Originally posted by savoge Nice Topic! It's not often I am moved to reply, I mostly keep my thoughts to myself Let me introduce myself, I am a normal run of the mill American guy (normal? how do I know if i'm normal? subject for another topic I guess) Married 10 years with two wonderful children. I am not what some would consider an educated man, hence the spelling and gramer mistakes sure to be found and pointed out. I love my life, very happy to be who I am. My family and I live in a small town in the heart of these great states of ours, yes that would be a red state. I grew up as an Air Force brat (meaning my entire child hood was spent moving from one Air Force base to another) and remember the clear threat of nuks. My early adult hood was spent roaming the world serving my country as a solider. Why the intro? I thought maybe it would be useful in showing what sector of the American population my thinking derives from. Let me say I respect many of the views expressed here, and some of the knowledge I have seen here is amazing. I am impressed. OK OK, on to my point The original post expressed what the world thinks of my country, more to the point the actions of our government. I thought maybe I would share with you what at least one American is feeling about America, I am not qualified to say I represent the thinking of the masses, but maybe I do, who knows. 1. I am sick and tired of "red vs blue" or "left vs right" or "lib vs con" I think this may be one of our biggest problems. I am sick of hearing both sides bash each other and throwing around terms such as "traitor" or "un-American" There are good ideas on both sides, come together and figure this crap out because me and my little high school education are counting on you. 2. Voting, I have lost all confidence in this. It seems I only have two choices (see above) It has became a choice between two lesser evils. 3. Money and politics, I'm afraid America now goes to the highest bidder. It scares me to death to continualy see "made in china" stickers. Or to hear that our government seeks adivice from those such as this bradly guy (owns a law firm that represents Saudi? Give me a break!) 4. I'm afraid that the majority of our leaders (not all) have thier own intrest at heart and not our country. You say vote for somebody else? Who? Their is a serious lack of quality leadership here in the states atm 5. I'm afraid we as Americans have become blind to what is going on in our own country. We are to busy in the here and now to see what may be coming down the road. The world around us, the world we can see and touch is all we are focused on, so focused that we honestly do not care what happends as long as we do not experience it ourselfs. And as my father used to say "its gonna bite ya in the a**" The scary part is I think I could go on, but I don't have time. I feel guilty because I know this is a government of the people, by the people. I feel like there is something I should be doing to ease my fears or help our country, like I'm looking to somebody else to solve my problems, but what do I do? Theirs alot of folks pointing out whats wrong, but not to many offering up solutions.
Originally posted by savoge 1. I am sick and tired of "red vs blue" or "left vs right" or "lib vs con" I think this may be one of our biggest problems. I am sick of hearing both sides bash each other and throwing around terms such as "traitor" or "un-American" There are good ideas on both sides, come together and figure this crap out because me and my little high school education are counting on you. 2. Voting, I have lost all confidence in this. It seems I only have two choices (see above) It has became a choice between two lesser evils. 3. Money and politics, I'm afraid America now goes to the highest bidder. It scares me to death to continualy see "made in china" stickers. Or to hear that our government seeks adivice from those such as this bradly guy (owns a law firm that represents Saudi? Give me a break!) 4. I'm afraid that the majority of our leaders (not all) have thier own intrest at heart and not our country. You say vote for somebody else? Who? Their is a serious lack of quality leadership here in the states atm 5. I'm afraid we as Americans have become blind to what is going on in our own country. We are to busy in the here and now to see what may be coming down the road. The world around us, the world we can see and touch is all we are focused on, so focused that we honestly do not care what happends as long as we do not experience it ourselfs. And as my father used to say "its gonna bite ya in the a**" The scary part is I think I could go on, but I don't have time. I feel guilty because I know this is a government of the people, by the people. I feel like there is something I should be doing to ease my fears or help our country, like I'm looking to somebody else to solve my problems, but what do I do? Theirs alot of folks pointing out whats wrong, but not to many offering up solutions.
Totally agree with you there. Especially with the second point. I keep thinking that we're supposed to vote for the right person, and then when you go to look at your candidate choices, they are virtually the same exact person only with different labels and maybe ONE thing that seems reasonable. And that ONE thing is what people now vote for becuase it makes that candidate "not as bad as that other guy." It's incredibly frustrating. That isn't to say our leaders are terrible, but after a while, everyone you get to vote for feels the same.
In your fifth point, I often wonder why that is. Sometimes I wonder if it's because we're so isolated in our own country and in our own cities, towns, suburbs. It's very much a concern for us. Yet that kind of behaviour is not unlike the typical young man/woman. The idea that we're invincible. That nothing could ever happen to us. And maybe it's because nothing HAS happened to us in a degree that our country isn't "safe." We've never had our country totally blown to bits by someone else or had someone invade and take control (in the scales that other countries around the world have experienced).
And I know someone within the first 6 pages of this thread also mentioned this idea that the US hasn't been repeatedly subjected to war. I think that point was very apt, whoever that was.
Originally posted by baff Britain and Japan are the two biggest foreign investers in America in that order. China is number three but has recently traded it's Dollar reserves for Euros.
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 08 Dec 2006 at 07:17:41 PM GMT is:
$8,658,593,727,214.13 The estimated population of the United States is 300,417,224 so each citizen's share of this debt is $28,821.90. The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $2.16 billion per day since September 29, 2006!
Above is a graphic to illustrate the timeline of U.S. national debt better, given as a proportion of GDP.
I certainly see China replacing U.S. domination in Asia anytime the U.S. withdraws. But not in any military confontational manner.
You see up there where that pantywast sonofabitchpeanutfarmer was in office? Did you know most U.S. Warships could not go to sea, for lack of spare parts. That most crews were only 60% maned? Now we go to Regan, You know why the debt went so high? REBUILDING U S military...and playing one hell of a poker game with the soviets....they had the US dead to rights....untill Regan bluffed the shit out of them. Bush #1 You know Kuwait wanted to pay for everything? Americans are not mercenaries...And you know we listened to the UN before...and left Sadam in power. Clinton comes along and starts cloesing bases, well yeah I can see this was needed. But he also put lots of peple out of work....and as for W Bush...well no americans hijacked an airbus and crashed it into any europe buildings.
Remember last time sombody sneaked attacked the USA, we nuked them....sombody ought to be counting their blessings.
Overall, most of the list seems to be 'how dare the US act in its own interests instead of ours, how dare people in the US hold religious beliefs we don't approve of, and how dare the US be as arrogant as we are'. I find these sorts of critiques to be rather weak overall,
Originally posted by MadAce -US refusing to sign decleration of Childrens Rights (together with Somalia and North-Korea), tho this is a hypocritical sham since many countries signed and did not follow it, it's still something that is found to be... disturbing.
