The reason the game died for many at that point is because it was no longer a "living" world.
The split broke apart guilds (mine included), allowed people to CHOOSE what kind of world they wanted to play in. Before that you had to LIVE in the world.... there was no escaping it. That was the best part about the openness of UO. It was a living breathing world. If your friend was getting killed trying to mine, you could go defend him and ambush the PKers. You didn't have to have hundreds of quests built into the game to keep your attention. The WORLD was the quest.
I see people complaining about getting killed by PKers. To me, the fights that I had with reds were the funnest times I have ever had in a MMO game and that feeling has never been duplicated. The split killed that. It was no longer the Blues vs. the Reds it was the Blues in Trammel and the Reds in Fellucia. The PKers turned from pirates into rabid, gate camping, wolves (if you understand my comparison).
Not only did the split kill the immersion & close knit communities of the game but it also ushered in a new era of absolutely no fear from the player base.
People started hoarding gold because they could camp dungeons with no chance of getting killed. They could start using their weapons of vanquishing all the time because they had no chance of losing them. They could mine all they wanted because there was no one around to steal their ore.
Not only did the split destroy everything that WAS UO it also managed to turn the game into the very thing the original UO would never have become. A grind.
<modedit>
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
PK's were the main reason I left along with hundreds of thousands of others...to live in Everquest.Origin chose to ignore its player base and many in the subscriber base voted by taking there money away from Origin and giving it to a company who listened to them.
Experience before Trammel, is the reason that I still today would never go into a game with full open PvP.
as UO showed, there were far more arseholes that wasnt looking for a challenge, but for a lone target to zerg and teabag than there were people signing up to fight those kinds of players.
In a land of no rules, it's fun to be the badarse. And before Trammel, UO was the land of No rules.
In my personal opinion, the OP is just one of those PK'ers that lost his lone targets to zerg and teabag, and now goes on ranting how Trammel ruined the game for all of us....
I returned to the game AFTER trammel, and only left when a certain expansionpack arrived and well.. Did a SWG-NGE on UO when it comes to continuity
PK's were the main reason I left along with hundreds of thousands of others...to live in Everquest.Origin chose to ignore its player base and many in the subscriber base voted by taking there money away from Origin and giving it to a company who listened to them.
See I would have to disagree with you there. You were obviously playing UO until something more your style came along. EQ was that game for you.
I liked UO the way it was... along with "hundreds of thousands of others" (see I can make up numbers too). No offense to you, but why are you so special that the entire base of the game needed to be changed to cater to your play style?
I don't understand why people take your stance with MMO games when no other genre has to deal with it. I guess it's the evolving nature of each game & you feel that you need to change it to fit your life, instead of finding a different game with like-minded people that already caters to your type of gameplay.
What I'm getting at is when someone like you plays Call of Duty 4 do you complain a lot on the game's forums that the developers need to change it because you don't like getting shot at. That you should just be able to run around and hit people with pillows and no one dies?
No. You bought the game because you were expecting to get shot at. You would have found Pillow Duty 4 if you were looking for the other type of gameplay.
So why is it that games like you (the vocal minority) want to change perfectly good niche games to cater to your every need?
Honestly I think the current lack luster state of the MMO genre can be summed up by the fact that EA/Origin did not, in fact, ignore their vocal player base and issued the Tram/Fel patch.
And here lies the issue with every MMO to come out since then.
IMHO.
Edit: Wolfmann. I find it interesting that people keep bringing up the zerg/asshole/etc. side of the PK puzzle. Where you apparently had multiple problems with this. I never had any issues that you describe. The only time that I would be faced with multiple PKers is when I went looking for them.
During the normal course of the game I barely had any run-ins with more then 2 or 3 PKers at a time. But of course I always traveled with my friends. I cannot even remember a time when we were not looking for a fight that we had any trouble dealing with the reds. I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like you guys just weren't very good at the game.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
PK's were the main reason I left along with hundreds of thousands of others...to live in Everquest.Origin chose to ignore its player base and many in the subscriber base voted by taking there money away from Origin and giving it to a company who listened to them.
See I would have to disagree with you there. You were obviously playing UO until something more your style came along. EQ was that game for you.
I liked UO the way it was... along with "hundreds of thousands of others" (see I can make up numbers too). No offense to you, but why are you so special that the entire base of the game needed to be changed to cater to your play style?
I don't understand why people take your stance with MMO games when no other genre has to deal with it. I guess it's the evolving nature of each game & you feel that you need to change it to fit your life, instead of finding a different game with like-minded people that already caters to your type of gameplay.
What I'm getting at is when someone like you plays Call of Duty 4 do you complain a lot on the game's forums that the developers need to change it because you don't like getting shot at. That you should just be able to run around and hit people with pillows and no one dies?
