Let me tell you this. I have been in this game since beta and its not bugs which is doing harm to the game but VANBOYS. I wonder how many left Vanguard in frustration after comign across the Vanoys who would just attack any kind of criticism. They didn't let you post when it was in beta and they still won't let you post even after the final release. And no it's not only limited to MMORPG. Try any fansite and you will see the same atmosphere.
In my opinion Vanguard attracts the most ignorant, rude and losers you can imagine. You want to enjoy the game? ignore 90% of the community. Have fun and don't let haters bring you down.
Yikes. Probably taking on more than I can handle in this thread, but oh well. We'll see if it's just talk, or if it goes both ways.
I'm particularly interested in the comment "They didn't let you post.." "...and they still won't let you post.." Hmm... I don't recall this event. Exactly how did that work? I seem to remember and still see plenty of comments from both sides of the fence. So, exactly when did this "didn't" and "won't" happen?
Heh, yeah I've seen plenty of posts with the "Go back to WoW" brilliant response. But, then are you telling me you haven't seen an equal amount of the "Vanguard SUX" responses as well? If not, you may want to refresh your screen more often because those are there in plenty as well.
Considering that this a forum dedicated for Vanguard, exactly where would you have those that are adamant about Vanguard post? Oh sure, we can agree that they aren't exactly rhodes scholar prospects, but they are at least in the correct forum. Can the same be said of those that come up with such superb comments like "VANGUARD SUX!" or "I HOPE THIS GAME DIES!" ? Really?
Well, I'm trying to play the game, alot of people are trying. We ask alot of questions, we group, we co-operate, we work things out. Once in a while the fanbois will start in on the other players, telling us to shut up, work it out on our own, go back to WOW if the game is too hard, etc. Seems this weekend was the really bad part, but week nites are hassle free. Not sure what the timing has to do with fanboi play, but it appears more are on line on the weekend then on week nites.
When they overpower a class, the other classes complain.
When they nerf a class, then that class complains.
It has been the same for 10 years of the MMO genre. You would think by this point they would have learned to keep the tweakings and tonings down of class abilities to a minimum instead of stealth nerfs that completely change a class's capabilities since nothing but animosity ever results from such actions from either side. I wouldn't be taking it so hard myself if the game was a finished, polished, working, ready for release game, but it isn't. We're paying to play a beta, and I'm just dealing with that, but when I'm paying to play a beta, sending 10-20 /bug reports per session and then my class gets the floor pulled out from under them and my effectiveness reduced to a FRACTION of what it was, I will get irritated, and I will warn potential purchasers of the game to wait until Sigil figures out what its 'vision' is before making the investment in VG.
Now, I know that this will get me flamed, but if you want to look at class changes done right, look no further than Blizzard. For WoW, they announce a couple months in advance that they are going to adjust a particular class in the next patch. Then, about a month before the patch, they release the changes and allow players to play with a "talent calculator." Plus, they have a beta server to test them on. Finally, when they do release the changes, they usually tweak or improve the class, never really nerfing.
All MMOs need to constantly alter their classes, balancing them as the players find inconsistancies. I believe MMO developers should take a page from how Blizzard handles this aspect of the genre.
And thats the reason that they have over 8 million players, and soon To get to 10. Blizzard class changes just creat a circling FOTM class chain. It keeps people playing because when their class gets nerfed (or surpassed in quality by another) they have to re-roll and re-gear a new toon.
Blizzard changes classes so much because they have no idea how to balance things. They also kicked themselves in the nuts as far as balancing goes because the HUGE leaps in equipment quality and weapon DPS greatly effects the relative quality of the classes. Same thing happened in DAoC after they introduced ToA.
VGs class balance isn't perfect but in groups it seems to be very good. Soloing is where the classes are most varied in difficulty. The soloing of some classes is HUGE compared to others. If you can heal yourself generally you can solo better. In groups this is not a big deal though so it balances out a lot.
What good does bitching on these forums do? Nothing. You just spam up this forum with yet another generic complaint. Just post on another thread. Don't start a new one. There are plenty! Thanks.
Hopefully Sigil actually visits the forums of the fan sites. I hope they are very aware of the number of complaint posts on these sites. By not having their own forums, they're not getting direct customer feedback. That leads to them doing stupid things that the players don't like or want.
The thread titles in the "bitching" posts are usually pretty self explanatory. If you don't want to read them, don't click them. It's really not complicated.