Its funny that you try to say to imply that the US is bad for not signing a declaraction that Somalia and North Korea do, but also complain that the US didn't beg and plead for UN approval for the Iraqi war. Which is it - is the UN a good, sensible organization whose judgement we should trust, or not? Because the UN has places Somalia and North Korea on the Human Rights council before, so it appears that your precious UN feels they have a very good record on the topic.
As far as the so called "Declaration of Children's rights" goes, the US is not a socialist country. That document does not detail rights in the usual sense of the term, but states in several places that the government must provide (or compel someone to provide) certain things for the child. Not harming kids is one thing, but compelling various services through the state is a whole different one; I'd really rather not let the people who handled Katrina oh-so-well set up a new beurocracy for this stuff too.
I would note that Principle 10 is explicitly contrary to the principle of religious freedom that Americans find important. "He shall be brought up in a spirit of understanding, tolerance, friendship among peoples, peace and universal brotherhood, and in full consciousness that his energy and talents should be devoted to the service of his fellow men." While it sounds kind of nice, what it really means is that children can not be brought up to believe in pretty much any traditional religion; christianity, for example, is widely interpreted not to be 'tolerant' of certain behaviors. I know I personally don't agree that people should be brought up to devote their energy and talents to the service of his fellow man, clearly no one here practices it (you wouldn't be playing video games and chatting on forums, you'd be off in the service of other people).
Basically, the US is not a socialist country and isn't going to sign treaties that require us to become more of one. It would be good for Europeans to set aside their arrogance over the topic and understand that, instead of continuing to wail and gnash their teeth over the fact that the US tends not to sign treaties that compel it to act like one.
-arrogance, being a great nation is no excuse to dismiss the rest of mankind as being inferior.
So how exactly do you Europeans feel about the rest of mankind? I don't see Europeans going on about how they're inferior to the rest of the world either, every time I see a discussion Europeans talk about themselves as being better than everyone else, incluiding those ignorant savages in America, and clearly argue as if whatever Europe happens to be doing now is The Way.
In fact, Europeans are generally arrogant enough to consider themsevles 'the rest of the world' when talking about the US's attitude towards the rest of the world. I've seen many discussions where some European goes on about how the US doesn't consider the opinions of the rest of the world, then talks purely about the European opinions (maybe with Japan tacked in) that are being ignored.
Plus direct examples of this 'arrogance' seem to be rather lacking; the most common ones I've seen are things like 'the US didn't beg for our permission to do something' or 'the US acted in the US's interest instead of [other country's] interest'.
[list of things you find shocking] -Electing Bush. -Electing Bush for a second term.
See that hypocracy? If an American so much as comments on Austria electing or France near-electing someone with neo-nazi associations, there's a big chorus of 'ohh, you arrogant Americans, don't you dare even talk about our politics'. But should the US elect a president that doesn't meet with European approval, it's all 'how could you elect Bush?' Honestly, I was tempted to vote for Bush by precisely that attitude. I'm really not sure why anyone is suprised that Bush won a second term, Kerry was a really pathetic candidate who ran a horrible campaign.
-political counter manouvring, in the UN for example using a veto as a weapon.
I like this quote because it's so unintentionally honest; it's not political maneuvering, it's going against Europe's political maneuvers. Here's a hint: The US will continue to act in the US's interest for the foreseeable future, the US government is not elected to act in Europe's interest. It's like the silly whining that happened in the US over France, only far more widespread and over a far longer period of time. Say the US had put the war in Iraq up to a UN vote, do you think that no European nation like France would use their veto as a weapon?
-religious zealotism, denial or questioning of the evolution theory is unheard of here. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that the difference in view between the two sides of the Atlantic creates a minor form of conflict.
So people are disturbed that we both have freedom of religion and that some people use that freedom to (gasp) believe in something that you don't. I think denial of Evolution is stupid, but I'm all in favor of people being free to choose their own religious beliefs, even those that I consider stupid. I'd worry a lot more about religious bigotry like the anti-semitism that's so common in Europe.
-"Counter-terrorism" laws that limit the people's freedom.
That's really rich coming from someone who lives in a country that doesn't even allow jury trials. While I don't like a lot of our laws, the stuff I've read about various European judicial systems shows that they're all far worse, even excluding the fact that you can't get what I'd consider a real trial in Europe outside of England. For example, while the attitude that you have to carry your 'papers' simply to walk around is slowly gaining ground here, in most of Europe it's considered commonplace. US courts' attitude towards searches and what's needed to justify a warrant is still way ahead of everything I've read about European courts.
Originally posted by Herkmeck Well I have to put my two cents in. What I like about any country but USA.. 1. There is thousands of miles of water between us.Watch out. One day mankind might invent flight. 2. Most of the people from there are still there.Except a whole lot of your scientists. 3. Damn I am having a hard time here, trying to think of somthing to like about another country.Don't try to think. You might damage something. 4. I'll get back to this.... Damn. You just crushed my hopes. What I Dont like about other countries. 1. They hate the USA and all it stands for, untill the shit hits the fan, and then its "HELP US UNCLE SAM"They don't. The majority of mankind doesn't give a fuck about anything but what they will eat today and tomorrow. 2. They make real shitty cars...I mean they are junk, if they cant do 187,000 miles without a major problem I dont need them.I'm trying to be as sarcastic as you are here, but this point is pretty hard... 3. They work cheaply, and produce cheap goods, then cry when Americans wont buy them.The Chinese don't complain. They just produce more and at a cheaper price. You buy them. Guess where the clothes you're wearing were made? 4. They think they have good morales. But 90% of the worlds child porn comes from europe.Actually the majority comes from Asia. And we have better morales. No death penalty, mostly better aborion laws, some countries have gay mariage and euthanasia... 5. They think ploitics will save the day...remember December 7th, 1941.Remember any day between two wars? 6. They make real stupid tv shows and cartoons.I better not find you watching any manga. 7. They dress funny, Just kidding here folksActually they do. 8. ok that enough....God bless you. The thing is, Americans enjoy a better way of life, then most others. I work hard for my money, its mine. I like to enjoy the rewards I have as beeing american. If I was born in Germany, I would be living in some converted warehouse with 6 other family units. If I lived in England I would get taxed out the arse for an old t.v. If I lived in brazil I would be living in a hovel.I started this thread to tell about some see the US and I tried to put up a more positive view of the US. You saying that makes that preeeetty hard. If you want to, come to America, we welcome you with open arms and friendship, leave your politcal beliefs behind, bring your religion, and your new thoughts, we welcome them. For no money in the world I would want to live in the US. Why would I want to? Oh and another thing, The information given to Bush by the CIA came from the french...... It's the other way around. Back in 2003 the French prove there was no way in hell saddam had WoMD...
