I think all those poor souls looking to get the old feeling back from the EQ days will be sorely disappointed. EQ was EQ, Vanguard is Vanguard. Actually, even if Vanguard was EQ, I doubt they'd get the same feeling. You can only lose your virginity once, or something along those lines.
As far as the gaming remaining sooper dooper hardcore? Doubtful. Once Sigil sells it off to SOE, expect some hefty changes. NGE: Vanguard edition.
Im not looking for EQ! Im looking for Vanguard! I doubt it will be sold off to SOE TBH, and if it is, Conan looks promising. It doesn't need to be "super, duper hardcore" but it is shaping up to be a more elaborate venture than any of the other MMOs out there. As for capturing the "feeling" of EQ, there have been several times since I've been playing Vanguard where I have definitely experienced that old "feeling"
Its really sad that most of the devs today think that to make decent cash you have to follow that poor excuse for a game WoW. What they fail to realize is that the Original eq had a pretty good following, and most of em werent just there for lack of games to play. Lots of people were there because they liked playing a challenging game. A good part of the people i talked to in my month fiasco into wow were just there till something else came along.
Im not going to go so far as to say that WoW will take a substantial income hit due to vanguard, but then again i think they will loose quite a few that are just there for lack of something better. If Vanguard delivers half of what it claims without all the waterd down as stated b4 TRAINING wheel game. they will proly pull most of the hard cores from lots of the other games. including EQ2 and lots of pple that still just ramble around eq1 these days.
Im not saying that Vanguard will be the messiah of MMORPGs but a lil depth and challenge never hurts anyone. Lets just hope that he dosnt sell out like eq. Lets hope sony dosnt pressure them into doing something stupid by tring to drag in all of wows customers. Lets cross our fingers that they stay true to the game design and not water it down for the masses. I can only hope.
if they start to go the way of the wow all mighty dollar greedy klfjdsl;kjfdaskl;jflsda!!! I guess ill just have to make my own MMORPG lol the only other prospect i see after this is this dosnt work are maby AOC and WO. I really havent saw many upcomming games in the next few years.
Hopefully (and Im not sure they have at all) SOE has learned that "WoWifying" games doesn't necessarily make them prosperous. Case in point SWG. That was a successful game with a loyal following. After it's "Wowification" it has very few players at all. There is a market out there for the games that appeal to the dedicated player and it's wide open right now. It may not be 7 million strong, but if I wanted a chat client with Smurfy graphics, I can customize my Live Messenger frames thank you very much
S
PS : Sadly, it appears as though EQ2 is going down the "WoWification" route as well.
The Vanguard chorus is so vague in their replies. . . All I got from reading a ton of posts is that you guys want to not have the game "WoW ified", which I assume means that you want all the timesinks in Vanguard, and that you don't want to be able to find quests without seeking online guides like people do for both EQ and EQ 2. Add in a spice of contempt for people who don't find timesinks challenging and instead seek games that are challenging in difficulty instead of merely time-consuming and that's all I'm getting from the later part of this thread.
I'm reading between the lines on a lot of this, so correct me if I didn't interpret the vague comments well.
Here's the thing. I didn't reply to this thread to say that Vanguard needs to be made into an accessible game. I agree that there may be a place in the MMO-industry for a hardcore game. I wanted to talk about grouping vs. solo with one poster and about how there is a difference between hardcore gamers in that they seem to desire timesinks and mainstream gamers who don't like timesinks. That's not an attack on Vanguard as a game or my stating that they should make it accessible. I'm not sure how these comments got interpreted this way.
Yes, I want "timesinks", death penalties etc. They are important! They allow for socialising and discussing encounters. I hate the way you can do instances in EQ2 for example. Go into a raid with repair kits and you can spam it until you get through it. Consequences make the game more immersive. They tend to make you far more careful and force you to think things through. There are enough "carebear", "training wheel" MMOs out there. We don't need another. Having to research things online etc forced one to use ones BRAIN! I like having to work for things, there is nothing wrong with it. EQ was a great game when it first appeared because you could get on the boat from FP to Kaladim and have a chat with the other passengers. Yes, it took time, but ultimately through conversations you build up friendships and alliances and you can also gleen tons of useful info. It feels like you are part of a world.
Yes, I want "timesinks", death penalties etc. They are important! They allow for socialising and discussing encounters. I hate the way you can do instances in EQ2 for example. Go into a raid with repair kits and you can spam it until you get through it. Consequences make the game more immersive. They tend to make you far more careful and force you to think things through. There are enough "carebear", "training wheel" MMOs out there. We don't need another. Having to research things online etc forced one to use ones BRAIN! I like having to work for things, there is nothing wrong with it. EQ was a great game when it first appeared because you could get on the boat from FP to Kaladim and have a chat with the other passengers. Yes, it took time, but ultimately through conversations you build up friendships and alliances and you can also gleen tons of useful info. It feels like you are part of a world. S
Timesinks & Socializing - You focused on a death penalty, but timesinks are a lot of things. Travel times that keep you from grouping quickly, group dependency that can make you progress slowly or not at all without a group, and repetitive content for uber drops are all part of this. Your argument is that they increase socializing and the requirement for strategy. I am a voice-chat only player, so I socialize even in MMOs that don't have timesinks. Typing in groups seems antiquated to me, but I've done it before and I can see how this would be needed for the slow pace of play and socializing that you get with groups that don't utilize voice-chat. That's a fair point for that type of player, I guess. For me, socializing doesn't require timesinks.
Harsh Death Penalties - Well, I don't like harsh death penalties because failing at my goal is enough punishment for me and I think that harsh death penalties lead to people playing cautiously and not taking chances. Sure, I can read a guide and/or get the perfect group to take on an encounter, but I'd much rather play it as "try and die". Maybe I'll die the first three times that I attempt to run an instance, but at least I get to learn it on my own instead of relying on online guides or more experienced players because I don't want to lose hours of character advancement because the game has harsh death penalties. Also, I find that harsh death penalties lead to easy content. EQ was an extremely easy game if you just looked at what was required to be successful on an adventure before attempting it, and because content was often difficult to find, nearly everyone who played it would look at guides when questing and not just grinding out xp.
"Carebear" and "Training Wheel" games - That's something I read a bunch from people. Is the intent just to be inflammatory or do you really think that enduring more tedium makes a game more challenging? I like games that are challenging, but maybe challenging means something else to you than it does to me? I find a challenging game should test my skill and mastery of the game. A game that is more time-consuming isn't harder. . . it's just more time-consuming. Challenge is about creating difficult content, and as I said before, the challenge is usually removed when you add in harsh death penalties.
Yes, I want "timesinks", death penalties etc. They are important! They allow for socialising and discussing encounters. I hate the way you can do instances in EQ2 for example. Go into a raid with repair kits and you can spam it until you get through it. Consequences make the game more immersive. They tend to make you far more careful and force you to think things through. There are enough "carebear", "training wheel" MMOs out there. We don't need another. Having to research things online etc forced one to use ones BRAIN! I like having to work for things, there is nothing wrong with it. EQ was a great game when it first appeared because you could get on the boat from FP to Kaladim and have a chat with the other passengers. Yes, it took time, but ultimately through conversations you build up friendships and alliances and you can also gleen tons of useful info. It feels like you are part of a world. S
Timesinks & Socializing - You focused on a death penalty, but timesinks are a lot of things. Travel times that keep you from grouping quickly, group dependency that can make you progress slowly or not at all without a group, and repetitive content for uber drops are all part of this. Your argument is that they increase socializing and the requirement for strategy. I am a voice-chat only player, so I socialize even in MMOs that don't have timesinks. Typing in groups seems antiquated to me, but I've done it before and I can see how this would be needed for the slow pace of play and socializing that you get with groups that don't utilize voice-chat. That's a fair point for that type of player, I guess. For me, socializing doesn't require timesinks.