No. You bought the game because you were expecting to get shot at. You would have found Pillow Duty 4 if you were looking for the other type of gameplay.
So why is it that games like you (the vocal minority) want to change perfectly good niche games to cater to your every need?
Honestly I think the current lack luster state of the MMO genre can be summed up by the fact that EA/Origin did not, in fact, ignore their vocal player base and issued the Tram/Fel patch.
And here lies the issue with every MMO to come out since then.
IMHO.
Funny you should say that, since I see on every official forumboard for games under developement, whimpering from folks like you, that the game should be turned into full loot PvP, cuz thats what they want.
So why should us that "survived" the onslaught of weakling zerg PvP'ers not be offered the same courtesy to ask for PvP to be limited so we can enjoy the games too?
Funny you should say that, since I see on every official forumboard for games under developement, whimpering from folks like you, that the game should be turned into full loot PvP, cuz thats what they want.
So why should us that "survived" the onslaught of weakling zerg PvP'ers not be offered the same courtesy to ask for PvP to be limited so we can enjoy the games too?
The games currently in development that I follow seem to be about 50/50 as far as the forums go for those for or against full PvP.
Having said that, I would never want full PvP in a class based game. It cannot work. Ever.
The only type of MMO game that can support an open PvP environment is a skill based sandbox type world.
Limited PvP is the way to go in the current crop of upcoming MMO games, there is no other way to do it.
My biggest complaint, though, would be people complaining about the developers decision (whatever it may be) after the game has already been released. When the consumer is full aware that the game has a certain type of gameplay (whether it be open or restricted) and wants the developers to change it simply because they do not like it.
No... in today's market MMO games are multi million dollar projects & the developers want to make the biggest return on their investment so no big name companies are making niche games. Everything is catered to the mainstream.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it does lead to some very bland games that all feel and play the same.
Edit: I actually support your view that both sides of this PvP equation should be considered & that there are way more PvE players then PvP players. But what I would like to see is a game developer that ignores everyone and makes the game that THEY want to make. (I'm not referring to ignoring bugs, or crucial game imbalance issues... but if they want everyone to wear purple hats in the game and people start complaining that they don't like purple hats... the developers need to be brave enough to tell those people that the game is not for them.. and keep on the same development track. In the end, if it's fun, people will play)
Only then will we see some true innovation in the genre.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
During the normal course of the game I barely had any run-ins with more then 2 or 3 PKers at a time. But of course I always traveled with my friends. I cannot even remember a time when we were not looking for a fight that we had any trouble dealing with the reds. I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like you guys just weren't very good at the game.
Typical of a player of your belief. The key phrase is, I always traveled with my friends. Sure, PVP games are much easier if you always travel with a zerg, but most gamers prefer to run solo. Therefore, they become victims to folks like yourselves and then decide the playstyle isn't for them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Typical of a player of your belief. The key phrase is, I always traveled with my friends. Sure, PVP games are much easier if you always travel with a zerg, but most gamers prefer to run solo. Therefore, they become victims to folks like yourselves and then decide the playstyle isn't for them. <modedit>
There's a big difference between someone sucking at a game and someone not knowing how to play. I never ran with a "zerg" as you call it. At the most, 3 or 4 people. This WAS an MMO game after all. 10 years ago I would never have thought about adventuring around UO without friends. Both for the safety and also because it was a lot more fun to adventure with my friends. The MMO genre was a different place back then. There was no such thing as soloing in EQ if you remember.
There were, of course, times that I did travel alone and if I saw more then one red name come on my screen I knew better then to stay in that area. I would either recall or run away.
Also me and my friends were purely "good" players. We never killed any innocents (blues). Only reds, or grays.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Funny you should say that, since I see on every official forumboard for games under developement, whimpering from folks like you, that the game should be turned into full loot PvP, cuz thats what they want.
So why should us that "survived" the onslaught of weakling zerg PvP'ers not be offered the same courtesy to ask for PvP to be limited so we can enjoy the games too?
The games currently in development that I follow seem to be about 50/50 as far as the forums go for those for or against full PvP.
Having said that, I would never want full PvP in a class based game. It cannot work. Ever.
The only type of MMO game that can support an open PvP environment is a skill based sandbox type world.
Limited PvP is the way to go in the current crop of upcoming MMO games, there is no other way to do it.
My biggest complaint, though, would be people complaining about the developers decision (whatever it may be) after the game has already been released. When the consumer is full aware that the game has a certain type of gameplay (whether it be open or restricted) and wants the developers to change it simply because they do not like it.
No... in today's market MMO games are multi million dollar projects & the developers want to make the biggest return on their investment so no big name companies are making niche games. Everything is catered to the mainstream.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it does lead to some very bland games that all feel and play the same.
