POLL >> Should DEVS/GMS be able to play in their Customer's Political Alliances?

fisherc

Common responses for yes/no:

YES:

• They have designed the game, why shouldn't they be able to?
• Knowing how to play the game and it's downfalls help them make the game better.
• A few corrupt Devs/GMS should not ruin the game for the moral devs.
• Devs are existant in all major alliances anyways.

NO:

• CCP is bound to encounter corrupt DEV/GMS and should protect the credibility of themselves and their game by taking preventative measures, not reactionary.
• CCP Should at least take the stance of making it flagrantly visible, what characters are currently playing on an Admin/Dev/GM Account.
• Their Creation is meant for their customers.  Playing the game with insider knowledge just isn't fair to the people who support them.  Especially with EPIC Content such as Empire Warfare.
• No, the chance of them cheating is just too great and unfair to their customers.

Feel free to state aditional reasons below

EDIT: Added Poll to the subject title

 

fisherc

The Question I asked myself is: In a game like EvE where content is truly EPIC with galactic domination, years of effort at stake in war and extremely difficult to obtain BPO's, should they? 

WoW and other games answer is simply yes.  DEVS/GMS being corrupt does not really affect their customers. Games like WoW have very little at stake.

However, in EVE, years of effort could be at stake. Time is invested into Outposts which could fall with simple dev corruption and not to mention the  Severe Advantages that could be gained with corruptoin.  With so much at stake, the answer is no.  Since dev Corruption is bound to happen.  WoW/Diablo 2 have had corrupt Devs... many other games have had corrupt GMS.  It's GOING to happen, they should take steps to prevent it. Prohibiting them from playing with customer alliances is one way, make them all part of the ISD.

It's my personal opinion that they should AT LEAST take the stance Asherons call had on DEV's/GM's.  Make them FLAGRANTLY visible.  In Asherons call they showed up in a bright pink dot on the map with special effects surrounding them when they were on an admin account, with admin capabilities.  AT very least the same thing should apply to eve.  To make DEV/GM Participation more visible to outsiders.

Saekora

No, they shouldn't be allowed to participate.

PegasusJF

I saw yes, it is there game afterall. But there is a risk of corruption so such actions should be transparent.

iCeh

No, not in an Alliance. They should just play the game on their own, because somehow, i can't see a Dev mining, or ratting to get money... it seems like a big chunk of their time wasted if they do mine or hunt NPCs on Tranquility (none testing purposes).

I think it's great that they play the game, but taking part in Alliance Wars can really do damage, and players will feel they have an unfair advantage if they knew they just got killed by a Dev/GM.

WARCRYtm

I think, that they can play the game but not with the power to change it.

That they have an account like me or you, to play wen they are no working.

Rod_B

Hold it for a minute.

Discussing what devs do on their dev/admin accounts is rather useless. Those aren't teh accounts we're talking about here. Those admin accounts with the gm powers etc don't get to be in player corps. They are all in either non-playyer accesible NPC corps (events) or in ISD, the gm/dev/eventstaff/moderator corporation ingame, that is very very recognisable and of which every memebr action is continuously audtited by dedicated CCP staffers.

So, in my opinion, yes, ccp emplyees should damn well be allowed to play the game. The only possible damage corruption could do in my eyes is when insider info of a nature that can be abused gets out through loosely-lipped devs. That info is extremely rare in this game anyway, since ALL pending changes are well known in advance, and can be tried out weeks upfront on the public test server.

That leaves inttricate knowledge of of example algoruthms that npc spawns are based off, which is of no more use then normal player experience on that subject will be, since direct meddling is more or less impossible again due to audits of all chars witht direct powers.

So if thats no possibility either, only competitive events with certain prizes that are based off of things you could prepare for upfront remain as sources of possible damage. For that no solution remains since event staff is employees as well as volunteers, and indeed no option but putting trust in them and having them follow stringent guidlines with regard to information dissemination remains.

 

Dinion

As long as they don't hold any power I'm fine with it....

emptyballoon

Devs should be allowed to play the game.  They should not let anyone else know they are devs.  And the should not, for example, obtain a t2 BP for an alliance.

If they do then CCP should

• Sack the dev
• Permaban the leader of the alliance
• Disband the alliance

By doing so they will send out a strong message that cheating wont be tolerated, anything less and we will know that they dont really want our money and we should jump to ST:O as soon as we can.

