General: Casual Play: A Guild Too Far

Stradden · January 2007

Steve Wilson's weekly column, Casual Play, follows the MMO thoughs of a non-hardcore player as he addresses the genre from that perspective. This week, he tackles Guilds in a column called "A Guild Too Far".

"Not bad back there, you know our guild is recruiting right now..."

I'll admit I was interested. It would be much better to have a pool of people to adventure with rather than always looking for pick up groups. It would also be a lot more fun in the battlegrounds to run with folks that saw it more as a team sport than a mob activity. The two players I'd hooked up with in order to venture through one of my rare forays into an instance seemed like decent guys. There'd been no arguing over loot or tactics, no berating of anyone in the pick up group, if their guild was the same it might not be a bad proposition. I'd be more than willing to help out when needed knowing there'd be a community to do the same for me. Guilds in online games are almost a requirement. I was plenty interested.

"Really? I've been sort of looking for a guild and would love to join the right one. I mostly enjoy the battlegrounds and would like to find a solid group to run with."

You can read the whole article here.

Kyleran · January 2007

Not sure what the point is Jon. Of course there are different types of guilds for different sorts of players. You prefer casual guilds, I've had some good times in them as well, but of course, there are guilds formed that have more structured goals and purposes.

Jon says hardcore, structured guilds can be elitist and look down at more casual players, however he's doing the same thing by mocking them for the work ethic, decrying that its not fun to attend meetings, raids etc.

But for those players, who's primary goal in the game is to experience all of the end game PvE raiding content WoW or some other game has to offer, its not a bad trade off. As Jon said... his guild's never seen the inside of MC... fine.. but other people wanted to take down Naxx...and it really can't be done without a well organized team. Organization has its price sometimes...you put up with rigid raiding schedules, raid leaders getting a bit hysterical when we wipe, healers getting yelled at for not healing (like, what else are they doing?) or who was the idiot who just pulled the boss before everyone was ready. (and getting /gkicked)

Sure, raiding isn't that fun for some folks, but I was in a raiding guild where the member really loved it... as long as they continued to make progress (and they got half way through Naxx before BC came along an invalidated it) so no reason to bang on them. They are willing to put up with the work, pain and suffereing to accomplish the games goals... you may not want to join them...but don't slam them either. (blame Blizzard for coming up with an end-game like this)

As for pre-formed or guild PvP groups excluding the casuals, not surprising, PUG players are considered to be less skilled, and mostly useless in their eyes, so why should they let other players share in their honor points? They are trying to fight together as a team... and have no use for the casual pick up player. Again, their choice, they can play the game they want to, they pay their money like anyone else.

tigris67 · January 2007

I can say that I absolutely agree 100% with this article here. I love the guilds that I've been in where there are around 20-25 people, all of which have their own personality and we would make jokes and join up with each other whenever we found the time or needed help with something. a guild is so much nicer when its a community of friends that feel comfortable around each other and help whenever the time comes up. I was in a diehard guild like the author mentioned above and it was fun the first time I looted some uber rare items for my character and all, but the cons such as the strictness of the guild and the fact that if you were to miss a meeting you were yelled at far outweighed the props of looting some little item.

I'm not saying that guilds "Should" be this or that. A guild should consist of a group of people that all have the same interests. Therefore if there is a guild full of raiders and incredibly serious players, than thats great for all their members because apparently thats what they all enjoy. Basically, just join a guild that has the same interests and goals as you, you'll enjoy the game more rather than joining a guild for the purpose of getting some uber item or because one of your friends happens to be in it.

jrgambit · January 2007

Totally agree with you on this one. I saw my small, friendly guild of about 10 people who I enjoyed playing with, questing, pvping, turn into a big guild focused only on raiding. In the end, I left.

Its a game, not a job, and lots of guilds seem to treat it like a job. Which is fine for them, but no for me.