Edit: I actually support your view that both sides of this PvP equation should be considered & that there are way more PvE players then PvP players. But what I would like to see is a game developer that ignores everyone and makes the game that THEY want to make. (I'm not referring to ignoring bugs, or crucial game imbalance issues... but if they want everyone to wear purple hats in the game and people start complaining that they don't like purple hats... the developers need to be brave enough to tell those people that the game is not for them.. and keep on the same development track. In the end, if it's fun, people will play)
Only then will we see some true innovation in the genre.
Actually, I'll correct you... Open PvP (or I refer to it as FFA PvP) is a dying system in MMORPG's. Games that were originally have either taken on areas where there's little or no PvP (UO post Trammel and EvE) or basically became niche games that are either slowly dying or close to dead (Lineage 2, Fury, Shadowbane). And games that have FFA PvP servers (EQ, EQ2, DAoC, WoW) those servers usually are far lower in number of players than other games. DAoC had to close down one of their PvP servers (Andred) because people left that server in disgust. WoW's PvP servers may have a lot of players on them, but they're a minority compared to the sheer number of players that play on the normal and RP servers (last I was on, basically all but like 3 of the Low pop servers were PvP).
Now, why is it that FFA PvP games fail? I agree with Wolfmann 100%. After my stints in pre-Trammel UO (getting PK'd a lot, having the constant fear) I left and never looked back until Trammel came out. It's also why I'm a firm believer against FFA PvP. All due to a majority PK'ers being anti-social, serial-killing, thugs. All they are doing is living out their twisted fantasies of killing others without real life repercussions. Which is prevalent because I've seen and heard a lot of testimony that majority of PK'ers are famous for hunting down the little people rather than taking on someone of their own caliber.
Anyways, as I stated, FFA PvP is a dying breed that will, more than likely, never make a full comeback like it was in pre-Trammel UO. Which, IMO, is a very good thing.
Wow...I read all the post. I realize this post is like a year old but I'm new to the site.
Where to start??? I'm glad that there others out there that still feel that pre trammel was the best mmog ever.
I totally agree with Dameonk and sempiternal on alot of issues. I started like one year after the launch of UO and played for 4 years. I played on only one shard (Great Lakes). I cant bare thinking of playing another mmog that didnt have the indepth game play that UO had. I have only played one other mmog since my UO days and that was Star Wars Galaxies. Which I didnt play long. My guildmates and real life friends have played many of the other ones, and I always ask "Can you kill people and loot them?" Answer was always "No its not as good as UO" Thats what made UO of fun...the FEAR of losing your stuff. UO was a game that teaches RESPONSIBILITY. Like, ok I got my house key and rune on me, lets not let anyone get too close to snoop and so on.
For me UO was never about graphics. UO was about having something different to do everyday. Somethings needed friends for help or other jobs you could do alone. I would always log on to see what I could get mixed up in. As soon as I would log on and a guildmate seen me on ICQ would be a message: "Happy goto the rune in top chest of tower...Hurry DOC". Instant action all the time. A DOC was a house that was indanger of collapsing. We were a professional house placing guild. We had house placing down to a science.
Fel/Tram spilt was the first downward fall of the game. Second one was 9/11 tragedy, After that happen correct me if I'm wrong but I think that made a patch that made it so houses dont decay anymore. Then the whole item based and insurance thing was enough for me. I quit, sold my main account. UO started to pamper players like Arawon and Wolfmann. The game was open pvp but, there was consequence for the pks. The murder system was well thought out in my eyes. I only had one red character and, he had over 600 murders and never left the house. Oh my sweet masterful tinker.
Would love to see a classic UO or a game that is the same. Although I dont know if I have time to play a mmog anymore but, If it was like UO i would find some.
this post is so old but i could not help posting on here. Been on the site long time just never posted a lot. Just started playing UO after a hell of a long stop since the 3D cliant was released that is when i stopped. I am hoping that with MYTHIC taking over they will listen to the players and do something with UO they made a old school DAOC server what makes a old school UO server not in the works for them i think it might happen.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Brieen - UO,DAOC,WOW,SB,EQ,EQII,EVE,LOTR,D&D,Rift,FFXI and some others I dont care to list......
Firstly: Well written and you nailed it. Second: I played UO when it first came out and quit for good last year. Watching the game over the years since LB and LB left I can now make this comparitive statement:
Typical of a player of your belief. The key phrase is, I always traveled with my friends. Sure, PVP games are much easier if you always travel with a zerg, but most gamers prefer to run solo. Therefore, they become victims to folks like yourselves and then decide the playstyle isn't for them. <modedit>
There's a big difference between someone sucking at a game and someone not knowing how to play. I never ran with a "zerg" as you call it. At the most, 3 or 4 people. This WAS an MMO game after all. 10 years ago I would never have thought about adventuring around UO without friends. Both for the safety and also because it was a lot more fun to adventure with my friends. The MMO genre was a different place back then. There was no such thing as soloing in EQ if you remember.