Originally posted by Pantastic
Overall, most of the list seems to be 'how dare the US act in its own interests instead of ours, how dare people in the US hold religious beliefs we don't approve of, and how dare the US be as arrogant as we are'. I find these sorts of critiques to be rather weak overall,In a few thread and on a few occasions I have said if the US didn't act out of self-interest it would be the most foolish country in the world. Originally posted by MadAce -US refusing to sign decleration of Childrens Rights (together with Somalia and North-Korea), tho this is a hypocritical sham since many countries signed and did not follow it, it's still something that is found to be... disturbing.
Its funny that you try to say to imply that the US is bad for not signing a declaraction that Somalia and North Korea do, but also complain that the US didn't beg and plead for UN approval for the Iraqi war. Which is it - is the UN a good, sensible organization whose judgement we should trust, or not? Because the UN has places Somalia and North Korea on the Human Rights council before, so it appears that your precious UN feels they have a very good record on the topic.
As far as the so called "Declaration of Children's rights" goes, the US is not a socialist country. That document does not detail rights in the usual sense of the term, but states in several places that the government must provide (or compel someone to provide) certain things for the child. Not harming kids is one thing, but compelling various services through the state is a whole different one; I'd really rather not let the people who handled Katrina oh-so-well set up a new beurocracy for this stuff too.
I would note that Principle 10 is explicitly contrary to the principle of religious freedom that Americans find important. "He shall be brought up in a spirit of understanding, tolerance, friendship among peoples, peace and universal brotherhood, and in full consciousness that his energy and talents should be devoted to the service of his fellow men." While it sounds kind of nice, what it really means is that children can not be brought up to believe in pretty much any traditional religion; christianity, for example, is widely interpreted not to be 'tolerant' of certain behaviors. I know I personally don't agree that people should be brought up to devote their energy and talents to the service of his fellow man, clearly no one here practices it (you wouldn't be playing video games and chatting on forums, you'd be off in the service of other people).
Basically, the US is not a socialist country and isn't going to sign treaties that require us to become more of one. It would be good for Europeans to set aside their arrogance over the topic and understand that, instead of continuing to wail and gnash their teeth over the fact that the US tends not to sign treaties that compel it to act like one.
I never said the US was bad. I don't belive in figments like "good" and "evil". As you grow up you'll notice the world is a bit more complicated than that. I also said signing the treaty was hypocritical... It would be good for the US to sign treaties because they're good for their citizens and not because they're socialist or not.
-arrogance, being a great nation is no excuse to dismiss the rest of mankind as being inferior.
So how exactly do you Europeans feel about the rest of mankind? I don't see Europeans going on about how they're inferior to the rest of the world either, every time I see a discussion Europeans talk about themselves as being better than everyone else, incluiding those ignorant savages in America, and clearly argue as if whatever Europe happens to be doing now is The Way.
In fact, Europeans are generally arrogant enough to consider themsevles 'the rest of the world' when talking about the US's attitude towards the rest of the world. I've seen many discussions where some European goes on about how the US doesn't consider the opinions of the rest of the world, then talks purely about the European opinions (maybe with Japan tacked in) that are being ignored.
Plus direct examples of this 'arrogance' seem to be rather lacking; the most common ones I've seen are things like 'the US didn't beg for our permission to do something' or 'the US acted in the US's interest instead of [other country's] interest'.
You won't make yourself less arrogant by proving others are more or equally arrogant.
Examples of the arrogance:
-Count on how many occasions an American on these forums has said the rest of the world was jealous.
[list of things you find shocking] -Electing Bush. -Electing Bush for a second term.
See that hypocracy? If an American so much as comments on Austria electing or France near-electing someone with neo-nazi associations, there's a big chorus of 'ohh, you arrogant Americans, don't you dare even talk about our politics'. But should the US elect a president that doesn't meet with European approval, it's all 'how could you elect Bush?' Honestly, I was tempted to vote for Bush by precisely that attitude. I'm really not sure why anyone is suprised that Bush won a second term, Kerry was a really pathetic candidate who ran a horrible campaign.
Personally I don't believe a vote for a president still makes a difference in the US. But I was voicing the general view of many of the people in this part of the world.
As far as I know the US invades countries if their politics aren't satisfactory, or puts them on the Axis of evil list.
-political counter manouvring, in the UN for example using a veto as a weapon.
I like this quote because it's so unintentionally honest; it's not political maneuvering, it's going against Europe's political maneuvers. Here's a hint: The US will continue to act in the US's interest for the foreseeable future, the US government is not elected to act in Europe's interest. It's like the silly whining that happened in the US over France, only far more widespread and over a far longer period of time. Say the US had put the war in Iraq up to a UN vote, do you think that no European nation like France would use their veto as a weapon?
There you're right. I too believe a country should do anything for its own best interests. Tho some in the public opinion may think a country should do stuff for the better of mankind from time to time. That's why I included that in the list.
-religious zealotism, denial or questioning of the evolution theory is unheard of here. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that the difference in view between the two sides of the Atlantic creates a minor form of conflict.
So people are disturbed that we both have freedom of religion and that some people use that freedom to (gasp) believe in something that you don't. I think denial of Evolution is stupid, but I'm all in favor of people being free to choose their own religious beliefs, even those that I consider stupid. I'd worry a lot more about religious bigotry like the anti-semitism that's so common in Europe.
I don't consider having "In God we trust" on your coins and notes having freedom of religion. But the Netherlands make the same mistake. But they don't have a head of state refering to God in a whole lot of speeches.-"Counter-terrorism" laws that limit the people's freedom.That's really rich coming from someone who lives in a country that doesn't even allow jury trials. While I don't like a lot of our laws, the stuff I've read about various European judicial systems shows that they're all far worse, even excluding the fact that you can't get what I'd consider a real trial in Europe outside of England. For example, while the attitude that you have to carry your 'papers' simply to walk around is slowly gaining ground here, in most of Europe it's considered commonplace. US courts' attitude towards searches and what's needed to justify a warrant is still way ahead of everything I've read about European courts.
We have jury trials in my country. And our judiciary systems are almsot equal to yours. And it's in fact a minority of countries in Europe that has ID's.
