Sun Tzu & AoC

Laserwolf

Back when I was really heavily into UO(Pre-Trammel) I thought about it all the time. I constantly found myself day dreaming about great battles and the formation of PvP Empires while waiting for my chance to get home every afternoon and make all this a reality. I was younger then, 13-15, and so I was at an age where UO(my only experience with an MMORPG so far) seemed to be a game where anything was possible. I remember reading Sun Tzu's The Art of War at the time and really enjoying myself while thinking of all the ways I could become a leader and send an army of other players against an enemy army using the tactics I was reading about. Now that I am older and more experienced with MMORPGs I realize that this kind of thing wasn't really possible with UO. UO may have been the best Sandbox MMORPG ever created but it lacked the organizational mechanics that are required for guild vs guild or clan vs clan warfare.

Shadowbane was the only other MMORPG that came close to this but fizzled out early due to a lack of players and lack of any real non-pvp content. My hope though, is that Conan will be the kind of Sandbox MMORPG that also allows for this type of clan vs clan warfare. So far many of the described pvp and seige mechanics of the game seem perfectly suited for the tactics and wisdoms found in The Art of War. My only worry is a lack of population and too much restriction. The recent fly-over video and other such trailers make even moving across the world seem restrictive. Besides the paths shown everything else is at a much higher elevation or way too thickly covered with trees to be passable. It looks too much like Guild Wars and not enough like UO or even WoW. Open(Sandbox)-Gameplay has to be sacrificed for graphics and structured story lines. These latter two are great in Single Player Games but should never get the most attention in MMORPGs.

Anyway....these are my views thus far. Even if having the "High Ground" actually makes a difference in pvp or pvm combat I will consider AoC a great improvement over past MMORPGs as far as pvp/seige-warfare/and overall combat is concerned.

therain93

I can relate to this -- you may want to also investigate gods and heroes, it's an mmor-squad game that can probably replicate many of the formations, or at least will put us closer to the grand battles where such tactics can be leveraged.

Phobia

bleh Gods and Heros?  Is there even PvP squished in there?  Where is the glory in killing a NPC?

Maybe its just me, but I had the feeling that it was PvP tactics and strategy he was looking for?

checkthis500

Originally posted by Laserwolf


Back when I was really heavily into UO(Pre-Trammel) I thought about it all the time. I constantly found myself day dreaming about great battles and the formation of PvP Empires while waiting for my chance to get home every afternoon and make all this a reality. I was younger then, 13-15, and so I was at an age where UO(my only experience with an MMORPG so far) seemed to be a game where anything was possible. I remember reading Sun Tzu's The Art of War at the time and really enjoying myself while thinking of all the ways I could become a leader and send an army of other players against an enemy army using the tactics I was reading about. Now that I am older and more experienced with MMORPGs I realize that this kind of thing wasn't really possible with UO. UO may have been the best Sandbox MMORPG ever created but it lacked the organizational mechanics that are required for guild vs guild or clan vs clan warfare.
Shadowbane was the only other MMORPG that came close to this but fizzled out early due to a lack of players and lack of any real non-pvp content. My hope though, is that Conan will be the kind of Sandbox MMORPG that also allows for this type of clan vs clan warfare. So far many of the described pvp and seige mechanics of the game seem perfectly suited for the tactics and wisdoms found in The Art of War. My only worry is a lack of population and too much restriction. The recent fly-over video and other such trailers make even moving across the world seem restrictive. Besides the paths shown everything else is at a much higher elevation or way too thickly covered with trees to be passable. It looks too much like Guild Wars and not enough like UO or even WoW. Open(Sandbox)-Gameplay has to be sacrificed for graphics and structured story lines. These latter two are great in Single Player Games but should never get the most attention in MMORPGs.
Anyway....these are my views thus far. Even if having the "High Ground" actually makes a difference in pvp or pvm combat I will consider AoC a great improvement over past MMORPGs as far as pvp/seige-warfare/and overall combat is concerned.

I would say look elsewhere if you really want a sandbox MMORPG where military tactics are involved.  If you can bear with the SciFi genre, EVE is the only game that I've actually seen Sun Tzu style military tactics come into play.  Ambushes, Flanks, Head on attacks, Defensive Stands, Recon work that is actually useful. 

