Originally posted by TaskyZZ Hmmm, my car allows me to drive 120mph, so I should be able to do it... Hmmm, my car can run over pedestrians, so I should do it... They should make the cars not be able to do it, not make rules telling people not to do it... Is that the mentality here? "It is the car manufacturers fault, not mine officer. This car should only be able to go 65mph..."
You can drive 120 mph if your car allows you to, but the rules state that if you get caught, you can be fined. You can run someone over, but the rules state that if you get caught, you get sent to prison or maybe even be put to death. The rules still apply (unless your name is OJ).
Malkavian brings up a good point though. The game doesn't have to be designed with every aspect already thought of. Developers or even server owners (eg. FPS games) can still lay down their own rules for people to follow even if they aren't built into the game. People still have to follow these rules. Just because UT2004 doesn't have a profanity filter doesn't mean the server owner can state his own rules that if anyone uses profanity that he will kick them from the server.
My whole point is, that if people are following the rules, don't complain about them.
Originally posted by Alient The main question is, "What is unethical?" The only things I see that are unethical are: Hacks - examples include speed hacks and wall hacks.Exploits - exploiting a game bug is just a low level hack. It is up to the developers to fix the bug as quick as possible, but those who usually exploit the bug aren't going to tell the developers about the bug.DOS Attacks - this can even be something I've seen in Neocron a some time ago when someone distributed many small items throughout the game world which caused the server to lag and everyone's graphics to crawl. (This example could also be an exploit and the developers fixed this by the way)Aimbots - or any other bot that was not intended for the game by the developers.Unintentional Macros - usually this uses some outside program to continually do a sequence of mouse or keyboard inputs in a fashion to increase a player's skill without them having to be at the keyboard.
I agree with this.
The examples given in the first post are certainly rude, obnoxious jerks who I would play or group with, but that doesn't make them greifers, or hackers, or that they were doing anything 'unethical' (other then being rude).
Just 'cause it's massively multiplayer doesn't mean you have to play with everyone. If some is an obnoxious jerk, put them on ignore and continue to have fun with the game.
Originally posted by Lotarious Just 'cause it's massively multiplayer doesn't mean you have to play with everyone. If some is an obnoxious jerk, put them on ignore and continue to have fun with the game.
I think we all agree with this. This whole thread just started with people wanting to discuss others acting this way. Just because someone wanted to discuss this did not mean it had to turn into a flame fest. Some people just want to attack others... This is suppose to be a discussion...
The original poster was just wanting to talk about poeple he saw acting this way. It is other people who took it wrongly and wanted to attack him... It is a perfectly fair topic to discuss, people shuldn't take this stuff personally.
Originally posted by TaskyZZ Hmmm, my car allows me to drive 120mph, so I should be able to do it... Hmmm, my car can run over pedestrians, so I should do it... They should make the cars not be able to do it, not make rules telling people not to do it... Is that the mentality here? "It is the car manufacturers fault, not mine officer. This car should only be able to go 65mph..."
I agree with you on this subject, cause I hate griefers myself.....but there is something called a speed limit, and jail that will prevent the vast majority of people from going 120mph and killing random people. I See Alients point, while I don't necessarily agree with it, I do see it. If there are no rules within the game to prevent things like kill stealing, than technically a player can do this. It may be disrespectful and "immoral", but he/she should still be able to do it...Xaldor
Originally posted by TaskyZZ The original poster was just wanting to talk about poeple he saw acting this way. It is other people who took it wrongly and wanted to attack him... It is a perfectly fair topic to discuss, people shuldn't take this stuff personally.
I agree, I just think part of the solution is people just not putting up with stuff like that in game. If more people made use of ignore and started ostracizing the obnoxious jerks in game maybe they'd shape up and stop actin' a fool.
Maybe we need a feedback option like eBay has. Where you can put a small blurb that is tagged to the player. Then, if a guy runs up and asks to join your group, you can pull up his feedback and see what others have to say about him
Maybe even floating above their head next to their name will can see the average feedback score he got. So, you can see a guy with a score of 2.5 out of 10 running up to you, and you know instantly to just ignore him.
That would be too easy. In RL you have to go by word of mouth and your own experiences. It should be the same in a virtual world. If Charlie X is a kill stealer, and he comes near me when I'm hunting, then I may or may not suspect him. It all depends on of I remember him from stealing kills before, or if I overheard others bad-mouthing him. It's a pretty fair system in my opinion.
Dont change, you enjoy the game and it is all that matter.