Maybe you should listen to these two guys:
Originally posted by Meliania Originally posted by savoge 1. I am sick and tired of "red vs blue" or "left vs right" or "lib vs con" I think this may be one of our biggest problems. I am sick of hearing both sides bash each other and throwing around terms such as "traitor" or "un-American" There are good ideas on both sides, come together and figure this crap out because me and my little high school education are counting on you. 2. Voting, I have lost all confidence in this. It seems I only have two choices (see above) It has became a choice between two lesser evils. 3. Money and politics, I'm afraid America now goes to the highest bidder. It scares me to death to continualy see "made in china" stickers. Or to hear that our government seeks adivice from those such as this bradly guy (owns a law firm that represents Saudi? Give me a break!) 4. I'm afraid that the majority of our leaders (not all) have thier own intrest at heart and not our country. You say vote for somebody else? Who? Their is a serious lack of quality leadership here in the states atm 5. I'm afraid we as Americans have become blind to what is going on in our own country. We are to busy in the here and now to see what may be coming down the road. The world around us, the world we can see and touch is all we are focused on, so focused that we honestly do not care what happends as long as we do not experience it ourselfs. And as my father used to say "its gonna bite ya in the a**" The scary part is I think I could go on, but I don't have time. I feel guilty because I know this is a government of the people, by the people. I feel like there is something I should be doing to ease my fears or help our country, like I'm looking to somebody else to solve my problems, but what do I do? Theirs alot of folks pointing out whats wrong, but not to many offering up solutions. Totally agree with you there. Especially with the second point. I keep thinking that we're supposed to vote for the right person, and then when you go to look at your candidate choices, they are virtually the same exact person only with different labels and maybe ONE thing that seems reasonable. And that ONE thing is what people now vote for becuase it makes that candidate "not as bad as that other guy." It's incredibly frustrating. That isn't to say our leaders are terrible, but after a while, everyone you get to vote for feels the same. In your fifth point, I often wonder why that is. Sometimes I wonder if it's because we're so isolated in our own country and in our own cities, towns, suburbs. It's very much a concern for us. Yet that kind of behaviour is not unlike the typical young man/woman. The idea that we're invincible. That nothing could ever happen to us. And maybe it's because nothing HAS happened to us in a degree that our country isn't "safe." We've never had our country totally blown to bits by someone else or had someone invade and take control (in the scales that other countries around the world have experienced). And I know someone within the first 6 pages of this thread also mentioned this idea that the US hasn't been repeatedly subjected to war. I think that point was very apt, whoever that was.
Originally posted by Zuba i know alot of history. and the usa was conquered by the british in 1700 now i know this, and the usa beat us back with french help. brtian was lucky to have canada as a ally. at the same time australia was formed out of prisoners from britain, there was also a war raging between spain and england, while the same time a peace treaty between scotland and england was formed. meanwhile the brits were conquering india as well, and again the same time a religous man created english from latin.
meanwhile china was having problems of it own fighting japan for along time, not only fighting japan but they were also trying to defeat the huns and other natives, while at the same time russia discovered china while that was going on parts of africa were being liberated by the brits. at the same time brazil resolved the conflicts with the other clans. and soo soo many more
i know alot about us europeans i know we are crap at certain things, the usa views us as weird because we dont act in your way. no wonder you guys dropped an A Bomb on japan vice versa japan a attack on pearl harbour.
This has to be the funniest post made in the off-topic forum. Ever. Simply for the reason that this guy isn't a troll, but actually seems to believe this stuff. What school did you go to my poor, misguided child?
It's NOT the american people but our Government who is at fault, instead of saying American People you should replace it with the word Government.
As far as the so called President, I didnt vote for him and not 1 person I know had voted for him and I know quite a few people. My guess is that Bush cheated his way into presidency because there is no way in hell that more Americans liked him better VS someone else. ( I wouldnt consider him PEOPLE but rather 1 PERSON)
I have my opinions about other Countries but because I was raised to respect other peoples feelings ect. I dont ever think its proper to discuss them over public Forums ect.
If I had my way It would be different but I do not run the Government.
I might add there are good things and bad things about Your Country, My Country and Every Other Country out there.
Originally posted by JasmineRose P.S It's NOT the american people but our Government who is at fault, instead of saying American People you should replace it with the word Government. As far as the so called President, I didnt vote for him and not 1 person I know had voted for him and I know quite a few people. My guess is that Bush cheated his way into presidency because there is no way in hell that more Americans liked him better VS someone else. ( I wouldnt consider him PEOPLE but rather 1 PERSON) I have my opinions about other Countries but because I was raised to respect other peoples feelings ect. I dont ever think its proper to discuss them over public Forums ect. If I had my way It would be different but I do not run the Government.
Agreed one 100%. Didn't mean to offen any US citizens.
Originally posted by JasmineRose P.S It's NOT the american people but our Government who is at fault, instead of saying American People you should replace it with the word Government. As far as the so called President, I didnt vote for him and not 1 person I know had voted for him and I know quite a few people. My guess is that Bush cheated his way into presidency because there is no way in hell that more Americans liked him better VS someone else. ( I wouldnt consider him PEOPLE but rather 1 PERSON) I have my opinions about other Countries but because I was raised to respect other peoples feelings ect. I dont ever think its proper to discuss them over public Forums ect. If I had my way It would be different but I do not run the Government. I might add there are good things and bad things about Your Country, My Country and Every Other Country out there.
Nonsense. The majority of the electorate votes, because it believes in your system of government.Vote for party A, vote for party B. A vote is a vote for government. I certainly see no signs of any deep felt revolution movement in the U.S.
It's your government. 100% consituted from U.S. citizens.
The majority of that electorate voted for your current President, and if you think that was some kind of an accident, remember that they did it twice.
Leaders lead. In the end if no one wants to follow, they won't. "I vas just following ze orders!" has never been a valid argument in my book. Your government is a product of your country. You may not approve of each and every decision it ever makes but you are broadly complicit in it's actions.
I understand the political divide in America, but from an outsiders perspective it's not a very big one. That said Bush is without doubt the most universally hated man on the planet. Probably since Hitler.
I have no great love for Saudi Arabia, I say if their government has terrorist training camps and cells that are plotting terrorist attacks on US soil, then they deserve to be dealt with too. But different things will work with different countries and we cant take on every terrorist-loving country in the world at once.
