I don't like power levelers much, it makes me think, why even play the game when you clearly can't be bothered to experience it yourself and have to pay someone else to level you up. Also it isn't fair for other people to see someone make it to a high level just because they have money to pay plvlers while they sit on their lazy asses. It isn't fair that the other players have to actually work their way to high levels because they can't pay for plvling.
leveling is just there to make money. Lets take WoW, lets say the lvl cap is lvl 30 and you just get new spells and talents every level instead of every other level. Then they just make Sm and up "end game" instances. You're not missing the experience of playing the game in this fashion, it's just that the game switches from level based to item based that much sooner. There are people that will learn combos of spells and how to use their abilities to the fullest, a lot of people learn this early, some people never do. I think most people have learned how to play their character in the lvl 30-35 range. Sure maybe not all the talent builds, but the basics of how their abilities work, and the people that don't probably never will grasp it until someone really drills it into their head (like teh_pwnerer says "you can train a noob, but then you just got a trained noob") So really lvl 35-60 to me is just there some extra subscription money.
So playing to level isn't that fun IMO, it's fun at the top levels when you can equip any piece of armor that drops (for your class) or when you can fly Caldari,Gallente,Minmatar, AND Amarr BS. This is the point at which you can experiment, like I hear running missions in a Raven is the way to go.... but I tried this apocolypse and it's way better IMO, and cheaper (before missile nerf cause you needed torps for firgs and cruisers). EVe's a bad example though since there isn't a cap.
all leveling is with a level cap in place is a long drawn out tutorial. It's like it might as well say "you have done well, now your next thing to learn is how to use a mount" or "great that's awesome you have done combat so far with a 2 hander or 1h/shield, now lets try dual wielding" or "you have mastered using the void to tank, lets try drain tanking now with a succubus now"
All those abilities you get a predetermined level is just like steps in a tutorial. Try this, ok now this, next try this, etc. In WoW it's like ok you're lvl 60 now, the tutorial is over you've learned all the abilities you can learn time to start playing. That is what wow dumb btw, going through a long fun tutorial just to do stupid raids.
So therefore teh game starts at end game. Leveling with a level cap in place is simply a tutorial, grats to the people that complete the tutorial fast. Really in WoW SM and up should be end game, cause you learn all you need to know once you get to SM (if you do dungeons and stuff like WC and SFK, if you solo and you don't know by then, it's not any different then soloing to 60 and not knowing either).
I mean really, there are 2 business models here:
1) make people take 3-6 months worth of subscription money to level then insert huge timesinks to try and keep them interested for as long as possible like Wow
2) keep people wanting to play forever and ever amen like EVE
Really the only difference is that one game has a level cap which means at some point it turns into item based instead of level based, the one game just becomes item based much earlier than the other. Eve has skills, but the game is more based on money tbh, if you get gifted 100 million when you're born the skill part might suck, but really you make money about as fast as you can level up your skills to use whatever you can buy so you can say it's item based from day 7 or so (realtime, cause that's how skills work) just like WoW is item based from day 8-15 (play time).
so powerlevelers are just going through the tutorial as fast as they can, and if the game is any good after that is what really matters.
I've even confused myself, but basically what i'm saying is all games are item based, but some take a while to get to that point, so I don't have anything against people that race to get the item based portion of the game, cause the leveling part is just a long tutorial.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Plvlers are simply a service provider.. Like a Merchant NPC... Why are there no posts flaming Merchant NPCs? They offer you a service, it is Your right to use it or not and the Game Devs approve it by not restricting it. There are Many games that nearly eliminate Plvling by not allowing you to party with chars who are X levels below you, or you get a severe XP penalty if they are X levels below you. If the Devs didnt want Plvling to exist, they have many ways of abolishing it. If they dont care then its free for all. What you should really be polling is not the Plvlers (they are just doing people a favor/service) You should be asking 'What do you think of people who Use Plvlers." Thats the better question. Its just like a game where there is a mercinary clan... do you hate them? or the people who use them. if there was no demand for a "hit" service that clan would not exist. Or a farmer who always has a supply of great mats and items. If no one needed/wanted those things, he would be out of a job. Things only exist because of necessity. If there was no demand for Plvling there would be no Plvlers. Simple hard economics. Dont hate the service provider. If you're gonna hate someone, hate the people who demand the service
Cheers!
Seriously well said. but also blame the devs for their lack of contents in their games.
IE Lineage 2, lvl 1-10 you had quest. then it was grind grind grind, besides the usual job change quest, then you had raids. raids/seiges only real content in the game. apparently its only for the end of the game. which calls for plvl to get to the end game contents.
