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People leading Sigil are behind the times
Gonodil
Member Posts: 335
Now I was a big fan of everquest (played from 1999) and I would go back if SoE ever put in a good classic server, so don't think i hate "challenging games".
The problem I see with vanguard is that it ignores the needs of the people that actualy started playing this genere in their young age (I myself was 13 when I started playing EQ) but have since grown up and due to real life restrictions no longer have the time to get much fun out of a game that requires grouping and long distance travel.
A lot of us LOVE grouping, but we realy arent able to play games where we have to spend one hour looking for a group, one hour running to the camp, and then 30 mins to recover our corpse should we actualy die. (nor spend large sums of coin summoning our corpse...because if you cannot play a lot, how are you going to have tons of extra coin?)
Also, we dont have the free hours neccessary to look around and find the handful of soloable camps. (and one single pull mob in between 20 different group pull sets of NPCs isnt exactly easly accessable)
And please, don't give the "go play single player games if you want to solo" crap excuse. Few people WANT to solo, it's just impossible to get much grouping done in a 2 hour period. Now on the weekends, we might have a decent chunk of time in which grouping is practical, but I'd also like to be able to achive something measurable during a 2 hour play session on a work day....not crafting....not diplomacy. I want to kill something squishy, and be able to get a decent amount of experience from doing so (not asking for lvl 50, dragon loot, and glowy_uber_weapon01 in short order)
MMOs need to start catering to working adults as well as kids if they want to have a real chance of success.
Comments
There are plenty of MMOs out there that are tailored to your needs. Why does every single one have to be geared towards the casual gamer? I'm not a casual gamer, I don't live in my parents basement, I am independantly wealthy and have chosen to spend most of my time gaming. SWG was ruined by your particular point of view. You are entitled to it, but personally I find it very selfish. There are plenty of MMOs for casual gamers with more on the way. Let us have our ONE please.
So what you are saying basicly is every single MMORPG should be in casual mode? It's a hobby and the hobbiest will always find time for his/her passion.
Vanguard is more akin to D&D paper & pencil RPG's. It's a game you can play for many years to come. How much you play it depends on how much reasonable time you set aside for your hobby. If all you are concerned about is speed leveling then you yourself are not a 'casual gamer.' I would suggest that you just accept that Vanguard is not a 'disposable' MMO like most. It's an intelligent and enjoyably complex RPG for online play. Why are you in such a rush to level? If you have a demanding career and family responsibilities you will just have to play when you can, and get done what you can in the tie allocated. Should we really have to 'dumb-down' every single game in order to fit your life? If you set aside, say, 3 hours to play and can't get some stuff done, you should learn how to pay better. Kids can learn to pay Vanguard, I learned complex PnP games as young as six years old. If we keep 'dumbing' everything down our kids will follow suit. Hmm, definately a pickle for Developers nowadays. But why force grouping?? This is really an old concept that i feel needs to be re-examined.
I look foarward to Vanguard being released its the closest thing to what i want in a mmo currently. But i have to admit i enjoy soloing with the social aspect. Meaning while i am out Doing quests or Grinding Exps/craft/diplo i am out solo generally and i enjoy the conversations and the "CHOICE" to get in a grp later or when the opportunity arises. I do not think that making the entire game geared to Grps is going to ruin this game but i do think it will define its player base.
Sigil will be missing alot of those casual players who as the OP stated have matured since EQ1. While i find myself cast in the role of casual player more then i would prefer its a fact of life. Kids wife job and hobby. Its alot to juggle and when i have to set aside 4 hours for a grp cause i dont want to let those others in that grp down it makes RL that much more difficult. Luckily my wife and kids are all avid gamers so its not some taboo thing in my household to play for 4 hours at a time.
Still, i think Sigil should retool more of the solo content after release or at least add to it more. I remember in DAoC i could solo all the time and not feel left outside of the full game. I would sit and play read the regional chat and see some LFG for a dungeon in my level range. Those are the kind of situations that i enjoyed. Not forced but a nice way to get together and enjoy other content.
Oh well i am rambling cause its late and i can't sleep.
I only have time for a good group once or twice a week myself so a strictly group oriented game is not what I am looking for either. However I really think Vanguard need to focus on what it was originally intended to be. A group oriented, hard core game No way it will ever be a mainstream game now and I really think Sigil need s to get back to their original design and not attempt to be a jack of all trades game. There are too many other games coming out this year which will be focused toward the casual gamer and were designed that way from the beginning.