Thamoris · January 2007

I couldn't have said it better myself. I run a guild in Horizons...( yes ..a few people do still play that game ) that emphsizes and takes pride in the fact that we are a casual guild. At times this has caused us to lose some high level ..long term members..but thats ok. We refuse to change our playstyle. Respect for ones time online is our top priority. I simply refuse to turn guild life into a job ...if that means I can't get Uber Death Sword of Kill Everything...that's A-OK with me. I have alot more fun with my mates online and trying to save as many newbies from the pitfalls of elite-ism. We actively recruit new players in our clan as a way of staying fresh. This also helps us curve that elite mentality as the old timers gain high levels.

We have structure and ranks within our clan..however I emphasize that the structure is there simply to enhance ones time in game. Quests are associated with gaining rank. Think of it as a mini-game one can play within our clan if they choose too. A Commoner is treated the same as Knight in our clan. I encourage our members to do what they wish with the rank they earn. Some people like to take a more role play approach..others prefer to just have more of say in guild issues.

We don't have any guild meetings. We encourage relationships outside of game. We would never require our member to wear a uniform. Participation in any guild events is purely optional and none would be frowned upon if they didn't attend. Complete respect for ones time in game is our focus!

Generaly speaking those elite type guilds are frowned upon by the majority of a games population. The only players that like the elite type guilds are members of other elite type guilds.

I have experienced great feedback from my members who appreciate our thoughtful approach to guild life. Many of whom would play under no other tag in any game we are present in.

In a nutshell...I think a guild is in game to serve it's members and not the other way around. I think THAT is the main difference in culture.

oronisi · January 2007

I don't think he's trying to make a point. He's just discussing how some guilds (alot of guilds actually) approach guilding for reasons that can clash with the casual gamer.

I've seen many good, relaxed guilds turn to crap when they've tried to 'step it up' and become like the hardcore, hardworking, acheivement-based guilds.

To each their own I guess...I guess Jon just feels like the hardcore guilds don't realize that not everyone wants to be in the uber respected cool kids club.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Not sure what the point is Jon. Of course there are different types of guilds for different sorts of players. You prefer casual guilds, I've had some good times in them as well, but of course, there are guilds formed that have more structured goals and purposes.

aqee · January 2007

This is in the eyes of a casual gamer remember that.
In many MMO's the casual and elitist gamers have a tendency of ending up fighting each others on forums.

The casual player "ruin" the fun for the elit and the other way around. The only way to get a nice community is to brake these 2 factions into diffrent games or servers.

Thing is that often the casual gamer want to do same thing as elitist people just that they want do it in their own time (PvE wise), PvP the elitist want to be #1 and casuals just want to "have fun".
Its hard to create a game for casuals only as you want to advance in the game or you quit. When you add something to advance in into the game the elitist players will have a goal also.

actmodern · January 2007

Hi Jon,

Did you consider that a guild with high standards expects you to show them a little initiative on your part before they'd let you into the guild they spent time building up? There are always token casual guilds with hundreds of people in them on almost every realm. They ginvite immediately, have zero requirements; the downside is that it's just as good as using the LFG tool. Some of them know what they're doing the others don't.

In your case I suggest doing a few things:

(1) Becoming a little more social and accepting the fact that people will have a filtering process.

(2) Check the guild list on the realm's forums and check out their websites.

(3) Try to group with some members before committing. Just send a tell and see what you get.

(4) Turning mmorpg.com into a real mmo site instead of having articles that border on emo player rants. Sorry, but that's all your article is.

Thamoris · January 2007

Originally posted by actmodern

Hi Jon,

Did you consider that a guild with high standards expects you to show them a little initiative on your part before they'd let you into the guild they spent time building up? There are always token casual guilds with hundreds of people in them on almost every realm. They ginvite immediately, have zero requirements; the downside is that it's just as good as using the LFG tool. Some of them know what they're doing the others don't.

In your case I suggest doing a few things:

(1) Becoming a little more social and accepting the fact that people will have a filtering process.

(2) Check the guild list on the realm's forums and check out their websites.

(3) Try to group with some members before committing. Just send a tell and see what you get.

(4) Turning mmorpg.com into a real mmo site instead of having articles that border on emo player rants. Sorry, but that's all your article is.

It's a valid discussion and he made several valid points. Stop using " emo " ..btw...you made a good post until you included that trendy and immature slang. Even my teenage daughter has stopped saying " emo" ..thank god.

