In my opinion the key to reviving roleplaying in MMORPGs is player-run content.
How many of you have had great ideas for an MMORPG? I've had lots of great ideas that I know I'll probably never be able to manifest. In all my MMORPG ideas the key is giving players the tools and freedom to choose how they want their world to be! The modern gamer is a simple and shallow creature, but I'm convinced their eyes can be opened if they realize that MMORPGs can give them the opportunity to live a life they only dreamed of moments before waking. Imagination is something we all have as human beings and if games aren't teaching us to exercise this gift then what is the purpose of gaming? We need to find some way to convince developers that players can make a world better than they can if we are given the chance. Let us PK each other! Let us form our own governments! Let us argue and bicker! These experiences and interactions may seem like chaos in the beginning, but it's human nature to build communities and that's what MMORPGs need: real communities created by the people who inhabit them.
Did that make any sense? I get the feeling I was ranting more than anything.
=========== The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us! The Guild.
Well, I liked the post but concerning stargate and originality I dunno.
Taking big brand names and trying to use them to innovate the genre is a bad idea IMO- Its hard enough just to capture the original tv show/books/movies and make people feel like they are truely playing a game in the respective world. Trying innovative things is better left to other games that can 'afford to fail'.
Take SWG for example, SWG had sooo many new things never seen in MMOs before. Tons of different professions along with skill point system that allows you to choose from multiple professions really customizing your character to fit you, entertainer professions, including a profession deticated to changing the way other characters look, great character customization like nothing seen before, the whole HAM system where if you run out of action or mana points you are incapacitated so you have to juggle all three using your skills and attack the enemy according to what their HAM is like and where their skills are heavy, housing with more house customization than even mmos today, player cities including a profession deticated to politics, players vote for their cities mayor ect, dynamic quests where npcs spawn across the galaxy to give out quests at random, the quests been dynamic as well spawning buildings and such where players arent looking and telling players to go kill enemies there for the dynamic quest, the whole TEF/PvP flag system, the whole economy with armorsmith, weaponsmith, architect, tailor branching from artisan, scouting for and harvesting resources by placing harvesting machines over resources which move from area to area dynamically, the split gameplay between avatar and ship combat, the whole customizable space ship thing where you can walk around in a space ship while its in space and dock with other ships, the unique races- actually having the nerve to not allow an entire race to wear armor at all to follow lore- no wookie armor- that was certainly brave and different, and a biggie is the whole jedi thing, the idea of a single uber class that is mysteriously unlocked leaving the swg community confused for over half a year before starting to figure out, then there are vechs that can hold more than one person at a time, mounts that you dismount and they dont magically dissappear but instead follow you around and help you kill enemies, the whole creature handling profession was amazing with tons of different commands for your pet giving you complete control over them, the whole macro creation system, the whole UI system was surprisingly customizable for its time, the way you can go prone or kneel for better accuracy, battle fatigue/wounds that have to be healed by doctors, ect...
When SWG released, eveyone hated it. Because of bugs, but most reviews, especially ones from non-mmorpgers, hated it simply said it was boring and didnt feel like starwars. Hence the NGE, and the removal of almost every innoventive feature I mentioned above... Brand names have big expectations, they cant go around trying new things when they already have so much to live up to.
My my, what a beautiful thread! I almost have a tear in my eye I am not going to rant in here, because you can simply click http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/116008 and see it there. I compltey agree with OP 100%, and many people that are posting here. Great stuff guys. I too want a game that is new and innovative.
Let me ask you all a question: What do you think of classes:
Taking big brand names and trying to use them to innovate the genre is a bad idea IMO- Its hard enough just to capture the original tv show/books/movies and make people feel like they are truely playing a game in the respective world. Trying innovative things is better left to other games that can 'afford to fail'.
Take SWG for example, SWG had sooo many new things never seen in MMOs before [...]
When SWG released, eveyone hated it. Because of bugs, but most reviews, especially ones from non-mmorpgers, hated it simply said it was boring and didnt feel like starwars. Hence the NGE, and the removal of almost every innoventive feature I mentioned above... Brand names have big expectations, they cant go around trying new things when they already have so much to live up to.
Oh, a really nice recapitulation you did there! And I agree to the full quote.
However, I don't think big game IPs and game design innovations seclude each other per se.
Though I admit I struggle myself to find reasons as why pre-CU SWG was perceived in such a bad way in the computer gaming industry. At least for me finding an answer to this question is of significance for future game development.
pre-CU SWG (as well as the old Ultima Online) had many aspects that put it way ahead of these games that ironically call themselves "3d Generation" MMORPGs nowadays.
But why did SWG fail to attract the masses? Maybe we need to discuss first, if that's even what "we" want "attract the masses"?! I think a game like WoW is successful because it goes well with casual gamers in it's "PVE sphere" and still attracts longtime grind type players with it's "raid sphere" content apart from it's obvious newcomer friendliness.
However both of these type of players can usually not be attracted by a "sandbox style" virtual world offering you the freedom to do whatever you want.
Why is that people experience such freedom as a boring thing?
Well, one reason I could imagine is that many young players play MMO(RP)Gs as a distraction from school, they just want to log in and be involved in some kind of adventure that's far away from their daily routine. (going to school by bus, going home doing homework and such ;=) These type of player wants to be "entertained" and get sidetracked by story lines someone else thought out to feel comfortable. Just like the manager in her 30 ties coming home from work and doing nothing but watching a movie before going to bed.
The manager too just wants some distraction, but as much as the kids she doesn't want to play a full blown virtual 2nd world competition game. There is enough "stress" in the real world job already. The kids however don't really have the motivation to dig deep enough in a game to accomplish goals that maybe equally challening like real world goals. For example to become a mayor in a "virtual town".
So who are the people craving to reach such goals? I think it's mostly students (with lots of free time on their hands, searching for competition not only in stats and items but also in socialization and creativity) or housewives (with equally much time, though those usually won't fancy to play in a SC-FI world but might rather go for "Sims" style games, at least I know some that do).