Vanguards performance issues can be over come, people upgrade their machines and what is a heavy engine today will play smoothly on newer hardware. Content can be added, animations smoothed etc. However poor design is a game killer. No one will dethrone WoW for a long time and I think newer MMORPGs need to identify their target audience and not try an beat WoW at their own game. There is a good market for group oriented games, and while it may not be a 50 server 1,000,000 subscriber market, never the less it could be substantial if a game targeted it and tailored their game to it. Vanguard could fill it if they refocus.
I miss DAoC
Sigil has always maintained a 20% raid, 20% solo, 60% group content.
I agree with these stats.
Group is the emphasis for this game, last count 70+ dungeons in the game.
Admittedly the dungeons don't appear til after 8th+ but the game builds you up with skills ready for your first bash.
Some may say 20% raid is a bit low, but we have to remember thats a large part of 35th+ and with 3 spheres of advancement to boot, it will only take the most harden no lifer to max out everything before the next expansion.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
I hate soloing. I refuse to solo and have quit games just because everyone was soloing and i couldnt find a group for days. I am not one of those lfg for an hour and quit people.
I will lfg for hours and hell even days. I cant stand wow because people only group up at higher levels in dungeons.
It irritates me to see 5 people running around killing mobs for a newbie quest when everyone could group up and kill less mobs and get the quest done.
I am not everybody and i dont force everybody to group nor do i start posts whinning about how few people group anymore unless they have to. I just respond to those that complain against my stand point.
If you wanna solo dont complain becuase it takes you longer to find mobs or to level. I ran around last night for 3 hour and found solo mobs all the way up to level 22 easily.
Think what people fail to realize is that it doesnt have to be extreme in one direction or the other.
A game where grouping gives better rewards/exp over soloing, while soloing is still productive is dumbed down somehow? Says who? People keep listing examples that dont match this system, you just list extremes where the entire game was made easier overall.
What would be the big deal with surrounding cities and easy to reach outposts with decent populations of soloable level appropriate content?
Btw, if you want decent games made, stop with the "well, it can only be a hardcore grinder or a overly simplified chat room" crap....these companies arent some independent developers working with ultra limited resources, these are major studios with giant budgets, learn to expect and demand more from them.
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
Many of us have been waiting for years to finally get the different game we wanted.
It's funny to see people jumping in an wanting to change a game into something else. Why don't you just go and play that something else in the first place ? 80% of the MMOs out there are made for you, so why are you coming here to complain ? If you want instant gratification that will get boring fast look somewhere else, this is not it.
Edit: regarding soloing, apart from the odd dungeons or bosses that really require a team, I haven't seen any problem ingame. The balance is as good as it gets for me. Grouping is no problem either. What you need is to find yourself a guild. This is an MMO, learn to play this kind of games. You need a guild with people you are close to; and you will get groups within minutes.
Amen, it's utter selfishness! The minute anything comes to market that is a little different, it has to be "changed" to suit the casual gamer. There are plenty of games for you people, move along! A balanced world involves mobs that cannot be soloed etc. This game has been marketed towards the "core" gamer from the beginning. Why are some of you so surprised?
I guess what I'm trying to say is a company can have a financially successful niche game (EVE) or a financially successful mainstream game (WoW, EQ1), but in this day and age when you're going for the mainstream market to compete head-to-head with WoW, you're going to want to take into account what the casual gamers' want in a game if you don't want to run the risk of going bankrupt in six months. Of course, failing at catering to either the casuals or the hardcore and instead making a messy mix of both will just lead to even more failure.
Personally, I can see VG getting about 150K or so subscribers initially. Whether that's enough and whether they stay around is another story altogether.
I remember brad saying in some interview, that they are aiming for 200k players and that with 500k he would call it a huge success.
WOW $45 mil a month LOL thats a
This game is not going for the mainstream at all; this is definately a niche game (BTW so was EQ1). This is a game where hours are to be spent and in groups; fine and you know what as long as it is loyal to its vision and to its true fans (those niche guys) then it will be a success and you will see it around for a good long time. Heck AC1 is still up and running after 7 years with 15K subscribers.
My opinion, Vanguard may vary well get over 500k subs.
There is TONS of solo content in this game. Between all the different areas you could solo up without any problem. You may have to travel a fair bit if you don't want to do ANY group quests and don't want to do ANY grinding (with such low downtime though grinding is pretty fun and fast IMO). For instance I went from the HE area to 3 rivers at level 10. This is more of a human/dwarf area. At level 15 I decided to check out the HE area at this level and there wer just as many quests and another dungeon.
My only problem is there seems to be a bit of a lack of trainers in this game. I reccommend binding by your trainer.
