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PvP in Vanguard
Nopex
Member Posts: 86
I am aware of the fact that PvP in Vanguard is only available on the PvP servers, but this makes me think a few things and I have a couple of questions if anyone has the time to read & answer.
Like MANY MANY others I am looking for the next UO that existed before the infamous trammel/Fellucia split that ruined it’s appeal for me. Vanguard I must say is coming pretty damn close. Player housing, owning boats, a wonderful fantasy based world are all UO boxes that are checked, but it seems obvious that on the PvE the ONLY risk involved is being killed by monsters.
Now I;m no pk’er. I never have been nor will I ever will be. I infact actively hunted them down and killed them in UO. But the risk and worry that anytime, anywhere you could be killed by a pk’er certainly made the game more enjoyable. In Ultima, the majority of the time you were out in the wild, nothing would happen and if you came across someone who wasn’t red they would be friendly & welcoming. The majority of MMO gamers are so this stands to reason. What worries me though is that these people, given the choice would rather not play on a PvP server and would stick to th PvE. This sucks because it means there may not be any balance on the PvP servers. All the nice people will just be on PvE and all the people who want to kill anyone they will be on the PvP server. My worry is that there will not be many people like me, who do not want to kill 99% of people they see. But just enjoy the risk and extra dimension of excitement on a PvP server.
Can anyone shed any light on how the PvP server will work in Vanguard. Can anyone kill anyone anywhere (other than towns and other designated areas of course) with no penalty to karma or anything like that? Has anyone played any other such games with PvP servers and PvE servers and found that the PvP server is basically a total free or all without any balance in player attitude whatsoever?
Basically, I just feel that PvE is a bit boring and it’s long term appeal to me is minimal due to the lack of risk. But at the same time I’d hate to be on a PvP server, meet people in the wild and the reflex by them 99% of the time be to kill me rather than chat and perhaps group up together.
A rant I know, I’m so excited about this game having seen video footage and this is the only ‘niggle’ I have right now.
Any typos are entirely the keyboards fault btw 
Comments
You answered your own question, I won't goto a PvP server for the simple fact that I don't want to have to worry about some other player whose only way to find enjoyment out of life is when hes depriving someone else of their enjoyment. Basically the A/H's of the gaming community, I've played on PvP servers before and it always comes down to the same thing, beginning areas infested with this type of individual who runs around with little risk to himself seemingly with no purpose other than to incite hard feelings in others. Now why would I pay for that?
I will join one of the PvE servers and happily go about my day doing whatever grind is available in VSoH without feeding the A/H's of the world. I won't find it boring in the least, trust me.
I think one of the best systems, that i thoroughly enjoyed, was thw SWG consensual system.
I'm not a PvPer, but i grew to become one in that game until it was all i did, becoming a kind of hardcore PvPer.
The beauty of that system was, if i really needed to do something like check factories, go shopping, maybe even go afk in a town, i wouldn't need to worry as i could go covert. It didn't affect the fun of PvP to have this choice, as the people who wanted to PvP, would go overt, hence if they died, it was their fault. Simple and brilliant.
It’s a shame that game makers wont maintain the balance or take the risk that UO had.
PK’ers are a minority of a population. A very small one and if the penalties associated with pk’ing are hard to deal with (ie exile from towns etc…) you get a good balance. Pre trammel/felucia in UO things weren’t SO desperately bad and unfair such a drastic measure had to be implemented.
You’re take on people who pk in games as being Assholes I find ignorant and unjustified. If a game has player killing built into the mechanics it should be used by those who choose to do so. If people are rude and obnoxious while they do it that’s something different, but they are just that..DIFFERENT. I’ve pirated in Eve many times but have never once been disrespectful when I’ve done it. If someone paid a ransom I let them go everytime.
I just feel that the games are unbalanced in terms of PvP and PvE. You can have a balanced game in which PvP can occur anywhere. In UO if you attacked someone else who was ‘blue’ you turned grey for 15 minutes or so and could be killed by anyone. So you’d never do it on a dungeon raid or in a place where people were around. Going out solo in the wild, you should be prepared to potentially meet a criminal (even though you wont always meet one) just the same way you would be careful about coming across a monster. Due diligence should be implemented.
MMO’s aren’t giving players who do want to PvP a fair balance of the equation as the people who don’t want to PvP as they are perceived to be the bad guys, when as long as they’re not being rude tey’re just playing as intended. Instead they split the servers and they get an unbalanced game where EVERYONE is killing EVERYONE when they just want a bit of both.
A big shame. The old UO was amazing and you see a thousand posts a day from people saying the same. It’s such a shame people are so worried about losing their items etc.. to other people. Guess I’ll have to play Vanguard and see how darkfall turns out.
-Newbie A makes a character on a PvP server.
-Newbie A starts to XP a bit and then gets ganked by some high lvl asshole A 15 mins after starting.
