Why is Wow and Guild Wars getting smacked with sooooo much trash talk, Wow is a nice game I finally played it and I liked it, Guild Wars is a great game for what it is( and yes it's not a game for everyone), SWG was very fun as well until SOE did what they did, UO got to old school (but I enjoyed it as well), and EQ got whatever it got to turn people away from it, and DAoC was fun for a time also.
Theres going to be mmo's for all kinds of people for all kinds of reason's, bitching and complaining about who's doing what to what game is childish. I play GW alot (but why you dont like it doesn't matter to me or anyone else) just like those who play Wow your opinion of how bad or terrible it is doesn't matter, but here's alittle news flash the game that you people are waiting for will never be made in your life time. if this genre is still around 100 year's from now. so get over it, go back to one you already own or buy a new one or don't play these games anymore and be quiet, dev's and publishers are going to do what they want with or without your opinion or your permishing.
This is real life------you have no control of what the gaming industry is going to do with or without you.
The said fact is there isnt a DEV team thats come to light yet, that really has a clue.
The reason so many hype themselves as something that can reach WoW proporations in customer base, is that they understand that all their attempts so far to capture a decent sized base to this date have failed.
Think back to before WOW numbers .All the DEV teams jumped up and down and did their little song and dance routine about how well they had done to capture 300K players.
They didnt have a clue how bad those numbers where compared to the potential they failed to reach.
Now though, despite their efforts to ressist reconizing how badly subscription wise those games actually did,they cant help but realize that their own perspective customers wont fall for the old " look how well we did" line.
So the only marketing choice available to them ,that doesnt make them look even worse than they already do, is to say "we'll beat the wow numbers this time".
Sadly they wont.
Even saddier is that their new target ,is itself underperforming.Most people wont see or admit to this.Its gonna take a game that puts wows numbers to shame before people admit it.
But it will happen eventually.
And than, wether or not that new game numbers are still underperforming, the new MMOs to come at that time will talk about beating its numbers.
MMO devs are currently like bad archers aiming for the wrong target, and than undershooting on top of that.
If a dev team came along that had the skill, brains and competance to create a game worthy enough, it would not only capture much of the WoW base, not only much of the other MMO bases, but the 20- 30% that continually state how they are not playing anything out there because the quality is just too low.
What worries me the most is that wow is seriously lacking in content when compared with previous MMOs. That is unless you count 40-man raids that take five months at 20 hours a week to complete (which is technically content but about as much fun as sticking a fork up your butt). Anyways, the point is that I'm concerned developers are going to feel that since Blizzard could make an MMO with minimal content, that they can too.
BioWare care enough to know when to not listen and just make it great. How do you know this? Have you worked for BioWare or know of them first hand besides playing their games? Yes, they will take the good from WoW, just like a hunter who kill a prey will take meat, fur and the like. A barbarian girl wearing furs might be droolicious, while the bear was scarry. I don't understand how that bear analogy applies to anything.
I assume that BioWare will rock our world, better than WoW did...and I can't wait honestly! I could be wrong, like I was for DDO, but I am rather confident from what I read so far. Doesn't seem like they will enforce raiding, which is honestly a major aspect in itself. Also, how do you know that BioWare will "rock our world?" Many people we're highly anticipating DDO:S, like you. Many people were also anticipating DnL. Both those games shot straight into the ground.
If a dev team came along that had the skill, brains and competance to create a game worthy enough, it would not only capture much of the WoW base,
Not likely. Like it or not WoW is a fad. Im not suggesting its a fad that is going to run out of steam tomorrow, but when it does they players will not go to some other MMO.
Most of WoWs player base were not MMO customers to begin with and once they get tired of WoW they will go back to not playing MMOs. They may play other online games, but most will not be playing MMOs as we know then on this site a decade from now. The most likely scenario is that they will be playing some hit net connected consol game, but you can never really predict what the next fad will be.
Since you cant predict the next fad, smart investors and smart developers do not try. Notice that almost no developer ever tries to suggest they will get WoW like numbers. From an investor standpoint you want to see a company have a realistic reason they will be able to hit 100K-200K subscribers. You can make a tidy profit at these levels and there are multiple unexploited niches that make then reasonable.
The ultimate future of MMOs isnt the supergame its a collection of games targeted at more specific niches. The successful developers will be the ones who can find unoccupied niches or niches where the incumbents are vulnerable to a well made game.
The players who played wow as their first MMO are already moving to other MMOs.You can see tons of posts saying exactly that on these forums.
The next big "success" mmo will be the one that caters to more player types than wow does, and does it better for each type.Which really wouldnt be hard to do.Only problem is most (if not all) of the current dev teams out there are dinosaurs mired in tar,refusing to alter their personal "visions" to include all the player types.
And so they only capture small amounts of the possible player base, and most of that is of one or two specific player types.
Most of the time, people refer to WoW simply because its the sub benchmark.
However, Turbine talks about WoW because they really want to actually make WoW, and they really want to actually be Blizzard. I wish they'd standardize their MMOG naming system.