Harsh Death Penalties - Well, I don't like harsh death penalties because failing at my goal is enough punishment for me and I think that harsh death penalties lead to people playing cautiously and not taking chances. Sure, I can read a guide and/or get the perfect group to take on an encounter, but I'd much rather play it as "try and die". Maybe I'll die the first three times that I attempt to run an instance, but at least I get to learn it on my own instead of relying on online guides or more experienced players because I don't want to lose hours of character advancement because the game has harsh death penalties. Also, I find that harsh death penalties lead to easy content. EQ was an extremely easy game if you just looked at what was required to be successful on an adventure before attempting it, and because content was often difficult to find, nearly everyone who played it would look at guides when questing and not just grinding out xp.
"Carebear" and "Training Wheel" games - That's something I read a bunch from people. Is the intent just to be inflammatory or do you really think that enduring more tedium makes a game more challenging? I like games that are challenging, but maybe challenging means something else to you than it does to me? I find a challenging game should test my skill and mastery of the game. A game that is more time-consuming isn't harder. . . it's just more time-consuming. Challenge is about creating difficult content, and as I said before, the challenge is usually removed when you add in harsh death penalties.
Challenge does not necessarily mean tedium. It is a pain in the ass to lose experience, but shouldn't you get some form of penalty for being a dumbass and fighting in an area that is too dangerous for you? Or perhaps you would rather play in a game where it's never too dangerous for you?
I don't want my next MMORPG to be as easy as WoW. I want it to be challenging. Can you define a way to make content more challenging without adding timesinks or tedium? I'll save you the tedium, there aren't. Any single way to make things harder I can logically translate it to a timesink. Time does equal challenge, it's about getting rid of the tedium.
Anyway, Vangaurds death penalty is going to be harsher than WoW. But let's face it, what in the hell isn't??
Yes, I want "timesinks", death penalties etc. They are important! They allow for socialising and discussing encounters. I hate the way you can do instances in EQ2 for example. Go into a raid with repair kits and you can spam it until you get through it. Consequences make the game more immersive. They tend to make you far more careful and force you to think things through. There are enough "carebear", "training wheel" MMOs out there. We don't need another. Having to research things online etc forced one to use ones BRAIN! I like having to work for things, there is nothing wrong with it. EQ was a great game when it first appeared because you could get on the boat from FP to Kaladim and have a chat with the other passengers. Yes, it took time, but ultimately through conversations you build up friendships and alliances and you can also gleen tons of useful info. It feels like you are part of a world. S
Timesinks & Socializing - You focused on a death penalty, but timesinks are a lot of things. Travel times that keep you from grouping quickly, group dependency that can make you progress slowly or not at all without a group, and repetitive content for uber drops are all part of this. Your argument is that they increase socializing and the requirement for strategy. I am a voice-chat only player, so I socialize even in MMOs that don't have timesinks. Typing in groups seems antiquated to me, but I've done it before and I can see how this would be needed for the slow pace of play and socializing that you get with groups that don't utilize voice-chat. That's a fair point for that type of player, I guess. For me, socializing doesn't require timesinks.
Harsh Death Penalties - Well, I don't like harsh death penalties because failing at my goal is enough punishment for me and I think that harsh death penalties lead to people playing cautiously and not taking chances. Sure, I can read a guide and/or get the perfect group to take on an encounter, but I'd much rather play it as "try and die". Maybe I'll die the first three times that I attempt to run an instance, but at least I get to learn it on my own instead of relying on online guides or more experienced players because I don't want to lose hours of character advancement because the game has harsh death penalties. Also, I find that harsh death penalties lead to easy content. EQ was an extremely easy game if you just looked at what was required to be successful on an adventure before attempting it, and because content was often difficult to find, nearly everyone who played it would look at guides when questing and not just grinding out xp.
"Carebear" and "Training Wheel" games - That's something I read a bunch from people. Is the intent just to be inflammatory or do you really think that enduring more tedium makes a game more challenging? I like games that are challenging, but maybe challenging means something else to you than it does to me? I find a challenging game should test my skill and mastery of the game. A game that is more time-consuming isn't harder. . . it's just more time-consuming. Challenge is about creating difficult content, and as I said before, the challenge is usually removed when you add in harsh death penalties.
Well, we dont agree on much. I enjoy travelling because it gives me the feeling that I am in the game world. I don't want to zone everywhere, its lame. Provided there are things to see and do along the way I am much happier travelling. It was one of the great things about EQ. I remember falling off the boat into shark infested waters and having to swim to shore while avoiding the Sharks and other underwater nasties. Time consuming is a result of the game being more challenging. A lot of people don't understand this. For example, travelling in EQ was very dangerous because you had to move through dangerous zones and it was a constant challenge to navigate them. The result is that things take exponentially longer than they do in other games. As for voice chat, I do when I am raiding etc but sometimes I don't want to be on TS or there is no reason to be. I am in total disagreement with your comments on socializing. The doctor lines in SWG are one of the best examples of how "timesinks" promote social behaviour.
Finally, "Carebear" and "Training wheel" MMOs are very apt descriptions IMHO. They very accurately describe that type of MMO. I don't think they are meant to be inflammatory at all. I think MOST casual gamers recognize the fact that they are casual gamers. My objections lie with the people who show up demanding that a game be changed to suit their play style. As I said before, if you don't like something, you quite simply cancel your subscription and move on (not you personally). SWG was ruined by this. Everyone was angry they couldn't be a Jedi in 10 minutes and the result is a dead game. I think Vanguard is being aimed at the more dedicated player and I think thats a good thing. We should get at least one game. I'm enjoying it a lot and playing about 8 hours a day. I don't know if Vanguard will be a game for you. Best way to find out is to join the open Beta and check it out for yourself!
We don't need another. Having to research things online etc forced one to use ones BRAIN! I like having to work for things, there is nothing wrong with it.
Errr, I think I use my brain more when I TRY something, then when I read on FoH forums. When I SOLO a rune (for a level 65 spell) on my own and figure a place to camp them, I was happy...and someone couldn't have read that on the net and benefit from it long enough before they "nerf it".
Either way, personnally I find the XP penalty in EQ to be laughable. Yet, it seems to be killing the casuals, I hardly see what it brings. I will run ahead and try something impossible, XP penalty or not. I will use my brain FAR more than if I would search the internet...searching the internet is refusing to go throught the intellectual process of actually understanding the game mechanic yourself. Some days in old EQ I died 20 times, and I still make over 10 AAs these days, way back in early 2003, when I was still playing EQ. 20 deaths without a rez would have meant losing like 4 levels, but with rez it was losing a yellow, which is a joke considering that each AA is also a yellow. Haha, at peaks moment, I refuse rez because they would have made me OOM and I was earning XP faster anyway than I could lose, at PEAKS moments only, still...Understanding YOURSELF, with the tools you have, THAT is using your brain...reading FoH website...errr...that is killing everything between your ears!