-Newbie A says "Screw this, I'm going to a PvE server, PvP isnt fun.
-Newbie B makes a character on a PvP server.
-Newbie B starts to XP a bit and then gets ganked by some high lvl asshole A 15 mins after starting.
-Newbie B says "Screw this, I'm going to a PvE server, PvP isnt fun.
-Rinse, wash and repeat like 10000000 times and thats why PvP is dying in games.
A few people can kill the expirence for ALOT of people. It doesnt matter how nice or well intentiond you personally are, there are always going to be a few assholes and those few assholes ruin it for the good players. Such is life. Remeber in school when the whole class would get punshied for something one person did?
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
One of the biggest pvp issues and why pvp cant be to good in class based games is that certain classes will always be better for pvp. classed based games are the worst thing for pvp, when you make your char you have just defined your entire role in pvp from the start nothing you do will change it.
In the end with classes you will get the certain classes that will be the better pvp classes, and then you will get the group templates for the best pvp group.
So basically all I’m saying is that PvP in games like Vanguard will never attract a huge audience because people are forced to play certain classes in order to do well in pvp.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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You’re failing to grasp the point I’m making here.
What I’m saying is that when you split the game into PvP and PvE, ALL you get on the PvP servers is people killing anyone and everyone all over the place and obviously you don’t even get the choice on the PvE server. When you only have one type of server and gametype, with adequate penalties for pk’ing such as UO did, you get a healthy balance.
It worked back then and would still work now. Instead, it’s one extreme or the other.
Of the many many many many player houses I invested in UO, such a tiny proportion of it involved being player killed. Being a pk’er is a damn hard career choice and massively limits your exploration of the game. You can’t go in towns, dungeons or ANY public place without getting spanked instantly, therefore it’s a very small proportion of people who do it.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
“I don't see a problem”
No you’re right you don’t.
When you populate a server with people who want to PvP it turns into the annoying free for all the previous person described before.
When you have one server type with the option implemented you get a 90% populous who don’t want to PvP and a 10% minority who do. Make life as a pk’er very very hard indeed such as UO in the old days and the number of PvP’ers shrinks again.
It is not quite as black and white as Splitting it into a black and white scenario such as you have in your mind unfortunately. What is also unfortunate is that game developers (except the developers of darkfall) seem to share the same PoV.
WoW has a terrible PvP system that encourages griefers, which is why my wife and I left one. The whole "The sense of danger, knowing that over the next hill could be enemies willing to lay into you" was off set by the fact that often times these people were 10-15 levels ahead of us. We played on Burning Legion for a while, messing with a few classes until we settled on a hunter combo for the two of us.
It was fun, but as we hit about 40ish, the gankage became intolerable, and we left BL and moved to Perenolde, a PvE server.
I have a lvl 60 mage in very high end gear, and several other characters between 40-55. It's been far more enjoyable.
That all being said, you know what game I loved the most? DAoC. Why? The PvP had a real purpose, a legitimacy to it, a logic for why I was killing and being killed.
Open FFA PVP is rarely worth the time for either players or developers to mess with. Conversely, structured PvP is worth the time. Take the BG's as poorly as they are done, people love them, and often my guild can be found out takeing on the Horde. (we originally were Horde on PvP)
Always change your signature.
Amen.
In Eve the purpose of piracy is to make a living a lot of the time. In UO It was very much the same because if you killed someone with expensive loot, you took it from their corpse and sold it.
On PvP servers, the WHOLE point is to PvP which sucks because it should just be a small part of a balanced game, rather than like you say, an unorganised, messy free for all.
Exactly. You said it your self. 90 percent population that doesnt want to PvP and 10 percent that does. As a developer, why would I cater to the 10 percent of the population?. In terms of logic what you are saying doesnt really make sense. That 90 percent of the population isnt going to PvP if you suddenly took them and threw them onto to a PvP server but the 10 percent still would. So bascily all your doing is giving the 10 percent more "targets" where as if you split the 2 the only targets the 10 percent have is each other. Are you saying your upset because you dont have more targets? IE people that don't WANT to PvP but should be FORCED? The problem here isnt the division of the servers, the problem is that people dont WANT to PvP because PvP has a bad image because of the newbie area camping, griefing, etc. Want to fix PvP? Fix the reason people play on PvE servers.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Never mind dude. Never mind.
Completely unable to grasp the idea here clearly.
Ganking newbies in the starting zone isn't PvP, it's cowardly and pointless, there is no context for such behavior. And rightly so the game worlds have moved away from such silliness.
PvP with a purpose, a reason and a set rule structure is not only more fun than FFA PVP, but also more lucrative. Few people get enjoyment from being ganked for no reason. But give them a reason to PvP, a set how what where and why, they flock to it.
I know that may hurt the PVP crowds feelings, but that's just reality.
Always change your signature.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Ganking newbies in the starting zone isn't PvP, it's cowardly and pointless, there is no context for such behavior. And rightly so the game worlds have moved away from such silliness.
