Yea Wumi.. I hear you about crafting, but the same was true 3 months into the game (like 2 years ago). Fact is Blizz made crafting almost completely irrelevant to the end-game. Only herbalism has any real money-making potential. But, the new PVP patch really is not the bane of crafters... the entire game design is.
Crafting will not be a viable way to make money really until they make EVERY profession necessary to accomplish PvP and PvE goals. It looks a BIT like they might be moving this way in TBC, but really Blizz has never been big on crafting, and they don't look to be in the future either.
EDIT - And, let's not get TOO carried away with how "casual" you can be and still get rewards. On a double-honor weekend you are still doing good to get 1,000 honor/hour. So, even your basic weapon rewards will require over 22 HOURS of gameplay. That is just one weapon. The issue is not the time it will take you, but how and when you spend that time. instead of needing 40 people 6 hours on the SAME day, you can now run 5 people at any given 6 hours ANY time of the week. If people want to completely gear up in PvP stuff they are still looking to spend 100+ hours to do so.
First of all i WAS a harcore player... spent alot of time in WoW everyday... made several lvl 60s Only did random raids now and then call me a casual harcore player then. I did some PvP but lacked the interest to get the big grind and have all the respect to all who did make it all the way to the end THE OLD STYLE! Today any 9 yr old newbie can get same stuff within a week if he wanted to. But worst of all (for me) the free epix killed crafting. Who wants to buy crafted gear when you can get it for free. With all my chars i got alotta 300 skill crafting in allmost all crafting classes. Stocked up MATs for a year and its all useless now. All the time and efford wasted over a night. Same story was told when SOE killed crafting in SWG and see how that ended up. (And everything else in the game.. i know) I feel high end rewards/drops/gear in MMO are MEANT to be hard to get! Thats what so awesome about it. In SWG it took up to a year to become a jedi... it was "the carrot" most players where all hunting for and kept loggin on to get. The people that whined, and in the end, made the developers change the game to please. Was the casuals! I truly feel that if people dont wanna work for it... they dont deserve it! Theres room for all of us, but changing a game for the casual "1 hour a day"-gamer, ruins it for everyone else. Wumi - EU-Kazzak (Havnt been on since the free epix... but whats 1 guy with 5mill. players around *sigh*)
First of all, there is a general misconception about online games here.
A game is meant to be FUN. That is its primary purpose. I repeat: not WORK, but FUN. If you have fun because of the quests, the challenges you face while you level your character to lvl 60 (or 70), the diversity that PvP presents by throwing unknown enemies at you on the BG's - it does not really matter. As long as you have fun, the game is OK for you.
However, there is a conflict of interest here. Players want fun. Companies want income. So they invented time sinks and grind instead of coming up with creative ideas that entertain you in addition to offering a challenge.
Grind and raiding instances till your eyes bleed are NOT challenge. It's a time sink that was created to make you spend your money on the next month subscription. A dungeon may be fun until you figure out how to beat it. From that point it's nothing else but DKP grind, and ceaseless re-runs, unti everbody is geared well enough for the next instance levels.
If you want to get rewarded according to the time you spent in the game -why don't you play EVE? There you can increase your skill, even if you are offline.
You mentioned SWG. and Jedi as a big carrot for people. True it was a big carrot but why. Because - if you were not a crafter - all other parts of the game lacked content, and that was the only viable goal that drove people. And belive me, subscription numbers started to drop before they introduced the Combat Upgrade.
Unfortunately, designing time sinks like grinding and raiding for the slim chance that the boss will drop the item you want and you'll be lucky to have enough DKP or to roll the highest to get it requires much less creativity (and therefore it is much simpler and more cost-efficient) than desining fun, challenging - albeit difficult - ways of getting the same items.
I have not seen any statistics about the gaming habits of the 7 million WoW subscribers but I doubt that the hardcore gamers represent the majority. So Blizzard's logic will work this way... we will rather sacrifice 1 million hardcore gamers to retain 6 million casual gamers. If you have issues with that approach, blame it on them and not on the casual players who love this game as much as you, but have different ideas about having fun.