In some groups I was main puller and chain pulling, main CC, main DPS, main slower, and it was FUN. I like been the shining star and figure new way to face the challenges in a game. I ain't exactly a pocket chanter some peoples would expect from a chanter having half the hps of any other group member because I didn't raid, and I honestly won't sit by. Not my type, I am a hero, I am a shining beacon, I am a star...or I try to at least! Peoples are welcome to group and join the fun, and I will accept to share some duties, reluctantly somedays however, depend on the mood. Pocket chanters are sweet and kinds and they often site on twice the hps I have, however, I don't envy them, not 1 single moment. Often I hear: "Please sit back and handle CC and buffs", somedays I may do it...depend on my mood, but I wouldn't count on that if I were you, I am far more likely to go open that door and run back behind the group and/or kite while I will mez/charm the adds, then proceed with AE tash and follow with slow! Clerics better be alerts! Noobs may perish! And if the mobs are stunnable and we have a wizard, I may very well bring 10-15 mobs despite the fact there are no other AE stunner and get the wizard in a happy nuking mood...first and foremost, the game has to be FUN. Careful snail progressers doesn't exactly enjoy my presence, but again, EQ was so harsh that the alternative was to wait...so I convert a few one to a more daredevil type of group. Harsh penalties may remove most risk from the game.
In another message I read that someone dislike ZONING but enjoys meditating? WTF, gimme zoning, I can cope with that, it is a lesser evil, medding? ROFL, I can cope with that, but it is definitely boring and draining away from the game. I was doing something else while my toon was meditating, if I play another game while I play your game, doesn't that mean that YOU fail? If to be entertained, I have to play another game at the SAME time, rofl, isn't that the WORST possible insult I can do to a designer?
And some peoples put a LOT of focus on CHALLENGE, personnally I like challenges, a LOT. If there is none, I will find some by doing something harder, that wasn't intended, that lowbies might think is stupid or rash, and often they are right, but sometimes it turns out that I UNDERSTAND and learn more about the game by succeeding at something new. But challenge is a side aspect, an addition, not the reason someone play a RPG. Someone who play a RPG is achieving, progressing, developping...challenges are welcome, but secondaries.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
We don't need another. Having to research things online etc forced one to use ones BRAIN! I like having to work for things, there is nothing wrong with it.
Errr, I think I use my brain more when I TRY something, then when I read on FoH forums. When I SOLO a rune (for a level 65 spell) on my own and figure a place to camp them, I was happy...and someone couldn't have read that on the net and benefit from it long enough before they "nerf it".
Either way, personnally I find the XP penalty in EQ to be laughable. Yet, it seems to be killing the casuals, I hardly see what it brings. I will run ahead and try something impossible, XP penalty or not. I will use my brain FAR more than if I would search the internet...searching the internet is refusing to go throught the intellectual process of actually understanding the game mechanic yourself. Some days in old EQ I died 20 times, and I still make over 10 AAs these days, way back in early 2003, when I was still playing EQ. 20 deaths without a rez would have meant losing like 4 levels, but with rez it was losing a yellow, which is a joke considering that each AA is also a yellow. Haha, at peaks moment, I refuse rez because they would have made me OOM and I was earning XP faster anyway than I could lose, at PEAKS moments only, still...Understanding YOURSELF, with the tools you have, THAT is using your brain...reading FoH website...errr...that is killing everything between your ears!
In another message I read that someone dislike ZONING but enjoys meditating? WTF, gimme zoning, I can cope with that, it is a lesser evil, medding? ROFL, I can cope with that, but it is definitely boring and draining away from the game. I was doing something else while my toon was meditating, if I play another game while I play your game, doesn't that mean that YOU fail? If to be entertained, I have to play another game at the SAME time, rofl, isn't that the WORST possible insult I can do to a designer?
And some peoples put a LOT of focus on CHALLENGE, personnally I like challenges, a LOT. If there is none, I will find some by doing something harder, that wasn't intended, that lowbies might think is stupid or rash, and often they are right, but sometimes it turns out that I UNDERSTAND and learn more about the game by succeeding at something new. But challenge is a side aspect, an addition, not the reason someone play a RPG. Someone who play a RPG is achieving, progressing, developping...challenges are welcome, but secondaries.
Most of what you are saying is subjective and HEAVILY player dependant!
Originally posted by Sharkypal Most of what you are saying is subjective and HEAVILY player dependant!
Most of what have been posted by ANYONE is subjective as well. As to player dependant, I don't know what you mean.
Reading on the net doesn't make your brain work much, when compare to actually TRYING and figuring out yourself. FoH was leading the way because they THINK and FIGURE it, despite all their evilness. Most of FoH never care about the XP penalty, no matter what they may say, their ACTIONS is what have to be judged. (the sheeps in FoH may have care, but they are sheeps, and they follow leaders who don't)
For someone to be able to READ on the net, someone must have thinked before and figured it. FoH was TRYING, it was THINKING, it was FINDING it, they where not spending all their time reading AL website and waiting for AL to figure it out for them. FoH was pissed beyond comon sense when AL, LoS or LoS beat them to something, because they where not bright enought to figure it out first. I suspect that it goes sooo far as that Brad put some challenges with no existing solutions to his knowledge, and FoH find some. Which is why he listen so much to them. Which is also a critical mistake from him. As FoH is not representative of many players and as they display often, they don't care for other players, which is a main consideration for someone who is listening to them...a consideration Brad fails to take into account.*
Luckily for me, this is where any comparaison to me would stop with FoH, and I have no shame in admiting that MANY of them are a hell lot better than me at these, yet, not most of them! Most of FoH where sheeps, following their leaders, never thinking by themselves, just as in any uberguild. You can't have many thinking in a big group, just like in a company, you have maybe 10 designers and then a hundred of programmers/artists.
*Funny thing is: Brad thinks he can create a better hardcore-raiding experience than FoH...which is quite arrogant that he even assume he would. He is welcome to try; but...if someone would want to wage, I would wage on FoH about raiding hardcoreness content, not on Brad. He shouldn't restrain from trying, however he should add other arrows, not rely only on this unlikely one. Fighting FoH on the raiding level...err...well, good luck! Because FoH, the leaders, not the sheeps, they are against you, as we speak, with a competitor. Very sweet of them, ain't it?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Sharkypal I enjoy travelling because it gives me the feeling that I am in the game world. I don't want to zone everywhere, its lame.
I agree that traveling somewhere new - exploring somewhere you have never been is fun.
At the same time if a friend logs in and asks me to help with something I dont want to spend 15 minutes travelling to where they are - because collectively we would have wasted 30 minutes we never get back.
Its all relative to how much time you have, and what your goal is. If you only have an hour, and your goal is exploring then wandering around is the goal, so its not a timesink. On the other hand if you only have an hour, and you just wasted 20 minutes going back somewhere you have been then its a timesink and a pain, as you just spent 1/3 of your available time achieving nothing.
I enjoy travelling because it gives me the feeling that I am in the game world. I don't want to zone everywhere, its lame.
I agree that traveling somewhere new - exploring somewhere you have never been is fun.
At the same time if a friend logs in and asks me to help with something I dont want to spend 15 minutes travelling to where they are - because collectively we would have wasted 30 minutes we never get back.
Its all relative to how much time you have, and what your goal is. If you only have an hour, and your goal is exploring then wandering around is the goal, so its not a timesink. On the other hand if you only have an hour, and you just wasted 20 minutes going back somewhere you have been then its a timesink and a pain, as you just spent 1/3 of your available time achieving nothing.
