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Props to Dundee
SofaKing2000
Member Posts: 196
I used to rap with Jeff (Dundee) back in the UOL days.
I can't belive he actually came here.
As you all know, Jeff is the one responsible for the NGE. Well not fullly responsible, but he had a hand in it.
He always said he likes FPS games more than Sandbox type games.
I gotta give props to him for showing up here. This place can get ugly. BUT!!!
Im suprised Jeff didn't get a "Full on assault" Rainbow 6 style from you all.
Im very disapointed.
He's 85% of the reason why we have forums like this, hating on SWG,
I like Jeff as a man, In the real world. He's a guy I'd like to have a nip of Scotch with and discuss world events, but in the cyber world he's our enemy!
Keep fighting the good fight brothers and sisters!
Carichiafet (Shadowfire)
Comments
I don't know what the hell your talking about in all honesty but if Dundee is watching, I can sound off one more time.
Give me classic servers.
'Everybody wants to be like me".
No and everybody doesn't want to be like you either Jeff so stay off my lawn. Or is it sandbox?
I sleep with a pillow under my gun.
ANYONE who pushed, designed or supported the NGE is an IDIOT. The only thing they deserve is a kick in the goods for back-stabbing thier loyal customers. If they wanted to make an NGE, they should have done it in a NEW GAME, not one people had invested time & affection into. Galaxies was steadily between 400k to 500k, and could have gone higher if these same IDIOTS would have focused on releasing a COMPLETE game and fixing the DAMN BUGS, rather then spending MASSIVE resources to redesign a game that's already out.
Galaxies was FAR from hurting for subs. It was either the #1 or #2 until these IDIOTS started messing with it to catch the mythical WoW'ers, rather then addressing what the players had been BEGGING them to fix. The leading cause of people quitting before the CU for my friends were the mind-numbing tasks, such as reloading vendors, and the lack of a GCW, NOT shinny new buttons to click. To change a game in ways the players did NOT want is nothing but a combination of huberous & idiocy. Anyone that would be proud of taking a game from 500k subs to 200k subs to 20k subs is a MORON, PERIOD.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Eh, not quite. I would put subs between 200-250K tops. SWG peaked subscribers three months after launch. Smed himself stated the reasons for the NGE and the CU for that matters was that they were bleeding subs and thought this would be a way to fix it.
They were wrong of course.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Eh, not quite. I would put subs between 200-250K tops. SWG peaked subscribers three months after launch. Smed himself stated the reasons for the NGE and the CU for that matters was that they were bleeding subs and thought this would be a way to fix it.
They were wrong of course.
Amazing how Smed and others that use that to excuse the NGE forget to mention most of the people that left SWG in the months pre NGE left because of other idiotic dev decisions like the XP nerf that lasted for 2 days and then kept trying to sneak back in again when we weren't looking or the changes to how snare works.
Slowly dieing from stupidity and mismanagement to putting yourself into intensive care from stupidity and mismanagement ..... yeah that was an improvement.
Eh, not quite. I would put subs between 200-250K tops. SWG peaked subscribers three months after launch. Smed himself stated the reasons for the NGE and the CU for that matters was that they were bleeding subs and thought this would be a way to fix it.
They were wrong of course.
It was stated somewhere as having over 350k -- I dont know where now
Again Jeff is no longer with them and nobody is stroking any ego. he is not 85% responsible for the NGE whoever thinks that is just foolish... I mean really.
He was ONE idea of many as I can bet. His idea was the one they went with... IT WAS A BAD IDEA.
In the end everyone lost... BUT at least he is man enough to come here and discuss as much as he did and could.
If you cannot figure out that they are limited to what they can say, then I am sorry about that too, I know that in thier own way they are saying sorry I think as much as possible. GRANTED THEY ARE NOT OFF THE HOOK!!!
Im still mad, still ticked and I do wish they listened to us. Now it is damage control and people leaving and or getting fired... which is a bad sign and pretty much means this is over.
None the less, I rather have some dialog with them now and understand more about this mess.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
I sleep with a pillow under my gun.
Again Jeff is no longer with them and nobody is stroking any ego. he is not 85% responsible for the NGE whoever thinks that is just foolish... I mean really.
He was ONE idea of many as I can bet. His idea was the one they went with... IT WAS A BAD IDEA.
In the end everyone lost... BUT at least he is man enough to come here and discuss as much as he did and could.
If you cannot figure out that they are limited to what they can say, then I am sorry about that too, I know that in thier own way they are saying sorry I think as much as possible. GRANTED THEY ARE NOT OFF THE HOOK!!!
Im still mad, still ticked and I do wish they listened to us. Now it is damage control and people leaving and or getting fired... which is a bad sign and pretty much means this is over.
None the less, I rather have some dialog with them now and understand more about this mess.