 

darkfish0

Why not? Imagine if you became head of argos, and fixed the prices so you could get a cheap washing machine :P Does this mean staff of argos shouldnt be allowed to shop there. I wouldnt like to become a dev and say, no, you cant carry on playing the game you have playedand loved the last 3 years. I cant see it can do harm, as i am sure all devs are monitored closely(there's only what, 20?)

Taram

I am SOOOO sick of the conspiracy whiners.

Yes, let them play their game. Or would you rather have people who haven't got a clue about the gameplay working on it?

Gamrag

With the current system, where there are no real checks on what a Dev is doing when playing on his own private account, I'd have to say no. That does not mean I don't think Devs shouldn't play the game. They should, and I am well aware of all the advantages that comes with that.



However, there is no limit on what a Dev can get involved in with currently. Is it really a good idea for a Dev to be a director or even CEO of a major 0.0 corp or alliance? That's the question that has been brought up by BoBgate. Should someone who makes the game, has a great deal of knowledge about the game that cannot be obtained by simply playing, it be in charge of the epic end game content of EvE?



The possibility of bias are too great,  IMO.  And even if there is no wrongdoing, there will always be the perception that something fishy is going on. Maybe BoB did earn everything with their hard work. But can you be sure of that now, knowing that a Dev as a director, told other people that he was a Dev and even went and tried to get members of BoB to apply for a job at CCP?



CCP needs to put some limits on what is allowed and what is not. Devs can play the game, but there needs to be limits on what they are allowed to do. There needs to be a clear code of conduct for Devs and made available to the community so people can report possible abuses.



The current system needs to be changed, IMO. As it stands, everyone looses out. This applies especially to the membership of BoB. Despite all the crap thrown at them, the vast majority of BoB are great folks who put a lot of time and effort into the game to get where they are. They deserve better then to get that kind of crap thrown at them by CCP.



The EvE community should really all band together and get this changed.

Aedosen

Definetly yes. Basicly they need to know their game inside out to be able to make the right decisions and also in the end it is their game that they love to play. CCP made the game they wanted to play and thats why I think it succeeded. Forcing devs out of the game, which is basicly what forcing them out of corps/alliances (which in the end are the bread and butter of EVE), would most likely in the end mean the downfall of EVE. Even though I don´t obviously condone dev/GM giving someone unfair advantage it is still pretty minor thing if you look at the big picture and that happening is definetly a risk CCP needs to take.

MadAce

It's a pretty weird idea but I think devs shouldn't be able to have extra powers ingame. Don't really know how to do that tho.

nitefly

The developers should do what they are there for:



Keep the subscribers entertained.



I actually don't really see the reason for this to be hindered in any way. Why allow some random person to gain an advantage when you can hand it over to a specific individual that has contact (or even better influence) with a significant chunk of the gamer population. EVE is a small niche-game, they should be allowed to control the game any way they like.



Of course things are handed out and of course this means that not everybody has the same chance. So what? Really, so what? Does that make the game any worse? Propably not, you most likely wouldn't even notice and if it means that a huge alliance is kept  entertained doesn't that just mean more subscribers are staying and therefore more content could be developed?



Yes it does. EVE is not World of Warcraft, a bit of community grease is not hurting anyone.

Nicoli

Originally posted by WARCRYtm


I think, that they can play the game but not with the power to change it.
That they have an account like me or you, to play wen they are no working.

All Corporate accounts (those that have some semblance of power to Dev accounts) are coded so that thier text will always be shaded to the appropriate color in the chat windows. You get somebody talking in Corp with a teal color and you got a ISD powered account in your corp. IIRC Blue is a Developer tool powered account. Colors maybe wrong but I did get a chance to ask if they're player accounts are a seperate character on thier ISD account and they said different accounts completely due to the issue with color text giving away thier Job.



GM, Devs, and ISD personnel use the same account that all the rest of us do for  to play the game for fun. Only difference is that thiers has the billing flag turned off so they don't get charged for it.



The only thing roughly confirmed is that a Dev goofed up and suggested a player submit a application to CCP on his player account. Should he get fired for that, No. Should the corp/alliance he was apart if get touched in anyway, No. Should that character on his player account be removed from the Game, Yes. Let him make a new character and start from scratch as penalty for let the cat out of the bag so to speak.