So to get back to our imaginary virtual world, the kids like to compete with each other by playing the "superhero" type of character, to expect them to investigate the deeper game mechanics of a game like pre-CU SWG is therefore wishful thinking at best.
In the end you can play every game your way, yeah you can even play a game without playing the game. Let that sink
However the kids are one major target audience for the game publisher (not necessarily for the game developer), so to get back to our SWG example, with NGE the game was adapted to this audience and their wishes. Here: I want to play a Jedi, NOW!
So one question that becomes obvious now is, is developing a game which outdoes the "WoW style gameplay" in complexity and comes close or even surpasses pre-CU SWG a worthwhile option for a publisher, or is the market you are catering so small you will never get back your investment. Assuming you count games for people like students or people with "lucky jobs" that allow much freetime a niche market, we assume further the goal of your crew is to develop a blockbuster type game
Is there a way to integrate the 14 year old who wants to be this dread knight, everyone is afraid of... and the manager from above who likes to play her healer druid laughing at the goofy movement of the char in our yet to be made complex virtual world sandbox without alienating those who expect more depth in a game? SWG NGE wasn't it that much we know now
Another thing that is up to discussion is wether which impact the "theme" of your game has. Do less people enjoy SC-FI worlds like Star Wars, Matrix or Eve and actually prefer the fantasy setting with orcs, trolls and elves?
Anyway, who really wants to play a game that is a carbon copy of your reallife? Just imagine you had a room full of rockstars looking for some distraction, now I don't want to be the one introducing them to this brandnew MMORPG allowing you to play a rockstar As silly as this example may be, people usually love to act out fantasies that are different from what they do in real life.
When you can fascinate folks with Indiana Jones and Star Wars (or Titanic and Pride and Prejudice *blush*) it should be possible to include their recipes for success in our virtual world too. By allowing our game designers to let you experience such themes without limiting players to an old mud style game design looking at long columns of numbers or restrict ourselves to character classes and linear gameplay progression with player levels.
I'm almost sure levels are the root of all evil... I mean c'mon, I bet Darth Vader was Level 96 and Luke was maybe 100, totally imba
In response to Ghost12's poll, I'm pleased to see that the majority of voters chose option three.
Classes and levels are both bad in my opinion. Even visible stats are bad, in my humble opinion, especially for a roleplayer. I would love to see a game that focuses on all aspects of the world equally. This means that while one player can be content as a wandering swordsman, another can settle down in a town or city and open a restaurant. The only game that offered this sort of experience was Tatsumaki: Land at War; but that game doesn't seem to be getting anywhere and I don't imagine it ever will for various internal reasons.
Anyways, by allowing players to choose a path beyond beating up monsters or other players would open a lot of doors and windows for MMORPGs as a whole. This would pave the way for virtual communities that really feel like living communities. Isn't that what we all want?
I'm deviating from my point... I'm a roleplayer deep down and that's what I want from an MMORPG. Removing levels and stats would really allow players to tread their own path and would break a lot of chains that restrict us currently. Why force a player to follow a certain path and become a cookie-cutter button-masher when they can become something original every time?
Focus on skills and character knowledge. If a player wishes to learn a new sword technique, then seek out an NPC that knows the technique. Or even better, find a player who has already been taught this technique by said NPC. Likely the NPC that can teach you this technique will have you complete some difficult task(s) to prove you are worthy of it, so players will be inclined to do the same if someone comes asking, am I right? Eventually NPCs will become less focused on as players will be able to learn skills from each other. This forms a living community.
This method could be used with all sorts of players and it would allow players to mix and match their skills to fit whatever they are planning. Knights, archers, chefs, farmers, fishermen, traders, miners, hunters, politicians, musicians, artists, thieves, mercenaries, village idiots... Anything is possible. As characters experience more things within the game their knowledge-base will increase as well.
I get the feeling I'm ranting again, so I'll end it here. Tell me what you think! Tell me your ideas! I'm interested in what you all think is the solution!
If you ask me what the best solution for reviving MMORPGs is I will tell you the solution is player-run content. What would you say?
=========== The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us! The Guild.
Great thread! I'm gonna use anogoly here - rap. You know, rap as music? Yes. If you don't like rap or mybe you just listen to it from time to time, all you know of rap is (current) Eminem, 50Cent and couple of others black dudes that I'm not gonna name since they all look alike. Now I don't mean this as some KKK member "All damn n*ggers look the same", but as musics they all copy each other. It's all commercialized - money, money, money! Just tune in MTV and you'll know what I'm talking about. They put up a smoke screen in a form of sick beats and when you hear it for the 1st time you might like it and think it's kinda good. But once you try to listen to it again - listen to the lyrics... It's empty, it's trash, it's pathetic. B*tch, b*tch, b*tch, bling, bling, bling, n*gga, n*gga, n*gga and that summons about 90% of current rap. Why is like that? Becouse it's all about money! Some random Britny Spears fan (read = some one from 12 to 16 years old) doesn't want to listen to complex lyrics, doesnt want to find meaning in the musics - they just want a sick beats and a buffed up n*gga with 2 kilos of golden chains. And that kind of music sells!
But... Go a bit in to the past when current "bling bling" rappers were underground (take Eminem for instance... or just any UG rapper now). Back then they were not in to the rap becouse of the money! They were rapping becouse they liked it, they wanted to say something, there words had meaning and they made sens.
And it's same s*it with games! Back in the ol' days game devs were gamers themself. They loved it, they enjoyed it. Some gamer with bit of programing skill (or even no programing skill at all) tought it would be cool to have a game where 1000s and 1000s of players would meet and play togather - and he made it! He didn't copy it since there was nothing to copy it from, he played it and he loved it! But then somewhere along the line he started making money... And one thing went to the another and now you have 8 mil players AND YOU WANT EM ALL! It's no longer about enjing the game, devs don't play games anymore and if they do play em, it's some crap game that they are trying to copy, that was already copyed from another copy of a copy...
