PvP and instancing don't mix on any level but the most pointless. Who gives a damn what I'm ranked on a ladder? I PvP for politics on a larger scale, and in no way harass or gank people. If I want to play on a ladder, I'll play an FPS.
MMOs with PvP are all about the clan/alliance politics at the endgame. As it was said before, I'd rather fight for the best leveling spot, or a castle/stronghold rather than a rank-up on some ladder.
The reputation that comes with your name is much more important than a ranking, in my opionion of course. That is why games like WoW annoy me so much. The PvP has no real purpose, so why even put it in to begin with?
Lol i like how you talk about skill, then bring up camping.
Anyway pvp arenas, sure fine they're alittle more personal and you only have 4v4 maybe at most sometimes. But whats the point of it? To gain points or to go up ina ranking system? Whats the pleasure in that? Theres no sense of danger and im certain there would probably be no chance of loss in a controlled environment such as that.
The point is to have fun with friends in a challenging enviroment.
I don't play chess or football to gain points or rank either.
I seek neither danger nor loss from my computer games. It's my hobby, I do it for pleasure.
And winning......is it's own reward.
Camping is a skill. The more you do it, the better you get at it, you have to learn the right spot, which players know what spots, and most of all, it takes discipline. Patience. I am the hunter.
A well rounded PvPer knows all the best tactics and when to use them, not just how to bumrush like a 13 year old with an itch. If you are playing in defense and you can't camp, your team will lose.
@Modjoe, nothing kills a multiplayer game faster than politics. It's the single biggest reason players leave in my opinion. A load of stressheads taking a game too seriously and trying to impose their will on others.
Okay, here it is, Ive spread this argument across many many posts, but everytime I end up arguing with sombody who resorts to silly one liners and faulty logic.
Don't take this the wrong way but it seems that you just haven't had any MMO experience beyond those based on the Everquest model.
I dont understand the benifits of ignoring instancing. Infact I have a hard time seeing any good reason why having no instanceing is good. People always go "It kills immersion" and its "Anti-Social in a social game." But give no shroud of evidence, example or support for those statements and I frankly dont understand where they are comming from. Probably because this argument deals with concepts at the fundamental level. If an MMO is designed to MAXIMIZE player interaction then introducing instancing, which creates barriers between players, is contraindicated. The specific game design must be taken into context when arguing about instancing; not just whether PvP and PvE are present but the quantity of each and how they are supposed to interrelate.
The way I look at it, it allows for much more control of encounters, Yes, the trend in PvE based MMOs has been to provide predictable gaming experiences. As some have already stated, they prefer unpredictability so the benefit is a matter of opinion. prevents zergs and allows content to be created for specific numbers of people and specific levels of people. You're assuming that MMOs must have a steep level based system for character development. Again, as others have said, many people have stated that they felt that games with a skill system where characters had a much smaller disparity in power (ie UO) provided the best PvP experience. As for zerging, I dont see that as a significant issue in a PvP focused MMO. There is strength and safety in numbers, just a fact of (virtual) life; make sure you have friends (and not just ones in chat). Its much less chaotic and leads to less greiving and drama. If a predictable and orderly game experience is what you like then that is your preference; again, some people like the unknown. IMO griefing is purposely exploiting game mechanics to interract with other players in a way not intended by the designers. If they state that the objective of the game is to kill other players and to expect to be killed by other players then people have no beef complaining about being killed. Problems arise when PvP is incorrectly meshed with a PvE game. IMO instancing would be, at best, a bandaid to address griefing in a poorly designed game. As for drama, don't get me started on the amount of drama that I saw in WoW instances about who should get what. Different kind of drama yes, but still drama. So please, could sombody give me a count argument with examples, and reasons longer than 1 sentence, I have been for a long time, very curious why people lead this crusade agasined instanced content. So it really comes down to the game or design in question whether or not instancing is a good thing. Personally I think it is a good thing in a game like WoW since it is predominantly a PvE game. I also think that Blizzard should have not bothered maintaining PvP servers after implementing the instanced battlegrounds; there is currently no point to world PvP and the large disparity in levels means that there is easy opportunity for high level players to grief low level players. On the other hand I would be very disappointed if instancing was implemented in a game like Darkfall. Make sense?
But this is coming from a PVP'ers perspective, I don't care much for PVE raiding or uber loot.