As for all the other accusations, I plan on waiting on CCP since I have NO facts whats so ever to back any of them up.

fisherc

Interesting, 35 % currently say they shouldn't.

I actually expected closer to 25% but it is a small sample

Even 25% saying no should be enough for CCP to say 'alright, we shouldn't play with our customer's politics, even if we aren't actually doing anything wrong and just participating'

Moghidin

I voted NO. As I posted on Eve internal forums, the conflict of interest is the main reason for it. And besides that, there WERE cases of corruption or cases which smelled corruption but were overlooked by CCP.  I won't give examples here, since those who don't play Eve probably won't understand them. In any case, the Devs and GMs can influence the game in favor of their alliance even if they won't explicitly abuse their powers and "create" valuable items for themselves. In Eve, as OP stated, players invest time and hard work into creating their empires, and unlike in many other games, all that work can be lost very quickly. That's why even a hint of favoritism or corruption is a piece of very negative PR for Eve. Who would like to work for a year to build something, when your opposition gets insider info and help from the Devs? Insider info can be extremely important factor as well, and leak of that info can not be traced or prevented if one of the Devs is simply chatting with his alliance friends. Who would even know? Future boosts and nerfs, new planned changes; all can be very profitable in the right hands. How about training for some new module that is going to be boosted, and complete that training, when the module stats change and your opponents just starting to understand how the module works now? How about help from Devs on some internal issues on how the client works under heavy strain, how to configure it better to reduce lag - knowledge that only those who know the code can posess. The list is huge tbh.



Contrary to what is said here the game is not "their" game. They are employees, they work for their employer - CCP and the game belongs to CCP and not to a specific GM or a Dev who are hired personnel after all. To test the game is absolutely NOT necessary to play it near  "end-game" content level. There's no end-game content in Eve, but alliance political warfare is as close as it gets. Even a rumor of Devs assisting certain political power can be very damaging for a game, and if CCP personnel are involved at playing at that level, those rumors WILL start spreading. It doesn't even matter if they are justified or not, they WILL damage the game. So, is it worth to risk a PR disaster to let the Devs and GMs to mix with their paying customers? People sometimes underestimate the bond that is created between corporation and alliance members. Many gamers spend more time with their on-line friends than they spend with their RL friends, especially in super dedicated alliances. It would take an effort of titanic proportion for a Dev not to tell one of his friends that such and such changes are being planned or that a certain event is going to happen, or to reply  "I don't know" if he is asked about how to tweak the client to reduce lag. And all those things are pretty innocent compared to other possible abuses.

nitefly

Very nice post, Moghidin.



It highlights the core of the issue: Credibility.



The posters claiming that no real proof has been presented are basically putting on a voluntary blind-fold. With any luck, Moghidin's very well worded post will shine a bit of light on what the avid fans find so hard to even contemplate.

Minsc

Originally posted by Gamrag

With the current system, where there are no real checks on what a Dev is doing when playing on his own private account, I'd have to say no. That does not mean I don't think Devs shouldn't play the game. They should, and I am well aware of all the advantages that comes with that.



What are you talking about, CCP devs are REQUIRED to devulge info on all of their personally owned accounts for regular internal audits. If they sneeze the CCP will have a log of it. Why would you even think that was not the case?



However, there is no limit on what a Dev can get involved in with currently. Is it really a good idea for a Dev to be a director or even CEO of a major 0.0 corp or alliance? That's the question that has been brought up by BoBgate. Should someone who makes the game, has a great deal of knowledge about the game that cannot be obtained by simply playing, it be in charge of the epic end game content of EvE?



As has been said, everything gets put on the test server before it goes live. EVERYBODY, barring the idiots that can't follow test server rules, has access to that server to learn about the new features weeks before it goes live. There is little if any advantage gained by any info they would release to their corp.



The possibility of bias are too great,  IMO.  And even if there is no wrongdoing, there will always be the perception that something fishy is going on. Maybe BoB did earn everything with their hard work. But can you be sure of that now, knowing that a Dev as a director, told other people that he was a Dev and even went and tried to get members of BoB to apply for a job at CCP?