There were, of course, times that I did travel alone and if I saw more then one red name come on my screen I knew better then to stay in that area. I would either recall or run away.
Also me and my friends were purely "good" players. We never killed any innocents (blues). Only reds, or grays.
I know this thread is old. But there were the people that knew how to play in felucca or pre-trammel and those that didn't. I also never had problems with reds. Yes, I would die sometimes to pks, but that is part of the system. The part that spikes your adrenaline when you are in an encounter. It was often the fact in UO, that 2 good players that have played together a while could defeat 4 other disorganized players....or atleast escape with their lives if the 4 man team was any good.
I also always had a red. You don't think the tables where ever turned where I had to escape from 4 blues or that I never got 'ganked'? And I'm going to say it....but care bear mentality ruined this game.
All this could have been allivated by created different servers with different rule types.
The game would not have been as good if the community was split into separate servers - essentially Trammel was a half-assed version of that concept. Originally, Ultima Online was a community of all types living in one world, on one type of server, and that is what made this game so much more interesting than most generic PvP/PvM games today. It was truly an online world.
Originally, Ultima Online was a community of all types living in one world, on one type of server, and that is what made this game so much more interesting than most generic PvP/PvM games today. It was truly an online world.
Originally posted by ItalWHOP All this could have been allivated by created different servers with different rule types.
This would have been a possibility but I find that you always lose a certain richness when you segment player bases. UO had a depth to it that I never experienced again.
I haven't played UO in about 5-6 years but I would come back in a second if they made it one world again.
I saw the new graphics and they look pretty nice.
I currently get my kicks from Eve online which is essentially the same concept as the original UO under the covers. The devs of EO are old UO players and you can see it.
The problem with games today is that they rely on graphics more and more, and gameplay less and less. I mean, why do most games today revolve around fighting? Why can't I just log on to chill in my house, or why can't I just log on to my crafter and craft all day. Trust me, crafting in the new games is nothing like what crafting was like in UO.
I don't see how anyone gave UO a bad review. The game is hard to learn, yet, but it pays off. In the end you get such a in depth game that everything else looks so shallow.
UO players were spoiled. We seriously were. We were given a game that had so much going for it that everything else turns out to look like a bore-fest.
Currently I'm in Age of Conan, while it's a nice change from the average MMO out there, I don't see it holding my attention for too much longer. I think the best thing for me to do is either drop MMO's as a whole or just accept UO for what it is and go back to it.
As sad as it sounds, even UO today is better than 3/4 of the games out in the market today.
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Why do people seem to ignore the fact that EA bought Origins over 2 years prior to UO being released. It was EA that allowed Garriot to develop UO. Without EA there would of never been UO. Now you can say UO was destroyed when Garriot walked away, but that is what he does, he gets bored and moves on just look at him at NCsoft (Has he made a successful game for them? rofl no).
Now while I haven't played UO in over jeez must be 5 or 6 years now and understand the marketing tactics they went after I don't agree that they should of done what they did without maintaining classic servers, but that is all them. I will never say EA sucks though because they brought me and developed and help nurture the game I loved for 4 years of my life.
Either EA sucks or their developers are incompetent.
And don't say UO was that great. Read the initial docs where animals would hunt each other or could train skills and other things that did not work. Also it was planned to hold 300 players until 6 months before release EA said it needs to hold 3000.
When the developers thought the playerbase would govern itself without giving them tools, they did one of ther biggest errors on mmoprg history and almost every game learned from it (Shadowbane and darkfall will have to show if they learned).
After having a solid base game they had nothing better to do than to copy other games and implement terrible game choices, where I hope that other games still learned from. Never split your community and do not force a new game onto your playerbase. And if test that crap and don't have bugs over 2 years without ever fixing it.
So sorry, but EA sucks and their common phrase is .. Sorry we cannot help you .. or these days .. look up the website and don't bother us gms.
I really think the addition of trammel was not the backbreaker you feel it was. I always lived in Felucca, my girlfriend too who never pvps. We did just fine. Had the house looted a few times, no big deal, part of the game. Trammel was necessary, because not everyone wants to pvp. I think it worked well, if you wanted to pvp, you adventured in Felucca, if not trammel.
All they had to do is make a few dungeons off limits to reds and that would have solved the problem. Or make a few areas PVE only, like T2A. Thats all they had to do. Creating a mirror PVE world? WTF, everyone left felucca. There wasnt anything going on soon after.