It's commercialized! It's very simple math: Ivest as little as possible = work as little as posible = spend less money on dev; and then hope that 8 mill kids will jump your game and you will be rich as them "rappers"! They could make a game... Sand box game... Easy to get in to, hard to master? Hmmm... Don't all say that about there games? When I hear "hard to master" ... I kinda do have a vision of raiding some hole for 4 houres every day or a week for 1 year... What's there to master about that? How not to cancle sub after 3 raids?
Pre-CU SWG had most of it in... All they needed to do is to work on bugs and mybe do the "tutorial" missions that we have today a bit earlier. It was now easy to get in to, and it was hell of a hard to master it. But we loved it! "WoW kids" didn't like it... And who's to blame em. Every one has a different taste... I personaly love my 1st experiance in SWG... When was your last time that you were actualy LOST inside a game? I was lost in SWG... Just went 1000m out of the Mos Eisly and I was in the middle of destert. And I LOVED it! It was my own epic quest with blue reward to get back and it was a blast. I will for ever remember those moments. Were you ever lost in WoW? And I don't mean that you couldn't find a mob you had to kill... But actualy lost in the void of endless world?
So... It's sad and I don't like it... But I don't think I will ever be lost again. Thank you devs and bling bling rappers! I love the s*it you'r putting out!!!!! Moooore, moooooreeeee!
Every time I read your post, I die a little inside...
Great thread! I'm gonna use anogoly here - rap. You know, rap as music? Yes. If you don't like rap or mybe you just listen to it from time to time, all you know of rap is (current) Eminem, 50Cent and couple of others black dudes that I'm not gonna name since they all look alike. Now I don't mean this as some KKK member "All damn n*ggers look the same", but as musics they all copy each other. It's all commercialized - money, money, money! Just tune in MTV and you'll know what I'm talking about. They put up a smoke screen in a form of sick beats and when you hear it for the 1st time you might like it and think it's kinda good. But once you try to listen to it again - listen to the lyrics... It's empty, it's trash, it's pathetic. B*tch, b*tch, b*tch, bling, bling, bling, n*gga, n*gga, n*gga and that summons about 90% of current rap. Why is like that? Becouse it's all about money! Some random Britny Spears fan (read = some one from 12 to 16 years old) doesn't want to listen to complex lyrics, doesnt want to find meaning in the musics - they just want a sick beats and a buffed up n*gga with 2 kilos of golden chains. And that kind of music sells! But... Go a bit in to the past when current "bling bling" rappers were underground (take Eminem for instance... or just any UG rapper now). Back then they were not in to the rap becouse of the money! They were rapping becouse they liked it, they wanted to say something, there words had meaning and they made sens. And it's same s*it with games! Back in the ol' days game devs were gamers themself. They loved it, they enjoyed it. Some gamer with bit of programing skill (or even no programing skill at all) tought it would be cool to have a game where 1000s and 1000s of players would meet and play togather - and he made it! He didn't copy it since there was nothing to copy it from, he played it and he loved it!
But then somewhere along the line he started making money... And one thing went to the another and now you have 8 mil players AND YOU WANT EM ALL! It's no longer about enjing the game, devs don't play games anymore and if they do play em, it's some crap game that they are trying to copy, that was already copyed from another copy of a copy... It's commercialized! It's very simple math: Ivest as little as possible = work as little as posible = spend less money on dev; and then hope that 8 mill kids will jump your game and you will be rich as them "rappers"! They could make a game... Sand box game... Easy to get in to, hard to master? Hmmm... Don't all say that about there games? When I hear "hard to master" ... I kinda do have a vision of raiding some hole for 4 houres every day or a week for 1 year... What's there to master about that? How not to cancle sub after 3 raids? Pre-CU SWG had most of it in... All they needed to do is to work on bugs and mybe do the "tutorial" missions that we have today a bit earlier. It was now easy to get in to, and it was hell of a hard to master it. But we loved it! "WoW kids" didn't like it... And who's to blame em. Every one has a different taste... I personaly love my 1st experiance in SWG... When was your last time that you were actualy LOST inside a game? I was lost in SWG... Just went 1000m out of the Mos Eisly and I was in the middle of destert. And I LOVED it! It was my own epic quest with blue reward to get back and it was a blast. I will for ever remember those moments.
Were you ever lost in WoW? And I don't mean that you couldn't find a mob you had to kill... But actualy lost in the void of endless world? So... It's sad and I don't like it... But I don't think I will ever be lost again. Thank you devs and bling bling rappers! I love the s*it you'r putting out!!!!! Moooore, moooooreeeee!
Hmm interesting pov. but man you had to bring up swg *sniff sniff*
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Here's the problem: Most of the people that have the imagination to conceive the game, dont have the money to produce and distribute the game. That's why you see the same tired formula of grind, level, endgame raid and PvP. It's the way the system works; find something that is popular (i.e. makes ton of cash), copy it, then produce your own version, rinse and repeat. I've played pen and paper RPGs for years, and until the MMOs hit, there was nothing better on the market for interactive gaming. Unfortunately the PnP industry took a big hit, especially D&D (i.e. Wizards of the Coast), by producing a new version of their game every 1.5 years. This meant that you went out and bought about 10-15 books at $29.99 a piece, then 18 months later a revamped version of the game came out, and made your neat little book collection obsolete. That's why I stopped buying and playing PnP games; I couldn't afford the cost to keep up with the revisions that the companies were putting out.
So, what is the state of games now? Gamers want the following: 1. Immersion: We want to fell like heroes, make us apart of the game's lore and history. 2. Innovation: No more grind, no more kill quests, no more of the same tried formulae. 3. Not too easy, no too hard: A game should be easy to learn, but hard to master (i.e. chess).
It sounds really simple, but putting those pieces together has been difficlut to say the least. Just look at your typical gamer's shelf of games that promised inovation and fun, but fell short on both accounts.