PvP with a purpose, a reason and a set rule structure is not only more fun than FFA PVP, but also more lucrative. Few people get enjoyment from being ganked for no reason. But give them a reason to PvP, a set how what where and why, they flock to it.
I know that may hurt the PVP crowds feelings, but that's just reality. Your right, Ganking newbies ISNT PvP but thats what the 10 percent of the population that are assholes are doing. IHow many threads a day does this place get about the old FFA PvP days of UO. The problem is that when you start putting rules on PvP the PvPers start getting upset. "Thats carebear PvP!!!" I think WoW BG's was the greatest PvP system created because I think alot of people that normally wouldnt have PvP'd really got into it. Not only was PvP fun, It did a decent job of evening the playing field. If you went into a BG your werent going to encounter a player 40 lvls above you and he want going to have 7 friends with him to beat up a single play. His gear might be better but skill>gear any day of the week. That PvP as it should be. 10 on 10, 20 on 20, even lvl. But to so many thats "Carebear" PvP. They want a endless slaughter where they can vanquish newb after newb.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
No. I assure you're not thinking about this properly. No game I've ever played in has allowed people to camp newbie areas and gank them over and over again and any game which allows this needs to be sorted out. This kind of experience would happen on a PvP server because the devs have built a game from the perspective of PvE in the first place. The PvP servers get a little after thought and such things occur.
Had PvP been thought about as a part of the game in the first place there would be no such problem. Like there is in Eve an used to be in UO. It WORKS and it can be done.
You rant about "assholes" this and newbies been ganked here etc...You have had a bad experience and are so blinded by anti PvP agenda you aren't considering this properly. Forget my ONLY demonstrative 90% to 10% ratio because in effect it's more like 99.999999% to a minority pk'ers because lifes so damn hard to live as one in games like Eve or UO. The options just there.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Why do you assume that PVP must be FFA?-
Always change your signature.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
More often than not I find that FFA full loot PVP is something few really desire. It's not a commercially viable option of game play. If you are lucky a company MIGHT give you a server for FFA, but they never seem to last that long.
I would ignore the hard core FFA PVP'rs, they are a minority of a minority. PvP was best done in DAoC, and when War hammer is released I think you will find that PvP is very much alive and well. And the hard cores will go off and play CS as usual.
Always change your signature.
Most people aren't looking for a challenge when it comes to pvping. They are wolves looking for sheep. And in any class based game, they are almost always going to dominate the sheep. So the sheep head to the forums, and scream to high heavens about the wolves. The devs nerf the wolves, and buff the sheep, and then the wolves come screaming and crying about the sheep not being free kills, and the cycle starts all over again, ad nauseum. See Rogues, and Warlocks/Mages/Shadow Priests in WoW for a fine example.
Even in games like DAoC, which is supposed to be a pvp based game, the pvp is segregated from the pve portion of the game. Why? Wolves vs Sheep. Sheep just want to be left the hell alone to graze in peace, and wolves? Just want to eat sheep. If there's no sheep? They eat other wolves that are weaker than themselves.
WoW and it's Battlegrounds brought a lot of sheep to the pvp side of things, because there was no penalty. No xp loss, no having your corpse looted, zilch, nada, zip. They could queue up, come in, and kick someones ass with their leet pve gear, and they themselves felt like a wolf for a bit. That's the allure of WoW's pvp. If you took those same people, and threw them in Shadowbane, Rallos Zek, or 0.0 space in Eve? 99.99% would high tail it right out.
UO was brought up as the holy grail of pvp, and the wisdom of keeping wolves and sheep in the same pen. As I recall the initial penalty for killing someone was getting a red name, which labeled you as a murderer? Meaning quards would attack on sight, and you couldn't use merchant npcs in most cities, I think?. If I remember they eventually added some form of statloss for being a murderer, as the red name thing didn't deter people like they thought it would. Whatever the "harsh" penalties were in UO, they didn't seem to do much to deter people from making a career out of having a red name. Which eventually led the devs to the decision to do the Trammel split. And, aside from Shadowbane, I don't recall any domestic games which have had nonconsensual pvp as a part of the core gameplay since. Because, financially, it's just a bad idea. No matter what harsh penalties you throw at people, there will be plenty that circumvent them, or create throwaway characters, or just accept the penalties, and use alts to unload their gold/loot, etc.
It's not wolves and sheep though, I think on that score you are mistaken, it's context.
If there is a reason to do it, and a set structure, people are more likely to do it. DAoC kept PvE and PvP separate for a reason. Leveling and questing isn't much fun when someone is constantly killing you for no other reason than they could.
Which is where context of the pvp matters, and why game dev's are shying away from FFA lootable PVP. There are few people that enjoy it, so why waste time on a system that serves only to stoke the ego's of those few players who claim to want such an undesirable system?
Always change your signature.