When the grind rules.

Snotling

A few months ago, I quit WoW after reaching lvl 20. I quit because I felt that I was wasting my time. After cancelling the subscription, I started thinking: What was wrong with modern MMOs, what drew me to MMOs in the first place, and what makes them so fun?

I first thought the problem was the combat, so I tried a game with real-time combat: DDO. As it turns out, this game was actually worse than WoW. Combat wasn't the problem.

After thinking even more, I realised the answer: the grind. Soon, this led me to the answer to my second and third questions mentioned above. The draw of MMOs is the promise of adventure and exploration. I don't know about you, but I don't really consider killing the same mob over and over an "adventure." 

As I look at the MMOs currently being developed, I see two types of MMOs, ones taking steps in the wrong direction, and ones taking steps in the right direction. Games like Vanguard and LoTRO are taking steps back, theyre sticking with the grind and making combat the primary aspect of their games. Games like PotBS and TCoS are taking steps foreward. They're minimizing the grind and putting more emphasis on exploration, advenure, and social aspects.

I hope that eventually, these types of MMOs will be the majority, and people wont have to grind all day just to go into the next zone, but currently it doesn't seem like the genre will head in that direction.

 

jezvin

I think the grind is a lot more important than people think; the problem isn’t that the grind exists but that it is not fun, a game needs to be made that takes the grind and makes it a lot less repetitive and a lot more fun.

Snotling

Originally posted by jezvin


I think the grind is a lot more important than people think; the problem isn’t that the grind exists but that it is not fun, a game needs to be made that takes the grind and makes it a lot less repetitive and a lot more fun.

 

You bring up a good point, but I think more grind = less exploration. It becomes more of an annoyance than fun.

Snotling

Originally posted by Rhoklaw


The grind was implemented first in EverQuest and the reason being was because MMO's took on a new form of never ending gaming. How do you create a persistant online game without setting boundaries. Even with recent games such as World of Warcraft and City of Heroes, people are taking the grind to new limits by reaching max levels in months or even weeks and in some rare cases, days. You have to look at it from the developers point of view. You spend millions of dollars which can only be recovered if the game's longevity is there to keep people subscribed for atleast a year or two. The easiest way to keep people subscribed is of course to control their rate of leveling.
Perhaps one day, games won't require so much money to create and we could do away with "The Grind" so people can actually sit down and enjoy the game with everyone, instead of just those who level at the same pace as you. We all hate the grind, not because it makes the game progress so slowly, but because we miss out on the feeling of accomplishment. The grind when first introduced was actually a good idea and something everyone could live with. It wasn't until people started gaming hardcore or paying 3rd party levelers to get them to max level in a few days that games became pointless to play.
You are right though, the grind has been conquered because of 3rd party levelers and so a lot of games are being put on the shelf because no one wants to compete with that. Hopefully games like Eve Online will shed some light on how gaming should be done, where player dedication is rewarded based on time both in and out of game, instead of just in game.

There has to be another way to make good MMOs besides creating time based gameplay. Its like playing Grand Theft Auto and trying to steal a car, then you see a message saying "You can only steal cars after waiting two days or killing 100 gangsters." 

jezvin

Originally posted by Snotling

Originally posted by Rhoklaw


The grind was implemented first in EverQuest and the reason being was because MMO's took on a new form of never ending gaming. How do you create a persistant online game without setting boundaries. Even with recent games such as World of Warcraft and City of Heroes, people are taking the grind to new limits by reaching max levels in months or even weeks and in some rare cases, days. You have to look at it from the developers point of view. You spend millions of dollars which can only be recovered if the game's longevity is there to keep people subscribed for atleast a year or two. The easiest way to keep people subscribed is of course to control their rate of leveling.
Perhaps one day, games won't require so much money to create and we could do away with "The Grind" so people can actually sit down and enjoy the game with everyone, instead of just those who level at the same pace as you. We all hate the grind, not because it makes the game progress so slowly, but because we miss out on the feeling of accomplishment. The grind when first introduced was actually a good idea and something everyone could live with. It wasn't until people started gaming hardcore or paying 3rd party levelers to get them to max level in a few days that games became pointless to play.
You are right though, the grind has been conquered because of 3rd party levelers and so a lot of games are being put on the shelf because no one wants to compete with that. Hopefully games like Eve Online will shed some light on how gaming should be done, where player dedication is rewarded based on time both in and out of game, instead of just in game.