I didn't read the whole thing sorry but i have a couple responses to tell you.First up,you can't keep using WOW as the idea of doing things right.You mention 8/10 solo,well do you know why this is so?This is because WOW has the largest RMT market in the world.Players can just go out an buy all the top gear they want level after level,wich is prolly why they just want end game so much.They want to just buy there top end gear once and be done with it.
The other part about all games being the same ,is true however,this is called content.You have to have game filler.Otherwise it is just a first person shooter or just and endgame to be played.Your real beef should be the lack of content or ingenuity in the content.Myself i understand the time line and cost these companies have to endure,so spending too many resources on the thought process [content]is a tough call.These games need thousands of quests to keep all players at every level happy.That alone could take a year to be able to achieve that many GOOD ones.The mapping that goes into the massive world we all want ,takes an enormous effort,so you can see why we are not getting the content we want.
I am sure they know how to do it,and can do it,but cost wise WON'T do it.The smart way to manage a game is put out the bare product,then if the game achieves a profit,you bring in content with updates.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by earthhawk We want to fell like heroes, make us apart of the game's lore and history.
Not at all my dear friend. Now I'm gonna use Pre-CU SWG again (we just can't let it RIP). I never dreamd about becoming a Jedi, mybe I tought it would be cool to be a Jedi but I just didn't have strenght to do it nor did I want to do it, plus there were tons of other stuff I liked more. What could it be? Crafting! I don't know why but I was addicted to crafting. It was... game within a game! And best thing about it I was in contact with other people at all time, selling stuff, buying stuff, working the deals. I just loved to bartn with some one, no matter how expensive or cheep the item is, I loved to bartn
But in some way I did feel like those Jedi players (this is deep pre-Cu where Jedi was a rare sight and it was an honour to see one). Walking in Mos Eisly with Master Doc over my head got me a lot of nice chet. Newbs walking up to me asking for a cheap buff, ofc I buffed em for free and they were sso thankfull - just like I was when I started, when people were helping me. But I remember one moment, me walking in to the cantina in Mos Eisly... There was a like 5 newbs that formed a band (entertainers), when I walked in they were all like "hay doc! how you doing" and so on, they asked for one buff in a very nice way - don't remember the exact words, they said they had couple of credits they can pay me, I buffed em all for free and they just couldnt thank me enough. As I was walking out one yelled "Hey doc! I'll remember you, just know that you'll have free entetainer here all the time", something like that. I just felt... Like a real doc that just saved like 10 ppl from death. I mean I just gave em a buff, didn't mean much to me, but just how nice people were to you when you helped em. Really the best community I was ever part of (for instance best thing you get in WoW is "Plx buff kk?" and if you'r lucky "Ty"... And God forbits that you play a priest in BG and some one on the other side of BG dies... "HEAL NOOB FFS!!!!111"). Oh look at me... I could talk all day long about sweet memories from SWG. Damn I hate SOE...
Every time I read your post, I die a little inside...
(Just a quick note to the original thread starter Ramzeppelin: I keep on picking on the original Star Wars Galaxies game because it includes so much of what you requested you'd like to see in a MMORPG, so even if you never got a chance to check it out I still hope you can find something useful in my posts)
Yay, I know rap! whenever I go shoppping people look at me hard cuz i wear enough gold to tie a dog in the yard
Actually I'd like to take your example to demonstrate in which direction I'm thinking right now. Imagine the MMORPG as an open space event like a rap music festival.
Rap is the "theme", though you have different artists in every tent for different folks.
In the main stage area (biggest tent) you got Eminen, 50Cent and so on ... but there's also a somewhat smaller tent where Humpty Hump spins the discs playing Grand Master Flash, Mantronix, Electric Knights and some kickass electro of course Humpty only bridges the time until the Blackalicious crew fixes their live drumset
Along some alleys we even find few stand up comedians doing mini shows for the passer-bys. I leave it to reader what they could be in our little analogy
So that's how our ideal MMORPG should be too, you should have as many "spheres" in game as possible and let the audience choose to go wherever they want.
However as we know now, there are different player types. Like people who like to socialize, people who like to explore stuff, people who enjoy crafing, people who like fighting and hunting and some who like a bit of all.
Also there are people who want to be entertained by quest story lines and others who actually roleplay and invent new content for others. We need to bring these different types of players together in our "sandbox".
The quest type player should never feel lost in a big world but should have points of interest to go where quests, story and adventure waits. There should be solo content as well as group content.
I never thought there would be people who actually enjoy the "leveling part" and want some number to feel they have accomplished something in a mmorpg. We can deal with those too, we could create mini games in our sandbox world that mirror this playstyle.
For example you'd visit an NPC in some hunter guild and could get badges and symbols and medals to take home or adorn your gear or vehicles with. So they would have fun and rewards killing x numbers of crits, but won't get in the way of our idea of a no fixed classes and no linear level progression virtual world.
There is no need for classes as our avatars will become specialized in something by doing it. Of course we need a crafting, harvesting and housing system that builds on the ideas of SWG and maybe even takes them further.
We could even implement a karma or religion system and make the players actions influence how not only players but also NPCs deal with them (a bit like in the fun game "Fable" but not as simplistic as having NPC factions with KOS lists .... duh!).
I think the question I brought up as why pre-CU SWG failed is a two parter that still needs to be answered.
I think I know the answer to one part (the last one) when SWG was transformed to SWG:CU and a bit later SWG:NGE , the developers abandoned at least three types of players. The socializer type (as entertainer services became redundant except for roleplayers), everyone who enjoyed roleplaying (because they invented levels and mangled the original game design) and the crafter type (economy was killed by removing decay).
I never was much of a fighter back then but as I recall those who were into fighting and pvp were not happy either, though most changes were done for this type of player.
Okay, but why was pre-cu SWG before the collapse with all those mentioned systems and spheres not able to attract more players first place? I think the game designers failed to deal with the "quest type" of player and with gainful occupations for those who were used to "level" and missed this kind of numeric feedback coupled with loot rewards. The roleplayer, of course, instantly felt at home .