I'm calling bullshit on this right now. That's not a True PvP'ers stance, that's a GANKERS stance. A Frag-Fest is just as meaningless as instanced PvP, infact it's more-so. True PvP'ers strive to have a clean match where neither side has huge clear-cut advantages going into it. Guildwars is the perfect example of this as it has Ladders which for the most part, REALLY DO MEAN SOMETHING to the thousands of players who watch the rankings and not just the people in one or two guilds. "King of the hill" monkey business over some dinky raidable little fort might mean something the to individual n00bs who are involved in that particular fight, but it's always going to be a fleeting victory that a buncha Australian Ninjas can put an end to just hours after it happens. More importantly, the "Tournament" style PvP formats usually award the winners tangible benefits, sometimes even cold hard cash.
And none of that is possible without using Instanced Combat scenarios.
If you're going to take that tone - I'm just going to call you an idiot.
Where do you get off saying that a person who partakes in PvP in an MMO is not a true-PvP'er where someone who plays a hybrid game like guild is? I'm really happy for you that you really like PvP ladders but maybe that holding that dinky little fort is its own ladder for those MMO players. Tangible benefits? Cold hard cash? What about playing for the fun of it... Victory can be its own reward.
Guild Wars is a hybrid; on the official site they suggest that it is a CORPG. Comparing it to a MMORPG is like apples to oranges and you are calling someone a liar based on it? Hmm... Ok.
Lol i like how you talk about skill, then bring up camping.
Anyway pvp arenas, sure fine they're alittle more personal and you only have 4v4 maybe at most sometimes. But whats the point of it? To gain points or to go up ina ranking system? Whats the pleasure in that? Theres no sense of danger and im certain there would probably be no chance of loss in a controlled environment such as that.
The point is to have fun with friends in a challenging enviroment.
I don't play chess or football to gain points or rank either.
I seek neither danger nor loss from my computer games. It's my hobby, I do it for pleasure.
And winning......is it's own reward.
Camping is a skill. The more you do it, the better you get at it, you have to learn the right spot, which players know what spots, and most of all, it takes discipline. Patience. I am the hunter.
A well rounded PvPer knows all the best tactics and when to use them, not just how to bumrush like a 13 year old with an itch. If you are playing in defense and you can't camp, your team will lose.
@Modjoe, nothing kills a multiplayer game faster than politics. It's the single biggest reason players leave in my opinion. A load of stressheads taking a game too seriously and trying to impose their will on others.
Thats more of a game like Quake III and what not. Or hell even Savage. In an mmo why would you just leave it to small shard of people when you have thousands to play with? Thats how I look at it. And im sorry but what good is a fort if it cant be destroyed.
Now towards your "Its just a game" theory, if you feel that way then whats wrong with losing things? You hunt all day finding the right gloves and the last month you just got some armor and a weapon and youd ont wanna lose it right? Well if thats true then you might wanna try darkfall online. It makes it so items are extremely easy to come b y, nothings rare unique or overpowered. No uber sword of slaying.
When you die, you lose your items you pick more up then you press on (For a fee of course). And the art of winning in a true pvp environment isnt XX amount of points but EXP and items.
And camping isnt a skill, thatslike saying the awp from CS is entirely skill. Camping IMO is laziness, you dont want to feel endangered or even have the chance of getting damaged so you find a nice cozey spot where no one can see you then throw things at people when they swing by ya. Happens to be one of my biggest pet peeves in all games out are the lowely campers. FEIGN DEATH ON THE OTHER HAND, entirely uber ^_^.
And also its not camping you get better at its the item you use.
Really depends what kind of game your playing. PVE games its probably ok for games like COH and what not if its completely o.0/carebear/PVE. IF its more of a PVP game its HORRIBLE.
What would be the point of playing a pvp game with instances when you dont even have to defend anything, would take away more of something that actaully has meaning to fight over *Cough* WOW *Cough*.
Theres not really a whole hell of alot that goes bad when its in a pve game but once it comes into pvp alot of the reason to pvp (Ownership of land and dungeons and even supremecy over parts of a map) pretty much gets taken away.
i too was a KoRn fan forever... I say was because forever lasted about as long as Issues... after that? bye bye
i somewhat agree and somewhat disagree that instancing in PVP is a bad thing. PVE instancing is very good, not for all content like in DDO or GW but for the big important stuff, instancing is very helpful, fun, and needed
back to PVP instancing.... I'm ok with having battlegrounds and arena type PVP as part of the PVP experience. It allows a player to log in, wack away at their fellow players for however long they choose, then log off. Not suppose to have any permanence or long lasting effect, just something fun to do... like playing a couple matches in Halo or Counterstrike. Hence why you see arathi basin and warsong gultch in WoW, king of the hill and capture the flag, taken directly from genre of first person shooters. Same with the new arena stuff in WoW, 2vs2 3vs3 or 5vs5 elimination. Quick, bloody, and fun.