This is a little like if tax income would be a static $10 000 to every US citizen, regardless of their income...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I enjoy travelling because it gives me the feeling that I am in the game world. I don't want to zone everywhere, its lame.
I agree that traveling somewhere new - exploring somewhere you have never been is fun.
At the same time if a friend logs in and asks me to help with something I dont want to spend 15 minutes travelling to where they are - because collectively we would have wasted 30 minutes we never get back.
Its all relative to how much time you have, and what your goal is. If you only have an hour, and your goal is exploring then wandering around is the goal, so its not a timesink. On the other hand if you only have an hour, and you just wasted 20 minutes going back somewhere you have been then its a timesink and a pain, as you just spent 1/3 of your available time achieving nothing.
This is a little like if tax income would be a static $10 000 to every US citizen, regardless of their income...
CoX are my mains MMOs atm. (City of Villains and City of Heroes) I never really enjoy superheroes, but I really like their design! City of Villains is significantly better than City of Heroes, although they share MOST aspects in comon, the slight differences actually improve the game a lot.
Before, it was EQ, way back, in early 2003 (all the way to 1999, with some breaks, was subscribing about half the time), where I revolt against raiding, once and for all. I have played more than 1 year online my main toon, so I am quite used to downtime...and to playing another game at the same time I play EQ. (ain't consoles wonderful?)
You?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Not everyone is looking for the same thing in MMOs. I'm impressed Brad and the rest of Sigil aren't carpetbombing the customer base for higher raw profits - as I've seen soo many others do in this market. Of course, I'm biased here, as we(Sigil, myself and other like mindeds) share a similiar idea of what a fun and enjoyable game is.
I'll give you the point that finding groups in EQ1 was a pain(moreso as meek as I was at the time). However, it's a fault in human behavior - uou can hardly blame a developer for that. It is like blaming an automobile manufacturer for carjacking.
As for Downtime, I couldn't disagree more. I've encountered some of the most enjoyable adventuring companions because I've gotten a chance to actually talk to them and form bonds. I could still probably give you a full guild roster of both of the guilds I attended during my time in EQ1. Thanks to the habits I developed then I was actually able to meet and develope a great guild of PEOPLE in WoW (which I never thought possible given the relative maturity expectation of that game). It's also probably the only Alliance guild on Staghelm you'll get flamed to hades for disrespecting on the forums.
Lastly, for Nostalgia;
All I'm hoping for in Vangard is a game I can get caught up in like I did with EQ1(although that virginity comment was pretty spot on I think). From the fun of the Trainstation - I mean - Blackburrow to the 'Dances with Giants' (good ol' Rathe), to losing myself in the crystal caverns for weeks(like one would with a good book), or never having taken my chanter to Guk in his 60 levels due to horror stories, to crafting golden ornate armor for a friend(which consquently made them famous throughout the server).... Good Lord, I could go on for hours... In short, no other MMO has ever given me soo many fond and vivid memories. Like many others, I'm sure, are hoping that Brad and crew are able to recreate the 'magic' that was shattered after SoE(ironic).
Oh! and I can't leave out the hours I spent getting drunk, going fishing and just.. simply.. talking to people...
Yep, 100% agreed. I had some of the best times on the Boat trip from FP to Kaladim and then to Kunark, just chatting away with people and discussing our adventures past and present. There has never been a game that matches EQ for immersion. You could totally lose yourself in it for days at a time. The locations were many and varied and travelling actually felt like travelling. I know some people don't care for these aspects of MMOs but thankfully for them there are plenty of games out there to suit the way they like to play. Im hoping Vanguard will be the first MMO since EQ to be a little more time consuming and a little more challenging.
Just my opinion garnered from reading about the game of course, both pro and con.
I think this will be a good niche game. It will get a nice following, but I don't think Blizzard needs to think about doing any server merges. Still those who reminisce over the early days of EQ should love it.I expect to see it slammed bad in open beta though, I think a lot of people are going in with the wrong or too high of expectations. Those who enter with an open mind and realistic expectations should enjoy themselves. The players who want non stop instant action and having their hands held through each step of a quest will be screaming POS, mark my words.
Just my opinion garnered from reading about the game of course, both pro and con. I think this will be a good niche game. It will get a nice following, but I don't think Blizzard needs to think about doing any server merges. Still those who reminisce over the early days of EQ should love it.I expect to see it slammed bad in open beta though, I think a lot of people are going in with the wrong or too high of expectations. Those who enter with an open mind and realistic expectations should enjoy themselves. The players who want non stop instant action and having their hands held through each step of a quest will be screaming POS, mark my words.
I have no doubt the whiners will be around in droves in the beginning. Provided Sigil stay true to their guns, most of them will go back to what they were doing before and in some cases, some of them might actually make an effort to enjoy Vanguard. There is already whining going on in the official forums and the "shout channel" in game is filled with idiots complaining and trying to compare it to WoW (asking why it isn't more like WoW). WoW may have done great things for the casual MMO player but I have to say I cannot stand it. First off, it was the main reason SWG got destroyed (I know that was never Blizzards intention, but it happened nonetheless). Now we have all these people who think WoW is the template for all MMOs. This is simply not the case. Variety is the spice of life after all.
And the bottom line is this...you can argue all day about whether "time-sinks" are good or not. I think we have reached a point in society where instant gratification is the way to go or forget about it! MMO's started out to be about 'living' in a game world..When Ultima Online came out..it was cool to get in and have a JOB..chopping wood way out in the forest and hoping to get back and sell it before someone murders you was exciting! It wasn't seen as a time sink..just surviving one day at a time in a world that's constantly going on whether you are there or not.
Someone said..."well failing at my goal is bad enough, I don't need to die"..LOL..Well what other way in an MMO...where COMBAT is concerned..is there a way to signify 'failing at your goal' OTHER THAN dieing?????? HUH?! What do you want some message when a mob is about to kill you, flashing on the screen saying "Now at this point you would have died...but since you realize this and realized you would have failed..you are not going to die...JUST as long you know that it WOULD have happened...so there...I guess we showed you!" LOL It's like some of you people don't even have a set anymore.."I don't wanna die".."I don't want my armor to be damaged"..."I don't want to lose experience"..basically what you are saying is 'I don't want to have to feel ANY negative emotion at all while I play'.
On one hand I can KIND of see your point..after all, its a game...why should you feel anything other than bliss for the length that you are playing? Why should it feel like you are clocking in for work when you play? Don't get me wrong...dieing THEN doing a Corpse Run can piss ya off, no doubt..but let me ask this...To those that consider mechanics like this a time sink..Why even play any MMO that has combat in it without any consequences? In WoW, you die..then you are spirited back to life by either paying a Toll or traveling back to where you died...Why even have the 2nd option? lol No one uses it, they'd rather pay not to have to go back to their old body. So all you are really left with is paying a toll..well with that said, the question becomes..Why even have that? Is that acceptable enough as a penalty to where it doesn't hurt your feelings as bad? When I died in EQ1...which was COUNTLESS TIMES LOL..I was a non-twink Enchanter (people who played will know what I mean)...It infuriated me sometimes...but it made me more determined when I buffed back up and was ready to go again even more focused that last time.
It seems as if we have come to a point where the easy way out spawns a problem in groups as well...Too many times I have played a game where you die and pay a toll and was ready to get back to it..but because the rest of the group got wiped, most were in this "well since im ok now and we are outside, Im too lazy to go back to it..gonna go do something else for now" phase. That was the morbid beauty of a corpse run..and also having a cleric that was alive and could rezz lol..cause once you got back to your corpse and looted your stuff..very few times did people want to just up and quit..its like "Well we are back now..lets kick its ass first then decide what we want to do."