Indeed. IRA, swalled by Sin Fein and ventured into politics. ETA same. Algerian terrorism, almost non-existant. CCC, destroyed. Red Brigades, accepted into politics and militant factions destroyed. See where I'm getting at? "They" doesn't exist. You can split a terrorist organisation wide open if you challenge their ideological grounds. If you listen and if you hunt the militant factions relentlessly. You are using a lot of double speak here. Did Europeans "destroy" CCC's, hunt them down relentlessly, and challenge their ideological grounds or did they give into their demands in peace talks? As far as what will work with islamo-terrorists, I can only point to Israel's recent relinquishment of the Gaza strip. What was the result?? Getting their soldiers kidnapped and their country bombed by Hamas. These groups dont respond to peace talks and they dont honor peace treaties. Western Democracies are just "paper tigers" to them, weak. Look at Spain, England and (to some extent) even the U.S. Spain and England both have been attacked by terrorists post 9/11 and they immedietly put up a white flag. US gets frustrated after 4 years and a small (by comparsion) casualty count and now we have Nancy Pelosi as speaker of the house. Not by providing more raison d'
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
These groups dont respond to peace talks and they dont honor peace treaties. Western Democracies are just "paper tigers" to them, weak. Look at Spain, England and (to some extent) even the U.S. Spain and Englandboth have been attacked by terrorists post 9/11 and they immedietly put up a white flag. US gets frustrated after 4 years and a small (by comparsion) casualty count and now we have Nancy Pelosi as speaker of the house.
When did we run up a white flag exactly? They didn't tell us about that bit.
The people who attacked us were British. How do you surrender to yourselves anyway? Can an exploded suicide bomber accept your surrender?
According to this view, the difference in ideology between Saddam and al-Qaeda made cooperation in any terrorist attacks very unlikely (how do you explain the above info?).
Easy. It's total garbage of similar ilk to saying they faked the Apollo moon landings.
Put out by people with a vested intrest in the invasion who had spent the past 3 years singing about how Saddam was responsable for 9/11 with zero intelligence to back up the claim. So they made stuff up, and clutched at the straws of any old hearsay that might be able to be miscontstrued as backing up their wild claims. In short, it's propaganda. Lies even.
A load of idiot talk said by people who when caught obviously lying, prefer to compund lie their way out of it than lose face.
Saddam and Osama were enemies. Osama is a Saudi, and a religious fundamentalist. Saddam is an Iraqi and an anti Saudi secularist.
Al Quaeda only arrived in Iraq after the Invasion. Saddam's regime was pretty hot on wiping out militant opposition to his regime. In fact Zarqawi's organisation adopted the Al Quaeda name as a recruiting tool after his successes in Iraq vs Americans brought him to Bin ladens Attention. Strictly speaking, Al Quaeda (as in the people involved in 9/11) have never been heard of in Iraq, although they did bid for the Saudi contract to get Saddam out of Kuwait.
Saddam loyal insurgents and religious extremists in Iraq have been trying to kill each other right from the beginning. They are not in any way allied. You might even go as far as to say they are currently engaged in a war with eachother for that country.
Originally posted by JasmineRose P.S It's NOT the american people but our Government who is at fault, instead of saying American People you should replace it with the word Government. As far as the so called President, I didnt vote for him and not 1 person I know had voted for him and I know quite a few people. My guess is that Bush cheated his way into presidency because there is no way in hell that more Americans liked him better VS someone else. ( I wouldnt consider him PEOPLE but rather 1 PERSON) I have my opinions about other Countries but because I was raised to respect other peoples feelings ect. I dont ever think its proper to discuss them over public Forums ect. If I had my way It would be different but I do not run the Government.
Agreed one 100%. Didn't mean to offen any US citizens.
I'm offended, send a waffle Fedex and all will be forgiven.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Originally posted by Sassymolassy Then why attack Iraq and not Saudi-Arabia?I have no great love for Saudi Arabia, I say if their government has terrorist training camps and cells that are plotting terrorist attacks on US soil, then they deserve to be dealt with too. But different things will work with different countries and we cant take on every terrorist-loving country in the world at once. The majority of Al-Qaeda actions is funded by Saudi-Arabia. Osama Bin Laden gets money from his family. Indeed. IRA, swalled by Sin Fein and ventured into politics. ETA same. Algerian terrorism, almost non-existant. CCC, destroyed. Red Brigades, accepted into politics and militant factions destroyed. See where I'm getting at? "They" doesn't exist. You can split a terrorist organisation wide open if you challenge their ideological grounds. If you listen and if you hunt the militant factions relentlessly. You are using a lot of double speak here. Did Europeans "destroy" CCC's, hunt them down relentlessly, and challenge their ideological grounds or did they give into their demands in peace talks? As far as what will work with islamo-terrorists, I can only point to Israel's recent relinquishment of the Gaza strip. What was the result?? Getting their soldiers kidnapped and their country bombed by Hamas. These groups dont respond to peace talks and they dont honor peace treaties. Western Democracies are just "paper tigers" to them, weak. Look at Spain, England and (to some extent) even the U.S. Spain and England both have been attacked by terrorists post 9/11 and they immedietly put up a white flag. US gets frustrated after 4 years and a small (by comparsion) casualty count and now we have Nancy Pelosi as speaker of the house. Well, CCC was completely destroyed. All members were either killed or arrested. Other groups had their ideologies attacked by listening to their valid points. Thus destroying the masses that suport them. Militant factions were hunted down. Non militant factions were integrated in the political process. Spain and the UK (and many, many other European countries) have been hunting terrorists relentlessly on a daily basis. They always have. But they also realize that you won't stop terrorism by bombing a country. You will only create more terrorists. Imagine in stead of hunting people down and leveling home and putting up road blockades you start be developing palestine, aiding them in their venture to become a country... You would actually have the Palestinians help out the IDF in finding rogue factions. Just like the IRA helped to bring in RIRA members. BTW, I remember 2 French journalists being kidnapped in Iraq. They were released after negotiations. Not by providing more raison d'
Originally posted by ACE777 Originally posted by Zuba i know alot of history. and the usa was conquered by the british in 1700 now i know this, and the usa beat us back with french help. brtian was lucky to have canada as a ally. at the same time australia was formed out of prisoners from britain, there was also a war raging between spain and england, while the same time a peace treaty between scotland and england was formed. meanwhile the brits were conquering india as well, and again the same time a religous man created english from latin.
meanwhile china was having problems of it own fighting japan for along time, not only fighting japan but they were also trying to defeat the huns and other natives, while at the same time russia discovered china while that was going on parts of africa were being liberated by the brits. at the same time brazil resolved the conflicts with the other clans. and soo soo many more
i know alot about us europeans i know we are crap at certain things, the usa views us as weird because we dont act in your way. no wonder you guys dropped an A Bomb on japan vice versa japan a attack on pearl harbour.