First of all i WAS a harcore player... spent alot of time in WoW everyday... made several lvl 60s Only did random raids now and then call me a casual harcore player then. I did some PvP but lacked the interest to get the big grind and have all the respect to all who did make it all the way to the end THE OLD STYLE! Today any 9 yr old newbie can get same stuff within a week if he wanted to. But worst of all (for me) the free epix killed crafting. Who wants to buy crafted gear when you can get it for free. With all my chars i got alotta 300 skill crafting in allmost all crafting classes. Stocked up MATs for a year and its all useless now. All the time and efford wasted over a night. Same story was told when SOE killed crafting in SWG and see how that ended up. (And everything else in the game.. i know) I feel high end rewards/drops/gear in MMO are MEANT to be hard to get! Thats what so awesome about it. In SWG it took up to a year to become a jedi... it was "the carrot" most players where all hunting for and kept loggin on to get. The people that whined, and in the end, made the developers change the game to please. Was the casuals! I truly feel that if people dont wanna work for it... they dont deserve it! Theres room for all of us, but changing a game for the casual "1 hour a day"-gamer, ruins it for everyone else. Wumi - EU-Kazzak (Havnt been on since the free epix... but whats 1 guy with 5mill. players around *sigh*)
First of all, there is a general misconception about online games here.
A game is meant to be FUN. That is its primary purpose. I repeat: not WORK, but FUN. If you have fun because of the quests, the challenges you face while you level your character to lvl 60 (or 70), the diversity that PvP presents by throwing unknown enemies at you on the BG's - it does not really matter. As long as you have fun, the game is OK for you.
However, there is a conflict of interest here. Players want fun. Companies want income. So they invented time sinks and grind instead of coming up with creative ideas that entertain you in addition to offering a challenge.
Grind and raiding instances till your eyes bleed are NOT challenge. It's a time sink that was created to make you spend your money on the next month subscription. A dungeon may be fun until you figure out how to beat it. From that point it's nothing else but DKP grind, and ceaseless re-runs, unti everbody is geared well enough for the next instance levels.
If you want to get rewarded according to the time you spent in the game -why don't you play EVE? There you can increase your skill, even if you are offline.
You mentioned SWG. and Jedi as a big carrot for people. True it was a big carrot but why. Because - if you were not a crafter - all other parts of the game lacked content, and that was the only viable goal that drove people. And belive me, subscription numbers started to drop before they introduced the Combat Upgrade.
Unfortunately, designing time sinks like grinding and raiding for the slim chance that the boss will drop the item you want and you'll be lucky to have enough DKP or to roll the highest to get it requires much less creativity (and therefore it is much simpler and more cost-efficient) than desining fun, challenging - albeit difficult - ways of getting the same items.
I have not seen any statistics about the gaming habits of the 7 million WoW subscribers but I doubt that the hardcore gamers represent the majority. So Blizzard's logic will work this way... we will rather sacrifice 1 million hardcore gamers to retain 6 million casual gamers. If you have issues with that approach, blame it on them and not on the casual players who love this game as much as you, but have different ideas about having fun.
Well as I said there is room for everyone but Id like to point out that its the hardcore gamers that keeps the shop running not the casual "visitor". I still have SWG in my mind as I write this and the post before. Cant help to compare this giving away free epix to casuals in WoW with the free jedi in SWG... which ultimately killed the game. (Yes i know the killing of the proffession and all that aswell but free jedi was one of the ultimate stab in the heart for the people working a year to reach the highest honor in Star Wars.. to become a Jedi)
I also have to add fyi that I reached Jedi Knight myself but I was a bounty hunter by heart as most people know from Bloodfin at that time. You are into the right path tho... the issue is content. The expirience from the minute u log on till you log off again.
I'm a little split on this tho. MMORPG its called... to my knowledge RPG means Role Playing Game ...as in entertaining yourself. Why do people of a virtual world have to get everything delivered on a silver platter? Can't people make their own fun strengthen their online community by making up their own fun?