Runny123 · January 2007

Originally posted by actmodern

Hi Jon,

Did you consider that a guild with high standards expects you to show them a little initiative on your part before they'd let you into the guild they spent time building up? There are always token casual guilds with hundreds of people in them on almost every realm. They ginvite immediately, have zero requirements; the downside is that it's just as good as using the LFG tool. Some of them know what they're doing the others don't.

In your case I suggest doing a few things:

(1) Becoming a little more social and accepting the fact that people will have a filtering process.

(2) Check the guild list on the realm's forums and check out their websites.

(3) Try to group with some members before committing. Just send a tell and see what you get.

(4) Turning mmorpg.com into a real mmo site instead of having articles that border on emo player rants. Sorry, but that's all your article is.

Yeah... This article sucks. There usualy is an application process to make shure your not a spy..ect

Lemacs · January 2007

I helped run a few and was an officer in a few Guilds and my overall view on this subject is that it come down to having to listen to people bitch on both sides. I don't pay my 15bucks to listen to that crap and it made the game suck. yeha I got into the end game but it was really not worth it at all because it end up make me hate the game. I can totaly agree with what you saying JON.

Thamoris · January 2007

Originally posted by aqee

This is in the eyes of a casual gamer remember that.

In many MMO's the casual and elitist gamers have a tendency of ending up fighting each others on forums.
The casual player "ruin" the fun for the elit and the other way around. The only way to get a nice community is to brake these 2 factions into diffrent games or servers.
Thing is that often the casual gamer want to do same thing as elitist people just that they want do it in their own time (PvE wise), PvP the elitist want to be #1 and casuals just want to "have fun".

Its hard to create a game for casuals only as you want to advance in the game or you quit. When you add something to advance in into the game the elitist players will have a goal also.

That's a good point.

Make a game for casual players and the elite types will " beat it " too fast.

Make a game for the Elite types and you will run off the casual player.

I would like to add though..your casual players tend to be the ones with jobs...and money. They subscribe for longer periods of time and hence....end up paying more money. Money they have because they have jobs. That is usually why they are casual to begin with. They have family and jobs. The casual player is more likely to have multiple accounts too to accomodate siblings and spouses.

The Elite types are often younger folks with more time on their hands or an adults still living in mom's basement...MAYBE holding down a part time job at 7-11. They burn through games faster and end money spent in game is often less than the casual player.

If I was creating a mmorpg...I would cater to the casual audience first. As a guild leader who prefers to have a good size guild...I cater to the casual player as well ....they continue their subs longer.

To each their own in the end...just the opinions of this here gamer dad.

delateur · January 2007

This was a great article that I thoroughly enjoyed. While I think perhaps it comes down a bit too hard on the elite guilds and the highly structured systems they use, it does adequately reflect how a casual player would view such guilds. The comments about not having Ventrilo or Teamspeak, however, need a bit more attention. Whether you're casual or hardcore, it is far more enjoyable to set up a VoIP server and remove the requirement to type conversations while in the game. I've met a handful of people that have servers set up for this purpose, and it is SO much nicer to just be able to talk normally. Yes, it makes it more difficult to roleplay, if that's your thing, but if you just want a means to quickly convey important information, VoIP is the way to go. It's not just for those who don't type very well, either. I type very fast, but I much prefer wearing a headset and focusing on the gameplay than I do trying to quickly type out a message while fighting for my life.

JK-Kanosi · January 2007

Originally posted by Thamoris

Originally posted by aqee

This is in the eyes of a casual gamer remember that.

In many MMO's the casual and elitist gamers have a tendency of ending up fighting each others on forums.
The casual player "ruin" the fun for the elit and the other way around. The only way to get a nice community is to brake these 2 factions into diffrent games or servers.
Thing is that often the casual gamer want to do same thing as elitist people just that they want do it in their own time (PvE wise), PvP the elitist want to be #1 and casuals just want to "have fun".

Its hard to create a game for casuals only as you want to advance in the game or you quit. When you add something to advance in into the game the elitist players will have a goal also.

That's a good point.

Make a game for casual players and the elite types will " beat it " too fast.