That dev closed his accounts and left corp when he was found out, the t2 bpo's that he had were given to his corp before he did that. I don't see the problem in that. If I was effectively killing off a character I would likely do the same if I was still friendly with my corpmates.



CCP needs to put some limits on what is allowed and what is not. Devs can play the game, but there needs to be limits on what they are allowed to do. There needs to be a clear code of conduct for Devs and made available to the community so people can report possible abuses.



Yeah that'll be great, any time something happens that someone doesn't like it'll be reported as dev abuse.



The current system needs to be changed, IMO. As it stands, everyone looses out. This applies especially to the membership of BoB. Despite all the crap thrown at them, the vast majority of BoB are great folks who put a lot of time and effort into the game to get where they are. They deserve better then to get that kind of crap thrown at them by CCP.



The EvE community should really all band together and get this changed.



If the dev did anything wrong he will be fired, I have no doubt about that. I imagine that will be the absolute hardest thing for anyone to do at CCP because they are such a close-knit company but I don't doubt that it will be done if necessary.

eoweth

---

Originally posted by Nicoli
All Corporate accounts (those that have some semblance of power to Dev accounts) are coded so that thier text will always be shaded to the appropriate color in the chat windows. You get somebody talking in Corp with a teal color and you got a ISD powered account in your corp.

---

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!

Absolutely no CCP dev accounts are members of any corporation with players in it. You do not get someone in your corp with teal color or any "powers" at all. Devs/GMs/ISD do play the game, but with their own separate and completely normal accounts. Their "work" accounts are totally separate and constantly logged and never used to "play" the game.

Where do people get ideas like this??

fisherc

"never used to "play" the game. "

I like the quotes around "play".

iCeh

Originally posted by eoweth


 

Originally posted by Nicoli

All Corporate accounts (those that have some semblance of power to Dev accounts) are coded so that thier text will always be shaded to the appropriate color in the chat windows. You get somebody talking in Corp with a teal color and you got a ISD powered account in your corp.

 

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!

Absolutely no CCP dev accounts are members of any corporation with players in it. You do not get someone in your corp with teal color or any "powers" at all. Devs/GMs/ISD do play the game, but with their own separate and completely normal accounts. Their "work" accounts are totally separate and constantly logged and never used to "play" the game.

Where do people get ideas like this??

That was his point. He was pointing out, that if there were a Dev in a player corp then you'd know about it because of those chat colours. He/She (can't view people's profiles for some reason. ;/) then went on to say that Devs/GMs do play the game, on different accounts.

eoweth

---

Originally posted by iCeh
That was his point. He was pointing out, that if there were a Dev in a player corp then you'd know about it because of those chat colours. He/She (can't view people's profiles for some reason. ;/) then went on to say that Devs/GMs do play the game, on different accounts.

---

Must have been worded badly than, sorry. After reading it three times I can see what you thought it meant! heh

But you'll never see colored text in a player corp since those special accounts aren't used to play the game with. And if for some reason a dev got stupid and used his special account to give items or whatever to his normal account that'll be logged and caught by CCP. Getting fired for some items in a computer game seems pretty stupid. It hasn't stopped everyone (that silly GM over the summer.. what a dummy!) but if it happens I'm fully confident that CCP would catch it and stop it before it had any impact on the game.

Limiting devs from playing the game they know and love in the name of this stupid witchhunt is just insane. Anyone wins because they try harder and play better, not because some of their members might be a dev for their day job.

fisherc

You don't see the Referee's of any sport playing in the same league they referee.

Why should the Referee's of EVE be treated differently?

Tulisin

Originally posted by fisherc


You don't see the Referee's of any sport playing in the same league they referee.
Why should the Referee's of EVE be treated differently?

Why not, though? It isn't like they have referee powers when they're actually playing the game.

Furthermore, referees, like game designers, are expected to know the subject matter which they're governing. I am sure playing the game that they're refereeing is required for a ref, just like playing the game is required for a game dev.

The only problem with the same concept in EVE is that devs can have insider information. Provided that you can trust devs to keep info to themselves in addition to them not being able to use avatar account powers (special designer/CS stuff), I see no reason why they cannot be part of player corps for:

1. Experience with the game/playerbase that they're working on/for.

2. Getting to play the game which they obviously enjoy and find interesting (not many designers will sign on to work on a game which they don't enjoy playing).