Uberness is great in itself and I will always try to reach it as much as I can, but I will never quit a group for a better land promise, it can wait for another day!
What the person say about 3 days while you take 3 months is plainly rude and not taking into account many factors. It is pretty easy to achieve stuff much faster if your actual goal is only that(sometimes it is my goal and I do compete with them those times). But, many players build differents groups and try to do fun stuff and risk a lot. Not to forget, 3 days X 24 hours = 72 hours of play, for you 72 hours of play is more likely many week or even a few months if we exclude all the *downtime* to build groups and talk and all! I mean, if you play 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, and *waste* 1 hour each time in talking and building the group, it mean a week have 5 X 5 -4 = 21 hours of play, so it is more then 3 weeks for you to have the same amount of time played that this freak have in 3 days! (I can be kinda freak myself, no dishonor is admitting it)
The fastest levelers are not adventurers, they are farmers in adventurers garbs! (and yes, I am 1 of them most of the time, and I will proudly bear my farmer badge, yet, farming and adventuring are not the same)
Anyway, base rule all folks should follow: When you want to exploit the machine and abuse it baddly, dont do it at the expense of others players, do it soloing or with folks that think like you as away as possible from the main stream!
- 1 day for a freak is 24 hours of game play, while for a decent human beeing it should be 5 hours or less. A freak play 7 days a week, a decent human beeing have responsabilities and cant play all this time.
- A freak dont spend much time talking and building group
Powerleveling and macros lead to disaster in the long run, all my friends that abuse those end up lacking eventually in later games, because they grow lazy and expect everything to be easy! Dont use either, do it the hard, pure freak way!
I am somewhere between those 2...niak niak niak! I will be happy to group with you, and the other day to own the zone SOLO what that freak do in a group because he lack! :P
<---- Over 400 days played in EQ with all my toon, I am mostly a freak myself!!! *cry* *giggles*
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Now, each of those days is a full 24 hours of play time.
I have real job 2 years since EQ was out and was unable to play EQ during those 2 years...
So guess what I do when I have ghetto jobs? :P
*start acting like a drone that click on the EverQuest icon*
My *main* character barely have around 250 days played althought...LOL barely *giggles*
I could have sell stuff on ebays for a few K and I am definitely poor, but...I would have lost the very fun the game bring me, and that fun >>>> a few K!
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You meet nasty people in all mmorpgs.Just how many you meet is the issue.I hated AC/AC2 but found it to have the best community around.Found UO to have the worst and EQ kind of in the middle.
Most uber players have a real poor outside life.Many do not work and those that do tend to work part time in some minimum job.
While many uber players are friendly many of them tend to need to be the "big man" as they are the "small man" in real life.
Originally posted by TaskyZZ Maybe we need a feedback option like eBay has. Where you can put a small blurb that is tagged to the player. Then, if a guy runs up and asks to join your group, you can pull up his feedback and see what others have to say about him Maybe even floating above their head next to their name will can see the average feedback score he got. So, you can see a guy with a score of 2.5 out of 10 running up to you, and you know instantly to just ignore him.
Well intentioned idea, but a very bad one.
Imagine how much fun a griefer could have with that...just running around and tagging random people with horrible things and the lowest scores possible.
Making a second toon just to run around and write nasty things about people without his main toon taking the blame.
Moderators needed to constantly monitor and remove tags that violate the rules.
Originally posted by TaskyZZ Maybe we need a feedback option like eBay has. Where you can put a small blurb that is tagged to the player. Then, if a guy runs up and asks to join your group, you can pull up his feedback and see what others have to say about him Maybe even floating above their head next to their name will can see the average feedback score he got. So, you can see a guy with a score of 2.5 out of 10 running up to you, and you know instantly to just ignore him.
Well intentioned idea, but a very bad one.
Imagine how much fun a griefer could have with that...just running around and tagging random people with horrible things and the lowest scores possible.
Making a second toon just to run around and write nasty things about people without his main toon taking the blame.
Moderators needed to constantly monitor and remove tags that violate the rules.
Well, his idea could be worked out.
But it is dangerous in a low developpment form.
Does a dev team actually want to developp this much? I dont think it is worth the efforts but...
If the system would be worked a lot, someone giving to many comments would have a smaller voice, there would be a *danger* warning beside every comment he does, while a respected player would get a thumb up! Yet, this need lot of human control as well, I honestly dont think it is worth it.