Problem is devs put all the good contents at high levels. Which is why there is a need for plvling.
If more games were like WoW and you had quest and dungeons throughout every level then you really limit plvling services. Everyone would play atleast 1 character to lvl 60 (well 70 now) before using plvl service, thats considering you even have a guild to do end game contents.
So devs really play a role in plvling services. if they add more content to there games then it would help limit plvlings.
Ofcourse those who put in more time should garner more reward. Wouldn't you feel cheated if you played for hours only to find someone who played 10 minutes was your equal?
Yes, no one should ever be FORCED to face the reality of badly they suck. How terrible....
Anyway, on to the point I wanted to contribute.
Just what the hell is a level supposed to represent anyway? This is a throwback to the days of medieval miniatures wargames. You wanted a way to represent veteran troops and to display the amount of combat experience a unit had over a campaign of battles. You never got truly godlike units because they usually died before getting beyond two or three battles under their belt. But what does it represent in modern RPGs?
In pen and paper DnD, a character is considered "epic" at around lvl 30. At 60 a character is considered a god. In fact, the average person in any DnD universe never even gets to lvl one! Not only that, but there are several problems with the class / level system. What happens when your character trains in two disciplines? We have multi-class characters for that in PnP games, but not in most MMORPGs. Why can't a priest learn some wizard spells, or a paladin learn how to play a dulcimer? I'm studying to be a copywriter, but I know quite a bit about computer programming. I haven't ever worked as a computer programmer, so am I multi-classing or what?
More realistically, a person has a broad range of skills, abilities, and affinities that define their abilities. Levels are just an easy way to take the responsibility of character development from the players at the expense of freedom. Given, freedom is pretty scary. It's very easy to mess up and find yourself building a character in the opposite direction of what you intended. But the upswing is that no one can have all the bases covered just by playing longer than another player.
Get rid of levels and you get rid of powerlevelers.
Get rid of levels and you get rid of powerlevelers.
That maybe true but then there is a flaw in it.
If you get rid of levels, then that means equipment is everything.
Better equipment = higher cost = need lots of gold = more grinding = plvl, wait not plvl but gold services.
Gold farmers are born. Now your game economy is screwed. And your back to square one.
Levels are needed for attributes wise which in return would lead to weapon/armor requirements. Levels are needed to distinguish between a vet and newb in PvP. Levels give you bragging rights, levels give you some intimidation in pvp.
Ofcourse those who put in more time should garner more reward. Wouldn't you feel cheated if you played for hours only to find someone who played 10 minutes was your equal?
Not really, if game requires player skill then someone who has played 10mins will not know how to play as well some vet. GW is good example it takes very short time to get max level or even instant with pvp char (though you wount have many unlocked skills if you start like that), but to be good at game still takes long time. Best Guild vs Guild players didn't become good just because they got lvl 20 char.
Too many mmorpgs currently reward who work most in game instead rewading who play well.
If you get rid of levels, then that means equipment is everything. Better equipment = higher cost = need lots of gold = more grinding = plvl, wait not plvl but gold services.
You're still stuck in an EQ / WoW / DikuMUD rut. Gear can have several different aspects than just how much damage is dealt or deflected. Weapons can cause multiple types of damage. Traditionally these are: impaling, slashing, and impact damage. You can expand this out to elemental damage (fire, water, earth, air, dark, and holy) where you're given a bonus when attacking or defending against the opposite element. Then there's also the amount of physical wear that the weapon or armor has. You can only repair a piece of equipment so many times before it loses a quality level. A poor quality piece of gear will break completely and you no longer have it. Likewise, certain weapons and armor can be given a certain type of enemy (undead, beast, human, orc, etc.) that it gets a bonus attacking or defending. Check out Vagrant Story for an idea of how customizable gear can be. If it's done right, no piece of gear can cover all possible situations. The emphasis shifts to character / gear builds rather than lvl / class. Crafting would have to be a large part of the game. As such, materials would have to be easy to come by and not just random drops from monsters.
Seriously, where does a wolf carry gold coins? More importantly, why would a wolf be carring coins?
Ofcourse those who put in more time should garner more reward. Wouldn't you feel cheated if you played for hours only to find someone who played 10 minutes was your equal?
Time invested in relation to benefits gained, shouldn't be primarily focused around 'experience' or 'levels' though, something I think many MMOs are starting to forget as more and more seem to boil down to this simple 3 step progressive system
------
1.Start the game and learn the basics
2.Once familar with the game grind levels, don't worry about anything else such as equipment as we don't provide a extensive amount for you types.
3.Upon Achieving maximum level, open your character sheet and relise your using really bad equipment, but don't worry once you reach max level you get access to all the content that 95% of the development time goes into... new equipment, new equipment and more equipment.