Make a game for the Elite types and you will run off the casual player.

I would like to add though..your casual players tend to be the ones with jobs...and money. They subscribe for longer periods of time and hence....end up paying more money. Money they have because they have jobs. That is usually why they are casual to begin with. They have family and jobs. The casual player is more likely to have multiple accounts too to accomodate siblings and spouses.

The Elite types are often younger folks with more time on their hands or an adults still living in mom's basement...MAYBE holding down a part time job at 7-11. They burn through games faster and end money spent in game is often less than the casual player.

If I was creating a mmorpg...I would cater to the casual audience first. As a guild leader who prefers to have a good size guild...I cater to the casual player as well ....they continue their subs longer.

To each their own in the end...just the opinions of this here gamer dad.

You are stereotyping entirely too much. Before WoW, most MMORPG gamers were hardcore, if hardcore is defined by a person who puts in 20+ hours a week and takes the game seriously, which is fun for them). For example, I am 26 years old, married, have a son who is already in school, but I am also a hardcore gamer, because gaming is my chosen hobby. I've played MMORPG's for around 4.5 years now, starting with Motor City Online and DAoC. Guilds at that time, that were made up of people like me had a filtering process, which basically was that you had to group with them first, to make sure that you were a mature minded person, and you had to read the guild charter and agree to it on their forums. Yes you had to make an effort to join the guild, but most things worth having require some effort.

With WoW, casual gamers entered the market a lot more and now they dominate the market, however, they are mostly secluded to WoW, so the more hardcore games still retain their hardcore community and game makers are still churning out games for both communities. My point is this, hardcore gamers have existed since the dawn of MMORPG's and kids really didn't start flooding in until WoW made its appearance. Granted, I've never played with people with PhD's, but I have played with many people that has graduated college and has a good job, blue collar workers who learned a skill or trade, and of course people who are just working odd jobs to get through life. Many had families of their own, some were in college, very few were under 19yrs of age, and other may have been living with their parents still while going to school. The point is that hardcore gamers are also likely to have good jobs and families as well, it is just that we have different priorities than casual gamers.

I for one like to Roleplay and MMORPG's is the only way for me to do that. I prefer to RP through adventure, not in a tavern, so I tend to look for guilds that support my playstyle and who are mature minded people. MMORPG's is like a second life for me, where I can be that Elf Wizard and fight powerful dragons, that I can't be in real life. For some, MMORPG's are a way to escape the tedium of life and their avatars are just tools to have fun. For others it is a hobby, to where it serves as a medium to live out another life, that we can't live out on Earth. And others look at MMORPG's as a competition sport, having to be the first or the best.

I am a hardcore gamer, but that is because I invest around 20 hours a week and I get involved with guilds that set themselves up like small governments. To each their own, but try not to stereotype people like me into something that is far from who I am in real life. It is insulting and I don't think you would appreciate it if I were to do it to you.

Thanks

Azurus · January 2007

Originally posted by actmodern

Hi Jon,

Did you consider that a guild with high standards expects you to show them a little initiative on your part before they'd let you into the guild they spent time building up? There are always token casual guilds with hundreds of people in them on almost every realm. They ginvite immediately, have zero requirements; the downside is that it's just as good as using the LFG tool. Some of them know what they're doing the others don't.

In your case I suggest doing a few things:

(1) Becoming a little more social and accepting the fact that people will have a filtering process.

(2) Check the guild list on the realm's forums and check out their websites.

(3) Try to group with some members before committing. Just send a tell and see what you get.

(4) Turning mmorpg.com into a real mmo site instead of having articles that border on emo player rants. Sorry, but that's all your article is.

From what I've seen, most casual guilds have just as strong a 'filtering process' as the elitist guilds. They just focus on different factors (wouldn't want to recruit an elitist by mistake, would we), and usually do all their recruitment-related stuff in-game (no applications and such).

The guild I'm in is a good example. Our GM puts a lot of effort into ensuring we only recruit mature, friendly players and, most important of all, players that don't expect 'progress'. Makes for a small guild in most games, sadly.