On the side note, I think a guildleader could put such a comment on everyone in his/her guild, especially if they /guildremove...there is no point in writing rudes comments for him as in the long run, they would turn against him, yet, he can if he judge the person is deserving it, and managing guildleaders reduce the managing job a lot and they are usually serious enought to start with...Of course there are smaller and bigger guild, younger and older, so there could be a mark beside each comment to reflect how strong that comment should be considered...
A comment from UBERGUILD Guildleader from an early stage is definitely not to be considered like the comment of the later stage of the guild.
Someone could read fast beside my name a comment like: Kind, helpfull, skilled, nice player, saddly the harbored dislike of raiding is disproportionnal.
See, this is relevant information, and how could I argue about that? :P I mean, they are rubbing my pride in the same time they say I am a very poor asset to a guild, *shrug*, that is fine with me.
And it would be easy for a game to manage the comments of the guildleaders...one or two hundred guild per server? That is a lot easier to handle and you average guildleader is starting a lot more serious then the average player(there are some guildleaders that are immatures of course, but less in average compare to player pool).
Ano
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Yes I at me too was such problem with MMORPGamers! I remember once played DarkEden and there in fight I have casually thrown out the weapon on which collected money of the whole two weeks. Every night I came and play in DarkEden just to buy this weapon and would be pumped over too two weeks that it to dress! But when I have tried to dress it in fight it have casually fallen also one of fighters have taken it to myself though by his level it could not dress it! I have asked it to return to me the weapon, I have told that it has fallen casually, but he has run away and say just this "Sorry"
P.S. Sorry if i have mistakes ,my english is bad ...
Comments
Malkavian brings up a good point though. The game doesn't have to be designed with every aspect already thought of. Developers or even server owners (eg. FPS games) can still lay down their own rules for people to follow even if they aren't built into the game. People still have to follow these rules. Just because UT2004 doesn't have a profanity filter doesn't mean the server owner can state his own rules that if anyone uses profanity that he will kick them from the server.
My whole point is, that if people are following the rules, don't complain about them.
I agree with this.
The examples given in the first post are certainly rude, obnoxious jerks who I would play or group with, but that doesn't make them greifers, or hackers, or that they were doing anything 'unethical' (other then being rude).
Just 'cause it's massively multiplayer doesn't mean you have to play with everyone. If some is an obnoxious jerk, put them on ignore and continue to have fun with the game.
---------------------------------
Killer 80%|Achiever 53%|Socializer 46%|Explorer 20%
I think we all agree with this. This whole thread just started with people wanting to discuss others acting this way. Just because someone wanted to discuss this did not mean it had to turn into a flame fest. Some people just want to attack others... This is suppose to be a discussion...
The original poster was just wanting to talk about poeple he saw acting this way. It is other people who took it wrongly and wanted to attack him... It is a perfectly fair topic to discuss, people shuldn't take this stuff personally.
I agree, I just think part of the solution is people just not putting up with stuff like that in game. If more people made use of ignore and started ostracizing the obnoxious jerks in game maybe they'd shape up and stop actin' a fool.
---------------------------------
Killer 80%|Achiever 53%|Socializer 46%|Explorer 20%
Maybe we need a feedback option like eBay has. Where you can put a small blurb that is tagged to the player. Then, if a guy runs up and asks to join your group, you can pull up his feedback and see what others have to say about him
Maybe even floating above their head next to their name will can see the average feedback score he got. So, you can see a guy with a score of 2.5 out of 10 running up to you, and you know instantly to just ignore him.
That would be too easy. In RL you have to go by word of mouth and your own experiences. It should be the same in a virtual world. If Charlie X is a kill stealer, and he comes near me when I'm hunting, then I may or may not suspect him. It all depends on of I remember him from stealing kills before, or if I overheard others bad-mouthing him. It's a pretty fair system in my opinion.
*hug Aprilly*
Dont change, you enjoy the game and it is all that matter.
Uberness is great in itself and I will always try to reach it as much as I can, but I will never quit a group for a better land promise, it can wait for another day!
What the person say about 3 days while you take 3 months is plainly rude and not taking into account many factors. It is pretty easy to achieve stuff much faster if your actual goal is only that(sometimes it is my goal and I do compete with them those times). But, many players build differents groups and try to do fun stuff and risk a lot. Not to forget, 3 days X 24 hours = 72 hours of play, for you 72 hours of play is more likely many week or even a few months if we exclude all the *downtime* to build groups and talk and all! I mean, if you play 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, and *waste* 1 hour each time in talking and building the group, it mean a week have 5 X 5 -4 = 21 hours of play, so it is more then 3 weeks for you to have the same amount of time played that this freak have in 3 days! (I can be kinda freak myself, no dishonor is admitting it)
The fastest levelers are not adventurers, they are farmers in adventurers garbs! (and yes, I am 1 of them most of the time, and I will proudly bear my farmer badge, yet, farming and adventuring are not the same)
Anyway, base rule all folks should follow: When you want to exploit the machine and abuse it baddly, dont do it at the expense of others players, do it soloing or with folks that think like you as away as possible from the main stream!