-------
Whilst I'm not saying don't invest a large portion of development time into content solely for those who have gotten to the end level stage (be it through extensive playing, or simply rushing through to be one of the few rare thousands of 'elites'), I do feel that those players who do like to savour a game for being what it is in ALL of it's character progressive stages are actually being punished and excluded from 95% of game development in almost every single MMO out there these days, simply because their taking the time to admire all of the developers work.
So in summary, is Power leveling a bad thing?
Well in itself, of course not it is just away some people play games, it's not for the content but simply to be able to say "I've done all that there is to do" which is fine, it's their time and their money so they can use it as they see fit.
The real problem with power leveling is the fact that because it is such a widely popular play style, MMO developers no longer cater for anybody else, leading to dull lack of content whilst your progressing through the game, and all the interesting content and rewards after you've endured weeks if not months of sheer repeatitive boredom.
Hopefully some of the companys out there that have worked on several MMO projects are starting to relise this, and we'll see a change where interesting content and development time is spread equally, so as to not punish one extreme or the other.
You don't think there's anything amiss? I'm sat here wearing a red and white gingham dress, and army boots, you think that's un-amiss?
Geez, when I asked the question I wasn't even aware that there are players who actually hire other people to play their characters for them just so they can level them up faster. That is really lame. What's the point of even buying a game if you're going to have someone else play it for you? That just shows you are not really interested in playing for fun, but are trying to make the most powerful character as fast as possible. For what reason? Bragging rights?
Comments
So playing to level isn't that fun IMO, it's fun at the top levels when you can equip any piece of armor that drops (for your class) or when you can fly Caldari,Gallente,Minmatar, AND Amarr BS. This is the point at which you can experiment, like I hear running missions in a Raven is the way to go.... but I tried this apocolypse and it's way better IMO, and cheaper (before missile nerf cause you needed torps for firgs and cruisers). EVe's a bad example though since there isn't a cap.
all leveling is with a level cap in place is a long drawn out tutorial. It's like it might as well say "you have done well, now your next thing to learn is how to use a mount" or "great that's awesome you have done combat so far with a 2 hander or 1h/shield, now lets try dual wielding" or "you have mastered using the void to tank, lets try drain tanking now with a succubus now"
All those abilities you get a predetermined level is just like steps in a tutorial. Try this, ok now this, next try this, etc. In WoW it's like ok you're lvl 60 now, the tutorial is over you've learned all the abilities you can learn time to start playing. That is what wow dumb btw, going through a long fun tutorial just to do stupid raids.
So therefore teh game starts at end game. Leveling with a level cap in place is simply a tutorial, grats to the people that complete the tutorial fast. Really in WoW SM and up should be end game, cause you learn all you need to know once you get to SM (if you do dungeons and stuff like WC and SFK, if you solo and you don't know by then, it's not any different then soloing to 60 and not knowing either).
I mean really, there are 2 business models here:
1) make people take 3-6 months worth of subscription money to level then insert huge timesinks to try and keep them interested for as long as possible like Wow
2) keep people wanting to play forever and ever amen like EVE
Really the only difference is that one game has a level cap which means at some point it turns into item based instead of level based, the one game just becomes item based much earlier than the other. Eve has skills, but the game is more based on money tbh, if you get gifted 100 million when you're born the skill part might suck, but really you make money about as fast as you can level up your skills to use whatever you can buy so you can say it's item based from day 7 or so (realtime, cause that's how skills work) just like WoW is item based from day 8-15 (play time).
so powerlevelers are just going through the tutorial as fast as they can, and if the game is any good after that is what really matters.
I've even confused myself, but basically what i'm saying is all games are item based, but some take a while to get to that point, so I don't have anything against people that race to get the item based portion of the game, cause the leveling part is just a long tutorial.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
IE Lineage 2, lvl 1-10 you had quest. then it was grind grind grind, besides the usual job change quest, then you had raids. raids/seiges only real content in the game. apparently its only for the end of the game. which calls for plvl to get to the end game contents.
Problem is devs put all the good contents at high levels. Which is why there is a need for plvling.
If more games were like WoW and you had quest and dungeons throughout every level then you really limit plvling services. Everyone would play atleast 1 character to lvl 60 (well 70 now) before using plvl service, thats considering you even have a guild to do end game contents.
So devs really play a role in plvling services. if they add more content to there games then it would help limit plvlings.
But you can never stop gold services!
There's ONLY one type of PL'er that I loathe.
The powerlevelers who riffle through content then complain/cry about the lack thereof. I just don't understand that at all.