Thanks for the Brad link, it may well change my mind about giving Vanguard a try. Although a non raid server would really address many concerns of casual gamers, my concerns as well. 50 percent solo and 50 percent group or 40/60 solo/group isn't a bad choice for such an alternate server and would attract many who otherwise wouldn't give Vanguard a chance or those who would just quit because of the difficulty factor. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these niche factors in the game were part of what made Brad go back to SOE. Of course Microsoft would have had to agree or lose all of their investment in Sigil, I suppose.
Spiritglow
If you need group security then you will probably need to join one of those guilds that cater to your playing style. With so many duties and a family, guilds and established multi game groups like the Old Timer's and other laid back and semi hardcore guilds are the way you need to go.
In every MMO the best way to get to the top is to group, it is up to you to make sure you have your own team.
Also spamming LFG is a lazy way of procuring one in my opinion, if you want to group so bad then you really should either have joined a guild or create your own group when you log on. There are tons of people like you that are looking for groups, but don't take the initiative of finding one.
I am not taking a stab at anyone personally, just saying the same thing I usually say when I see this kind of post.
http://mentaltruancy.guildportal.com - Friendly Vanguard:Saga of Heroes Qalia based Guild.
Hehe... I'm sure this thread has spun into a IT'S GREAT, IT WILL REVOLUTIONIZE YOUR LIFE and IT IS THE SPAWN OF EVIL AND WILL EAT YOUR COMPUTER AND YOUR MOTHER AS DESERT kind'a discussion by now. They all seem to. Well, i only read the first few posts and was overcome by a feeling of being so... plain... OLD!! Dang. I played MUD back in the day (actually, I still played MUD until about five years ago)... I was working when EQ1 was released and it positively ruined atleast two customer projects, since me and my fellow co-workers spent more time in than out of game. Aah... those were the days.
Anyone else here around or above 30? I agree with the OP. It is getting a nuisance with games that holds too little for the soloing player, but still - I kinda feel (so far) that VG does? But then, I hate grinding. Really do. I usually level far slower than everyone else - but I seem to last longer and have more fun in the process... Strange.
Anyway, I don't love VG. But I like it - I will play it. you will see me online. Until then, ladies and gents!
;-)
//Petter
Spiritglow
Finally there's a new game being released where grouping isn't actively discouraged, penalised and hampered, finally a new game that actually allows those who play for the MULTIPLAYER in MMO to feel at home. Mainly solo games always have worse communities than cooperation friendly games in every MMO I've played over the last decade. I don't want to play in a bad community, I want a group game and I'm very relieved to finally get one that caters to this ignored section of the marketplace.
I'm obviously in a poor mood today and have no patience for another one of the "why can't VG penalise grouping more? threads" like every other solo or quasi MSORPG game on the market, just quit it. Either get better at making groups, deal with the massive amount of solo content in vanguard without whinging that those better at playing nice with the other kids will perhaps do a little better because the effort of sorting out a group is actually rewarded not penalised, or play one of the 9000 games catering to solo and leave the handful of games actually intended for social interaction alone.
My family & business might put constraints on my ability to group also, but I don't want another solo chore grinder with a community that makes me turn off chat channels, if I have to pay the price of actively making some groups of my own, finding and maintaining a good circle of friends and finding the right guild to support my particular playtimes & commitments, good, it's benefits are thoroughly worth it.
Group when you have a chunk of time, diplomacy, craft, harvest, solo, explore, and any of the many other activities (player merchanting, housing etc) when you don't have so much time at a stretch.
Finally we have a new MMO that DOES cater to adults, and you want them to turn it back into a clone of the rest of the market?
Spiritglow
I like that VG isn't that way, and get a little tired of people suggesting it should be changed to be the way all the other recent & upcoming MMO's are geared, if that makes me somehow insecure & needy in your eyes hey whatever floats your boat. I have little trouble finding or starting groups in general thanks & never have no matter what class or MMO I've been playing.
There are plenty of MMOs out there that are tailored to your needs. Why does every single one have to be geared towards the casual gamer? I'm not a casual gamer, I don't live in my parents basement, I am independantly wealthy and have chosen to spend most of my time gaming. SWG was ruined by your particular point of view. You are entitled to it, but personally I find it very selfish. There are plenty of MMOs for casual gamers with more on the way. Let us have our ONE please.
This is to you Sharkypal. and everyone else who thinks like him.
Why should every MMORPG be tailored to you no life gamers who spend form the time you wake until you sleep infornt of the computer on a game?? why should every one be made for people like you?
Not all of us have the time and not all of us are willing to live our lives for the game. Some of us have RL things we have to do, Some of us have familys, kids, husbands and wives we have to take care of.
We're not all little school kiddies who have nothing to do but game all day and night.
So why should all of the games be made for people like you?
When you get all growen up you'll be thinking the same too, when your not living in mommys or daddys basement. when you have other things in life to do then sit infront of the computer all day.