Grind vs non grind(poll)

unherdninja

Hello,

Im currently unable to find a good non-monster grind game. I used to play runescape for 2 years do to the fact the there is little mob grind(for me). But as Ive gone through every MMORPG out there ive noticed that everything from Skills to quest revolve around grinding. So ive just put up a poll to find out if it is because The community likes grinding or the devs are ignoring us and just mking what they want to get the game out there.

 

 

Kbob

Grind sux, thats why guild wars is so  popular, it doenst have as much grind.

meepins

 

Here are a couple of my previous posts on why a long grind is a major failing within a game. Originally posted by Taera There are games that let you jump right into the action, games that have a quick leveling process, and games that have a long grind.  It's really just one of those cases of different strokes for different folks.  Myself, I like a game that takes a long time to get to the upper levels It makes me feel more satisfied and rewarded for my effort, and I enjoy the journey through content, not just the end game. The fact of the matter is grinding is a mechanism that acts as artificial content. Long grinds are the spotlight that shine  upon  the limitations of developers and/or the current state of technology available to do what they would ideally like to be able to do. It takes a simple minded person to take pleasure in boring repetitive actions for extensive periods, for a supposed reward. Believe me I understand the calming effects of simple repetitive actions, but when that encompasses the majority of a game... well then it is a failure. Ideally what is wanted are games that are compelling and entertaining, not chores.

Originally posted by Gorilla Why does challenging have to mean mindless repetition, Time sinks, faction grind  etc.? Just offer a few nebulous rewards +436 sword of BS rather than +411 excellent! Grind was a BMcQ invention he should tradmark it! Check out http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/113698 its in response to the recently announced UO graphic spruce up. After a dozen or so posts people start reminising about what made UO challenging and fun. Possibly one of the most 'hardcore' mmorpgs ever.  A lot of that magic was discarded in EQ1. EQ1 had its own magic it also had some real cahcah. Also take a look at Steve Wilsons article on the Notion of Work in MMORPG's http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/1100 also some interesting comments in reply. He's talking about casual players butI as a hardcore player I want the same things. I think this is the main reason there are so many so called 'haters'. Personally I am not but I do hold BMcQ responsible for some appalling 'unfun' game mechanics. In a cynical and single minded way he introduced things like camping and grinding to keep people playing longer.  I dunno how Vanguard will turn out if it turns into a grindfest I hope people send a clear message by withdrawing there $'s. If not great, have fun! I know Brad swings by now and then....nothing personal I respect your work ethic and passion. I just hope you have correctly identified what was fun in EQ and what was absolute tedium frustrating and just plain bad. I agree with what you say and I'll give an example where a game got it right. Let's look at Counter-Strike, the popular mod for Half-Life as I am very familiar with this having played it for around 4 years at least. This game started out as a simple mod created by two people. There is very little complicated about this game. The core of the game is based around some very simple dynamics of counter terrorist and terrorist trying to accomplish an objective in a relatively small sandbox map.The majority of the games population have played this game on a small number of maps with the same weapons and pretty much the same everything for 5+ years. It is as compelling today as it was when it started and would still be incredibly popular if the developers hadn't made the mess it has with their Source sequel.CS is proof you don't need fancy bells and whistles to make a compelling game that people enjoy for many years. You don't get any shiny glowy guns after playing CS for such and such amount of time.Playing the game and becoming accomplished at it , was it's own reward. Needless to say the formula of popular MMO's of today :   Time x Boring Grind = Item Reward , I feel is wrong and unbalanced and needs fixing soon.

paulscott

grind isn't bad,  pointless grind is.

nomadian

grind automatically insinuates activity which is unfun and repetitive.

unherdninja

We need more votes!!! Thanx all that voted!!!!!

Bronenek

I don't really care whether there is a grind or not, as long as I'm having fun in the game.

Faur

Doesn't matter. I've played mmo's where the main objective is to grind, but as long as it's fun and relaxing, I'm in.



No grinding is great too, definately, it's just that the "no grinding guaranteed" type mmo's usually don't have much longevity. It's tough to combine longevity with no repetitive tasks needing to be done.

cptbollock

I liked my first grind in SWG...i mean okay i was still grinding but it never felt that way,what with the theme parks and other content.But jedi was a pain in he ass,I do hate the kill 10 rat's ect ect grind

AutemOx

I've played fun games with and without a grind.  I know that mmos can be fun without grinds...  I've had fun in Guild Wars and Planetside...  Neither has any grind for levels or items.  Most mmos seem to think grinding is necessary for fun...  Huge oversight really.    Look at all those people who chose 'no grind'!