It is tempting to think that WoW's success is due to the interface, linearity, graphics, classes, etc. However, I'm starting to think that the thing that made WoW great had nothing to do with any of that. The thing that made WoW great is the thing that MMO developers refuse to take seriously:
Design stability.
They don't go around making wholesale changes all the time, and that is something that SOE, Mythic, Turbine, NCSoft, and CCP refuse to understand. The changes Blizzard does make are small and inconsequental, and even in those situations where change would have been better in terms of overall game design theory (like the paladin/shaman issue), they would rather maintain what they launched with, than make the change.
The problem in many MMO groups is that they can't leave the game alone after launch. Live teams are not restrained, and they refuse to give the subscribers a developed product, onlly one that is perpetually in development, and never gets finished.
I do not think I am alone in wanting to pay for a game, not a question mark. While WoW is not my cup of tea, at least I know that if I pay for three months or a year in advance, the rulebook will be more similar than different on the first day of my subscription all the way to my last.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
WoW is far from a stable and unchanged product. Since release they have constantly tweaked everything in the game with small touches that have ended up being massive changes. Most class rolls have been changed dramtically such as warriors went from tanking only to DPSing to soon copmeting for tanking duties and DPS duties. Lets not even mention druids and all that as it is too depressing. The whole no rading, all raiding, and medium raiding to do anythign endgame thing. No grinding as a philosophy to faction grinding for MONTHS with timers. Removing PvP for BGs...etc etc etc
WoW is nothing near the game it was at release. If they fixed the minor issues at release rather than rehash the game you would see far more panda cubs and mini diabolo owners still playing.
The problem is, as you've likely figured out, that most of the posters on forums like these (specifically, the ones who make posts like the ones you mention) are really limited in their imagination.
In their stunted minds, it's always "There can be only 1!! X vs. Y !! The ultimate showdown!!! etc" and stuff like that. They think that only one game can ever be good at one time. They think that every game has to compete directly with eachother. They don't tend to think very much else because of their limited mental capacity.
Sadly, this isn't something new. When EQ was the popular MMO, all the posts were "EQ Clone" and "EQ killer?" etc. I doubt it'll stop here either. Perhaps in 2 years time we'll be bitching about "WAR clone" and "WAR killer", or some other MMO inserted into those types of topics.
As far as "clones", for 99.999% of the market, none of the games are really clones imho. Otherwise, they all have to be clones of eachother, and what's worse, is that they're clones of clones. For example, someone mentioned that WoW is supposedly an "EQ Clone". Well unfortunately EQ was based on MUDs and an RPG that the creators played together. Thus you could easily say that EQ was a clone of whatever RPG it was, or that EQ was a MUD clone. Of course, then you'd have to say that MUDs are clones of the old text based RPGs. Those would be clones of the tabletop RPGs, and those would be clones of other tabletop games. The list just goes on. Honestly, calling one game a clone of another generally just shows that you really don't know either game that well. It's very rare that any one game is actually a clone of another. There are a few exceptions. The original DAoC I found to be a near-clone of the original EQ, and LOTRO is almost literally a clone of DDO, but beyond that I really don't see any other games that are so similar. (And even EQ and DAoC diverged from one another)
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Comments
Why is Wow and Guild Wars getting smacked with sooooo much trash talk, Wow is a nice game I finally played it and I liked it, Guild Wars is a great game for what it is( and yes it's not a game for everyone), SWG was very fun as well until SOE did what they did, UO got to old school (but I enjoyed it as well), and EQ got whatever it got to turn people away from it, and DAoC was fun for a time also.
Theres going to be mmo's for all kinds of people for all kinds of reason's, bitching and complaining about who's doing what to what game is childish. I play GW alot (but why you dont like it doesn't matter to me or anyone else) just like those who play Wow your opinion of how bad or terrible it is doesn't matter, but here's alittle news flash the game that you people are waiting for will never be made in your life time. if this genre is still around 100 year's from now. so get over it, go back to one you already own or buy a new one or don't play these games anymore and be quiet, dev's and publishers are going to do what they want with or without your opinion or your permishing.
This is real life------you have no control of what the gaming industry is going to do with or without you.
Evil will always triumph because good is dumb....
The said fact is there isnt a DEV team thats come to light yet, that really has a clue.
The reason so many hype themselves as something that can reach WoW proporations in customer base, is that they understand that all their attempts so far to capture a decent sized base to this date have failed.
Think back to before WOW numbers .All the DEV teams jumped up and down and did their little song and dance routine about how well they had done to capture 300K players.
They didnt have a clue how bad those numbers where compared to the potential they failed to reach.
Now though, despite their efforts to ressist reconizing how badly subscription wise those games actually did,they cant help but realize that their own perspective customers wont fall for the old " look how well we did" line.
So the only marketing choice available to them ,that doesnt make them look even worse than they already do, is to say "we'll beat the wow numbers this time".
Sadly they wont.
Even saddier is that their new target ,is itself underperforming.Most people wont see or admit to this.Its gonna take a game that puts wows numbers to shame before people admit it.
But it will happen eventually.
And than, wether or not that new game numbers are still underperforming, the new MMOs to come at that time will talk about beating its numbers.