I think the 350K was at its peak subscriber time....but meh its old, old news anyway. As far as who is to blame, there is no one person. SOE and LA and the developers and execs within are as equal to blame. they will always try and point the finger at the other or to one person but that is just laughable. Jeff is no more of a man than he was before he posted here. It doesn't take any kind of "courage" to post in a forum, thats just crazy. He said what he wanted then left, nothing more.
Was the highlighted comment directed at me? LOL. I am fully aware of NDA's signed by those that work for major companies, I am bound by a quite a few non-game related ones myself.
Why do you still need answers for what they did? For closure? Like they are suddenly gonna spill there guts to us? That's a laugh.Trust me, MMO developers out there have taken heed to what SOE did and is still doing. Hell it was briefed by SOE themselves of what not to do. I really don't see how difficult this problem is to see:
1. They were losing subs and wanted to stop it
2. They developed the CU in an early attempt which resulted in exactly the opposite of what they wanted.
3. Instead of going back to what they had, some group in the heirarchy thought it would be better to revamp yet again and "surprise" audience with yet another revamp.
4. The audience revolted and left.
The End.
They gambled big and lost. Companies do this all the time.This forum loves to beat dead horses constantly in here. Lets let this one go and move on to discussing future SW MMO's. Your gonna drive yourselves nuts trying to figure out every possible aspect of what happened. Honestly, who cares anymore. Those that want to still play will and those that don't want to won't. When SOE and/or LA come out with a new MMO, there will be plenty of folks ringing warning bells early on and watching the development like a hawk. Hell, look at Vanguard.
*Edit - Yes I know Vanguard wasn't developed by SOE
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Page no longer exists according to the MMORPG.com gods.......
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Eh, not quite. I would put subs between 200-250K tops. SWG peaked subscribers three months after launch. Smed himself stated the reasons for the NGE and the CU for that matters was that they were bleeding subs and thought this would be a way to fix it.
They were wrong of course.
Actually, go to the LS or SOE site and look at the old PR's. Ones says "400k Active Sunscibers" and one says "500k Users", so, quite.
Also, SWG was not Bleeding subs, it was loosing and gaining as many subs as would be expected. The problem was, and said by Smed, was that they never reached the number they thought the game should be at (code language for "SW means WE'RE supposed to have all the WoW'ers). Up until the CU, Every one of my Guildies had left due to bug frustration, DOT's, Loading Vedors, Comp Wars & Buffs, but we ALL came back... over & over...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Looks like th MMo mods deleted the post. Must have gotten fiery.
Also, SWG was not Bleeding subs, it was loosing and gaining as many subs as would be expected. The problem was, and said by Smed, was that they never reached the number they thought the game should be at (code language for "SW means WE'RE supposed to have all the WoW'ers). Up until the CU, Every one of my Guildies had left due to bug frustration, DOT's, Loading Vedors, Comp Wars & Buffs, but we ALL came back... over & over...
I've never doubted that they were bleeding subs, I was one of the people quitting in pre-CU. But not over Raph's vision or design. Over the pure ineptitude of execution and the amateurish quality of their coding and QA procedures. I'm a grown-up, I'm not going to pay month after month for crap code that seems to be thrown together using the 'lots of chimps with typewriters' method.
Just giving up on producing a quality version of the product they sold me and dumbing it down to something I never would have been interested in the first place, replacing a promising virtual world with a moronic half-FPS of lower quality than ever before, just guaranteed I'd head out the door and never look back.
It takes balls to do that.
Now, I don't blame the whole NGE on Freeman, it wasn't solely his fault. Where are the others? Where is the apology? Where is action to correct the mistake that even SOE seems to admit that it is?
As in UNDO IT....
Look at Smed, he still hides behind his desk at SOE, once in while he pops out to spin his lies, make his fanbois bow and send people donuts. Helios just plays oblivious to anything. He puts on his "I'm really a nice guy" face to make it look like you're the asshole for wanting to verbally kick his ass on the boards, then takes revenge out by destroying worlds as he so nicely put it on his Myspace. Im pretty disappointed in the entire MMO industry as whole. It reminds me of an obnoxious fraternity of collage kids looked on by most as golden boys, but in reality they harbor darker secrets for the destruction of each other and those around them. Speak no wrong of your fellow brothers or thou shalt suffer the consequences and live on thy streets.
SWG has truly impacted the MMO industry second only to WoW.
NO ONE will ever do what SWG did, as in completely change the game twice, with the second change kicking over any trace of the original game. NO ONE will ever dare do that.
Of course no one ever SHOULD have done that. SOE should have counted themselves lucky that they got away with the CU. The NGE was just a stake to the hearts of those who adapted to the CU and went on.
The empty servers do not lie. NGE is a complete and utter failure. If it had merits, if it were a fun game, it would gain subscribers.
It doesn't.