Originally posted by cptbollock

I liked my first grind in SWG...i mean okay i was still grinding but it never felt that way,what with the theme parks and other content.But jedi was a pain in he ass,I do hate the kill 10 rat's ect ect grind

I never minded the grind in SWG much either.  I think its because the SWG grind went pretty fast really, it wasnt hard to master a profession...  Its just that after you master one, you are always like, ohhh i want to master another now, so you end up grinding again!  I liked that freedom, it keeps you busy without letting you get bored.

cityzen

I don't mind killing monsters to level, Just have a problem with killing the same monsters over and over (ie AO).

Also, you still have to grind monsters in Guildwars for gear, just not levels.

Jimmy_Scythe

Grind is a tough thing to pin down really. For some people, Gran Turismo was a grind because you had to keep running the same races over and over again in order to get new cars and upgrade them. For other people, Dragon Warrior 1 for the NES was one of the most compelling RPGs they ever played. Play through a whole season of Madden 07 or NBA 2K in one setting and tell me it doesn't test your gaming endurance.



In MMORPGs, grind is usually the result of boring combat for solo players. So far, the only combat that I've had fun doing solo was in Guild Wars and Eve Online. In all other MMORPGs, the fun didn't start until I got into a group. This is largely why single player games outshine MMORPGs. In most single player RPGs, you control a party of characters; thus giving you more options in combat. In MMORPGs, you only control one player and that limits  you to a great degree. It's only when you group with other people that combat opens up and becomes interesting. The most striking examples I can think of were CoH and Anarchy Online. By yourself those games are just plain horrible. But with a team, even clearing a low level dungeon is fun.



Then there are games where you do the same damn thing time after time, but the core gameplay is compelling. Street Fighter, Counter-Strike, Starcraft, chess, etc.. These represent the holy grail of game design and, as of yet, no one has managed to make an MMORPG that even comes close. Single player RPGs have actually been here for a long while. Check out FastCrawl and NetHack if you don't believe me.

unherdninja

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Grind is a tough thing to pin down really. For some people, Gran Turismo was a grind because you had to keep running the same races over and over again in order to get new cars and upgrade them. For other people, Dragon Warrior 1 for the NES was one of the most compelling RPGs they ever played. Play through a whole season of Madden 07 or NBA 2K in one setting and tell me it doesn't test your gaming endurance.



In MMORPGs, grind is usually the result of boring combat for solo players. So far, the only combat that I've had fun doing solo was in Guild Wars and Eve Online. In all other MMORPGs, the fun didn't start until I got into a group. This is largely why single player games outshine MMORPGs. In most single player RPGs, you control a party of characters; thus giving you more options in combat. In MMORPGs, you only control one player and that limits  you to a great degree. It's only when you group with other people that combat opens up and becomes interesting. The most striking examples I can think of were CoH and Anarchy Online. By yourself those games are just plain horrible. But with a team, even clearing a low level dungeon is fun.



Then there are games where you do the same damn thing time after time, but the core gameplay is compelling. Street Fighter, Counter-Strike, Starcraft, chess, etc.. These represent the holy grail of game design and, as of yet, no one has managed to make an MMORPG that even comes close. Single player RPGs have actually been here for a long while. Check out FastCrawl and NetHack if you don't believe me.

Wow, that was amazing. You are one of the first people to some up grind without having to post a whole page of text. Thank you truly thank you.

unherdninja

Wow were up to 51 votes! the more votes we get the better! think about it. it tells you around how many people are in these forums.

b0rderline99

grind to me means anything you do which is AT ALL boring in order to gain another level

so with my deffinition i dont see how it would be possible to like grinding

Leathel

What constitues as non-grind? Quests that don't request "go kill # critters?" Reading these forums I see alot of mention of the F2P games are all grind. Is that because there are no quests? From a development standpoint, what would you rather see?

unherdninja

sorry about that guys lets me clarify:

When i say grind i mean a game that You do the same thing over and over again.

Now When i say monster grind i mean a game that no matter what your doing (quest skills lvling) you HAVE to grind mobs all day. so basicly a game that you mine all day isnt mob grind.