I totally agree with Dameonk and sempiternal on alot of issues. I started like one year after the launch of UO and played for 4 years. I played on only one shard (Great Lakes). I cant bare thinking of playing another mmog that didnt have the indepth game play that UO had. I have only played one other mmog since my UO days and that was Star Wars Galaxies. Which I didnt play long. My guildmates and real life friends have played many of the other ones, and I always ask "Can you kill people and loot them?" Answer was always "No its not as good as UO" Thats what made UO of fun...the FEAR of losing your stuff. UO was a game that teaches RESPONSIBILITY. Like, ok I got my house key and rune on me, lets not let anyone get too close to snoop and so on.
Thats the thing, looting. There was never uber or irreplaceable gear. Remember everything was player made. They had a few magic items (ruin to vanq weapons, and armor), but they were never crucial in PVP.
And when you did get looted, all you had to do is hunt for 20-30mins, make some gold and reequip from another player. Dealing with crafters created a sense of community.
I used to Smith at the Brit Forge, man i made so many friends and connections. People would still come up to me years later when I joined up and said "your Gunga Din from brit forge way back, I still have one of your valorite suits, never trashed it, good to see you" You name another game that can give you that.
I'm still waiting to see if Mythic will have any change on UO or are they holding on to it till WAR is released? , If Mythic gives UO the time of day and adecent budget I think they could make UO alot more interesting and maybe a nice little shot at a comeback.
I'm still waiting to see if Mythic will have any change on UO or are they holding on to it till WAR is released? , If Mythic gives UO the time of day and adecent budget I think they could make UO alot more interesting and maybe a nice little shot at a comeback.
After KR, I'm sure EA has now completely given up on trying to force the UO peg into the EQ hole. After completely destroying UO, they will let it die off - it would have already if it were not for the die-hard fans. Now EA is focusing on making a WoW clone, I'm sure that will fail too.
Comments
I played UO from beta until the Fel/Tram split.
The reason the game died for many at that point is because it was no longer a "living" world.
The split broke apart guilds (mine included), allowed people to CHOOSE what kind of world they wanted to play in. Before that you had to LIVE in the world.... there was no escaping it. That was the best part about the openness of UO. It was a living breathing world. If your friend was getting killed trying to mine, you could go defend him and ambush the PKers. You didn't have to have hundreds of quests built into the game to keep your attention. The WORLD was the quest.
I see people complaining about getting killed by PKers. To me, the fights that I had with reds were the funnest times I have ever had in a MMO game and that feeling has never been duplicated. The split killed that. It was no longer the Blues vs. the Reds it was the Blues in Trammel and the Reds in Fellucia. The PKers turned from pirates into rabid, gate camping, wolves (if you understand my comparison).
Not only did the split kill the immersion & close knit communities of the game but it also ushered in a new era of absolutely no fear from the player base.
People started hoarding gold because they could camp dungeons with no chance of getting killed. They could start using their weapons of vanquishing all the time because they had no chance of losing them. They could mine all they wanted because there was no one around to steal their ore.
Not only did the split destroy everything that WAS UO it also managed to turn the game into the very thing the original UO would never have become. A grind.
<modedit>
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
PK's were the main reason I left along with hundreds of thousands of others...to live in Everquest.Origin chose to ignore its player base and many in the subscriber base voted by taking there money away from Origin and giving it to a company who listened to them.
Experience before Trammel, is the reason that I still today would never go into a game with full open PvP.
as UO showed, there were far more arseholes that wasnt looking for a challenge, but for a lone target to zerg and teabag than there were people signing up to fight those kinds of players.
In a land of no rules, it's fun to be the badarse. And before Trammel, UO was the land of No rules.
In my personal opinion, the OP is just one of those PK'ers that lost his lone targets to zerg and teabag, and now goes on ranting how Trammel ruined the game for all of us....
I returned to the game AFTER trammel, and only left when a certain expansionpack arrived and well.. Did a SWG-NGE on UO when it comes to continuity
See I would have to disagree with you there. You were obviously playing UO until something more your style came along. EQ was that game for you.
I liked UO the way it was... along with "hundreds of thousands of others" (see I can make up numbers too). No offense to you, but why are you so special that the entire base of the game needed to be changed to cater to your play style?
I don't understand why people take your stance with MMO games when no other genre has to deal with it. I guess it's the evolving nature of each game & you feel that you need to change it to fit your life, instead of finding a different game with like-minded people that already caters to your type of gameplay.
What I'm getting at is when someone like you plays Call of Duty 4 do you complain a lot on the game's forums that the developers need to change it because you don't like getting shot at. That you should just be able to run around and hit people with pillows and no one dies?
No. You bought the game because you were expecting to get shot at. You would have found Pillow Duty 4 if you were looking for the other type of gameplay.
So why is it that games like you (the vocal minority) want to change perfectly good niche games to cater to your every need?
Honestly I think the current lack luster state of the MMO genre can be summed up by the fact that EA/Origin did not, in fact, ignore their vocal player base and issued the Tram/Fel patch.