This has to be the funniest post made in the off-topic forum. Ever. Simply for the reason that this guy isn't a troll, but actually seems to believe this stuff. What school did you go to my poor, misguided child?
unlike you i did learn stuff as you seem to inebt, dont you watch tv on history from every channel in the world? if not then what have i got to say then your an idoit and go learn that. thanks
Originally posted by MadAce Fiction can be handy to broaden your perspective.
I absolutely agree and utilize that tool frequently. But in this case, the imagination has wandered too far. Facts are nothing but building blocks to some people to construct their own versions of history.
No thanks, I just did a quick read thru and if you're too lazy to summarize (in your own words) then Im too lazy to refute. about half of what you posted had major repititions. And some of it wasn't even supporting you case.
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
Originally posted by MadAce Originally posted by mehhem Ever thought what we Americans think about your country? You're all lazy!
edit: my post is directed at the OP, i'm not reading all 5 pages...
It's 15 pages. And no, as long as it doesn't affect me or my country I don't care. Besides, it'll be 300 million different views anyways. I must have my forum settings different. Says 5 for me...
Comments
You make it look too grim. All hope is not lost.
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Totally agree with you there. Especially with the second point. I keep thinking that we're supposed to vote for the right person, and then when you go to look at your candidate choices, they are virtually the same exact person only with different labels and maybe ONE thing that seems reasonable. And that ONE thing is what people now vote for becuase it makes that candidate "not as bad as that other guy." It's incredibly frustrating. That isn't to say our leaders are terrible, but after a while, everyone you get to vote for feels the same.
In your fifth point, I often wonder why that is. Sometimes I wonder if it's because we're so isolated in our own country and in our own cities, towns, suburbs. It's very much a concern for us. Yet that kind of behaviour is not unlike the typical young man/woman. The idea that we're invincible. That nothing could ever happen to us. And maybe it's because nothing HAS happened to us in a degree that our country isn't "safe." We've never had our country totally blown to bits by someone else or had someone invade and take control (in the scales that other countries around the world have experienced).
And I know someone within the first 6 pages of this thread also mentioned this idea that the US hasn't been repeatedly subjected to war. I think that point was very apt, whoever that was.
You see up there where that pantywast sonofabitchpeanutfarmer was in office? Did you know most U.S. Warships could not go to sea, for lack of spare parts. That most crews were only 60% maned? Now we go to Regan, You know why the debt went so high? REBUILDING U S military...and playing one hell of a poker game with the soviets....they had the US dead to rights....untill Regan bluffed the shit out of them. Bush #1 You know Kuwait wanted to pay for everything? Americans are not mercenaries...And you know we listened to the UN before...and left Sadam in power. Clinton comes along and starts cloesing bases, well yeah I can see this was needed. But he also put lots of peple out of work....and as for W Bush...well no americans hijacked an airbus and crashed it into any europe buildings.
Remember last time sombody sneaked attacked the USA, we nuked them....sombody ought to be counting their blessings.
Overall, most of the list seems to be 'how dare the US act in its own interests instead of ours, how dare people in the US hold religious beliefs we don't approve of, and how dare the US be as arrogant as we are'. I find these sorts of critiques to be rather weak overall,
Its funny that you try to say to imply that the US is bad for not signing a declaraction that Somalia and North Korea do, but also complain that the US didn't beg and plead for UN approval for the Iraqi war. Which is it - is the UN a good, sensible organization whose judgement we should trust, or not? Because the UN has places Somalia and North Korea on the Human Rights council before, so it appears that your precious UN feels they have a very good record on the topic.
As far as the so called "Declaration of Children's rights" goes, the US is not a socialist country. That document does not detail rights in the usual sense of the term, but states in several places that the government must provide (or compel someone to provide) certain things for the child. Not harming kids is one thing, but compelling various services through the state is a whole different one; I'd really rather not let the people who handled Katrina oh-so-well set up a new beurocracy for this stuff too.
I would note that Principle 10 is explicitly contrary to the principle of religious freedom that Americans find important. "He shall be brought up in a spirit of understanding, tolerance, friendship among peoples, peace and universal brotherhood, and in full consciousness that his energy and talents should be devoted to the service of his fellow men." While it sounds kind of nice, what it really means is that children can not be brought up to believe in pretty much any traditional religion; christianity, for example, is widely interpreted not to be 'tolerant' of certain behaviors. I know I personally don't agree that people should be brought up to devote their energy and talents to the service of his fellow man, clearly no one here practices it (you wouldn't be playing video games and chatting on forums, you'd be off in the service of other people).
Basically, the US is not a socialist country and isn't going to sign treaties that require us to become more of one. It would be good for Europeans to set aside their arrogance over the topic and understand that, instead of continuing to wail and gnash their teeth over the fact that the US tends not to sign treaties that compel it to act like one.
So how exactly do you Europeans feel about the rest of mankind? I don't see Europeans going on about how they're inferior to the rest of the world either, every time I see a discussion Europeans talk about themselves as being better than everyone else, incluiding those ignorant savages in America, and clearly argue as if whatever Europe happens to be doing now is The Way.
In fact, Europeans are generally arrogant enough to consider themsevles 'the rest of the world' when talking about the US's attitude towards the rest of the world. I've seen many discussions where some European goes on about how the US doesn't consider the opinions of the rest of the world, then talks purely about the European opinions (maybe with Japan tacked in) that are being ignored.
Plus direct examples of this 'arrogance' seem to be rather lacking; the most common ones I've seen are things like 'the US didn't beg for our permission to do something' or 'the US acted in the US's interest instead of [other country's] interest'.
See that hypocracy? If an American so much as comments on Austria electing or France near-electing someone with neo-nazi associations, there's a big chorus of 'ohh, you arrogant Americans, don't you dare even talk about our politics'. But should the US elect a president that doesn't meet with European approval, it's all 'how could you elect Bush?' Honestly, I was tempted to vote for Bush by precisely that attitude. I'm really not sure why anyone is suprised that Bush won a second term, Kerry was a really pathetic candidate who ran a horrible campaign.
I like this quote because it's so unintentionally honest; it's not political maneuvering, it's going against Europe's political maneuvers. Here's a hint: The US will continue to act in the US's interest for the foreseeable future, the US government is not elected to act in Europe's interest. It's like the silly whining that happened in the US over France, only far more widespread and over a far longer period of time. Say the US had put the war in Iraq up to a UN vote, do you think that no European nation like France would use their veto as a weapon?