But the complainers are not even going to affiliated sites to complain. . .perhaps because they are too scared?
Or perhaps you don't know jack? Some of them delete posts like its easy or ignore them totally. Why do you think they don't have real centralized forums?
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
When they overpower a class, the other classes complain.
When they nerf a class, then that class complains.
It has been the same for 10 years of the MMO genre.
You would think by this point they would have learned to keep the tweakings and tonings down of class abilities to a minimum instead of stealth nerfs that completely change a class's capabilities since nothing but animosity ever results from such actions from either side. I wouldn't be taking it so hard myself if the game was a finished, polished, working, ready for release game, but it isn't. We're paying to play a beta, and I'm just dealing with that, but when I'm paying to play a beta, sending 10-20 /bug reports per session and then my class gets the floor pulled out from under them and my effectiveness reduced to a FRACTION of what it was, I will get irritated, and I will warn potential purchasers of the game to wait until Sigil figures out what its 'vision' is before making the investment in VG.
I agree... especially with the bold part... I wont even get started on vanguards FAQs of the past...
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
What good does bitching on these forums do? Nothing. You just spam up this forum with yet another generic complaint. Just post on another thread. Don't start a new one. There are plenty! Thanks.
Hopefully Sigil actually visits the forums of the fan sites. I hope they are very aware of the number of complaint posts on these sites. By not having their own forums, they're not getting direct customer feedback. That leads to them doing stupid things that the players don't like or want.
The thread titles in the "bitching" posts are usually pretty self explanatory. If you don't want to read them, don't click them. It's really not complicated.
But the complainers are not even going to affiliated sites to complain. . .perhaps because they are too scared?
Maybe it is because people don't want to have to add 20 crappy fansites to their regular internet usage just get a few crumbs of information from the overly-neglectful dev team. The lack of forums is a cop-out on Sigil's part. It is a very effective way for them to ignore their customers and continue to look at their half-finished bug-fest through rose-colored glasses.
This game might have been able to someday be as good as you fanboys claim it is... if they hadn't launch it at least 6 months away from being ready. Unlike a lot of people, I don't blame SOE for that. They gave the guys a whole extra year of development time... having been in beta during that time, I know who's fault it that the game isn't done. I have never seen progress so slow, patches so few and far between during what should have been crunch time. It wasn't until the last few weeks, after the premature launch was announced that they got back to work. Anyone who was in beta knows that in the last couple of months leading up to launch they seemed to be almost on vacation. It's like they lost a week of work for thanksgiving, two weeks for Xmas.
At this point, they will be lucky if the game can survive its atrocious state at launch. By the time it is finally patched in to shape, the early adapters will be bored with it and we will all have a few more choices... I really doubt that AOC, WAR, Gods and heroes or LOTRO make it out the door in the same shit-shape as Vanguard did.
Off topic.. My least favorite thing about these forums are all the morons that tell people not to post here just because they don't agree with what those people have to say. The good news is, telling someone that they shouldn't post their opinions, rather than discussing them just points out how little capacity for intelligent conversation the poster has. it's a mixed bag... sure someone is telling you to shut up, but they are pointing out their own lack of intelligence in the process.
EQ1 was a fluke. Right game at the right time. I don't think they have what it takes beyond world/lore creation to do another MMORPG.
They make interesting worlds, just can't figure out how to keep a customer informed, and destined to repeat the same mistakes EQ1 had, and improvise new ones!
People have been saying that about Turbine and AC1 TBH, I really can't think of a company that been able to make hit after hit with MMOs. SOE sure has not. NCSoft more of a publisher with Linage as success in asia. CoX is a small success, their other games have been flops. Funcom had small success with AO and hoping with AoC. Mythic had some success with DAoC and could have lots with WAR. Hmmm, MMOs are starting to look to be a crap shoot.