And here lies the issue with every MMO to come out since then.
IMHO.
Edit: Wolfmann. I find it interesting that people keep bringing up the zerg/asshole/etc. side of the PK puzzle. Where you apparently had multiple problems with this. I never had any issues that you describe. The only time that I would be faced with multiple PKers is when I went looking for them.
During the normal course of the game I barely had any run-ins with more then 2 or 3 PKers at a time. But of course I always traveled with my friends. I cannot even remember a time when we were not looking for a fight that we had any trouble dealing with the reds. I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like you guys just weren't very good at the game.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
See I would have to disagree with you there. You were obviously playing UO until something more your style came along. EQ was that game for you.
I liked UO the way it was... along with "hundreds of thousands of others" (see I can make up numbers too). No offense to you, but why are you so special that the entire base of the game needed to be changed to cater to your play style?
I don't understand why people take your stance with MMO games when no other genre has to deal with it. I guess it's the evolving nature of each game & you feel that you need to change it to fit your life, instead of finding a different game with like-minded people that already caters to your type of gameplay.
What I'm getting at is when someone like you plays Call of Duty 4 do you complain a lot on the game's forums that the developers need to change it because you don't like getting shot at. That you should just be able to run around and hit people with pillows and no one dies?
No. You bought the game because you were expecting to get shot at. You would have found Pillow Duty 4 if you were looking for the other type of gameplay.
So why is it that games like you (the vocal minority) want to change perfectly good niche games to cater to your every need?
Honestly I think the current lack luster state of the MMO genre can be summed up by the fact that EA/Origin did not, in fact, ignore their vocal player base and issued the Tram/Fel patch.
And here lies the issue with every MMO to come out since then.
IMHO.
Funny you should say that, since I see on every official forumboard for games under developement, whimpering from folks like you, that the game should be turned into full loot PvP, cuz thats what they want.So why should us that "survived" the onslaught of weakling zerg PvP'ers not be offered the same courtesy to ask for PvP to be limited so we can enjoy the games too?
The games currently in development that I follow seem to be about 50/50 as far as the forums go for those for or against full PvP.
Having said that, I would never want full PvP in a class based game. It cannot work. Ever.
The only type of MMO game that can support an open PvP environment is a skill based sandbox type world.
Limited PvP is the way to go in the current crop of upcoming MMO games, there is no other way to do it.
My biggest complaint, though, would be people complaining about the developers decision (whatever it may be) after the game has already been released. When the consumer is full aware that the game has a certain type of gameplay (whether it be open or restricted) and wants the developers to change it simply because they do not like it.
No... in today's market MMO games are multi million dollar projects & the developers want to make the biggest return on their investment so no big name companies are making niche games. Everything is catered to the mainstream.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it does lead to some very bland games that all feel and play the same.
Edit: I actually support your view that both sides of this PvP equation should be considered & that there are way more PvE players then PvP players. But what I would like to see is a game developer that ignores everyone and makes the game that THEY want to make. (I'm not referring to ignoring bugs, or crucial game imbalance issues... but if they want everyone to wear purple hats in the game and people start complaining that they don't like purple hats... the developers need to be brave enough to tell those people that the game is not for them.. and keep on the same development track. In the end, if it's fun, people will play)
Only then will we see some true innovation in the genre.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Typical of a player of your belief. The key phrase is, I always traveled with my friends. Sure, PVP games are much easier if you always travel with a zerg, but most gamers prefer to run solo. Therefore, they become victims to folks like yourselves and then decide the playstyle isn't for them.
<modedit>
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There's a big difference between someone sucking at a game and someone not knowing how to play. I never ran with a "zerg" as you call it. At the most, 3 or 4 people. This WAS an MMO game after all. 10 years ago I would never have thought about adventuring around UO without friends. Both for the safety and also because it was a lot more fun to adventure with my friends. The MMO genre was a different place back then. There was no such thing as soloing in EQ if you remember.
There were, of course, times that I did travel alone and if I saw more then one red name come on my screen I knew better then to stay in that area. I would either recall or run away.
Also me and my friends were purely "good" players. We never killed any innocents (blues). Only reds, or grays.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
The games currently in development that I follow seem to be about 50/50 as far as the forums go for those for or against full PvP.
Having said that, I would never want full PvP in a class based game. It cannot work. Ever.
The only type of MMO game that can support an open PvP environment is a skill based sandbox type world.
Limited PvP is the way to go in the current crop of upcoming MMO games, there is no other way to do it.
My biggest complaint, though, would be people complaining about the developers decision (whatever it may be) after the game has already been released. When the consumer is full aware that the game has a certain type of gameplay (whether it be open or restricted) and wants the developers to change it simply because they do not like it.