So people are disturbed that we both have freedom of religion and that some people use that freedom to (gasp) believe in something that you don't. I think denial of Evolution is stupid, but I'm all in favor of people being free to choose their own religious beliefs, even those that I consider stupid. I'd worry a lot more about religious bigotry like the anti-semitism that's so common in Europe.
That's really rich coming from someone who lives in a country that doesn't even allow jury trials. While I don't like a lot of our laws, the stuff I've read about various European judicial systems shows that they're all far worse, even excluding the fact that you can't get what I'd consider a real trial in Europe outside of England. For example, while the attitude that you have to carry your 'papers' simply to walk around is slowly gaining ground here, in most of Europe it's considered commonplace. US courts' attitude towards searches and what's needed to justify a warrant is still way ahead of everything I've read about European courts.
Its funny that you try to
say to imply that the US is bad for not signing a declaraction that
Somalia and North Korea do, but also complain that the US didn't beg
and plead for UN approval for the Iraqi war. Which is it - is the UN a
good, sensible organization whose judgement we should trust, or not?
Because the UN has places Somalia and North Korea on the Human Rights
council before, so it appears that your precious UN feels they have a
very good record on the topic.
As far as the so called
"Declaration of Children's rights" goes, the US is not a socialist
country. That document does not detail rights in the usual sense of the
term, but states in several places that the government must provide (or
compel someone to provide) certain things for the child. Not harming
kids is one thing, but compelling various services through the state is
a whole different one; I'd really rather not let the people who handled
Katrina oh-so-well set up a new beurocracy for this stuff too.
I
would note that Principle 10 is explicitly contrary to the principle of
religious freedom that Americans find important. "He shall be brought
up in a spirit of understanding, tolerance, friendship among peoples,
peace and universal brotherhood, and in full consciousness that his
energy and talents should be devoted to the service of his fellow men."
While it sounds kind of nice, what it really means is that children can
not be brought up to believe in pretty much any traditional religion;
christianity, for example, is widely interpreted not to be 'tolerant'
of certain behaviors. I know I personally don't agree that people
should be brought up to devote their energy and talents to the service
of his fellow man, clearly no one here practices it (you wouldn't be
playing video games and chatting on forums, you'd be off in the service
of other people).
Basically, the US is not a socialist country
I never said the US was bad. I don't belive in figments like "good" and "evil". As you grow up you'll notice the world is a bit more complicated than that. I also said signing the treaty was hypocritical...and isn't going to sign treaties that require us to become more of one.
It would be good for Europeans to set aside their arrogance over the
topic and understand that, instead of continuing to wail and gnash
their teeth over the fact that the US tends not to sign treaties that
compel it to act like one.
It would be good for the US to sign treaties because they're good for their citizens and not because they're socialist or not.
So
how exactly do you Europeans feel about the rest of mankind? I don't
see Europeans going on about how they're inferior to the rest of the
world either, every time I see a discussion Europeans talk about
themselves as being better than everyone else, incluiding those
ignorant savages in America, and clearly argue as if whatever Europe
happens to be doing now is The Way.
In fact, Europeans are
generally arrogant enough to consider themsevles 'the rest of the
world' when talking about the US's attitude towards the rest of the
world. I've seen many discussions where some European goes on about how
the US doesn't consider the opinions of the rest of the world, then
talks purely about the European opinions (maybe with Japan tacked in)
that are being ignored.
Plus direct examples of this
'arrogance' seem to be rather lacking; the most common ones I've seen
are things like 'the US didn't beg for our permission to do something'
or 'the US acted in the US's interest instead of [other country's]
interest'.
You won't make yourself less arrogant by proving others are more or equally arrogant.
Examples of the arrogance:
-Count on how many occasions an American on these forums has said the rest of the world was jealous.
See
that hypocracy? If an American so much as comments on Austria electing
or France near-electing someone with neo-nazi associations, there's a
big chorus of 'ohh, you arrogant Americans, don't you dare even talk
about our politics'. But should the US elect a president that doesn't
meet with European approval, it's all 'how could you elect Bush?'
Honestly, I was tempted to vote for Bush by precisely that attitude.
I'm really not sure why anyone is suprised that Bush won a second term,
Kerry was a really pathetic candidate who ran a horrible campaign.
Personally I don't believe a vote for a president still makes a difference in the US. But I was voicing the general view of many of the people in this part of the world.
As far as I know the US invades countries if their politics aren't satisfactory, or puts them on the Axis of evil list.
I
There you're right. I too believe a country should do anything for its own best interests. Tho some in the public opinion may think a country should do stuff for the better of mankind from time to time. That's why I included that in the list.like this quote because it's so unintentionally honest; it's not
political maneuvering, it's going against Europe's political maneuvers.
Here's a hint: The US will continue to act in the US's interest for the
foreseeable future, the US government is not elected to act in Europe's
interest. It's like the silly whining that happened in the US over
France, only far more widespread and over a far longer period of time.
Say the US had put the war in Iraq up to a UN vote, do you think that
no European nation like France would use their veto as a weapon?
So people are disturbed that we
I don't consider having "In God we trust" on your coins and notesboth have freedom of religion and that some people use that freedom to
(gasp) believe in something that you don't. I think denial of Evolution
is stupid, but I'm all in favor of people being free to choose their
own religious beliefs, even those that I consider stupid. I'd worry a
lot more about religious bigotry like the anti-semitism that's so
common in Europe.
having freedom of religion. But the Netherlands make the same mistake.
But they don't have a head of state refering to God in a whole lot of
speeches.-"Counter-terrorism" laws that limit the people's freedom.That's
really rich coming from someone who lives in a country that doesn't
even allow jury trials. While I don't like a lot of our laws, the stuff
I've read about various European judicial systems shows that they're
all far worse, even excluding the fact that you can't get what I'd
consider a real trial in Europe outside of England. For example, while
the attitude that you have to carry your 'papers' simply to walk around
is slowly gaining ground here, in most of Europe it's considered
commonplace. US courts' attitude towards searches and what's needed to
justify a warrant is still way ahead of everything I've read about
European courts.
We have jury trials in my country. And our judiciary systems are almsot equal to yours. And it's in fact a minority of countries in Europe that has ID's.
Maybe you should listen to these two guys:
Originally posted by Meliania
Originally posted by savoge
1.