I think for a future MMORPG we need to give all these different types of players a home, because just catering one group won't bring in enough subscriptions to become a sound project. We already have WoW.
One thing crossed my mind I don't want to discuss in here, but nevertheless mention it. Maybe some people don't want too much of this freedom in our virtual sandbox, because the "game" suddenly becomes as "complex" as real life and the reason they play is just the opposite, to "escape" this complexity and be just that, a cookie cutter hero doing simple but fun things and getting rewards. Might be worth a topic when I find the time.
Sorry for my grammar, I was really in a rush today!
It makes me sad how many times Pre-CU SWG is brought up in this post however. It doesnt surprise me though as it was the closest thing we have had to what was described by the OP.
I disagree with anyone who says it can't be done in an MMO environment- one of my fondest gamplaying memories is playing Planetside a good couple of years ago- you had to learn how to handle your chosen weapon, you had to learn how to work well in a small squad, and also the limitations of your factions equipment. Once I learned how to propely lead a target with my gauss gun, and the myriad possibilities of grenade launchers both indoors and out in the open, I actually trained *myself* to a higher level to work well in a squad- that, for me, is a far greater achievement than some arbitrary levelling up of some background stats. A good, well coordinated and mature squad could take on all-comers and sometimes beat off incredible odds, which is about as good as online gaming gets, in my opinion. Bear in mind this involved 200-odd people all shooting projectile weapons and driving vehicles in a resonably complex environment.
This really struck a chord. I've been playing Gears of War Online and have been having more fun than I've had with an MMO in years. One of the key components of that is I can feel myself getting better. I'm leading the target now, aiming better, utilizing the weapons and enviorement better, working with my teammates better. Granted the gameplay is in small doses but my point is the tools are there for you to pave your own way with the game. To be as good as you make yourself to be.
I think this ideal for the real next generation of MMO's. No numbers telling you that your sword skill increased and you can hack and slash newbs by default but your ownability to take on 3 different people at once because they literally aren't as good as you. That would be a much better indication that you are getting better than numbers floating over your head.
Comments
How many of you have had great ideas for an MMORPG? I've had lots of great ideas that I know I'll probably never be able to manifest. In all my MMORPG ideas the key is giving players the tools and freedom to choose how they want their world to be! The modern gamer is a simple and shallow creature, but I'm convinced their eyes can be opened if they realize that MMORPGs can give them the opportunity to live a life they only dreamed of moments before waking. Imagination is something we all have as human beings and if games aren't teaching us to exercise this gift then what is the purpose of gaming? We need to find some way to convince developers that players can make a world better than they can if we are given the chance. Let us PK each other! Let us form our own governments! Let us argue and bicker! These experiences and interactions may seem like chaos in the beginning, but it's human nature to build communities and that's what MMORPGs need: real communities created by the people who inhabit them.
Did that make any sense? I get the feeling I was ranting more than anything.
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Well, I liked the post but concerning stargate and originality I dunno.
Taking big brand names and trying to use them to innovate the genre is a bad idea IMO- Its hard enough just to capture the original tv show/books/movies and make people feel like they are truely playing a game in the respective world. Trying innovative things is better left to other games that can 'afford to fail'.
Take SWG for example, SWG had sooo many new things never seen in MMOs before. Tons of different professions along with skill point system that allows you to choose from multiple professions really customizing your character to fit you, entertainer professions, including a profession deticated to changing the way other characters look, great character customization like nothing seen before, the whole HAM system where if you run out of action or mana points you are incapacitated so you have to juggle all three using your skills and attack the enemy according to what their HAM is like and where their skills are heavy, housing with more house customization than even mmos today, player cities including a profession deticated to politics, players vote for their cities mayor ect, dynamic quests where npcs spawn across the galaxy to give out quests at random, the quests been dynamic as well spawning buildings and such where players arent looking and telling players to go kill enemies there for the dynamic quest, the whole TEF/PvP flag system, the whole economy with armorsmith, weaponsmith, architect, tailor branching from artisan, scouting for and harvesting resources by placing harvesting machines over resources which move from area to area dynamically, the split gameplay between avatar and ship combat, the whole customizable space ship thing where you can walk around in a space ship while its in space and dock with other ships, the unique races- actually having the nerve to not allow an entire race to wear armor at all to follow lore- no wookie armor- that was certainly brave and different, and a biggie is the whole jedi thing, the idea of a single uber class that is mysteriously unlocked leaving the swg community confused for over half a year before starting to figure out, then there are vechs that can hold more than one person at a time, mounts that you dismount and they dont magically dissappear but instead follow you around and help you kill enemies, the whole creature handling profession was amazing with tons of different commands for your pet giving you complete control over them, the whole macro creation system, the whole UI system was surprisingly customizable for its time, the way you can go prone or kneel for better accuracy, battle fatigue/wounds that have to be healed by doctors, ect...
When SWG released, eveyone hated it. Because of bugs, but most reviews, especially ones from non-mmorpgers, hated it simply said it was boring and didnt feel like starwars. Hence the NGE, and the removal of almost every innoventive feature I mentioned above... Brand names have big expectations, they cant go around trying new things when they already have so much to live up to.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
My my, what a beautiful thread! I almost have a tear in my eye
I am not going to rant in here, because you can simply click http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/116008 and see it there. I compltey agree with OP 100%, and many people that are posting here. Great stuff guys. I too want a game that is new and innovative.
Let me ask you all a question: What do you think of classes:
Wowza... simply wow.... this thread is very good. I would type alot too but ill reserve that for just a bit later.
get this topic back to the top! lol
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Oh, a really nice recapitulation you did there! And I agree to the full quote.
However, I don't think big game IPs and game design innovations seclude each other per se.
