, or even a Raid Channel.
MMORPG's started from the idea of playing RPG's online instead of using pen and paper and dice. For anyone that has played these types of games would know, the most people at the table at any given time was usually no more than 10, and even that's pushing it. Groups of four or five would be able to dispatch what would require 40 people in WoW. This made you feel special, like an adventurer, and most certainly not like a number.
Though Raids have since made themselves an almost required mechanic for games these days, it is my hope that Sigil will:
a) Keep the raiding to a minimum. Keep the majority of the game for groups, with a little bit of raiding and a little bit of soloing, just like you mentioned. ;
b) When people do raid, keep the numbers down. Even WoW realizes that 40 people is a stupid number and needs to bring it down. IMHO 25 people is sitll too much, but it's an improvement. To be honest, 12 people at most, with the abilities that adventurer's have, should be able to do some wonderful things.
Just my 2cp worth.
Spiritglow
Spiritglow
Spiritglow
Points of order, Ano
1) No, people really don't care about server firsts. Or game firsts, even. Yeah, they might say grats on the forums, or whatever, but nowadays it's just not that big of a deal, really.
2)I don't recall anyone ever, in any game, claim a group first. It would be funny, I suppose. Make a post on the forums, "Dude, our group totaly made a serverwide first today, when we cleared the camp of foozles NE of nowhere! Go Go Team Drumstick!". I'm sure the applause would be deafening.
3) Raiding is not foreign gameplay. It's simply an extention of grouping. A group of groups, if you will. It's not as if the mechanics of the game somehow change in a raid; tanks still tank, dps classes still dps, healers still heal.
4) As for competing with the 'uber guilds' well, I hate to break it to you, but you probably won't be competing with them for the nonraid content. Certainly not for more than a day or two. You'll be 'competing' with the rank and file of the server for that content, since it isn't instanced. So even if there was no raid content, you'd still be stuck sitting outside of some dungeon, with no mobs to kill. Actually, with raid content available, you actually will have less competition for your single group content, so you should probably be glad.
It's just a fact of life. Everyone is not equal. There will be people with more free time than you. They will always be ahead of you because of this. What next? Kicking people out of the game for 24 hours after they've been online for some amount of time, so that you can keep up?
We want freedom of choice of playstyle for everyone including YOU. You want to raid? Fine, raid to your hearts content. If that's your hearts content then do it with a Raid only server or a Raid/Group server or a Raid/Group/Solo server. But for those that want to play on a non raid server or a Group/Solo server they should get their wish as well. If you are secure in you're personal choice of playstyle, why would you attempt to deny another person their choice of playstyle?
Spiritglow