It was a piss poor idea, piss poorly executed.
Also, SOE is DONE as a major MMO company. Once EQ/EQ2 run their course, that's it. They are forever stained by SWG. I predict that each and every game with the SOE logo on it (including Vanguard and DC Comics) fail because of the logo.
They will fail because no mention of SOE will ever stand without someone bringing up the NGE, we will be avenged by the fact that SOE is doomed and will not long survive SWGNGE's imminent shutdown.
SOE has made their bed full of fleas and now they must (try) to sleep in it.
Actually, go to the LS or SOE site and look at the old PR's. Ones says "400k Active Sunscibers" and one says "500k Users", so, quite.
Subscribers? Your kidding me right? Anyone who registers on the SWG boards is considered a subscriber. Look at EVE, 300k to 500k subscribers but only a 150k playerbase. I have yet to see the 500k PR report.
Also, SWG was not Bleeding subs, it was loosing and gaining as many subs as would be expected. The problem was, and said by Smed, was that they never reached the number they thought the game should be at (code language for "SW means WE'RE supposed to have all the WoW'ers). Up until the CU, Every one of my Guildies had left due to bug frustration, DOT's, Loading Vedors, Comp Wars & Buffs, but we ALL came back... over & over...
Smed himself said referring to the NGE:
"It was a business decision based upon a declining playerbase. One thing thats lost in this discussion is that with the playerbase leaving we had to do something. Its great to get emails from players where they say SWG before the NGE was the greatest game ever, but the declining playerbase told us something different. "
They knew they were losing subs and tried to fix it with the NGE. It failed. You and your guildies that left prior to the NGE are part of the "declining playerbase" that he mentions twice.
Comments in red.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
I sleep with a pillow under my gun.
I would like Jeff to know that it was me that stole his BMW last night. Also it was me that delivered a LADA in its place, with a letter to him explaining why it was necessary.
I'm sure Jeff was wondering who to thank, and was perplexed as to why he bought a BMW in the first place since the LADA is obviously what any BMW driver would preffer!
Well you can thank me Jeff, oh and don't worry, all those little problems with the car (like no brakes and the accelerator is really laggy) will be sorted out in six months. Oh and you're probably wondering why it has had all of the seats except one removed along with the doors and three tyres and no trunk? Well a little focus group of car owners told me that they weren't really "automobilesy" and the seat and tyre you have now are far more iconic.
You know the last DEV I did this to told me that if he wanted to drive a pile of s*** he'd have bought one in the first place. Then he started demanding his Mercedes back and threatened me with a lawsuit. I mean what an ungratefull whiner, and what's his problem about wanting his money back? You know what Jeff, we're all just better off to have those types of retards off the road altogether! I told him that if you don't like the car, just shut up and buy a new one! But he just kept whining for his old one back, something about it being the car he wanted and he paid for it, I mean what an idiot right Jeff?
Oh and I must thank you Jeff and all the SWG team as you convinced me to dump the SWG turd before the C/U/R/B and get EVE. It took the NGE for my girlfriend to cancel the account in the end, she thanks you for helping her also find a decent MMORPG.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Actually, go to the LS or SOE site and look at the old PR's. Ones says "400k Active Sunscibers" and one says "500k Users", so, quite.
Subscribers? Your kidding me right? Anyone who registers on the SWG boards is considered a subscriber. Look at EVE, 300k to 500k subscribers but only a 150k playerbase. I have yet to see the 500k PR report.
Come on, that's just not true and you know it.
Also, SWG was not Bleeding subs, it was loosing and gaining as many subs as would be expected. The problem was, and said by Smed, was that they never reached the number they thought the game should be at (code language for "SW means WE'RE supposed to have all the WoW'ers). Up until the CU, Every one of my Guildies had left due to bug frustration, DOT's, Loading Vedors, Comp Wars & Buffs, but we ALL came back... over & over...
Smed himself said referring to the NGE:
"It was a business decision based upon a declining playerbase. One thing thats lost in this discussion is that with the playerbase leaving we had to do something. Its great to get emails from players where they say SWG before the NGE was the greatest game ever, but the declining playerbase told us something different. "
They knew they were losing subs and tried to fix it with the NGE. It failed. You and your guildies that left prior to the NGE are part of the "declining playerbase" that he mentions twice.
Please. You're quoting the Devil who's claiming he had to turn up the heat in hell, it was cold.
Comments in red.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
All I know, is that if I find a game with Jeffs name on the box or in the credit list, I would not bring that game home.
He's shown his worth, and his worth is failure.
Eh, not quite. I would put subs between 200-250K tops. SWG peaked subscribers three months after launch. Smed himself stated the reasons for the NGE and the CU for that matters was that they were bleeding subs and thought this would be a way to fix it.
They were wrong of course.