Though I admit I struggle myself to find reasons as why pre-CU SWG was perceived in such a bad way in the computer gaming industry. At least for me finding an answer to this question is of significance for future game development.
pre-CU SWG (as well as the old Ultima Online) had many aspects that put it way ahead of these games that ironically call themselves "3d Generation" MMORPGs nowadays.
But why did SWG fail to attract the masses? Maybe we need to discuss first, if that's even what "we" want "attract the masses"?! I think a game like WoW is successful because it goes well with casual gamers in it's "PVE sphere" and still attracts longtime grind type players with it's "raid sphere" content apart from it's obvious newcomer friendliness.
However both of these type of players can usually not be attracted by a "sandbox style" virtual world offering you the freedom to do whatever you want.
Why is that people experience such freedom as a boring thing?
Well, one reason I could imagine is that many young players play MMO(RP)Gs as a distraction from school, they just want to log in and be involved in some kind of adventure that's far away from their daily routine. (going to school by bus, going home doing homework and such ;=) These type of player wants to be "entertained" and get sidetracked by story lines someone else thought out to feel comfortable. Just like the manager in her 30 ties coming home from work and doing nothing but watching a movie before going to bed.
The manager too just wants some distraction, but as much as the kids she doesn't want to play a full blown virtual 2nd world competition game. There is enough "stress" in the real world job already. The kids however don't really have the motivation to dig deep enough in a game to accomplish goals that maybe equally challening like real world goals. For example to become a mayor in a "virtual town".
So who are the people craving to reach such goals? I think it's mostly students (with lots of free time on their hands, searching for competition not only in stats and items but also in socialization and creativity) or housewives (with equally much time, though those usually won't fancy to play in a SC-FI world but might rather go for "Sims" style games, at least I know some that do).
So to get back to our imaginary virtual world, the kids like to compete with each other by playing the "superhero" type of character, to expect them to investigate the deeper game mechanics of a game like pre-CU SWG is therefore wishful thinking at best.
In the end you can play every game your way, yeah you can even play a game without playing the game. Let that sink
However the kids are one major target audience for the game publisher (not necessarily for the game developer), so to get back to our SWG example, with NGE the game was adapted to this audience and their wishes. Here: I want to play a Jedi, NOW!
So one question that becomes obvious now is, is developing a game which outdoes the "WoW style gameplay" in complexity and comes close or even surpasses pre-CU SWG a worthwhile option for a publisher, or is the market you are catering so small you will never get back your investment. Assuming you count games for people like students or people with "lucky jobs" that allow much freetime a niche market, we assume further the goal of your crew is to develop a blockbuster type game
Is there a way to integrate the 14 year old who wants to be this dread knight, everyone is afraid of... and the manager from above who likes to play her healer druid laughing at the goofy movement of the char in our yet to be made complex virtual world sandbox without alienating those who expect more depth in a game? SWG NGE wasn't it that much we know now
Another thing that is up to discussion is wether which impact the "theme" of your game has. Do less people enjoy SC-FI worlds like Star Wars, Matrix or Eve and actually prefer the fantasy setting with orcs, trolls and elves?
Anyway, who really wants to play a game that is a carbon copy of your reallife? Just imagine you had a room full of rockstars looking for some distraction, now I don't want to be the one introducing them to this brandnew MMORPG allowing you to play a rockstar
When you can fascinate folks with Indiana Jones and Star Wars (or Titanic and Pride and Prejudice *blush*) it should be possible to include their recipes for success in our virtual world too. By allowing our game designers to let you experience such themes without limiting players to an old mud style game design looking at long columns of numbers or restrict ourselves to character classes and linear gameplay progression with player levels.
I'm almost sure levels are the root of all evil... I mean c'mon, I bet Darth Vader was Level 96 and Luke was maybe 100, totally imba
uh, i got carried away, until next time.
xo Lena
I hope this thread would receive more attention... Cheers to everybody here seeing the light!
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
Classes and levels are both bad in my opinion. Even visible stats are bad, in my humble opinion, especially for a roleplayer. I would love to see a game that focuses on all aspects of the world equally. This means that while one player can be content as a wandering swordsman, another can settle down in a town or city and open a restaurant. The only game that offered this sort of experience was Tatsumaki: Land at War; but that game doesn't seem to be getting anywhere and I don't imagine it ever will for various internal reasons.
Anyways, by allowing players to choose a path beyond beating up monsters or other players would open a lot of doors and windows for MMORPGs as a whole. This would pave the way for virtual communities that really feel like living communities. Isn't that what we all want?
I'm deviating from my point... I'm a roleplayer deep down and that's what I want from an MMORPG. Removing levels and stats would really allow players to tread their own path and would break a lot of chains that restrict us currently. Why force a player to follow a certain path and become a cookie-cutter button-masher when they can become something original every time?
Focus on skills and character knowledge. If a player wishes to learn a new sword technique, then seek out an NPC that knows the technique. Or even better, find a player who has already been taught this technique by said NPC. Likely the NPC that can teach you this technique will have you complete some difficult task(s) to prove you are worthy of it, so players will be inclined to do the same if someone comes asking, am I right? Eventually NPCs will become less focused on as players will be able to learn skills from each other. This forms a living community.
This method could be used with all sorts of players and it would allow players to mix and match their skills to fit whatever they are planning. Knights, archers, chefs, farmers, fishermen, traders, miners, hunters, politicians, musicians, artists, thieves, mercenaries, village idiots... Anything is possible. As characters experience more things within the game their knowledge-base will increase as well.
I get the feeling I'm ranting again, so I'll end it here. Tell me what you think! Tell me your ideas! I'm interested in what you all think is the solution!
If you ask me what the best solution for reviving MMORPGs is I will tell you the solution is player-run content. What would you say?
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The Guild is all about making MMORPGs more immersive, and more importantly, more fun! Join us!
The Guild.