Someone else asked "Why are people flaming on WoW or saying a game has been WoW'd?" When EQ1 came out people complained about losing experience when they died...Then comes DAOC where you still died but you didn't lose any more experience past the last little blue dot that you last earned (10 blue dots=new level)..Then came a slew of games in between that tried to do little things to appease the 'I dont want to really die' crowd..Then comes WoW and EQ2..there stance on it was quite simple..you died..but dieing is (and this is a quote) "more of an annoyance" than a penalty......LOL...so we are down to just making you slightly "annoyed" now?? We've come that far to appeasing as many players as we can get our hands on that we don't want to risk doing ANYTHING that might make them mad. Sorry but I come from a background that states "Mad? So what!!!..The world ain't gonna stop turning because you're mad..go play something else!"
Finally, the whole irony of it is what cracks me up...You got people running around looking like awesome beasts..frick'n Tauren Hunters...Barbarian Guardians...huge tanks...tough as nailzzzzzzzzz...OH, but wait!!! "Im tough looking and Im a brute and ain't scared of nothing...I just don't want to die and pay a mean penalty pleazzze..okaaaaay?" lol
Comments
I think all those poor souls looking to get the old feeling back from the EQ days will be sorely disappointed. EQ was EQ, Vanguard is Vanguard. Actually, even if Vanguard was EQ, I doubt they'd get the same feeling. You can only lose your virginity once, or something along those lines.
As far as the gaming remaining sooper dooper hardcore? Doubtful. Once Sigil sells it off to SOE, expect some hefty changes. NGE: Vanguard edition.
Im not looking for EQ! Im looking for Vanguard! I doubt it will be sold off to SOE TBH, and if it is, Conan looks promising. It doesn't need to be "super, duper hardcore" but it is shaping up to be a more elaborate venture than any of the other MMOs out there. As for capturing the "feeling" of EQ, there have been several times since I've been playing Vanguard where I have definitely experienced that old "feeling"
S
Its really sad that most of the devs today think that to make decent cash you have to follow that poor excuse for a game WoW. What they fail to realize is that the Original eq had a pretty good following, and most of em werent just there for lack of games to play. Lots of people were there because they liked playing a challenging game. A good part of the people i talked to in my month fiasco into wow were just there till something else came along.
Im not going to go so far as to say that WoW will take a substantial income hit due to vanguard, but then again i think they will loose quite a few that are just there for lack of something better. If Vanguard delivers half of what it claims without all the waterd down as stated b4 TRAINING wheel game. they will proly pull most of the hard cores from lots of the other games. including EQ2 and lots of pple that still just ramble around eq1 these days.
Im not saying that Vanguard will be the messiah of MMORPGs but a lil depth and challenge never hurts anyone. Lets just hope that he dosnt sell out like eq. Lets hope sony dosnt pressure them into doing something stupid by tring to drag in all of wows customers. Lets cross our fingers that they stay true to the game design and not water it down for the masses. I can only hope.
if they start to go the way of the wow all mighty dollar greedy klfjdsl;kjfdaskl;jflsda!!! I guess ill just have to make my own MMORPG lol the only other prospect i see after this is this dosnt work are maby AOC and WO. I really havent saw many upcomming games in the next few years.
Hopefully (and Im not sure they have at all) SOE has learned that "WoWifying" games doesn't necessarily make them prosperous. Case in point SWG. That was a successful game with a loyal following. After it's "Wowification" it has very few players at all. There is a market out there for the games that appeal to the dedicated player and it's wide open right now. It may not be 7 million strong, but if I wanted a chat client with Smurfy graphics, I can customize my Live Messenger frames thank you very much
S
PS : Sadly, it appears as though EQ2 is going down the "WoWification" route as well.
The Vanguard chorus is so vague in their replies. . . All I got from reading a ton of posts is that you guys want to not have the game "WoW ified", which I assume means that you want all the timesinks in Vanguard, and that you don't want to be able to find quests without seeking online guides like people do for both EQ and EQ 2. Add in a spice of contempt for people who don't find timesinks challenging and instead seek games that are challenging in difficulty instead of merely time-consuming and that's all I'm getting from the later part of this thread.
I'm reading between the lines on a lot of this, so correct me if I didn't interpret the vague comments well.
Here's the thing. I didn't reply to this thread to say that Vanguard needs to be made into an accessible game. I agree that there may be a place in the MMO-industry for a hardcore game. I wanted to talk about grouping vs. solo with one poster and about how there is a difference between hardcore gamers in that they seem to desire timesinks and mainstream gamers who don't like timesinks. That's not an attack on Vanguard as a game or my stating that they should make it accessible. I'm not sure how these comments got interpreted this way.
Yes, I want "timesinks", death penalties etc. They are important! They allow for socialising and discussing encounters. I hate the way you can do instances in EQ2 for example. Go into a raid with repair kits and you can spam it until you get through it. Consequences make the game more immersive. They tend to make you far more careful and force you to think things through. There are enough "carebear", "training wheel" MMOs out there. We don't need another. Having to research things online etc forced one to use ones BRAIN! I like having to work for things, there is nothing wrong with it. EQ was a great game when it first appeared because you could get on the boat from FP to Kaladim and have a chat with the other passengers. Yes, it took time, but ultimately through conversations you build up friendships and alliances and you can also gleen tons of useful info. It feels like you are part of a world.
S
Timesinks & Socializing - You focused on a death penalty, but timesinks are a lot of things. Travel times that keep you from grouping quickly, group dependency that can make you progress slowly or not at all without a group, and repetitive content for uber drops are all part of this. Your argument is that they increase socializing and the requirement for strategy. I am a voice-chat only player, so I socialize even in MMOs that don't have timesinks. Typing in groups seems antiquated to me, but I've done it before and I can see how this would be needed for the slow pace of play and socializing that you get with groups that don't utilize voice-chat. That's a fair point for that type of player, I guess. For me, socializing doesn't require timesinks.
Harsh Death Penalties - Well, I don't like harsh death penalties because failing at my goal is enough punishment for me and I think that harsh death penalties lead to people playing cautiously and not taking chances. Sure, I can read a guide and/or get the perfect group to take on an encounter, but I'd much rather play it as "try and die". Maybe I'll die the first three times that I attempt to run an instance, but at least I get to learn it on my own instead of relying on online guides or more experienced players because I don't want to lose hours of character advancement because the game has harsh death penalties. Also, I find that harsh death penalties lead to easy content. EQ was an extremely easy game if you just looked at what was required to be successful on an adventure before attempting it, and because content was often difficult to find, nearly everyone who played it would look at guides when questing and not just grinding out xp.
"Carebear" and "Training Wheel" games - That's something I read a bunch from people. Is the intent just to be inflammatory or do you really think that enduring more tedium makes a game more challenging? I like games that are challenging, but maybe challenging means something else to you than it does to me? I find a challenging game should test my skill and mastery of the game. A game that is more time-consuming isn't harder. . . it's just more time-consuming. Challenge is about creating difficult content, and as I said before, the challenge is usually removed when you add in harsh death penalties.