There has to be another way to make good MMOs besides creating time based gameplay. Its like playing Grand Theft Auto and trying to steal a car, then you see a message saying "You can only steal cars after waiting two days or killing 100 gangsters." 

The problem isn’t killing 100 gangsters; it’s that killing 100 gangsters get boring and dull after the first few. Games like WOW and such just made the grind really short, you don’t have to kill 100 gangsters to progress you only have to kill 10 so you are done with gangsters before they get boring. But it also leads to really shot grind, that tents to be fun because it doesn’t get repetitive.

Snotling

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by Snotling

Originally posted by Rhoklaw


The grind was implemented first in EverQuest and the reason being was because MMO's took on a new form of never ending gaming. How do you create a persistant online game without setting boundaries. Even with recent games such as World of Warcraft and City of Heroes, people are taking the grind to new limits by reaching max levels in months or even weeks and in some rare cases, days. You have to look at it from the developers point of view. You spend millions of dollars which can only be recovered if the game's longevity is there to keep people subscribed for atleast a year or two. The easiest way to keep people subscribed is of course to control their rate of leveling.
Perhaps one day, games won't require so much money to create and we could do away with "The Grind" so people can actually sit down and enjoy the game with everyone, instead of just those who level at the same pace as you. We all hate the grind, not because it makes the game progress so slowly, but because we miss out on the feeling of accomplishment. The grind when first introduced was actually a good idea and something everyone could live with. It wasn't until people started gaming hardcore or paying 3rd party levelers to get them to max level in a few days that games became pointless to play.
You are right though, the grind has been conquered because of 3rd party levelers and so a lot of games are being put on the shelf because no one wants to compete with that. Hopefully games like Eve Online will shed some light on how gaming should be done, where player dedication is rewarded based on time both in and out of game, instead of just in game.

There has to be another way to make good MMOs besides creating time based gameplay. Its like playing Grand Theft Auto and trying to steal a car, then you see a message saying "You can only steal cars after waiting two days or killing 100 gangsters." 

The problem isn’t killing 100 gangsters; it’s that killing 100 gangsters get boring and dull after the first few. Games like WOW and such just made the grind really short, you don’t have to kill 100 gangsters to progress you only have to kill 10 so you are done with gangsters before they get boring. But it also leads to really shot grind, that tents to be fun because it doesn’t get repetitive.

In my opinion, WoW was very repetitive. It basicly had you killing mobs over and over again. They weren't the same mobs, but it still made me bored tears by level 15. (I know some people don't get bored as easily as I do.) I think you have a differant view on what exactly a grind is.

jezvin

Originally posted by Snotling

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by Snotling

Originally posted by Rhoklaw


The grind was implemented first in EverQuest and the reason being was because MMO's took on a new form of never ending gaming. How do you create a persistant online game without setting boundaries. Even with recent games such as World of Warcraft and City of Heroes, people are taking the grind to new limits by reaching max levels in months or even weeks and in some rare cases, days. You have to look at it from the developers point of view. You spend millions of dollars which can only be recovered if the game's longevity is there to keep people subscribed for atleast a year or two. The easiest way to keep people subscribed is of course to control their rate of leveling.
Perhaps one day, games won't require so much money to create and we could do away with "The Grind" so people can actually sit down and enjoy the game with everyone, instead of just those who level at the same pace as you. We all hate the grind, not because it makes the game progress so slowly, but because we miss out on the feeling of accomplishment. The grind when first introduced was actually a good idea and something everyone could live with. It wasn't until people started gaming hardcore or paying 3rd party levelers to get them to max level in a few days that games became pointless to play.
You are right though, the grind has been conquered because of 3rd party levelers and so a lot of games are being put on the shelf because no one wants to compete with that. Hopefully games like Eve Online will shed some light on how gaming should be done, where player dedication is rewarded based on time both in and out of game, instead of just in game.

There has to be another way to make good MMOs besides creating time based gameplay. Its like playing Grand Theft Auto and trying to steal a car, then you see a message saying "You can only steal cars after waiting two days or killing 100 gangsters." 

The problem isn’t killing 100 gangsters; it’s that killing 100 gangsters get boring and dull after the first few. Games like WOW and such just made the grind really short, you don’t have to kill 100 gangsters to progress you only have to kill 10 so you are done with gangsters before they get boring. But it also leads to really shot grind, that tents to be fun because it doesn’t get repetitive.