No... in today's market MMO games are multi million dollar projects & the developers want to make the biggest return on their investment so no big name companies are making niche games. Everything is catered to the mainstream.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it does lead to some very bland games that all feel and play the same.
Edit: I actually support your view that both sides of this PvP equation should be considered & that there are way more PvE players then PvP players. But what I would like to see is a game developer that ignores everyone and makes the game that THEY want to make. (I'm not referring to ignoring bugs, or crucial game imbalance issues... but if they want everyone to wear purple hats in the game and people start complaining that they don't like purple hats... the developers need to be brave enough to tell those people that the game is not for them.. and keep on the same development track. In the end, if it's fun, people will play)
Only then will we see some true innovation in the genre.
Actually, I'll correct you... Open PvP (or I refer to it as FFA PvP) is a dying system in MMORPG's. Games that were originally have either taken on areas where there's little or no PvP (UO post Trammel and EvE) or basically became niche games that are either slowly dying or close to dead (Lineage 2, Fury, Shadowbane). And games that have FFA PvP servers (EQ, EQ2, DAoC, WoW) those servers usually are far lower in number of players than other games. DAoC had to close down one of their PvP servers (Andred) because people left that server in disgust. WoW's PvP servers may have a lot of players on them, but they're a minority compared to the sheer number of players that play on the normal and RP servers (last I was on, basically all but like 3 of the Low pop servers were PvP).
Now, why is it that FFA PvP games fail? I agree with Wolfmann 100%. After my stints in pre-Trammel UO (getting PK'd a lot, having the constant fear) I left and never looked back until Trammel came out. It's also why I'm a firm believer against FFA PvP. All due to a majority PK'ers being anti-social, serial-killing, thugs. All they are doing is living out their twisted fantasies of killing others without real life repercussions. Which is prevalent because I've seen and heard a lot of testimony that majority of PK'ers are famous for hunting down the little people rather than taking on someone of their own caliber.
Anyways, as I stated, FFA PvP is a dying breed that will, more than likely, never make a full comeback like it was in pre-Trammel UO. Which, IMO, is a very good thing.
Wow...I read all the post. I realize this post is like a year old but I'm new to the site.
Where to start??? I'm glad that there others out there that still feel that pre trammel was the best mmog ever.
I totally agree with Dameonk and sempiternal on alot of issues. I started like one year after the launch of UO and played for 4 years. I played on only one shard (Great Lakes). I cant bare thinking of playing another mmog that didnt have the indepth game play that UO had. I have only played one other mmog since my UO days and that was Star Wars Galaxies. Which I didnt play long. My guildmates and real life friends have played many of the other ones, and I always ask "Can you kill people and loot them?" Answer was always "No its not as good as UO" Thats what made UO of fun...the FEAR of losing your stuff. UO was a game that teaches RESPONSIBILITY. Like, ok I got my house key and rune on me, lets not let anyone get too close to snoop and so on.
For me UO was never about graphics. UO was about having something different to do everyday. Somethings needed friends for help or other jobs you could do alone. I would always log on to see what I could get mixed up in. As soon as I would log on and a guildmate seen me on ICQ would be a message: "Happy goto the rune in top chest of tower...Hurry DOC". Instant action all the time. A DOC was a house that was indanger of collapsing. We were a professional house placing guild. We had house placing down to a science.
Fel/Tram spilt was the first downward fall of the game. Second one was 9/11 tragedy, After that happen correct me if I'm wrong but I think that made a patch that made it so houses dont decay anymore. Then the whole item based and insurance thing was enough for me. I quit, sold my main account. UO started to pamper players like Arawon and Wolfmann. The game was open pvp but, there was consequence for the pks. The murder system was well thought out in my eyes. I only had one red character and, he had over 600 murders and never left the house. Oh my sweet masterful tinker.
Would love to see a classic UO or a game that is the same. Although I dont know if I have time to play a mmog anymore but, If it was like UO i would find some.
Happy Gilmore
this post is so old but i could not help posting on here. Been on the site long time just never posted a lot. Just started playing UO after a hell of a long stop since the 3D cliant was released that is when i stopped. I am hoping that with MYTHIC taking over they will listen to the players and do something with UO they made a old school DAOC server what makes a old school UO server not in the works for them i think it might happen.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Brieen - UO,DAOC,WOW,SB,EQ,EQII,EVE,LOTR,D&D,Rift,FFXI and some others I dont care to list......
EA's main focus was pixel crack.
There's a big difference between someone sucking at a game and someone not knowing how to play. I never ran with a "zerg" as you call it. At the most, 3 or 4 people. This WAS an MMO game after all. 10 years ago I would never have thought about adventuring around UO without friends. Both for the safety and also because it was a lot more fun to adventure with my friends. The MMO genre was a different place back then. There was no such thing as soloing in EQ if you remember.