I've seen military tactics and plans that took months to come to fruition in EVE.  It's the only sandbox MMORPG out that can even come close to the tactics you're wanting in the game. 

AoC will offer what you seek in the PvP section of the game, but when you siege someone's keep you have to ask their permission by going to the castle and declaring a siege and them accepting. (This is the last info I heard about it, so I could be mistaken now)

To me that isn't true war, and I think if you can put up with having fleet battles instead of human battles, you'd love getting into a Military Oriented Corporation in EVE.   

Just thought I"d help out a bit.

therain93

Originally posted by Phobia


bleh Gods and Heros?  Is there even PvP squished in there?  Where is the glory in killing a NPC?
Maybe its just me, but I had the feeling that it was PvP tactics and strategy he was looking for?

From the FiringSquad.com review, it indicated you and your squad of 8 can be "pitted against NPC enemies and humans" (http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=13856) although I haven't seen much info on it.  Still, consider a 50 toon battleground mutliplied by 8 (you can have 8 followers), that's a lot of action and probably a lot of lag.  Never the less, you achieve epic proportions where Sun-Tzu maneuvering could actually make a difference.  So every PC isn't a grunt, instead they're a sergeant--that's still pretty cool.

Atleast wait until the game comes out before panning it.  Right now, it's opportunity.

Croe

Also The book The Art Of War mentioned terrain. (example : do not place your armyies back to the water or The high ground has more advantage) I think until terrain becomes an obsticle we can never truly acheave this.



 Its easy to say but terrain is an obsticle in games today. But is it really? if you fire an arrow from the top of the mountain at a player below will it kill them? or when a player at the bottom of that mountain fires an arrow at you will it hit you? what kind of damage do you think you should take? If i set a fire downwind of my enemyies camp will it blow on to thier tents and set them on fire? Another thing shouldnt you move slower if climbing or if your tromping through marshlands? and what about fatige? Surely you can't roam the desert all day and be freshly rested ready to fight. One can make the point that HP can represent fatige but you can still be tired and fight i mean thats possible right?



In a way i want the same thing you do but i also want it to count were you are. Th art of war wasnt solely about troop movements it was also about were its okay to put your troops and what kind of desions a General or Figure of authority at a certain moment in times of war. I would really like a terrian system of some sort im tired of running through marshes as fast as i walk on a road. ^_^ still waitin on a game like that myself.



P.s. yeah i know i have some minor spelling errors lets not call the grammar police

Sturmrabe

checkthis500 is entirely full of... is totally wrong.

Obviously a WAR fanboi:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/userPosts/253387

 

You dont' "ask permission", if you played Shadowbane you will familiar with the "go live" system for baning citites, it will be much like this and I've talked to one of the main PvP devs and he played SB extensively!

 

No siege in the history of civilization was a "suprise", you just can't move large forces in secret, and the go-live window, first used in SB and now here, is the only compromise that makes any sense at all between reality and the necessity of game mechanics.

Remember 4am banes? Ick!

This game will have all that made SB great, in the massive sieges for REAL rewards/losses, but have a balanced game where this actually IS more to do, and (lets hope, though i don't see how the couldn't succeed at this) less of the people dropping left and right due to lag/SB.exe

 

I still play SB since it went free as despite all the flaws and crap nothing NO-THING in any MMO has every gotten my heart pumping like mine fights and sieges there... I want all the questing of FFxi, the PvP of Shadowbane, and the stability of... the game that shall remain nameless

 

And I expect to get it!

 

Croe: Line of sight will definatly be in effect, and with full collision, "protect the squishies" formations, and Battlekeep walls you actually must break there will be terreign aplenty to deal with! And lets not forget swimming, climbing, and all other sort of goodies (and yes, theif CAN sneak into battlekeeps to cause havok, thought you won't get a large force in that way)

squeaky1

Well...according to Sun TZU, the greatest generals are those who win wars without ever fighting.  When they do fight, they do so in such a fashion that that outcome is decided before they ever take the field.  As a result, people never call them great generals and they never get recognized.

That's probably not what is wanted in a game.