Timesinks & Socializing - You focused on a death penalty, but timesinks are a lot of things. Travel times that keep you from grouping quickly, group dependency that can make you progress slowly or not at all without a group, and repetitive content for uber drops are all part of this. Your argument is that they increase socializing and the requirement for strategy. I am a voice-chat only player, so I socialize even in MMOs that don't have timesinks. Typing in groups seems antiquated to me, but I've done it before and I can see how this would be needed for the slow pace of play and socializing that you get with groups that don't utilize voice-chat. That's a fair point for that type of player, I guess. For me, socializing doesn't require timesinks.
Harsh Death Penalties - Well, I don't like harsh death penalties because failing at my goal is enough punishment for me and I think that harsh death penalties lead to people playing cautiously and not taking chances. Sure, I can read a guide and/or get the perfect group to take on an encounter, but I'd much rather play it as "try and die". Maybe I'll die the first three times that I attempt to run an instance, but at least I get to learn it on my own instead of relying on online guides or more experienced players because I don't want to lose hours of character advancement because the game has harsh death penalties. Also, I find that harsh death penalties lead to easy content. EQ was an extremely easy game if you just looked at what was required to be successful on an adventure before attempting it, and because content was often difficult to find, nearly everyone who played it would look at guides when questing and not just grinding out xp.
"Carebear" and "Training Wheel" games - That's something I read a bunch from people. Is the intent just to be inflammatory or do you really think that enduring more tedium makes a game more challenging? I like games that are challenging, but maybe challenging means something else to you than it does to me? I find a challenging game should test my skill and mastery of the game. A game that is more time-consuming isn't harder. . . it's just more time-consuming. Challenge is about creating difficult content, and as I said before, the challenge is usually removed when you add in harsh death penalties.
Challenge does not necessarily mean tedium. It is a pain in the ass to lose experience, but shouldn't you get some form of penalty for being a dumbass and fighting in an area that is too dangerous for you? Or perhaps you would rather play in a game where it's never too dangerous for you?
I don't want my next MMORPG to be as easy as WoW. I want it to be challenging. Can you define a way to make content more challenging without adding timesinks or tedium? I'll save you the tedium, there aren't. Any single way to make things harder I can logically translate it to a timesink. Time does equal challenge, it's about getting rid of the tedium.
Anyway, Vangaurds death penalty is going to be harsher than WoW. But let's face it, what in the hell isn't??
Timesinks & Socializing - You focused on a death penalty, but timesinks are a lot of things. Travel times that keep you from grouping quickly, group dependency that can make you progress slowly or not at all without a group, and repetitive content for uber drops are all part of this. Your argument is that they increase socializing and the requirement for strategy. I am a voice-chat only player, so I socialize even in MMOs that don't have timesinks. Typing in groups seems antiquated to me, but I've done it before and I can see how this would be needed for the slow pace of play and socializing that you get with groups that don't utilize voice-chat. That's a fair point for that type of player, I guess. For me, socializing doesn't require timesinks.
Harsh Death Penalties - Well, I don't like harsh death penalties because failing at my goal is enough punishment for me and I think that harsh death penalties lead to people playing cautiously and not taking chances. Sure, I can read a guide and/or get the perfect group to take on an encounter, but I'd much rather play it as "try and die". Maybe I'll die the first three times that I attempt to run an instance, but at least I get to learn it on my own instead of relying on online guides or more experienced players because I don't want to lose hours of character advancement because the game has harsh death penalties. Also, I find that harsh death penalties lead to easy content. EQ was an extremely easy game if you just looked at what was required to be successful on an adventure before attempting it, and because content was often difficult to find, nearly everyone who played it would look at guides when questing and not just grinding out xp.
"Carebear" and "Training Wheel" games - That's something I read a bunch from people. Is the intent just to be inflammatory or do you really think that enduring more tedium makes a game more challenging? I like games that are challenging, but maybe challenging means something else to you than it does to me? I find a challenging game should test my skill and mastery of the game. A game that is more time-consuming isn't harder. . . it's just more time-consuming. Challenge is about creating difficult content, and as I said before, the challenge is usually removed when you add in harsh death penalties.
Well, we dont agree on much. I enjoy travelling because it gives me the feeling that I am in the game world. I don't want to zone everywhere, its lame. Provided there are things to see and do along the way I am much happier travelling. It was one of the great things about EQ. I remember falling off the boat into shark infested waters and having to swim to shore while avoiding the Sharks and other underwater nasties. Time consuming is a result of the game being more challenging. A lot of people don't understand this. For example, travelling in EQ was very dangerous because you had to move through dangerous zones and it was a constant challenge to navigate them. The result is that things take exponentially longer than they do in other games. As for voice chat, I do when I am raiding etc but sometimes I don't want to be on TS or there is no reason to be. I am in total disagreement with your comments on socializing. The doctor lines in SWG are one of the best examples of how "timesinks" promote social behaviour.
Finally, "Carebear" and "Training wheel" MMOs are very apt descriptions IMHO. They very accurately describe that type of MMO. I don't think they are meant to be inflammatory at all. I think MOST casual gamers recognize the fact that they are casual gamers. My objections lie with the people who show up demanding that a game be changed to suit their play style. As I said before, if you don't like something, you quite simply cancel your subscription and move on (not you personally). SWG was ruined by this. Everyone was angry they couldn't be a Jedi in 10 minutes and the result is a dead game. I think Vanguard is being aimed at the more dedicated player and I think thats a good thing. We should get at least one game. I'm enjoying it a lot and playing about 8 hours a day. I don't know if Vanguard will be a game for you. Best way to find out is to join the open Beta and check it out for yourself!
Errr, I think I use my brain more when I TRY something, then when I read on FoH forums. When I SOLO a rune (for a level 65 spell) on my own and figure a place to camp them, I was happy...and someone couldn't have read that on the net and benefit from it long enough before they "nerf it".
Either way, personnally I find the XP penalty in EQ to be laughable. Yet, it seems to be killing the casuals, I hardly see what it brings. I will run ahead and try something impossible, XP penalty or not. I will use my brain FAR more than if I would search the internet...searching the internet is refusing to go throught the intellectual process of actually understanding the game mechanic yourself. Some days in old EQ I died 20 times, and I still make over 10 AAs these days, way back in early 2003, when I was still playing EQ. 20 deaths without a rez would have meant losing like 4 levels, but with rez it was losing a yellow, which is a joke considering that each AA is also a yellow. Haha, at peaks moment, I refuse rez because they would have made me OOM and I was earning XP faster anyway than I could lose, at PEAKS moments only, still...Understanding YOURSELF, with the tools you have, THAT is using your brain...reading FoH website...errr...that is killing everything between your ears!
In some groups I was main puller and chain pulling, main CC, main DPS, main slower, and it was FUN. I like been the shining star and figure new way to face the challenges in a game. I ain't exactly a pocket chanter some peoples would expect from a chanter having half the hps of any other group member because I didn't raid, and I honestly won't sit by. Not my type, I am a hero, I am a shining beacon, I am a star...or I try to at least! Peoples are welcome to group and join the fun, and I will accept to share some duties, reluctantly somedays however, depend on the mood. Pocket chanters are sweet and kinds and they often site on twice the hps I have, however, I don't envy them, not 1 single moment. Often I hear: "Please sit back and handle CC and buffs", somedays I may do it...depend on my mood, but I wouldn't count on that if I were you, I am far more likely to go open that door and run back behind the group and/or kite while I will mez/charm the adds, then proceed with AE tash and follow with slow! Clerics better be alerts! Noobs may perish! And if the mobs are stunnable and we have a wizard, I may very well bring 10-15 mobs despite the fact there are no other AE stunner and get the wizard in a happy nuking mood...first and foremost, the game has to be FUN. Careful snail progressers doesn't exactly enjoy my presence, but again, EQ was so harsh that the alternative was to wait...so I convert a few one to a more daredevil type of group. Harsh penalties may remove most risk from the game.