In my opinion, WoW was very repetitive. It basicly had you killing mobs over and over again. They weren't the same mobs, but it still made me bored tears by level 15. (I know some people don't get bored as easily as I do.) I think you have a differant view on what exactly a grind is.

WoW got repetitive when I got to 60 and had to do all the end game raids and dungeons over and over again. Also I think what I’m trying to say is that MMORPGs need a time consuming way to advance a character. Most games use a grind to do that, while eve uses real time to do it. I don’t really like any of those two ways.

Snotling

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by Snotling

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by Snotling

Originally posted by Rhoklaw


The grind was implemented first in EverQuest and the reason being was because MMO's took on a new form of never ending gaming. How do you create a persistant online game without setting boundaries. Even with recent games such as World of Warcraft and City of Heroes, people are taking the grind to new limits by reaching max levels in months or even weeks and in some rare cases, days. You have to look at it from the developers point of view. You spend millions of dollars which can only be recovered if the game's longevity is there to keep people subscribed for atleast a year or two. The easiest way to keep people subscribed is of course to control their rate of leveling.
Perhaps one day, games won't require so much money to create and we could do away with "The Grind" so people can actually sit down and enjoy the game with everyone, instead of just those who level at the same pace as you. We all hate the grind, not because it makes the game progress so slowly, but because we miss out on the feeling of accomplishment. The grind when first introduced was actually a good idea and something everyone could live with. It wasn't until people started gaming hardcore or paying 3rd party levelers to get them to max level in a few days that games became pointless to play.
You are right though, the grind has been conquered because of 3rd party levelers and so a lot of games are being put on the shelf because no one wants to compete with that. Hopefully games like Eve Online will shed some light on how gaming should be done, where player dedication is rewarded based on time both in and out of game, instead of just in game.

There has to be another way to make good MMOs besides creating time based gameplay. Its like playing Grand Theft Auto and trying to steal a car, then you see a message saying "You can only steal cars after waiting two days or killing 100 gangsters." 

The problem isn’t killing 100 gangsters; it’s that killing 100 gangsters get boring and dull after the first few. Games like WOW and such just made the grind really short, you don’t have to kill 100 gangsters to progress you only have to kill 10 so you are done with gangsters before they get boring. But it also leads to really shot grind, that tents to be fun because it doesn’t get repetitive.

In my opinion, WoW was very repetitive. It basicly had you killing mobs over and over again. They weren't the same mobs, but it still made me bored tears by level 15. (I know some people don't get bored as easily as I do.) I think you have a differant view on what exactly a grind is.

WoW got repetitive when I got to 60 and had to do all the end game raids and dungeons over and over again. Also I think what I’m trying to say is that MMORPGs need a time consuming way to advance a character. Most games use a grind to do that, while eve uses real time to do it. I don’t really like any of those two ways.

 

One MMO that seems to be getting rid of the grind is PotBS. Right as you enter the game, you can do anything you want, like raid ships or become a merchant. The closest thing to a grind is saving up money to buy a new ship.

nomadian

I agree I'd say mmorpgs are a bit too one-dimensional currently with the grind mentality, there needs to be more 'rpg' element or if there is grind, improve the gameplay so the emphasis is not levelling up to make your character super.
By the way, have you tried Guild Wars?

Aison2

there is no mmoprg without grind

its what keeps the players in longterm

take the grind away and you can only keep them by  constant content patches

that would be way more expensive then some grind mechanics

and since it works nice -why should they change it?



btw whats those games you mentioned?

full name would be nice

-aLpHa-

Originally posted by nomadian


I agree I'd say mmorpgs are a bit too one-dimensional currently with the grind mentality, there needs to be more 'rpg' element or if there is grind, improve the gameplay so the emphasis is not levelling up to make your character super.

By the way, have you tried Guild Wars?

Belive it or not you can grind for PvP too. Is there still a pointsystem in GW? You get some kind of Points and at a certain amount you can exchange them for Elitespells or spells in general.



So well yeah if you look it that way every MMO is some kind of Grind.

Snotling

Originally posted by Aison2

there is no mmoprg without grind

its what keeps the players in longterm

take the grind away and you can only keep them by  constant content patches

that would be way more expensive then some grind mechanics

and since it works nice -why should they change it?



btw whats those games you mentioned?

full name would be nice

You mean there is no MMORPG without grind currently.

By the way, LotRO = Lord of the Rings Online, TCoS = The Chronicles of Spellborn, and PotBS = Pirates of the Burning Sea.