Amazing how Smed and others that use that to excuse the NGE forget to mention most of the people that left SWG in the months pre NGE left because of other idiotic dev decisions like the XP nerf that lasted for 2 days and then kept trying to sneak back in again when we weren't looking or the changes to how snare works.
Slowly dieing from stupidity and mismanagement to putting yourself into intensive care from stupidity and mismanagement ..... yeah that was an improvement.
Exactly. The NGE (and the CU before it) was a way for Smedley to CYA over his bad management of the game from before launch. HIS decisions led to a subscription bleed, but he managed to obscure that fact with two redesigns.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Actually, go to the LS or SOE site and look at the old PR's. Ones says "400k Active Sunscibers" and one says "500k Users", so, quite.
Subscribers? Your kidding me right? Anyone who registers on the SWG boards is considered a subscriber. Look at EVE, 300k to 500k subscribers but only a 150k playerbase. I have yet to see the 500k PR report.
Come on, that's just not true and you know it.
Do you play MMO's at all? Which part can you just not believe? The fact that subscribers to a game do not equal actual players (a commonly known thing for MMO players)... Or the fact that EVE most likely has more players than SWG at the moment?
Also, SWG was not Bleeding subs, it was loosing and gaining as many subs as would be expected. The problem was, and said by Smed, was that they never reached the number they thought the game should be at (code language for "SW means WE'RE supposed to have all the WoW'ers). Up until the CU, Every one of my Guildies had left due to bug frustration, DOT's, Loading Vedors, Comp Wars & Buffs, but we ALL came back... over & over...
Smed himself said referring to the NGE:
"It was a business decision based upon a declining playerbase. One thing thats lost in this discussion is that with the playerbase leaving we had to do something. Its great to get emails from players where they say SWG before the NGE was the greatest game ever, but the declining playerbase told us something different. "
They knew they were losing subs and tried to fix it with the NGE. It failed. You and your guildies that left prior to the NGE are part of the "declining playerbase" that he mentions twice.
Please. You're quoting the Devil who's claiming he had to turn up the heat in hell, it was cold.
LOL. Yet you say he said something else. You seem to like to use him as ammunition until someone throws it back on you here. I quoted him directly, something I have yet to see in any reply from you. If you have issue with what he says take it up with him.
But if you believe him to be "the Devil" and not trustworthy of what he says maybe you shouldn't use him to justify your arguments eh?
*EDIT - Comments in green
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Actually, go to the LS or SOE site and look at the old PR's. Ones says "400k Active Sunscibers" and one says "500k Users", so, quite.
Subscribers? Your kidding me right? Anyone who registers on the SWG boards is considered a subscriber. Look at EVE, 300k to 500k subscribers but only a 150k playerbase. I have yet to see the 500k PR report.
Come on, that's just not true and you know it.
Do you play MMO's at all? Which part can you just not believe? The fact that subscribers to a game do not equal actual players (a commonly known thing for MMO players)... Or the fact that EVE most likely has more players than SWG at the moment?
Ok, what part do you not get? SUBSCRIPTIONS mean people that SUBSCRIBE. YOU PAY. If you're going to argue this point, you look like a fool. I never said anything about poeple that play, we were talking about SWG Subs at it's prime, scroll up. SWG has no more them 25k Subs if they're Lucky, and that based on the Forums use %.
Also, SWG was not Bleeding subs, it was loosing and gaining as many subs as would be expected. The problem was, and said by Smed, was that they never reached the number they thought the game should be at (code language for "SW means WE'RE supposed to have all the WoW'ers). Up until the CU, Every one of my Guildies had left due to bug frustration, DOT's, Loading Vedors, Comp Wars & Buffs, but we ALL came back... over & over...
Smed himself said referring to the NGE:
"It was a business decision based upon a declining playerbase. One thing thats lost in this discussion is that with the playerbase leaving we had to do something. Its great to get emails from players where they say SWG before the NGE was the greatest game ever, but the declining playerbase told us something different. "
They knew they were losing subs and tried to fix it with the NGE. It failed. You and your guildies that left prior to the NGE are part of the "declining playerbase" that he mentions twice.
Please. You're quoting the Devil who's claiming he had to turn up the heat in hell, it was cold.
LOL. Yet you say he said something else. You seem to like to use him as ammunition until someone throws it back on you here. I quoted him directly, something I have yet to see in any reply from you. If you have issue with what he says take it up with him.
But if you believe him to be "the Devil" and not trustworthy of what he says maybe you shouldn't use him to justify your arguments eh?
Err... Einstien... You refered to Smed, not me... I pointed out the FACT that the servers were full & some even had waiting cues. I also refered to the FACT that the only PR announcements made about sub were the PR releases saying 1) the had over 400k Subs & 2 ) the were going to be hitting 500k soon. Stop making stuff up, and you may be able to put together a real arguement.
*EDIT - Comments in green
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!