I can't agree more to the "work" ur relating to. I feel i lost quite a few friends on that part. I have my own little guild for all my alts and turned down several merges with some fulltime raiding guilds. Just cuz I play to have fun. And i found that in crafting, upgrade quests and random raids. The free epix killed all 3 parts of that cuz everyone is in BGs getting epix! I feel I lost some good friends cuz they joined a major fulltime raidingguild and from the time they log on till the time they log off they are "working". And in between trying to convice me that its fun wiping yet again when the boss is at 5% or less. After ½-1 year they get bored and leave WoW.
As you see Im split on this cuz I fully believe that its meant to be hard to get "the carrot".
I wish there was an endgame BG for high end players only accessable by a loooong questline. Like if the gear You have kinda decides what BG You can enter. Being a casual gamer kinda sux when You run into a premade BG full of tier2 or higher opponents dont You think?
I really hope TBC will even up the raiding on current and upcoming instances so players will have more time for fun and dont have to "work" all the time.
The only problem with the changes, and the rest of the upcoming content is that it completely devalues all of the time that players sunk into 40 man instance grinding, and the old pvp system. Other games that have made changes this sweeping have at least given out crappy "veteran" rewards as status symbols of all the lost time....
that would mean the so-called casual players would also receive them.
it's a game. you don't grind in 40 man instances because you LOVE doing so?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well as I said there is room for everyone but Id like to point out that its the hardcore gamers that keeps the shop running not the casual "visitor". I still have SWG in my mind as I write this and the post before. Cant help to compare this giving away free epix to casuals in WoW with the free jedi in SWG...
do you have numbers to back up your hypothesis? if by hardcore, you mean "raider", you're wrong. kaplan gave numbers at the last e3 which showed that less than 1% of the players raid. this is followed by the massive BG changes pre-tbc and the actual changes AWAY from raids in tbc. (if anyone disputes these numbers, like some did before, please feel free to contact mr. jeff kaplan and tell HIM that he's wrong.)
so, raiders aren't the ones that keep the shop running.
have you ever gotten a toon to the highest three pvp ranks? have you ever gotten to the highest rank? what exactly are they giving away? all the people who had worked up to say rank 6 or 8 or even 10, all of a sudden don't have any honor at all and have to start from the very beginning to get new items, THEN they made it cost even more honor after the initial change/release. if it would've taken me two weeks of pvping to get from rank 6 to 7, will it only take me two weeks to accumulate all the honor to buy whatever i would have had available at rank 7, rank 8? rank 9?
there's plenty of casual players that piddle around on their multiple lvl 60s, waiting for TBC to come out. keep in mind, that wow was marketed as a casual friendly game, which is why they drew in the crowds they did. because casual players COULD play and still have a life. when someone quotes '7 million subs/players/whohas' they're talking about a lot of casual players.
pvp/bgs have been broken since they released bgs (9 months after retail, not AT retail. even though this game was also touted as a pvp game and would have those BGs available at retail release). not only the recent bg changes show they've been broken, but all you had to do was play in a bg, see some high ranking guy soloing (so that he'd get more honor and be able to advance quicker) whilst messing over everyone else on the honor points.
imo, they jacked over the hardcore pvpers in several ways. 1 bg rewards are still crap compared to the items you get from raiding. even though in order to be high level in bgs (previously) you had to spend more time BGing than any raider would spend raiding in a given week. 2 everyone starts at scratch, so those that only had a few weeks in order to get to the uber items, now start at the very beginning and well, that's fair? 3 there's still ONLY 3 BGs in a game called 'world of WARcraft'. it's not called 'world of RAIDcraft', so where in the world is the war? is it over that rare commodity in the desert? sand. rare. in a desert... shows the creativity behind the dev team there, bub.
anywho, i think i've rambled on too much at this point, so i'll close.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
lol there is still nothing casual about the new honor system. hate to break it to you guys but if you plan on getting full HWL/GM set it will take you about a year, if you are truly a "casual player." Not to meantion, in about 12 days it will no longer be end-game gear. Like I said a million times before, there is no such thing as a casual MMO player.