- 1 day for a freak is 24 hours of game play, while for a decent human beeing it should be 5 hours or less. A freak play 7 days a week, a decent human beeing have responsabilities and cant play all this time.
- A freak dont spend much time talking and building group
Powerleveling and macros lead to disaster in the long run, all my friends that abuse those end up lacking eventually in later games, because they grow lazy and expect everything to be easy! Dont use either, do it the hard, pure freak way!
I am somewhere between those 2...niak niak niak! I will be happy to group with you, and the other day to own the zone SOLO what that freak do in a group because he lack! :P
<---- Over 400 days played in EQ with all my toon, I am mostly a freak myself!!! *cry* *giggles*
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
400 days played... OMG...
*nod*
400 days played in EQ...
Now, each of those days is a full 24 hours of play time.
I have real job 2 years since EQ was out and was unable to play EQ during those 2 years...
So guess what I do when I have ghetto jobs? :P
*start acting like a drone that click on the EverQuest icon*
My *main* character barely have around 250 days played althought...LOL barely *giggles*
I could have sell stuff on ebays for a few K and I am definitely poor, but...I would have lost the very fun the game bring me, and that fun >>>> a few K!
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You meet nasty people in all mmorpgs.Just how many you meet is the issue.I hated AC/AC2 but found it to have the best community around.Found UO to have the worst and EQ kind of in the middle.
Most uber players have a real poor outside life.Many do not work and those that do tend to work part time in some minimum job.
While many uber players are friendly many of them tend to need to be the "big man" as they are the "small man" in real life.
Well intentioned idea, but a very bad one.
Imagine how much fun a griefer could have with that...just running around and tagging random people with horrible things and the lowest scores possible.
Making a second toon just to run around and write nasty things about people without his main toon taking the blame.
Moderators needed to constantly monitor and remove tags that violate the rules.
Well intentioned idea, but a very bad one.
Imagine how much fun a griefer could have with that...just running around and tagging random people with horrible things and the lowest scores possible.
Making a second toon just to run around and write nasty things about people without his main toon taking the blame.
Moderators needed to constantly monitor and remove tags that violate the rules.
Well, his idea could be worked out.
But it is dangerous in a low developpment form.
Does a dev team actually want to developp this much? I dont think it is worth the efforts but...
If the system would be worked a lot, someone giving to many comments would have a smaller voice, there would be a *danger* warning beside every comment he does, while a respected player would get a thumb up! Yet, this need lot of human control as well, I honestly dont think it is worth it.
On the side note, I think a guildleader could put such a comment on everyone in his/her guild, especially if they /guildremove...there is no point in writing rudes comments for him as in the long run, they would turn against him, yet, he can if he judge the person is deserving it, and managing guildleaders reduce the managing job a lot and they are usually serious enought to start with...Of course there are smaller and bigger guild, younger and older, so there could be a mark beside each comment to reflect how strong that comment should be considered...
A comment from UBERGUILD Guildleader from an early stage is definitely not to be considered like the comment of the later stage of the guild.
Someone could read fast beside my name a comment like: Kind, helpfull, skilled, nice player, saddly the harbored dislike of raiding is disproportionnal.
See, this is relevant information, and how could I argue about that? :P I mean, they are rubbing my pride in the same time they say I am a very poor asset to a guild, *shrug*, that is fine with me.
And it would be easy for a game to manage the comments of the guildleaders...one or two hundred guild per server? That is a lot easier to handle and you average guildleader is starting a lot more serious then the average player(there are some guildleaders that are immatures of course, but less in average compare to player pool).
Ano
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Yes I at me too was such problem with MMORPGamers! I remember once played DarkEden and there in fight I have casually thrown out the weapon on which collected money of the whole two weeks. Every night I came and play in DarkEden just to buy this weapon and would be pumped over too two weeks that it to dress! But when I have tried to dress it in fight it have casually fallen also one of fighters have taken it to myself though by his level it could not dress it! I have asked it to return to me the weapon, I have told that it has fallen casually, but he has run away and say just this "Sorry"
P.S. Sorry if i have mistakes ,my english is bad ...
Just One Word Freedom !!!
Just One Word Freedom !!!