As someone who is shopping for a new MMO, I find these threads the most informative. Sure, I read plenty of "The game sucks" threads, and plenty of "Vanguard is teh uber!" threads, but I usually ignore them. But here, we see so much about the game. 1. There are serious problems with the game. Obviously, we all know that the game was released too soon. Potential players like me need to know that. Many of us don't like to pay money to do beta testing. So, if the OP is lying about a problem, tell us. If it's a legitimate issue with the game, don't tell them not to post, as you are only reaffirming your vanboi status. 2. The community is confused about where to go for information and feedback, and is dispersed across affiliates and fansites. Not having an official forum (Station.com does NOT count) is an incredible mistake on Sigil's part. 3. The community is full of jackasses. Seriously, any time you use STFU, you've automatically become a jackass. I see in this thread, that a lot of Vanguard players in in such denial about the current state of the game, they don't want to hear anything negative about it. It's alright to have 6 threads about "Vanguard is awesome, great game!" on the front page, but all negative posts must be relegated to a single thread? That's what you implied, when you said that the OP should have posted in an existing thread. This is a public forum, don't tell people how to use them. 4. Sigil nerfs. There's something I hate to see. During Beta, it's alright for classes to be both nerfed and improved. But after release, nerfing is one of the biggest mistakes a game company can make. It's better to strengthen the weakest classes, not weaken the strongest ones. I thank all of you, even the vanbois. You've helped me in deciding that this is not the game for me. I was hoping to join after a couple months, after the bugs were exterminated. But, seeing that Sigil makes inexcusable mistakes, and seeing that the Vanguard community is so immature, I'll take my business elsewhere. I do hope the Vanguard fanbois realize that they only are hurting the game they love. Everytime they snarl at a newb, tell someone to "STFU" or "Go back to WoW," all they are doing is driving away potential customers. Nobody wants to play with assholes.
1) There are problems with the game. THEY ARE NOT MAJOR. The person who started this thread is having a client issue that is more then likely caused by his own machine. Sigil has said several times that they are working on Client Stability issues. Every patch it gets better.
2) Most of the community just doesn't bother to read. It is not confusing to know that if you go to silkyvenom.com or thedruidsgrove.com that you can find info on those sites. there is even a link right on vanguardsoh.com to give you all the links of affiliated and non-affiliated websites. There is even a discussion forum on GUComics.com put up specifically for Vanguard at Brad's request.
3) Every MMO community has their jackasses. If this is a problem that makes a game unplayable for you, you might want to stick to single player games.
4) As far as nerfs go, once again every game does this. In beta I could solo two even con 3 dot mobs and have no downtime whatsoever. No other class can do this, so apparently when they increased the power of three dot mobs, decreased my pet heal and increased resists there weren't any complaints.
Going to any forum is NOT a good way to get 'good' info. ALMOST every person who comes to a forum to talk about a game is there to complain. This thread started off w/ a complaint about client stability with almost no specifics as to what chunks cause this, what he was doing before he chunked or what his computer specs are (this is info the devs need in order to work on the problem). His first thought was to come here to complain and talk about how the game is going down in flames. QQ more.
Comments
I'm particularly interested in the comment "They didn't let you post.." "...and they still won't let you post.." Hmm... I don't recall this event. Exactly how did that work? I seem to remember and still see plenty of comments from both sides of the fence. So, exactly when did this "didn't" and "won't" happen?
Heh, yeah I've seen plenty of posts with the "Go back to WoW" brilliant response. But, then are you telling me you haven't seen an equal amount of the "Vanguard SUX" responses as well? If not, you may want to refresh your screen more often because those are there in plenty as well.
Considering that this a forum dedicated for Vanguard, exactly where would you have those that are adamant about Vanguard post? Oh sure, we can agree that they aren't exactly rhodes scholar prospects, but they are at least in the correct forum. Can the same be said of those that come up with such superb comments like "VANGUARD SUX!" or "I HOPE THIS GAME DIES!" ? Really?
Well, I'm trying to play the game, alot of people are trying. We ask alot of questions, we group, we co-operate, we work things out. Once in a while the fanbois will start in on the other players, telling us to shut up, work it out on our own, go back to WOW if the game is too hard, etc. Seems this weekend was the really bad part, but week nites are hassle free. Not sure what the timing has to do with fanboi play, but it appears more are on line on the weekend then on week nites.
There is something wrong however with not listing the changes in patch notes and informing people of what actually changed.
Now, I know that this will get me flamed, but if you want to look at class changes done right, look no further than Blizzard. For WoW, they announce a couple months in advance that they are going to adjust a particular class in the next patch. Then, about a month before the patch, they release the changes and allow players to play with a "talent calculator." Plus, they have a beta server to test them on. Finally, when they do release the changes, they usually tweak or improve the class, never really nerfing.
All MMOs need to constantly alter their classes, balancing them as the players find inconsistancies. I believe MMO developers should take a page from how Blizzard handles this aspect of the genre.