Oh, and actual ability to play isn't a factor, we can teach new players that (seriously, where do the big guilds think their recruits - you know, the ones who already know what they're doing - come from?). We can't teach a new player how not to be loot-obsessed, so we make sure not to invite them in the first place.

Chuckman · January 2007

Don't any of you jackballs realize that this article was not written by Jon Wood? It was written by Steve Wilson. I agree with "Steve's" article. I play a game to relax for awhile and have some fun. If I wanted to do some more "work" I'd stay and work more overtime at my real job. I was in a guild that moved from DAoC to WoW. A great bunch of people that were friends and fun to play with. Serious about progressing in the game and helping each other out but not anal about everybody being "required" to attend guild meetings or events. Then after moving to WoW the guild grew to being a bigger raiding guild, and most of the origional people just said screw this and left. Is raiding all the time really that fun anyway? Most people I hear talk about it on podcasts etc. say that it's not very fun at all but it's just the uber loot that keeps them doing it. Spending 6-8 hours a day raiding over and over again for a chance to get the uber gear? To me that's BS. I think it sucks that I have paid for a game that I will never be able to see alot of that content or that gear just because I'm more of a casual player and I'm not in a pain in the ass uber raiding guild.

Robbgobb · January 2007

I enjoyed the article and really feel the same way. I want to have fun not have a job. That does not mean that I am not willing to conform to the guild needs at times but rarely would that be more than twice a week and normally only once a week. Otherwise would just be hanging in guild chat for the conversation and looking to see who was on doing the same things I am.

The whole uniform and mandatory meetings and such is not for me. I understand some people really enjoy it but I don't have the time to tie myself to the computer. My real life actually means that getting up suddenly to climb into the bed and snuggle with my wife or go to the living room and hug and kiss her is actually something I want to do while playing. Going to see what my nephew is doing and bonk him in the head for fun is pretty important to me.

I can't give the hardcore guilds what they want and the one time I was part of one that was not too bad ruined the fun by asking me all the time to do raids. I did not realize before then that there were people would actually run through and instance and start over immediately again for as long as the raid group could keep going.

Originally posted by delateur

The comments about not having Ventrilo or Teamspeak, however, need a bit more attention. Whether you're casual or hardcore, it is far more enjoyable to set up a VoIP server and remove the requirement to type conversations while in the game. I've met a handful of people that have servers set up for this purpose, and it is SO much nicer to just be able to talk normally. Yes, it makes it more difficult to roleplay, if that's your thing, but if you just want a means to quickly convey important information, VoIP is the way to go. It's not just for those who don't type very well, either. I type very fast, but I much prefer wearing a headset and focusing on the gameplay than I do trying to quickly type out a message while fighting for my life.

This is something that I know will come along but at the moment is bad for me. I would stay lost doing this or depending on the time very quiet. My computer is next to my bed. Means if wife is asleep then I am for the most part quiet otherwise she asks what I am saying. I have 1 nephew and 2 nieces running around screaming and yelling and interrupting at any time. With chat I can scroll up and see what I missed. With VoIP I am missing the conversation and may never catch up.

Tsiya · January 2007

My guild has an application process. Mostly because even though we have no weekly meetings(forums, duh) or mandatory attendance requirements we are still #2 raiding guild on our server and faction. This brings in a lot of people who want OMGLEETPURPLZ, and that is really not what we're about.

Any guild that doesn't screen it's members isn't one I want to be in anyway. You end up with 500 members who have no clue what they're doing, end up begging constantly for instance runs and/or gold, and guild chat that is a sewer. I'll pass, thank you.

Thamoris · January 2007

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by Thamoris

Originally posted by aqee

This is in the eyes of a casual gamer remember that.

In many MMO's the casual and elitist gamers have a tendency of ending up fighting each others on forums.
The casual player "ruin" the fun for the elit and the other way around. The only way to get a nice community is to brake these 2 factions into diffrent games or servers.
Thing is that often the casual gamer want to do same thing as elitist people just that they want do it in their own time (PvE wise), PvP the elitist want to be #1 and casuals just want to "have fun".

Its hard to create a game for casuals only as you want to advance in the game or you quit. When you add something to advance in into the game the elitist players will have a goal also.