What wow IS missing is part of the PVP experience that does have permanence. World PVP is a joke as are the PVP objectives in some zones, why? because they've created a system that is a competitve grindfest, so world pvp and world zone objectives are a waste of time and not as efficient as running battleground after battleground.
What they need is a open world PVP system with a lasting effect. Example I ALWAYS fall back on is Factions system from old school UO. make towns/citiies capturaable, reward factions in control of cities. Problem is you cannot do that in the current WoW world becasue of quest givers and such, towns either horde or alliance and have quests/flight points/etc according. capturing a town in current WoW would shaft any non pvper just trying to go turn in a quest or repair their armor, so you can't do it. Can't have neutral towns captureable either because of questing.
So you have to create a seperate world for which all PVP (world pvp that is) exists and eliminate the PVE aspect of it. As UO did with the trammel/feluca divide.
So change all PVP and PVE servers to the same thing, but make some way to teleport one's self to either pvp or pve world. PVE world for questing, leveling, etc etc and PVP world for capturing towns/cities and epic battle. give victorious faction in PVP world some lasting benefit for PVE world so it actually matters.
only problem is servers crashing when more then a couple hundred players on screen at once, and world is too large. So you do what they have done with "battlegroups" and only use part of one of the continents. Odd number of town/cities capturable so always winning/losing side. make rewards for this PVP world not based off grinding # of honor points and medals but from acheiving victories, participating in successful defense of one of your towns or capturing of enemy town. heck keep BG's exactly the same for the "quick" pvp fix and the PVP world for the hardcore all day and night crazy PVP action that actually has an effect on the world, a lasting one. a TRUE war between the horde and alliance.
Blizzard went wrong when they made WoW as sissy as they could, instances dont belong to the world of WoW nor does the gam eneed to portray an optimized version of DAOC (If you dont see then please /endself now).
Darkfall will have those long lasting effects and is being made mainly around pvp. But they have alot of PVE aspects too, mostly because the components for spells, armor, weapons and other things can be found on monsters and the landscape. I love the idea of that game and the fact of its open PVP and the no ones overpowered idea.
Comments
PvP and instancing don't mix on any level but the most pointless. Who gives a damn what I'm ranked on a ladder? I PvP for politics on a larger scale, and in no way harass or gank people. If I want to play on a ladder, I'll play an FPS.
MMOs with PvP are all about the clan/alliance politics at the endgame. As it was said before, I'd rather fight for the best leveling spot, or a castle/stronghold rather than a rank-up on some ladder.
The reputation that comes with your name is much more important than a ranking, in my opionion of course. That is why games like WoW annoy me so much. The PvP has no real purpose, so why even put it in to begin with?
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The point is to have fun with friends in a challenging enviroment.
I don't play chess or football to gain points or rank either.
I seek neither danger nor loss from my computer games. It's my hobby, I do it for pleasure.
And winning......is it's own reward.
Camping is a skill. The more you do it, the better you get at it, you have to learn the right spot, which players know what spots, and most of all, it takes discipline. Patience. I am the hunter.
A well rounded PvPer knows all the best tactics and when to use them, not just how to bumrush like a 13 year old with an itch. If you are playing in defense and you can't camp, your team will lose.
@Modjoe, nothing kills a multiplayer game faster than politics. It's the single biggest reason players leave in my opinion. A load of stressheads taking a game too seriously and trying to impose their will on others.
I'm calling bullshit on this right now. That's not a True PvP'ers stance, that's a GANKERS stance. A Frag-Fest is just as meaningless as instanced PvP, infact it's more-so. True PvP'ers strive to have a clean match where neither side has huge clear-cut advantages going into it. Guildwars is the perfect example of this as it has Ladders which for the most part, REALLY DO MEAN SOMETHING to the thousands of players who watch the rankings and not just the people in one or two guilds. "King of the hill" monkey business over some dinky raidable little fort might mean something the to individual n00bs who are involved in that particular fight, but it's always going to be a fleeting victory that a buncha Australian Ninjas can put an end to just hours after it happens. More importantly, the "Tournament" style PvP formats usually award the winners tangible benefits, sometimes even cold hard cash.
And none of that is possible without using Instanced Combat scenarios.
If you're going to take that tone - I'm just going to call you an idiot.
Where do you get off saying that a person who partakes in PvP in an MMO is not a true-PvP'er where someone who plays a hybrid game like guild is? I'm really happy for you that you really like PvP ladders but maybe that holding that dinky little fort is its own ladder for those MMO players. Tangible benefits? Cold hard cash? What about playing for the fun of it... Victory can be its own reward.
Guild Wars is a hybrid; on the official site they suggest that it is a CORPG. Comparing it to a MMORPG is like apples to oranges and you are calling someone a liar based on it? Hmm... Ok.