In another message I read that someone dislike ZONING but enjoys meditating? WTF, gimme zoning, I can cope with that, it is a lesser evil, medding? ROFL, I can cope with that, but it is definitely boring and draining away from the game. I was doing something else while my toon was meditating, if I play another game while I play your game, doesn't that mean that YOU fail? If to be entertained, I have to play another game at the SAME time, rofl, isn't that the WORST possible insult I can do to a designer?
And some peoples put a LOT of focus on CHALLENGE, personnally I like challenges, a LOT. If there is none, I will find some by doing something harder, that wasn't intended, that lowbies might think is stupid or rash, and often they are right, but sometimes it turns out that I UNDERSTAND and learn more about the game by succeeding at something new. But challenge is a side aspect, an addition, not the reason someone play a RPG. Someone who play a RPG is achieving, progressing, developping...challenges are welcome, but secondaries.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Errr, I think I use my brain more when I TRY something, then when I read on FoH forums. When I SOLO a rune (for a level 65 spell) on my own and figure a place to camp them, I was happy...and someone couldn't have read that on the net and benefit from it long enough before they "nerf it".
Either way, personnally I find the XP penalty in EQ to be laughable. Yet, it seems to be killing the casuals, I hardly see what it brings. I will run ahead and try something impossible, XP penalty or not. I will use my brain FAR more than if I would search the internet...searching the internet is refusing to go throught the intellectual process of actually understanding the game mechanic yourself. Some days in old EQ I died 20 times, and I still make over 10 AAs these days, way back in early 2003, when I was still playing EQ. 20 deaths without a rez would have meant losing like 4 levels, but with rez it was losing a yellow, which is a joke considering that each AA is also a yellow. Haha, at peaks moment, I refuse rez because they would have made me OOM and I was earning XP faster anyway than I could lose, at PEAKS moments only, still...Understanding YOURSELF, with the tools you have, THAT is using your brain...reading FoH website...errr...that is killing everything between your ears!
In another message I read that someone dislike ZONING but enjoys meditating? WTF, gimme zoning, I can cope with that, it is a lesser evil, medding? ROFL, I can cope with that, but it is definitely boring and draining away from the game. I was doing something else while my toon was meditating, if I play another game while I play your game, doesn't that mean that YOU fail? If to be entertained, I have to play another game at the SAME time, rofl, isn't that the WORST possible insult I can do to a designer?
And some peoples put a LOT of focus on CHALLENGE, personnally I like challenges, a LOT. If there is none, I will find some by doing something harder, that wasn't intended, that lowbies might think is stupid or rash, and often they are right, but sometimes it turns out that I UNDERSTAND and learn more about the game by succeeding at something new. But challenge is a side aspect, an addition, not the reason someone play a RPG. Someone who play a RPG is achieving, progressing, developping...challenges are welcome, but secondaries.
Most of what you are saying is subjective and HEAVILY player dependant!
Most of what have been posted by ANYONE is subjective as well. As to player dependant, I don't know what you mean.
Reading on the net doesn't make your brain work much, when compare to actually TRYING and figuring out yourself. FoH was leading the way because they THINK and FIGURE it, despite all their evilness. Most of FoH never care about the XP penalty, no matter what they may say, their ACTIONS is what have to be judged. (the sheeps in FoH may have care, but they are sheeps, and they follow leaders who don't)
For someone to be able to READ on the net, someone must have thinked before and figured it. FoH was TRYING, it was THINKING, it was FINDING it, they where not spending all their time reading AL website and waiting for AL to figure it out for them. FoH was pissed beyond comon sense when AL, LoS or LoS beat them to something, because they where not bright enought to figure it out first. I suspect that it goes sooo far as that Brad put some challenges with no existing solutions to his knowledge, and FoH find some. Which is why he listen so much to them. Which is also a critical mistake from him. As FoH is not representative of many players and as they display often, they don't care for other players, which is a main consideration for someone who is listening to them...a consideration Brad fails to take into account.*
Luckily for me, this is where any comparaison to me would stop with FoH, and I have no shame in admiting that MANY of them are a hell lot better than me at these, yet, not most of them!
Most of FoH where sheeps, following their leaders, never thinking by themselves, just as in any uberguild. You can't have many thinking in a big group, just like in a company, you have maybe 10 designers and then a hundred of programmers/artists.
*Funny thing is: Brad thinks he can create a better hardcore-raiding experience than FoH...which is quite arrogant that he even assume he would. He is welcome to try; but...if someone would want to wage, I would wage on FoH about raiding hardcoreness content, not on Brad. He shouldn't restrain from trying, however he should add other arrows, not rely only on this unlikely one. Fighting FoH on the raiding level...err...well, good luck! Because FoH, the leaders, not the sheeps, they are against you, as we speak, with a competitor. Very sweet of them, ain't it?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I agree that traveling somewhere new - exploring somewhere you have never been is fun.
At the same time if a friend logs in and asks me to help with something I dont want to spend 15 minutes travelling to where they are - because collectively we would have wasted 30 minutes we never get back.
Its all relative to how much time you have, and what your goal is. If you only have an hour, and your goal is exploring then wandering around is the goal, so its not a timesink. On the other hand if you only have an hour, and you just wasted 20 minutes going back somewhere you have been then its a timesink and a pain, as you just spent 1/3 of your available time achieving nothing.
I agree that traveling somewhere new - exploring somewhere you have never been is fun.
At the same time if a friend logs in and asks me to help with something I dont want to spend 15 minutes travelling to where they are - because collectively we would have wasted 30 minutes we never get back.
Its all relative to how much time you have, and what your goal is. If you only have an hour, and your goal is exploring then wandering around is the goal, so its not a timesink. On the other hand if you only have an hour, and you just wasted 20 minutes going back somewhere you have been then its a timesink and a pain, as you just spent 1/3 of your available time achieving nothing.
This is a little like if tax income would be a static $10 000 to every US citizen, regardless of their income...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You've taken one quote out of my total argument and focused on it. Reading on the web wasn't the major focus of what I was saying.
I agree that traveling somewhere new - exploring somewhere you have never been is fun.
At the same time if a friend logs in and asks me to help with something I dont want to spend 15 minutes travelling to where they are - because collectively we would have wasted 30 minutes we never get back.
Its all relative to how much time you have, and what your goal is. If you only have an hour, and your goal is exploring then wandering around is the goal, so its not a timesink. On the other hand if you only have an hour, and you just wasted 20 minutes going back somewhere you have been then its a timesink and a pain, as you just spent 1/3 of your available time achieving nothing.
This is a little like if tax income would be a static $10 000 to every US citizen, regardless of their income...
Just out of interest, what MMO do you play?
CoX are my mains MMOs atm. (City of Villains and City of Heroes) I never really enjoy superheroes, but I really like their design! City of Villains is significantly better than City of Heroes, although they share MOST aspects in comon, the slight differences actually improve the game a lot.
Before, it was EQ, way back, in early 2003 (all the way to 1999, with some breaks, was subscribing about half the time), where I revolt against raiding, once and for all.