I am sick and tired of "red vs blue" or "left vs right" or "lib vs con"
I think this may be one of our biggest problems. I am sick of hearing
both sides bash each other and throwing around terms such as "traitor"
or "un-American" There are good ideas on both sides, come together and
figure this crap out because me and my little high school education
are counting on you. 2. Voting, I have lost all confidence in
this. It seems I only have two choices (see above) It has became a
choice between two lesser evils. 3. Money and politics, I'm
afraid America now goes to the highest bidder. It scares me to death to
continualy see "made in china" stickers. Or to hear that our government
seeks adivice from those such as this bradly guy (owns a law firm that
represents Saudi? Give me a break!) 4. I'm afraid that the
majority of our leaders (not all) have thier own intrest at heart and
not our country. You say vote for somebody else? Who? Their is a
serious lack of quality leadership here in the states atm 5.
I'm afraid we as Americans have become blind to what is going on in our
own country. We are to busy in the here and now to see what may be
coming down the road. The world around us, the world we can see and
touch is all we are focused on, so focused that we honestly do not care
what happends as long as we do not experience it ourselfs. And as my
father used to say "its gonna bite ya in the a**" The scary
part is I think I could go on, but I don't have time. I feel guilty
because I know this is a government of the people, by the people. I
feel like there is something I should be doing to ease my fears or help
our country, like I'm looking to somebody else to solve my problems,
but what do I do? Theirs alot of folks pointing out whats wrong, but
not to many offering up solutions. Totally
agree with you there. Especially with the second point. I keep
thinking that we're supposed to vote for the right person, and then
when you go to look at your candidate choices, they are virtually the
same exact person only with different labels and maybe ONE thing that
seems reasonable. And that ONE thing is what people now vote for
becuase it makes that candidate "not as bad as that other guy." It's
incredibly frustrating. That isn't to say our leaders are terrible,
but after a while, everyone you get to vote for feels the same. In
your fifth point, I often wonder why that is. Sometimes I wonder if
it's because we're so isolated in our own country and in our own
cities, towns, suburbs. It's very much a concern for us. Yet that
kind of behaviour is not unlike the typical young man/woman. The idea
that we're invincible. That nothing could ever happen to us. And
maybe it's because nothing HAS happened to us in a degree that our
country isn't "safe." We've never had our country totally blown to
bits by someone else or had someone invade and take control (in the
scales that other countries around the world have experienced). And
I know someone within the first 6 pages of this thread also mentioned
this idea that the US hasn't been repeatedly subjected to war. I think
that point was very apt, whoever that was.
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This has to be the funniest post made in the off-topic forum. Ever. Simply for the reason that this guy isn't a troll, but actually seems to believe this stuff. What school did you go to my poor, misguided child?
"Kaneda! What...do you see?"
Probably the school called "OxygenShortageAtBirth".
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P.S
It's NOT the american people but our Government who is at fault, instead of saying American People you should replace it with the word Government.
As far as the so called President, I didnt vote for him and not 1 person I know had voted for him and I know quite a few people. My guess is that Bush cheated his way into presidency because there is no way in hell that more Americans liked him better VS someone else. ( I wouldnt consider him PEOPLE but rather 1 PERSON)
I have my opinions about other Countries but because I was raised to respect other peoples feelings ect. I dont ever think its proper to discuss them over public Forums ect.
If I had my way It would be different but I do not run the Government.
I might add there are good things and bad things about Your Country, My Country and Every Other Country out there.
Agreed one 100%. Didn't mean to offen any US citizens.
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Nonsense. The majority of the electorate votes, because it believes in your system of government.Vote for party A, vote for party B. A vote is a vote for government. I certainly see no signs of any deep felt revolution movement in the U.S.
It's your government. 100% consituted from U.S. citizens.
The majority of that electorate voted for your current President, and if you think that was some kind of an accident, remember that they did it twice.
Leaders lead. In the end if no one wants to follow, they won't. "I vas just following ze orders!" has never been a valid argument in my book. Your government is a product of your country. You may not approve of each and every decision it ever makes but you are broadly complicit in it's actions.
I understand the political divide in America, but from an outsiders perspective it's not a very big one. That said Bush is without doubt the most universally hated man on the planet. Probably since Hitler.
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
When did we run up a white flag exactly? They didn't tell us about that bit.
The people who attacked us were British. How do you surrender to yourselves anyway? Can an exploded suicide bomber accept your surrender?
According to this view, the difference in ideology between Saddam and al-Qaeda made cooperation in any terrorist attacks very unlikely (how do you explain the above info?).
Easy. It's total garbage of similar ilk to saying they faked the Apollo moon landings.
Put out by people with a vested intrest in the invasion who had spent the past 3 years singing about how Saddam was responsable for 9/11 with zero intelligence to back up the claim. So they made stuff up, and clutched at the straws of any old hearsay that might be able to be miscontstrued as backing up their wild claims. In short, it's propaganda. Lies even.
A load of idiot talk said by people who when caught obviously lying, prefer to compund lie their way out of it than lose face.
Saddam and Osama were enemies. Osama is a Saudi, and a religious fundamentalist. Saddam is an Iraqi and an anti Saudi secularist.
Al Quaeda only arrived in Iraq after the Invasion. Saddam's regime was pretty hot on wiping out militant opposition to his regime. In fact Zarqawi's organisation adopted the Al Quaeda name as a recruiting tool after his successes in Iraq vs Americans brought him to Bin ladens Attention. Strictly speaking, Al Quaeda (as in the people involved in 9/11) have never been heard of in Iraq, although they did bid for the Saudi contract to get Saddam out of Kuwait.
Saddam loyal insurgents and religious extremists in Iraq have been trying to kill each other right from the beginning. They are not in any way allied. You might even go as far as to say they are currently engaged in a war with eachother for that country.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
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unlike you i did learn stuff as you seem to inebt, dont you watch tv on history from every channel in the world? if not then what have i got to say then your an idoit and go learn that. thanks
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bye
No thanks, I just did a quick read thru and if you're too lazy to summarize (in your own words) then Im too lazy to refute. about half of what you posted had major repititions. And some of it wasn't even supporting you case.
Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)
Ever thought what we Americans think about your country? You're all lazy!
edit: my post is directed at the OP, i'm not reading all 5 pages...
It's 15 pages. And no, as long as it doesn't affect me or my country I don't care. Besides, it'll be 300 million different views anyways.
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It's 15 pages. And no, as long as it doesn't affect me or my country I don't care. Besides, it'll be 300 million different views anyways.
I must have my forum settings different. Says 5 for me...