And thats the reason that they have over 8 million players, and soon To get to 10Blizzard changes classes so much because they have no idea how to balance things. They also kicked themselves in the nuts as far as balancing goes because the HUGE leaps in equipment quality and weapon DPS greatly effects the relative quality of the classes. Same thing happened in DAoC after they introduced ToA.
VGs class balance isn't perfect but in groups it seems to be very good. Soloing is where the classes are most varied in difficulty. The soloing of some classes is HUGE compared to others. If you can heal yourself generally you can solo better. In groups this is not a big deal though so it balances out a lot.
Hopefully Sigil actually visits the forums of the fan sites. I hope they are very aware of the number of complaint posts on these sites. By not having their own forums, they're not getting direct customer feedback. That leads to them doing stupid things that the players don't like or want.
The thread titles in the "bitching" posts are usually pretty self explanatory. If you don't want to read them, don't click them. It's really not complicated.
But the complainers are not even going to affiliated sites to complain. . .perhaps because they are too scared?
Or perhaps you don't know jack? Some of them delete posts like its easy or ignore them totally. Why do you think they don't have real centralized forums?
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
I agree... especially with the bold part... I wont even get started on vanguards FAQs of the past...
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Hopefully Sigil actually visits the forums of the fan sites. I hope they are very aware of the number of complaint posts on these sites. By not having their own forums, they're not getting direct customer feedback. That leads to them doing stupid things that the players don't like or want.
The thread titles in the "bitching" posts are usually pretty self explanatory. If you don't want to read them, don't click them. It's really not complicated.
But the complainers are not even going to affiliated sites to complain. . .perhaps because they are too scared?
Maybe it is because people don't want to have to add 20 crappy fansites to their regular internet usage just get a few crumbs of information from the overly-neglectful dev team. The lack of forums is a cop-out on Sigil's part. It is a very effective way for them to ignore their customers and continue to look at their half-finished bug-fest through rose-colored glasses.
This game might have been able to someday be as good as you fanboys claim it is... if they hadn't launch it at least 6 months away from being ready. Unlike a lot of people, I don't blame SOE for that. They gave the guys a whole extra year of development time... having been in beta during that time, I know who's fault it that the game isn't done. I have never seen progress so slow, patches so few and far between during what should have been crunch time. It wasn't until the last few weeks, after the premature launch was announced that they got back to work. Anyone who was in beta knows that in the last couple of months leading up to launch they seemed to be almost on vacation. It's like they lost a week of work for thanksgiving, two weeks for Xmas.
At this point, they will be lucky if the game can survive its atrocious state at launch. By the time it is finally patched in to shape, the early adapters will be bored with it and we will all have a few more choices... I really doubt that AOC, WAR, Gods and heroes or LOTRO make it out the door in the same shit-shape as Vanguard did.
Off topic.. My least favorite thing about these forums are all the morons that tell people not to post here just because they don't agree with what those people have to say. The good news is, telling someone that they shouldn't post their opinions, rather than discussing them just points out how little capacity for intelligent conversation the poster has. it's a mixed bag... sure someone is telling you to shut up, but they are pointing out their own lack of intelligence in the process.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
I think this is where a lot of people are right now. I will not be throwing down $50 just to try it.
And thank you Areel. Excellent post.
1) There are problems with the game. THEY ARE NOT MAJOR. The person who started this thread is having a client issue that is more then likely caused by his own machine. Sigil has said several times that they are working on Client Stability issues. Every patch it gets better.
2) Most of the community just doesn't bother to read. It is not confusing to know that if you go to silkyvenom.com or thedruidsgrove.com that you can find info on those sites. there is even a link right on vanguardsoh.com to give you all the links of affiliated and non-affiliated websites. There is even a discussion forum on GUComics.com put up specifically for Vanguard at Brad's request.
3) Every MMO community has their jackasses. If this is a problem that makes a game unplayable for you, you might want to stick to single player games.
4) As far as nerfs go, once again every game does this. In beta I could solo two even con 3 dot mobs and have no downtime whatsoever. No other class can do this, so apparently when they increased the power of three dot mobs, decreased my pet heal and increased resists there weren't any complaints.
Going to any forum is NOT a good way to get 'good' info. ALMOST every person who comes to a forum to talk about a game is there to complain. This thread started off w/ a complaint about client stability with almost no specifics as to what chunks cause this, what he was doing before he chunked or what his computer specs are (this is info the devs need in order to work on the problem). His first thought was to come here to complain and talk about how the game is going down in flames. QQ more.