Great thread! I'm gonna use anogoly here - rap. You know, rap as music? Yes. If you don't like rap or mybe you just listen to it from time to time, all you know of rap is (current) Eminem, 50Cent and couple of others black dudes that I'm not gonna name since they all look alike. Now I don't mean this as some KKK member "All damn n*ggers look the same", but as musics they all copy each other. It's all commercialized - money, money, money! Just tune in MTV and you'll know what I'm talking about. They put up a smoke screen in a form of sick beats and when you hear it for the 1st time you might like it and think it's kinda good. But once you try to listen to it again - listen to the lyrics... It's empty, it's trash, it's pathetic. B*tch, b*tch, b*tch, bling, bling, bling, n*gga, n*gga, n*gga and that summons about 90% of current rap. Why is like that? Becouse it's all about money! Some random Britny Spears fan (read = some one from 12 to 16 years old) doesn't want to listen to complex lyrics, doesnt want to find meaning in the musics - they just want a sick beats and a buffed up n*gga with 2 kilos of golden chains. And that kind of music sells!
But... Go a bit in to the past when current "bling bling" rappers were underground (take Eminem for instance... or just any UG rapper now). Back then they were not in to the rap becouse of the money! They were rapping becouse they liked it, they wanted to say something, there words had meaning and they made sens.
And it's same s*it with games! Back in the ol' days game devs were gamers themself. They loved it, they enjoyed it. Some gamer with bit of programing skill (or even no programing skill at all) tought it would be cool to have a game where 1000s and 1000s of players would meet and play togather - and he made it! He didn't copy it since there was nothing to copy it from, he played it and he loved it!
But then somewhere along the line he started making money... And one thing went to the another and now you have 8 mil players AND YOU WANT EM ALL! It's no longer about enjing the game, devs don't play games anymore and if they do play em, it's some crap game that they are trying to copy, that was already copyed from another copy of a copy...
It's commercialized! It's very simple math: Ivest as little as possible = work as little as posible = spend less money on dev; and then hope that 8 mill kids will jump your game and you will be rich as them "rappers"! They could make a game... Sand box game... Easy to get in to, hard to master? Hmmm... Don't all say that about there games? When I hear "hard to master" ... I kinda do have a vision of raiding some hole for 4 houres every day or a week for 1 year... What's there to master about that? How not to cancle sub after 3 raids?
Pre-CU SWG had most of it in... All they needed to do is to work on bugs and mybe do the "tutorial" missions that we have today a bit earlier. It was now easy to get in to, and it was hell of a hard to master it. But we loved it! "WoW kids" didn't like it... And who's to blame em. Every one has a different taste... I personaly love my 1st experiance in SWG... When was your last time that you were actualy LOST inside a game? I was lost in SWG... Just went 1000m out of the Mos Eisly and I was in the middle of destert. And I LOVED it! It was my own epic quest with blue reward to get back and it was a blast. I will for ever remember those moments.
Were you ever lost in WoW? And I don't mean that you couldn't find a mob you had to kill... But actualy lost in the void of endless world?
So... It's sad and I don't like it... But I don't think I will ever be lost again. Thank you devs and bling bling rappers! I love the s*it you'r putting out!!!!! Moooore, moooooreeeee!
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Here's the problem: Most of the people that have the imagination to conceive the game, dont have the money to produce and distribute the game. That's why you see the same tired formula of grind, level, endgame raid and PvP. It's the way the system works; find something that is popular (i.e. makes ton of cash), copy it, then produce your own version, rinse and repeat. I've played pen and paper RPGs for years, and until the MMOs hit, there was nothing better on the market for interactive gaming. Unfortunately the PnP industry took a big hit, especially D&D (i.e. Wizards of the Coast), by producing a new version of their game every 1.5 years. This meant that you went out and bought about 10-15 books at $29.99 a piece, then 18 months later a revamped version of the game came out, and made your neat little book collection obsolete. That's why I stopped buying and playing PnP games; I couldn't afford the cost to keep up with the revisions that the companies were putting out.
So, what is the state of games now? Gamers want the following: 1. Immersion: We want to fell like heroes, make us apart of the game's lore and history. 2. Innovation: No more grind, no more kill quests, no more of the same tried formulae. 3. Not too easy, no too hard: A game should be easy to learn, but hard to master (i.e. chess).
It sounds really simple, but putting those pieces together has been difficlut to say the least. Just look at your typical gamer's shelf of games that promised inovation and fun, but fell short on both accounts.
I didn't read the whole thing sorry but i have a couple responses to tell you.First up,you can't keep using WOW as the idea of doing things right.You mention 8/10 solo,well do you know why this is so?This is because WOW has the largest RMT market in the world.Players can just go out an buy all the top gear they want level after level,wich is prolly why they just want end game so much.They want to just buy there top end gear once and be done with it.
The other part about all games being the same ,is true however,this is called content.You have to have game filler.Otherwise it is just a first person shooter or just and endgame to be played.Your real beef should be the lack of content or ingenuity in the content.Myself i understand the time line and cost these companies have to endure,so spending too many resources on the thought process [content]is a tough call.These games need thousands of quests to keep all players at every level happy.That alone could take a year to be able to achieve that many GOOD ones.The mapping that goes into the massive world we all want ,takes an enormous effort,so you can see why we are not getting the content we want.
I am sure they know how to do it,and can do it,but cost wise WON'T do it.The smart way to manage a game is put out the bare product,then if the game achieves a profit,you bring in content with updates.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I am delighted by MMOGs that challenge my endurance.
I still can't find a MMOG as good as EQ1 prior to Planes of Power.
Not at all my dear friend. Now I'm gonna use Pre-CU SWG again (we just can't let it RIP). I never dreamd about becoming a Jedi, mybe I tought it would be cool to be a Jedi but I just didn't have strenght to do it nor did I want to do it, plus there were tons of other stuff I liked more. What could it be? Crafting! I don't know why but I was addicted to crafting. It was... game within a game! And best thing about it I was in contact with other people at all time, selling stuff, buying stuff, working the deals. I just loved to bartn with some one, no matter how expensive or cheep the item is, I loved to bartn
But in some way I did feel like those Jedi players (this is deep pre-Cu where Jedi was a rare sight and it was an honour to see one). Walking in Mos Eisly with Master Doc over my head got me a lot of nice chet. Newbs walking up to me asking for a cheap buff, ofc I buffed em for free and they were sso thankfull - just like I was when I started, when people were helping me.