This is entirely inaccurate. Since the new honor patch I have attained the Field Marshal Shoulders for 12375 honor, Field Marshal's Boots for 12375 honor, Field Marshal's blade for 22500 honor, and the Blue Helm for 6k and the Blue Leggings for 6k. My +spell damage increased by around 200+. I PvP almost everyday from 2 hours to 6 hours (is this hardcore?) I have always considered myself a casual player, I dislike the endless raiding without reward side of the game. This system is more realistic for me with more attainable goals. I enjoy the fact that I can actually have a goal when I PvP, unlike raiding there are no guarantees. And on a personal note, I just like PvP.
Perhaps people will think I am a hardcore player and maybe I am slightly but I am not compared to most. I spend 14-25 hrs a week since the patch playing PvP, is this hardcore? I honestly think hardcore players are actually playing 6-8 hours a day 40+hrs a week.
A good PvPer makes use of the Double Honor Weekends!!!
Now if a player only plays 5-10 hours a week, it could take a month to purchase their first 22500 honor epic but even then they could have the entire set in about 6 months
Also, I don't care if this gear will obsolete at 70, it will help me get to 70 and kick ass while getting there.
I agree with a lot of what is written here by everyone but on several different fronts. I play...a lot, and I would consider myself a hardcore player, however, I don't raid and therefore was never really given an opportunity to earn epic items unless I scaled the PvP ladder, which I did, once, for the old, unrevised items. This patch seems beautiful to me. I don't lose my work when I decide to take a short break and I can have a tangible goal to work towards and track my progress better than before. One downside I have seen, and I can't speak for higher levels because lately I have been PvPing in lower brackets, is that everyone is starting to get the same items. I'll go into a BG and see 3 out of 4 rogues will have the same sword, dagger and boots and that really kind of kills the uniqueness of it all for me. I understand that they worked for the items as well but, eh, just doesn't do it for me. I know that there are many viable alternatives to these items but let's face it, A LOT of people are going to go after them because of how nice everything has been done now. On the flip side, I do recognize that players got the total shaft in revamping the honor system. I ground AV on one of my several 60s to revered, very close to exalted and then this patch knocked me back down to 0. That is a lot of time spent working towards items I wanted to have to start over from scratch. Inside, I think they almost made the items too easy to get, again, not referencing the 60s bracket as I haven't checked it out since the patch. In my mind, we could keep everyone happy if we offered items of several different qualities. Provide players with multiple shoulderpads, and charge more for the ones that are better. Hardcore players can get their awesome phat epix and casuals can also get items as well, only those who put in more time are rewarded for their effort. My two cents. Cheers.
[Here's a list of all the games I've played and/or my computer specs to show how much more seasoned or technologically advanced I am than you.]
**If you can't get into PvE raids OR PvP fights... then I just wonder why in the world you would give Blizz your money every month.**
Not everyone likes these types of gameplay. Some like simply to do quests and explore the terrain. There are too many gameplay styles that it's simply folly, in my mind, to say something like if you can't do this, the way I play, then why are you paying to play at all...pure folly.
Comments
Yea Wumi.. I hear you about crafting, but the same was true 3 months into the game (like 2 years ago). Fact is Blizz made crafting almost completely irrelevant to the end-game. Only herbalism has any real money-making potential. But, the new PVP patch really is not the bane of crafters... the entire game design is.
Crafting will not be a viable way to make money really until they make EVERY profession necessary to accomplish PvP and PvE goals. It looks a BIT like they might be moving this way in TBC, but really Blizz has never been big on crafting, and they don't look to be in the future either.
EDIT - And, let's not get TOO carried away with how "casual" you can be and still get rewards. On a double-honor weekend you are still doing good to get 1,000 honor/hour. So, even your basic weapon rewards will require over 22 HOURS of gameplay. That is just one weapon. The issue is not the time it will take you, but how and when you spend that time. instead of needing 40 people 6 hours on the SAME day, you can now run 5 people at any given 6 hours ANY time of the week. If people want to completely gear up in PvP stuff they are still looking to spend 100+ hours to do so.
..it kinda takes the discussion into another level.
What is MMO? Isn't it "living" in a virtual world?
The way i see it the PvP rewards are nothing different from the unlocks you can get in FPS games like BF2/Battlefield2142.
Wumi
Wumi - SWG - Bloodfin - Cancelled
Wumi - WoW - Eu-Kazzak - Cancelled
Bulldozer - Aion - Eu-Kahrun - Cancelled
Wumi - Rift - EU-Riptalon - Cancelled
First of all, there is a general misconception about online games here.
A game is meant to be FUN. That is its primary purpose. I repeat: not WORK, but FUN. If you have fun because of the quests, the challenges you face while you level your character to lvl 60 (or 70), the diversity that PvP presents by throwing unknown enemies at you on the BG's - it does not really matter. As long as you have fun, the game is OK for you.
However, there is a conflict of interest here. Players want fun. Companies want income. So they invented time sinks and grind instead of coming up with creative ideas that entertain you in addition to offering a challenge.
Grind and raiding instances till your eyes bleed are NOT challenge. It's a time sink that was created to make you spend your money on the next month subscription. A dungeon may be fun until you figure out how to beat it. From that point it's nothing else but DKP grind, and ceaseless re-runs, unti everbody is geared well enough for the next instance levels.
If you want to get rewarded according to the time you spent in the game -why don't you play EVE? There you can increase your skill, even if you are offline.
You mentioned SWG. and Jedi as a big carrot for people. True it was a big carrot but why. Because - if you were not a crafter - all other parts of the game lacked content, and that was the only viable goal that drove people. And belive me, subscription numbers started to drop before they introduced the Combat Upgrade.
Unfortunately, designing time sinks like grinding and raiding for the slim chance that the boss will drop the item you want and you'll be lucky to have enough DKP or to roll the highest to get it requires much less creativity (and therefore it is much simpler and more cost-efficient) than desining fun, challenging - albeit difficult - ways of getting the same items.
I have not seen any statistics about the gaming habits of the 7 million WoW subscribers but I doubt that the hardcore gamers represent the majority. So Blizzard's logic will work this way... we will rather sacrifice 1 million hardcore gamers to retain 6 million casual gamers. If you have issues with that approach, blame it on them and not on the casual players who love this game as much as you, but have different ideas about having fun.
First of all, there is a general misconception about online games here.
A game is meant to be FUN. That is its primary purpose. I repeat: not WORK, but FUN. If you have fun because of the quests, the challenges you face while you level your character to lvl 60 (or 70), the diversity that PvP presents by throwing unknown enemies at you on the BG's - it does not really matter. As long as you have fun, the game is OK for you.
However, there is a conflict of interest here. Players want fun. Companies want income. So they invented time sinks and grind instead of coming up with creative ideas that entertain you in addition to offering a challenge.
Grind and raiding instances till your eyes bleed are NOT challenge. It's a time sink that was created to make you spend your money on the next month subscription. A dungeon may be fun until you figure out how to beat it. From that point it's nothing else but DKP grind, and ceaseless re-runs, unti everbody is geared well enough for the next instance levels.
If you want to get rewarded according to the time you spent in the game -why don't you play EVE? There you can increase your skill, even if you are offline.
You mentioned SWG. and Jedi as a big carrot for people. True it was a big carrot but why. Because - if you were not a crafter - all other parts of the game lacked content, and that was the only viable goal that drove people. And belive me, subscription numbers started to drop before they introduced the Combat Upgrade.
Unfortunately, designing time sinks like grinding and raiding for the slim chance that the boss will drop the item you want and you'll be lucky to have enough DKP or to roll the highest to get it requires much less creativity (and therefore it is much simpler and more cost-efficient) than desining fun, challenging - albeit difficult - ways of getting the same items.
I have not seen any statistics about the gaming habits of the 7 million WoW subscribers but I doubt that the hardcore gamers represent the majority. So Blizzard's logic will work this way... we will rather sacrifice 1 million hardcore gamers to retain 6 million casual gamers. If you have issues with that approach, blame it on them and not on the casual players who love this game as much as you, but have different ideas about having fun.
Well as I said there is room for everyone but Id like to point out that its the hardcore gamers that keeps the shop running not the casual "visitor". I still have SWG in my mind as I write this and the post before. Cant help to compare this giving away free epix to casuals in WoW with the free jedi in SWG... which ultimately killed the game. (Yes i know the killing of the proffession and all that aswell but free jedi was one of the ultimate stab in the heart for the people working a year to reach the highest honor in Star Wars.. to become a Jedi)I also have to add fyi that I reached Jedi Knight myself but I was a bounty hunter by heart as most people know from Bloodfin at that time. You are into the right path tho... the issue is content. The expirience from the minute u log on till you log off again.
I'm a little split on this tho. MMORPG its called... to my knowledge RPG means Role Playing Game ...as in entertaining yourself. Why do people of a virtual world have to get everything delivered on a silver platter? Can't people make their own fun strengthen their online community by making up their own fun?
I can't agree more to the "work" ur relating to. I feel i lost quite a few friends on that part. I have my own little guild for all my alts and turned down several merges with some fulltime raiding guilds. Just cuz I play to have fun. And i found that in crafting, upgrade quests and random raids. The free epix killed all 3 parts of that cuz everyone is in BGs getting epix! I feel I lost some good friends cuz they joined a major fulltime raidingguild and from the time they log on till the time they log off they are "working". And in between trying to convice me that its fun wiping yet again when the boss is at 5% or less. After ½-1 year they get bored and leave WoW.
As you see Im split on this cuz I fully believe that its meant to be hard to get "the carrot".
I wish there was an endgame BG for high end players only accessable by a loooong questline. Like if the gear You have kinda decides what BG You can enter. Being a casual gamer kinda sux when You run into a premade BG full of tier2 or higher opponents dont You think?
I really hope TBC will even up the raiding on current and upcoming instances so players will have more time for fun and dont have to "work" all the time.
Wumi - SWG - Bloodfin - Cancelled
Wumi - WoW - Eu-Kazzak - Cancelled
Bulldozer - Aion - Eu-Kahrun - Cancelled
Wumi - Rift - EU-Riptalon - Cancelled
it's a game. you don't grind in 40 man instances because you LOVE doing so?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
so, raiders aren't the ones that keep the shop running.
have you ever gotten a toon to the highest three pvp ranks? have you ever gotten to the highest rank? what exactly are they giving away? all the people who had worked up to say rank 6 or 8 or even 10, all of a sudden don't have any honor at all and have to start from the very beginning to get new items, THEN they made it cost even more honor after the initial change/release. if it would've taken me two weeks of pvping to get from rank 6 to 7, will it only take me two weeks to accumulate all the honor to buy whatever i would have had available at rank 7, rank 8? rank 9?
there's plenty of casual players that piddle around on their multiple lvl 60s, waiting for TBC to come out. keep in mind, that wow was marketed as a casual friendly game, which is why they drew in the crowds they did. because casual players COULD play and still have a life. when someone quotes '7 million subs/players/whohas' they're talking about a lot of casual players.
pvp/bgs have been broken since they released bgs (9 months after retail, not AT retail. even though this game was also touted as a pvp game and would have those BGs available at retail release). not only the recent bg changes show they've been broken, but all you had to do was play in a bg, see some high ranking guy soloing (so that he'd get more honor and be able to advance quicker) whilst messing over everyone else on the honor points.
imo, they jacked over the hardcore pvpers in several ways. 1 bg rewards are still crap compared to the items you get from raiding. even though in order to be high level in bgs (previously) you had to spend more time BGing than any raider would spend raiding in a given week. 2 everyone starts at scratch, so those that only had a few weeks in order to get to the uber items, now start at the very beginning and well, that's fair?
anywho, i think i've rambled on too much at this point, so i'll close.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Perhaps people will think I am a hardcore player and maybe I am slightly but I am not compared to most. I spend 14-25 hrs a week since the patch playing PvP, is this hardcore? I honestly think hardcore players are actually playing 6-8 hours a day 40+hrs a week.
A good PvPer makes use of the Double Honor Weekends!!!
Now if a player only plays 5-10 hours a week, it could take a month to purchase their first 22500 honor epic but even then they could have the entire set in about 6 months
Also, I don't care if this gear will obsolete at 70, it will help me get to 70 and kick ass while getting there.
[Here's a list of all the games I've played and/or my computer specs to show how much more seasoned or technologically advanced I am than you.]