The point is to have fun with friends in a challenging enviroment.
I don't play chess or football to gain points or rank either.
I seek neither danger nor loss from my computer games. It's my hobby, I do it for pleasure.
And winning......is it's own reward.
Camping is a skill. The more you do it, the better you get at it, you have to learn the right spot, which players know what spots, and most of all, it takes discipline. Patience. I am the hunter.
A well rounded PvPer knows all the best tactics and when to use them, not just how to bumrush like a 13 year old with an itch. If you are playing in defense and you can't camp, your team will lose.
@Modjoe, nothing kills a multiplayer game faster than politics. It's the single biggest reason players leave in my opinion. A load of stressheads taking a game too seriously and trying to impose their will on others.
Thats more of a game like Quake III and what not. Or hell even Savage. In an mmo why would you just leave it to small shard of people when you have thousands to play with? Thats how I look at it. And im sorry but what good is a fort if it cant be destroyed.
Now towards your "Its just a game" theory, if you feel that way then whats wrong with losing things? You hunt all day finding the right gloves and the last month you just got some armor and a weapon and youd ont wanna lose it right? Well if thats true then you might wanna try darkfall online. It makes it so items are extremely easy to come b y, nothings rare unique or overpowered. No uber sword of slaying.
When you die, you lose your items you pick more up then you press on (For a fee of course). And the art of winning in a true pvp environment isnt XX amount of points but EXP and items.
And camping isnt a skill, thatslike saying the awp from CS is entirely skill. Camping IMO is laziness, you dont want to feel endangered or even have the chance of getting damaged so you find a nice cozey spot where no one can see you then throw things at people when they swing by ya. Happens to be one of my biggest pet peeves in all games out are the lowely campers. FEIGN DEATH ON THE OTHER HAND, entirely uber ^_^.
And also its not camping you get better at its the item you use.
i too was a KoRn fan forever... I say was because forever lasted about as long as Issues... after that? bye bye
i somewhat agree and somewhat disagree that instancing in PVP is a bad thing. PVE instancing is very good, not for all content like in DDO or GW but for the big important stuff, instancing is very helpful, fun, and needed
back to PVP instancing.... I'm ok with having battlegrounds and arena type PVP as part of the PVP experience. It allows a player to log in, wack away at their fellow players for however long they choose, then log off. Not suppose to have any permanence or long lasting effect, just something fun to do... like playing a couple matches in Halo or Counterstrike. Hence why you see arathi basin and warsong gultch in WoW, king of the hill and capture the flag, taken directly from genre of first person shooters. Same with the new arena stuff in WoW, 2vs2 3vs3 or 5vs5 elimination. Quick, bloody, and fun.
What wow IS missing is part of the PVP experience that does have permanence. World PVP is a joke as are the PVP objectives in some zones, why? because they've created a system that is a competitve grindfest, so world pvp and world zone objectives are a waste of time and not as efficient as running battleground after battleground.
What they need is a open world PVP system with a lasting effect. Example I ALWAYS fall back on is Factions system from old school UO. make towns/citiies capturaable, reward factions in control of cities. Problem is you cannot do that in the current WoW world becasue of quest givers and such, towns either horde or alliance and have quests/flight points/etc according. capturing a town in current WoW would shaft any non pvper just trying to go turn in a quest or repair their armor, so you can't do it. Can't have neutral towns captureable either because of questing.
So you have to create a seperate world for which all PVP (world pvp that is) exists and eliminate the PVE aspect of it. As UO did with the trammel/feluca divide.
So change all PVP and PVE servers to the same thing, but make some way to teleport one's self to either pvp or pve world. PVE world for questing, leveling, etc etc and PVP world for capturing towns/cities and epic battle. give victorious faction in PVP world some lasting benefit for PVE world so it actually matters.
only problem is servers crashing when more then a couple hundred players on screen at once, and world is too large. So you do what they have done with "battlegroups" and only use part of one of the continents. Odd number of town/cities capturable so always winning/losing side. make rewards for this PVP world not based off grinding # of honor points and medals but from acheiving victories, participating in successful defense of one of your towns or capturing of enemy town. heck keep BG's exactly the same for the "quick" pvp fix and the PVP world for the hardcore all day and night crazy PVP action that actually has an effect on the world, a lasting one. a TRUE war between the horde and alliance.
LISTEN TO ME BLIZZARD lol
Darkfall will have those long lasting effects and is being made mainly around pvp. But they have alot of PVE aspects too, mostly because the components for spells, armor, weapons and other things can be found on monsters and the landscape. I love the idea of that game and the fact of its open PVP and the no ones overpowered idea.