Other than those types to each his/her own.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Ofcourse those who put in more time should garner more reward. Wouldn't you feel cheated if you played for hours only to find someone who played 10 minutes was your equal?
Yes, no one should ever be FORCED to face the reality of badly they suck. How terrible....
Anyway, on to the point I wanted to contribute.
Just what the hell is a level supposed to represent anyway? This is a throwback to the days of medieval miniatures wargames. You wanted a way to represent veteran troops and to display the amount of combat experience a unit had over a campaign of battles. You never got truly godlike units because they usually died before getting beyond two or three battles under their belt. But what does it represent in modern RPGs?
In pen and paper DnD, a character is considered "epic" at around lvl 30. At 60 a character is considered a god. In fact, the average person in any DnD universe never even gets to lvl one! Not only that, but there are several problems with the class / level system. What happens when your character trains in two disciplines? We have multi-class characters for that in PnP games, but not in most MMORPGs. Why can't a priest learn some wizard spells, or a paladin learn how to play a dulcimer? I'm studying to be a copywriter, but I know quite a bit about computer programming. I haven't ever worked as a computer programmer, so am I multi-classing or what?
More realistically, a person has a broad range of skills, abilities, and affinities that define their abilities. Levels are just an easy way to take the responsibility of character development from the players at the expense of freedom. Given, freedom is pretty scary. It's very easy to mess up and find yourself building a character in the opposite direction of what you intended. But the upswing is that no one can have all the bases covered just by playing longer than another player.
Get rid of levels and you get rid of powerlevelers.
If you get rid of levels, then that means equipment is everything.
Better equipment = higher cost = need lots of gold = more grinding = plvl, wait not plvl but gold services.
Gold farmers are born. Now your game economy is screwed. And your back to square one.
Levels are needed for attributes wise which in return would lead to weapon/armor requirements. Levels are needed to distinguish between a vet and newb in PvP. Levels give you bragging rights, levels give you some intimidation in pvp.
Too many mmorpgs currently reward who work most in game instead rewading who play well.
If you get rid of levels, then that means equipment is everything.
Better equipment = higher cost = need lots of gold = more grinding = plvl, wait not plvl but gold services.
You're still stuck in an EQ / WoW / DikuMUD rut. Gear can have several different aspects than just how much damage is dealt or deflected. Weapons can cause multiple types of damage. Traditionally these are: impaling, slashing, and impact damage. You can expand this out to elemental damage (fire, water, earth, air, dark, and holy) where you're given a bonus when attacking or defending against the opposite element. Then there's also the amount of physical wear that the weapon or armor has. You can only repair a piece of equipment so many times before it loses a quality level. A poor quality piece of gear will break completely and you no longer have it. Likewise, certain weapons and armor can be given a certain type of enemy (undead, beast, human, orc, etc.) that it gets a bonus attacking or defending. Check out Vagrant Story for an idea of how customizable gear can be. If it's done right, no piece of gear can cover all possible situations. The emphasis shifts to character / gear builds rather than lvl / class. Crafting would have to be a large part of the game. As such, materials would have to be easy to come by and not just random drops from monsters.
Seriously, where does a wolf carry gold coins? More importantly, why would a wolf be carring coins?
------
1.Start the game and learn the basics
2.Once familar with the game grind levels, don't worry about anything else such as equipment as we don't provide a extensive amount for you types.
3.Upon Achieving maximum level, open your character sheet and relise your using really bad equipment, but don't worry once you reach max level you get access to all the content that 95% of the development time goes into... new equipment, new equipment and more equipment.
-------
Whilst I'm not saying don't invest a large portion of development time into content solely for those who have gotten to the end level stage (be it through extensive playing, or simply rushing through to be one of the few rare thousands of 'elites'), I do feel that those players who do like to savour a game for being what it is in ALL of it's character progressive stages are actually being punished and excluded from 95% of game development in almost every single MMO out there these days, simply because their taking the time to admire all of the developers work.
So in summary, is Power leveling a bad thing?
Well in itself, of course not it is just away some people play games, it's not for the content but simply to be able to say "I've done all that there is to do" which is fine, it's their time and their money so they can use it as they see fit.
The real problem with power leveling is the fact that because it is such a widely popular play style, MMO developers no longer cater for anybody else, leading to dull lack of content whilst your progressing through the game, and all the interesting content and rewards after you've endured weeks if not months of sheer repeatitive boredom.
Hopefully some of the companys out there that have worked on several MMO projects are starting to relise this, and we'll see a change where interesting content and development time is spread equally, so as to not punish one extreme or the other.
You don't think there's anything amiss? I'm sat here wearing a red and white gingham dress, and army boots, you think that's un-amiss?