But I remember one moment, me walking in to the cantina in Mos Eisly... There was a like 5 newbs that formed a band (entertainers), when I walked in they were all like "hay doc! how you doing" and so on, they asked for one buff in a very nice way - don't remember the exact words, they said they had couple of credits they can pay me, I buffed em all for free and they just couldnt thank me enough. As I was walking out one yelled "Hey doc! I'll remember you, just know that you'll have free entetainer here all the time", something like that.
I just felt... Like a real doc that just saved like 10 ppl from death. I mean I just gave em a buff, didn't mean much to me, but just how nice people were to you when you helped em. Really the best community I was ever part of (for instance best thing you get in WoW is "Plx buff kk?" and if you'r lucky "Ty"... And God forbits that you play a priest in BG and some one on the other side of BG dies... "HEAL NOOB FFS!!!!111").
Oh look at me... I could talk all day long about sweet memories from SWG. Damn I hate SOE...
(Just a quick note to the original thread starter Ramzeppelin: I keep on picking on the original Star Wars Galaxies game because it includes so much of what you requested you'd like to see in a MMORPG, so even if you never got a chance to check it out I still hope you can find something useful in my posts)
@DrSmaSh
Yay, I know rap! whenever I go shoppping people look at me hard cuz i wear enough gold to tie a dog in the yard
Actually I'd like to take your example to demonstrate in which direction I'm thinking right now. Imagine the MMORPG as an open space event like a rap music festival.
Rap is the "theme", though you have different artists in every tent for different folks.
of course Humpty only bridges the time until the Blackalicious crew fixes their live drumset 
In the main stage area (biggest tent) you got Eminen, 50Cent and so on ... but there's also a somewhat smaller tent where Humpty Hump spins the discs playing Grand Master Flash, Mantronix, Electric Knights and some kickass electro
Along some alleys we even find few stand up comedians doing mini shows for the passer-bys. I leave it to reader what they could be in our little analogy
So that's how our ideal MMORPG should be too, you should have as many "spheres" in game as possible and let the audience choose to go wherever they want.
However as we know now, there are different player types. Like people who like to socialize, people who like to explore stuff, people who enjoy crafing, people who like fighting and hunting and some who like a bit of all.
Also there are people who want to be entertained by quest story lines and others who actually roleplay and invent new content for others. We need to bring these different types of players together in our "sandbox".
The quest type player should never feel lost in a big world but should have points of interest to go where quests, story and adventure waits. There should be solo content as well as group content.
I never thought there would be people who actually enjoy the "leveling part" and want some number to feel they have accomplished something in a mmorpg. We can deal with those too, we could create mini games in our sandbox world that mirror this playstyle.
For example you'd visit an NPC in some hunter guild and could get badges and symbols and medals to take home or adorn your gear or vehicles with. So they would have fun and rewards killing x numbers of crits, but won't get in the way of our idea of a no fixed classes and no linear level progression virtual world.
There is no need for classes as our avatars will become specialized in something by doing it. Of course we need a crafting, harvesting and housing system that builds on the ideas of SWG and maybe even takes them further.
We could even implement a karma or religion system and make the players actions influence how not only players but also NPCs deal with them (a bit like in the fun game "Fable" but not as simplistic as having NPC factions with KOS lists .... duh!).
I think the question I brought up as why pre-CU SWG failed is a two parter that still needs to be answered.
I think I know the answer to one part (the last one) when SWG was transformed to SWG:CU and a bit later SWG:NGE , the developers abandoned at least three types of players. The socializer type (as entertainer services became redundant except for roleplayers), everyone who enjoyed roleplaying (because they invented levels and mangled the original game design) and the crafter type (economy was killed by removing decay).
I never was much of a fighter back then but as I recall those who were into fighting and pvp were not happy either, though most changes were done for this type of player.
Okay, but why was pre-cu SWG before the collapse with all those mentioned systems and spheres not able to attract more players first place? I think the game designers failed to deal with the "quest type" of player and with gainful occupations for those who were used to "level" and missed this kind of numeric feedback coupled with loot rewards. The roleplayer, of course, instantly felt at home .
I think for a future MMORPG we need to give all these different types of players a home, because just catering one group won't bring in enough subscriptions to become a sound project. We already have WoW.
One thing crossed my mind I don't want to discuss in here, but nevertheless mention it. Maybe some people don't want too much of this freedom in our virtual sandbox, because the "game" suddenly becomes as "complex" as real life and the reason they play is just the opposite, to "escape" this complexity and be just that, a cookie cutter hero doing simple but fun things and getting rewards. Might be worth a topic when I find the time.
Sorry for my grammar, I was really in a rush today!
xo Lena
To the OP: Great post. I totally agree.
It makes me sad how many times Pre-CU SWG is brought up in this post however. It doesnt surprise me though as it was the closest thing we have had to what was described by the OP.
/mourn pre-cu
Thalos Vipav
Star Wars Galaxies: R.I.P.
This really struck a chord. I've been playing Gears of War Online and have been having more fun than I've had with an MMO in years. One of the key components of that is I can feel myself getting better. I'm leading the target now, aiming better, utilizing the weapons and enviorement better, working with my teammates better. Granted the gameplay is in small doses but my point is the tools are there for you to pave your own way with the game. To be as good as you make yourself to be.
I think this ideal for the real next generation of MMO's. No numbers telling you that your sword skill increased and you can hack and slash newbs by default but your own ability to take on 3 different people at once because they literally aren't as good as you. That would be a much better indication that you are getting better than numbers floating over your head.
Yes, I also find that shallow and pedantic.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci