I can see why the combat wouldnt attract your everyday wow player, because it gets very complicated later on.. you have to make split second decisions (you only have 10 seconds to activate a readction) which means you MUST be very aware of whats going on around you.. what classes are doing what, who has aggro and who is the most important person to 'rescue'..
Split desicsion, 10 seconds?
And you compare this to Wow?
Now I have not played wow for well over a year but from what I remember about at least PvP as well as PvE if your decision took more then 1 second you would be feeding the worms, in 10 seconds you would be dead, the guy who killed you would have /dance /spit and be long gone.
This was a poor comparison, or at least poorly executed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First impressions are not very important and here is why: Every MMO feels generic and boring for the first few levels if you have played an MMO before. The combat MUST start off basic and run-of-the-mill or else new players are going to feel lost and confused. There must be a progression in there from simple to complex and it cant be at level 2. Since most MMOs fall down to the same BASIC combat principles,n othing is ever exciting and engaging until you are a little bit into the game.
While a single player game may take you twenty hours to finish at the most (turn absed RPGs aside), you may be playing an MMO for dozens, maybe hundreds of days of played time. By comparison, if it takes you a half an hour to really get a feel for how those games work, it should take you many hours to really get a feel for how an MMO works or else it is WAY too shallow to bother continuing.
I don't think the issue is the complexity of the combat at low levels, but the lack of "flash" and visual appeal. You can have that right from the get go, even if you only have a handfull of starter combat moves/spells. If you're going to spend a ton of hours in the beginning doing mundane stuff like killing X number of rats, might as well make it look good.
I agree! Now, some games go crazy with the big old special effects ALL THE TIME for simple spells (thinking of some of the ps2 rpgs) but you can keep it interesting to the eye with some nice animations even if you only have "kick" and "punch" moves to start.
In the short time I've been playing Vanguard, I have to say I find their combat system far better from an interaction level than WoWs. If you're just soloing, then yes it may seem a bit bland. If you group with several friends, the chaining between characters in Vanguard allows for much deeper interaction. The different effects stacked onto, and consumed by special moves makes classes not wholly interdependent, but more effective with certain combinations. Dreadknights and monks do a nice job of feeding off one another for example ...
I will certainly concede WoW's combat animations were more fluid. I think that's cut and dry. But the gameplay of the combat ... Vanguard is FAR deeper, and I prefer that ... others may not.
@OP I agree. VSoH combat is not as much action oriented as WoW. Its slower and not as fluid unfortunately.
Erm, I'm sorry but I played WoW for two years and while Vanguard combat is slower (yipiee) it's much more visually presentable than WoW combat. Take a warrior for example - in Wow you have, what, three attack animations? Two variations of autoattack and one for nearly every special attack you can pull. Four if you consider that ridiculous spinning whirlwind thing an animation. Vanguard has at least double that. And don't start me on sound effects, but that's not the topic here.
Anyway, my personal opinion on what a great, believable and system-friendly combat system should look like comes from playing Knights of the Old Republic. 1 or 2 they both have this great system with plenty of blocks, parries, dodges, near misses, weapon locking and so on - untill someone runs out of hitpoints and falls over.
There you have it. A simple system simulating fluid close combat with all the bells and whistles of a movie fight without unnecessary strain on the computer, since it's all just makeup for todays standard whack-it-over-the-head-untill-dead combat system. And it would be damn fun to watch.
That said, Vanguard combat is visually presentable, and as far as tactics go, it's a notch or two above anything I've so far played. I got bored plenty of times in WoW with two-button spamming. In Vanguard, at least there is no danger of falling asleep during a fight. So, while animations can easily be upgraded, I am glad they managed to create a combat system which allows for a goodly number of possible combinations and strategies in any fight, especially when fighting in a group.
Just started Vanguard yesterday, but right off, I want to comment on something. The basic combat, it just feels lacking to me, and I'm not sure exactly why. So I've been thinking about it. It seems too much like first-gen MMOs where two characters just stand next to eachother jerking around untill one falls over. It doesn't feel connected. It lacks visceral punch. I'm not going to get into the gameplay mechanics of it, or anything (but reactionaries might help, too:p). I just want to post about the art and sound, for now. Maybe I'm being superficial, but I think well animated graphics are important in RPGs especially, where we're not doing that much as a player. It's what our characters do that entertains us. Like a variety of graphics for getting hit, not just swinging. Sounds, animations and even particle effects, for bracing a block or parry, and for taking a light hit or a heavy hit, that looks like it has serious impact, you know? It's not just about watching numbers and health bars, but all the little touches like that can make MMORPG combat addictive, that make me want to run up and wack the next mole. I'm not feeling that in Vanguard.
When you get past level 10, its does get more complicated. 1-10 is old school. 10 + you get an extra bar or, slot or two over your old skills, things like counters and complementary skills start popping up.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by Kryogenic Are you guys aware that all the animations aren't in the game yet. Before beta was out I also heard talk of improving alot of animations. Right now they are just placeholders.
I hope you're right. Anyone have a link to a dev saying as much? I'm not used to that sort of thing being added to an MMO post-release. Even DAOC was using the same animations that it shipped with, after how many expansions? They kept upgrading the spell graphics, they added housing, player merchants, etc, but the basic elements like combat animations seemed set in stone. Maybe because it's a hell of a lot of content to work through, when you take everything into account, like different weapons, races, styles, and even mobs.
People talk about Vanguard like it'll undergo all these major changes over the next few months, but having played so many MMOs, I'm really skeptical of that. From the most solid releases, to the must unpolished, aside from AC, they all shipped with the art and media content they seemed to be stuck with for years. Cleaned up, quashed bugs, polished, but not much by way of new animations, or anything like that.
It'd be great if Vanguard's an exception, but I have to say, I'll believe it when I see it.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Yes, we definately need more Polish in the combat animations. The Polish Army was very under rated. People should realize that in WW 2 they held out longer than France, without British aid, and with Stalin coming in the back door. What this game really needs is some Polish lancers in Czapka's. Too much of the game revolves around Western Europe, the Middle east, and China. More Polish in the game would be a big improvement, and increase Eastern European interest in MMORPGs.
I havent really been impressed by the Vanguard character models, its probably the weakest part of this game, for me at least. So the animations are bad too maybe, although they seem just like all the other mmorpgs to me Theres a couple different swing animations... When you get hit theres a couple generic being-pushed-back-a-bit animations... Theres some fancy sparks or lines added around your sword when you use special attacks... Or fancy clouds of magic when you cast a spell.
Comments
Split desicsion, 10 seconds?
And you compare this to Wow?
Now I have not played wow for well over a year but from what I remember about at least PvP as well as PvE if your decision took more then 1 second you would be feeding the worms, in 10 seconds you would be dead, the guy who killed you would have /dance /spit and be long gone.
This was a poor comparison, or at least poorly executed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think the issue is the complexity of the combat at low levels, but the lack of "flash" and visual appeal. You can have that right from the get go, even if you only have a handfull of starter combat moves/spells. If you're going to spend a ton of hours in the beginning doing mundane stuff like killing X number of rats, might as well make it look good.
I agree! Now, some games go crazy with the big old special effects ALL THE TIME for simple spells (thinking of some of the ps2 rpgs) but you can keep it interesting to the eye with some nice animations even if you only have "kick" and "punch" moves to start.
I will certainly concede WoW's combat animations were more fluid. I think that's cut and dry. But the gameplay of the combat ... Vanguard is FAR deeper, and I prefer that ... others may not.
The combat animations are poor, even at higher levels.
Combat is anything but difficult and interactive, it's a slow paced game of "Pop-A-Mole" that we should all be able to play in our sleep.
Erm, I'm sorry but I played WoW for two years and while Vanguard combat is slower (yipiee) it's much more visually presentable than WoW combat. Take a warrior for example - in Wow you have, what, three attack animations? Two variations of autoattack and one for nearly every special attack you can pull. Four if you consider that ridiculous spinning whirlwind thing an animation.
Vanguard has at least double that. And don't start me on sound effects, but that's not the topic here.
Anyway, my personal opinion on what a great, believable and system-friendly combat system should look like comes from playing Knights of the Old Republic. 1 or 2 they both have this great system with plenty of blocks, parries, dodges, near misses, weapon locking and so on - untill someone runs out of hitpoints and falls over.
There you have it. A simple system simulating fluid close combat with all the bells and whistles of a movie fight without unnecessary strain on the computer, since it's all just makeup for todays standard whack-it-over-the-head-untill-dead combat system.
And it would be damn fun to watch.
That said, Vanguard combat is visually presentable, and as far as tactics go, it's a notch or two above anything I've so far played. I got bored plenty of times in WoW with two-button spamming. In Vanguard, at least there is no danger of falling asleep during a fight.
So, while animations can easily be upgraded, I am glad they managed to create a combat system which allows for a goodly number of possible combinations and strategies in any fight, especially when fighting in a group.
When you get past level 10, its does get more complicated. 1-10 is old school. 10 + you get an extra bar or, slot or two over your old skills, things like counters and complementary skills start popping up.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I hope you're right. Anyone have a link to a dev saying as much? I'm not used to that sort of thing being added to an MMO post-release. Even DAOC was using the same animations that it shipped with, after how many expansions? They kept upgrading the spell graphics, they added housing, player merchants, etc, but the basic elements like combat animations seemed set in stone. Maybe because it's a hell of a lot of content to work through, when you take everything into account, like different weapons, races, styles, and even mobs.
People talk about Vanguard like it'll undergo all these major changes over the next few months, but having played so many MMOs, I'm really skeptical of that. From the most solid releases, to the must unpolished, aside from AC, they all shipped with the art and media content they seemed to be stuck with for years. Cleaned up, quashed bugs, polished, but not much by way of new animations, or anything like that.
It'd be great if Vanguard's an exception, but I have to say, I'll believe it when I see it.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Yes, we definately need more Polish in the combat animations. The Polish Army was very under rated. People should realize that in WW 2 they held out longer than France, without British aid, and with Stalin coming in the back door. What this game really needs is some Polish lancers in Czapka's. Too much of the game revolves around Western Europe, the Middle east, and China. More Polish in the game would be a big improvement, and increase Eastern European interest in MMORPGs.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.