I have played more than 1 year online my main toon, so I am quite used to downtime...and to playing another game at the same time I play EQ. (ain't consoles wonderful?)
You?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Vanguard beta and EQ2. I have to confess that I'm sick and tired of EQ2. It is deteriorating at an alarming rate
Used to play UO, EQ, DAoC, SWG.
"One man's trash is another man's treasure"
Not everyone is looking for the same thing in MMOs. I'm impressed Brad and the rest of Sigil aren't carpetbombing the customer base for higher raw profits - as I've seen soo many others do in this market. Of course, I'm biased here, as we(Sigil, myself and other like mindeds) share a similiar idea of what a fun and enjoyable game is.
I'll give you the point that finding groups in EQ1 was a pain(moreso as meek as I was at the time). However, it's a fault in human behavior - uou can hardly blame a developer for that. It is like blaming an automobile manufacturer for carjacking.
As for Downtime, I couldn't disagree more. I've encountered some of the most enjoyable adventuring companions because I've gotten a chance to actually talk to them and form bonds. I could still probably give you a full guild roster of both of the guilds I attended during my time in EQ1. Thanks to the habits I developed then I was actually able to meet and develope a great guild of PEOPLE in WoW (which I never thought possible given the relative maturity expectation of that game). It's also probably the only Alliance guild on Staghelm you'll get flamed to hades for disrespecting on the forums.
Lastly, for Nostalgia;
All I'm hoping for in Vangard is a game I can get caught up in like I did with EQ1(although that virginity comment was pretty spot on I think). From the fun of the Trainstation - I mean - Blackburrow to the 'Dances with Giants' (good ol' Rathe), to losing myself in the crystal caverns for weeks(like one would with a good book), or never having taken my chanter to Guk in his 60 levels due to horror stories, to crafting golden ornate armor for a friend(which consquently made them famous throughout the server).... Good Lord, I could go on for hours... In short, no other MMO has ever given me soo many fond and vivid memories. Like many others, I'm sure, are hoping that Brad and crew are able to recreate the 'magic' that was shattered after SoE(ironic).
Oh! and I can't leave out the hours I spent getting drunk, going fishing and just.. simply.. talking to people...
- Hold not your expectations.
Yep, 100% agreed. I had some of the best times on the Boat trip from FP to Kaladim and then to Kunark, just chatting away with people and discussing our adventures past and present. There has never been a game that matches EQ for immersion. You could totally lose yourself in it for days at a time. The locations were many and varied and travelling actually felt like travelling. I know some people don't care for these aspects of MMOs but thankfully for them there are plenty of games out there to suit the way they like to play. Im hoping Vanguard will be the first MMO since EQ to be a little more time consuming and a little more challenging.
Just my opinion garnered from reading about the game of course, both pro and con.
I think this will be a good niche game. It will get a nice following, but I don't think Blizzard needs to think about doing any server merges. Still those who reminisce over the early days of EQ should love it.I expect to see it slammed bad in open beta though, I think a lot of people are going in with the wrong or too high of expectations. Those who enter with an open mind and realistic expectations should enjoy themselves. The players who want non stop instant action and having their hands held through each step of a quest will be screaming POS, mark my words.
I miss DAoC
I have no doubt the whiners will be around in droves in the beginning. Provided Sigil stay true to their guns, most of them will go back to what they were doing before and in some cases, some of them might actually make an effort to enjoy Vanguard. There is already whining going on in the official forums and the "shout channel" in game is filled with idiots complaining and trying to compare it to WoW (asking why it isn't more like WoW). WoW may have done great things for the casual MMO player but I have to say I cannot stand it. First off, it was the main reason SWG got destroyed (I know that was never Blizzards intention, but it happened nonetheless). Now we have all these people who think WoW is the template for all MMOs. This is simply not the case. Variety is the spice of life after all.
oh I believe you on that one!!!
And the bottom line is this...you can argue all day about whether "time-sinks" are good or not. I think we have reached a point in society where instant gratification is the way to go or forget about it! MMO's started out to be about 'living' in a game world..When Ultima Online came out..it was cool to get in and have a JOB..chopping wood way out in the forest and hoping to get back and sell it before someone murders you was exciting! It wasn't seen as a time sink..just surviving one day at a time in a world that's constantly going on whether you are there or not.
Someone said..."well failing at my goal is bad enough, I don't need to die"..LOL..Well what other way in an MMO...where COMBAT is concerned..is there a way to signify 'failing at your goal' OTHER THAN dieing?????? HUH?! What do you want some message when a mob is about to kill you, flashing on the screen saying "Now at this point you would have died...but since you realize this and realized you would have failed..you are not going to die...JUST as long you know that it WOULD have happened...so there...I guess we showed you!" LOL It's like some of you people don't even have a set anymore.."I don't wanna die".."I don't want my armor to be damaged"..."I don't want to lose experience"..basically what you are saying is 'I don't want to have to feel ANY negative emotion at all while I play'.
On one hand I can KIND of see your point..after all, its a game...why should you feel anything other than bliss for the length that you are playing? Why should it feel like you are clocking in for work when you play? Don't get me wrong...dieing THEN doing a Corpse Run can piss ya off, no doubt..but let me ask this...To those that consider mechanics like this a time sink..Why even play any MMO that has combat in it without any consequences? In WoW, you die..then you are spirited back to life by either paying a Toll or traveling back to where you died...Why even have the 2nd option? lol No one uses it, they'd rather pay not to have to go back to their old body. So all you are really left with is paying a toll..well with that said, the question becomes..Why even have that? Is that acceptable enough as a penalty to where it doesn't hurt your feelings as bad? When I died in EQ1...which was COUNTLESS TIMES LOL..I was a non-twink Enchanter (people who played will know what I mean)...It infuriated me sometimes...but it made me more determined when I buffed back up and was ready to go again even more focused that last time.
It seems as if we have come to a point where the easy way out spawns a problem in groups as well...Too many times I have played a game where you die and pay a toll and was ready to get back to it..but because the rest of the group got wiped, most were in this "well since im ok now and we are outside, Im too lazy to go back to it..gonna go do something else for now" phase. That was the morbid beauty of a corpse run..and also having a cleric that was alive and could rezz lol..cause once you got back to your corpse and looted your stuff..very few times did people want to just up and quit..its like "Well we are back now..lets kick its ass first then decide what we want to do."
Someone else asked "Why are people flaming on WoW or saying a game has been WoW'd?" When EQ1 came out people complained about losing experience when they died...Then comes DAOC where you still died but you didn't lose any more experience past the last little blue dot that you last earned (10 blue dots=new level)..Then came a slew of games in between that tried to do little things to appease the 'I dont want to really die' crowd..Then comes WoW and EQ2..there stance on it was quite simple..you died..but dieing is (and this is a quote) "more of an annoyance" than a penalty......LOL...so we are down to just making you slightly "annoyed" now?? We've come that far to appeasing as many players as we can get our hands on that we don't want to risk doing ANYTHING that might make them mad. Sorry but I come from a background that states "Mad? So what!!!..The world ain't gonna stop turning because you're mad..go play something else!"
Finally, the whole irony of it is what cracks me up...You got people running around looking like awesome beasts..frick'n Tauren Hunters...Barbarian Guardians...huge tanks...tough as nailzzzzzzzzz...OH, but wait!!! "Im tough looking and Im a brute and ain't scared of nothing...I just don't want to die and pay a mean penalty pleazzze..okaaaaay?" lol