MMO devs are currently like bad archers aiming for the wrong target, and than undershooting on top of that.
If a dev team came along that had the skill, brains and competance to create a game worthy enough, it would not only capture much of the WoW base, not only much of the other MMO bases, but the 20- 30% that continually state how they are not playing anything out there because the quality is just too low.
/duelcommence
Not likely. Like it or not WoW is a fad. Im not suggesting its a fad that is going to run out of steam tomorrow, but when it does they players will not go to some other MMO.
Most of WoWs player base were not MMO customers to begin with and once they get tired of WoW they will go back to not playing MMOs. They may play other online games, but most will not be playing MMOs as we know then on this site a decade from now. The most likely scenario is that they will be playing some hit net connected consol game, but you can never really predict what the next fad will be.
Since you cant predict the next fad, smart investors and smart developers do not try. Notice that almost no developer ever tries to suggest they will get WoW like numbers. From an investor standpoint you want to see a company have a realistic reason they will be able to hit 100K-200K subscribers. You can make a tidy profit at these levels and there are multiple unexploited niches that make then reasonable.
The ultimate future of MMOs isnt the supergame its a collection of games targeted at more specific niches. The successful developers will be the ones who can find unoccupied niches or niches where the incumbents are vulnerable to a well made game.
I disagree strongly.
The players who played wow as their first MMO are already moving to other MMOs.You can see tons of posts saying exactly that on these forums.
The next big "success" mmo will be the one that caters to more player types than wow does, and does it better for each type.Which really wouldnt be hard to do.Only problem is most (if not all) of the current dev teams out there are dinosaurs mired in tar,refusing to alter their personal "visions" to include all the player types.
And so they only capture small amounts of the possible player base, and most of that is of one or two specific player types.
However, Turbine talks about WoW because they really want to actually make WoW, and they really want to actually be Blizzard. I wish they'd standardize their MMOG naming system.
WoW Clone #37: Lord of the Rings License
It is tempting to think that WoW's success is due to the interface, linearity, graphics, classes, etc. However, I'm starting to think that the thing that made WoW great had nothing to do with any of that. The thing that made WoW great is the thing that MMO developers refuse to take seriously:
Design stability.
They don't go around making wholesale changes all the time, and that is something that SOE, Mythic, Turbine, NCSoft, and CCP refuse to understand. The changes Blizzard does make are small and inconsequental, and even in those situations where change would have been better in terms of overall game design theory (like the paladin/shaman issue), they would rather maintain what they launched with, than make the change.
The problem in many MMO groups is that they can't leave the game alone after launch. Live teams are not restrained, and they refuse to give the subscribers a developed product, onlly one that is perpetually in development, and never gets finished.
I do not think I am alone in wanting to pay for a game, not a question mark. While WoW is not my cup of tea, at least I know that if I pay for three months or a year in advance, the rulebook will be more similar than different on the first day of my subscription all the way to my last.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
WoW is far from a stable and unchanged product. Since release they have constantly tweaked everything in the game with small touches that have ended up being massive changes. Most class rolls have been changed dramtically such as warriors went from tanking only to DPSing to soon copmeting for tanking duties and DPS duties. Lets not even mention druids and all that as it is too depressing. The whole no rading, all raiding, and medium raiding to do anythign endgame thing. No grinding as a philosophy to faction grinding for MONTHS with timers. Removing PvP for BGs...etc etc etc
WoW is nothing near the game it was at release. If they fixed the minor issues at release rather than rehash the game you would see far more panda cubs and mini diabolo owners still playing.
The problem is, as you've likely figured out, that most of the posters on forums like these (specifically, the ones who make posts like the ones you mention) are really limited in their imagination.
In their stunted minds, it's always "There can be only 1!! X vs. Y !! The ultimate showdown!!! etc" and stuff like that. They think that only one game can ever be good at one time. They think that every game has to compete directly with eachother. They don't tend to think very much else because of their limited mental capacity.
Sadly, this isn't something new. When EQ was the popular MMO, all the posts were "EQ Clone" and "EQ killer?" etc. I doubt it'll stop here either. Perhaps in 2 years time we'll be bitching about "WAR clone" and "WAR killer", or some other MMO inserted into those types of topics.
As far as "clones", for 99.999% of the market, none of the games are really clones imho. Otherwise, they all have to be clones of eachother, and what's worse, is that they're clones of clones. For example, someone mentioned that WoW is supposedly an "EQ Clone". Well unfortunately EQ was based on MUDs and an RPG that the creators played together. Thus you could easily say that EQ was a clone of whatever RPG it was, or that EQ was a MUD clone. Of course, then you'd have to say that MUDs are clones of the old text based RPGs. Those would be clones of the tabletop RPGs, and those would be clones of other tabletop games. The list just goes on. Honestly, calling one game a clone of another generally just shows that you really don't know either game that well. It's very rare that any one game is actually a clone of another. There are a few exceptions. The original DAoC I found to be a near-clone of the original EQ, and LOTRO is almost literally a clone of DDO, but beyond that I really don't see any other games that are so similar. (And even EQ and DAoC diverged from one another)
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000