There were, of course, times that I did travel alone and if I saw more then one red name come on my screen I knew better then to stay in that area. I would either recall or run away.
Also me and my friends were purely "good" players. We never killed any innocents (blues). Only reds, or grays.
I know this thread is old. But there were the people that knew how to play in felucca or pre-trammel and those that didn't. I also never had problems with reds. Yes, I would die sometimes to pks, but that is part of the system. The part that spikes your adrenaline when you are in an encounter. It was often the fact in UO, that 2 good players that have played together a while could defeat 4 other disorganized players....or atleast escape with their lives if the 4 man team was any good.
I also always had a red. You don't think the tables where ever turned where I had to escape from 4 blues or that I never got 'ganked'? And I'm going to say it....but care bear mentality ruined this game.
All this could have been allivated by created different servers with different rule types.
The game would not have been as good if the community was split into separate servers - essentially Trammel was a half-assed version of that concept. Originally, Ultima Online was a community of all types living in one world, on one type of server, and that is what made this game so much more interesting than most generic PvP/PvM games today. It was truly an online world.
Will we ever see that again?
This would have been a possibility but I find that you always lose a certain richness when you segment player bases. UO had a depth to it that I never experienced again.
I haven't played UO in about 5-6 years but I would come back in a second if they made it one world again.
I saw the new graphics and they look pretty nice.
I currently get my kicks from Eve online which is essentially the same concept as the original UO under the covers. The devs of EO are old UO players and you can see it.
The problem with games today is that they rely on graphics more and more, and gameplay less and less. I mean, why do most games today revolve around fighting? Why can't I just log on to chill in my house, or why can't I just log on to my crafter and craft all day. Trust me, crafting in the new games is nothing like what crafting was like in UO.
I don't see how anyone gave UO a bad review. The game is hard to learn, yet, but it pays off. In the end you get such a in depth game that everything else looks so shallow.
UO players were spoiled. We seriously were. We were given a game that had so much going for it that everything else turns out to look like a bore-fest.
Currently I'm in Age of Conan, while it's a nice change from the average MMO out there, I don't see it holding my attention for too much longer. I think the best thing for me to do is either drop MMO's as a whole or just accept UO for what it is and go back to it.
As sad as it sounds, even UO today is better than 3/4 of the games out in the market today.
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Why do people seem to ignore the fact that EA bought Origins over 2 years prior to UO being released. It was EA that allowed Garriot to develop UO. Without EA there would of never been UO. Now you can say UO was destroyed when Garriot walked away, but that is what he does, he gets bored and moves on just look at him at NCsoft (Has he made a successful game for them? rofl no).
Now while I haven't played UO in over jeez must be 5 or 6 years now and understand the marketing tactics they went after I don't agree that they should of done what they did without maintaining classic servers, but that is all them. I will never say EA sucks though because they brought me and developed and help nurture the game I loved for 4 years of my life.
Either EA sucks or their developers are incompetent.
And don't say UO was that great. Read the initial docs where animals would hunt each other or could train skills and other things that did not work. Also it was planned to hold 300 players until 6 months before release EA said it needs to hold 3000.
When the developers thought the playerbase would govern itself without giving them tools, they did one of ther biggest errors on mmoprg history and almost every game learned from it (Shadowbane and darkfall will have to show if they learned).
After having a solid base game they had nothing better to do than to copy other games and implement terrible game choices, where I hope that other games still learned from. Never split your community and do not force a new game onto your playerbase. And if test that crap and don't have bugs over 2 years without ever fixing it.
So sorry, but EA sucks and their common phrase is .. Sorry we cannot help you .. or these days .. look up the website and don't bother us gms.
:P
All they had to do is make a few dungeons off limits to reds and that would have solved the problem. Or make a few areas PVE only, like T2A. Thats all they had to do. Creating a mirror PVE world? WTF, everyone left felucca. There wasnt anything going on soon after.
And when you did get looted, all you had to do is hunt for 20-30mins, make some gold and reequip from another player. Dealing with crafters created a sense of community.
I used to Smith at the Brit Forge, man i made so many friends and connections. People would still come up to me years later when I joined up and said "your Gunga Din from brit forge way back, I still have one of your valorite suits, never trashed it, good to see you" You name another game that can give you that.
I'm still waiting to see if Mythic will have any change on UO or are they holding on to it till WAR is released? , If Mythic gives UO the time of day and adecent budget I think they could make UO alot more interesting and maybe a nice little shot at a comeback.
After KR, I'm sure EA has now completely given up on trying to force the UO peg into the EQ hole. After completely destroying UO, they will let it die off - it would have already if it were not for the die-hard fans. Now EA is focusing on making a WoW clone, I'm sure that will fail too.