The difference is that the people who wrote the bible actually saw it.......... We are not talking about an invisible teapot here. The God that Moses wrote about was real and visible. This God led his people through the desert 40 years visibly as a pillar of fire at night and a cloud during the heat of the day. This same God sent down fire from heaven that consumed the sacrifice on the altar Elijah built. 30 Then Elijah called to the people, “Come over here!” They all crowded around him as he repaired the altar of the Lord that had been torn down. 31 He took twelve stones, one to represent each of the tribes of Israel,[c]32 and he used the stones to rebuild the altar in the name of the Lord. Then he dug a trench around the altar large enough to hold about three gallons.[d]33 He piled wood on the altar, cut the bull into pieces, and laid the pieces on the wood. Then he said, “Fill four large jars with water, and pour the water over the offering and the wood.” 34 After they had done this, he said, “Do the same thing again!” And when they were finished, he said, “Now do it a third time!” So they did as he said, 35 and the water ran around the altar and even filled the trench. 36 At the usual time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, “O Lord, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,[e] prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. 37 O Lord, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O Lord, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself.” 38 Immediately the fire of the Lord flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the trench! 39 And when all the people saw it, they fell face down on the ground and cried out, “The Lord—he is God! Yes, the Lord is God!” 40 Then Elijah commanded, “Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don’t let a single one escape!” So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. God is a real and active entity. This concept that there is no proof of Gods existence is rubbish. We take any other history book written by people who were not even alive during the time period they have written about and call it fact yet we disregard the testimony and writings of eye witnesses to actual events as heresay. Read the works of Josephus who was a historian and see for yourself the proof that God is real.
One mans revelation is simply that. One mans revelation.
I'll ask you like I asked the other poster. How come you don't use that same logic and apply it to other religions? That would prove them to be just as factual as Christianity. I'm sure people can attest to seeing zombies in Haiti as well. Does that make voodoo a valid religion?
And stating historical events that may have been true doesn't lend credibility to an entire document. Have you read a newspaper lately? It has true stories in it coupled with editorial. Or how about the book the DaVinci Code? It's got some fact sprinkled in with fiction as well. Are we to believe all that is written in it?
Use logic to pursue your truth and you will fare better. I'm not saying that there is no God, but if you're going to pursue God then use your mind that God gave you to figure out what's going on. Don't let other men steer you into their revelation. Seek your own. Just so you know there has not been 1 historical/geological find that has ever been in contrast with what is in the bible. In fact, every year we keep finding evidence to support what has been recorded in the bible for thousands of years. People used to laugh at Sodom and Gomorrah....that is until they uncovered it. The naysayers of a worldwide flood have recently had to change their tune when evidence now points to this. I could go on and on about this but It won't matter how much we find or prove.
Some people's hearts will always be hardened towards God and will always persucute the Faith. He did give us free will. You either choose for him or against him. This is where this road leads with most Christians when you get in a debate with them. They start throwing out that same crap like your "hardened heart" mumbo jumbo.
I'm not persecuting your faith. I believe Jesus walked the Earth. I just don't think it's possible for a man to perform magic without slide of hand. And I believe that the people who pumped up his stories did him injustice. His message alone was enough to inspire the world to change. He was definitely a great person and teacher. Why take away from that by trying to add on to what already has meaning?
And so what if Sodom and Gomorrah existed? Okay, it existed. Does that make the WHOLE Bible and it's tales true? A man being swallowed by a whale is true because we found Sodom and Gomorrah!!! Does that sound like good logic to you? And lot's of towns have been destroyed by natural catastrophes. Pompeii for instance. What about the recent Indonesian tsunami? Any tale can be twisted to be an act of God. I mean look at all the people claiming New Orleans was hit by Katrina because of all the homosexuals there. Yet somehow, God missed and killed all the black people!!!!!!!!! There is no sense in talking further with you. Since you attack anything religious or even slightly conservative in nature, it wouldn't matter what anyone proved to you. So, it looks like the "mumbo, jumbo" holds true with you.
People tend to have this misconception .......... The bible is not one book but many. One cannot simply dismiss it as the deranged writings of a deluded individual (see the book of mormon) It was written over a long span by several authors throughout many generations. It is not a fictional document it is a historical account of a particular people. When archaeologists go to dig in those areas they use the bible as their main source off information because it is incredibly accurate. When babylonian tablets have been unearthed with historical accounts written on them they depict the Jews exactly the way the bible does. Anyone who has studied the Jewish culture can attest to the fact that they are meticulous historians and have excellently preserved ther documented history as a people. there is absolutely no reason to douth the authenticity of the writings in the bible because they are affirmed by outside sources as well.
The Jews may have left slavery in Egypt, and there may have been a great flood. However, that does not mean that God led Moses by a pillar of fire, or that Noah brought all the animals onto his boat. There is SOME historical fact in the Bible, but it is mixed in with fantasy stories and fables. The point the OP raised is that many people believe that these fantasy stories and fables are also fact.
The difference is that the people who wrote the bible actually saw it.......... We are not talking about an invisible teapot here. The God that Moses wrote about was real and visible. This God led his people through the desert 40 years visibly as a pillar of fire at night and a cloud during the heat of the day. This same God sent down fire from heaven that consumed the sacrifice on the altar Elijah built. Hold on, it was CLAIMED that the people actually saw it. it has never been proven that it was real. Back in the days, there was little science, and little education. a superior being was the only explenation, just like zeus, osiris and hercules. People also claimed that they saw things and wrote it down, yet nobody believes them anymore.
30 Then Elijah called to the people, “Come over here!” They all crowded around him as he repaired the altar of the Lord that had been torn down. 31 He took twelve stones, one to represent each of the tribes of Israel,[c]32 and he used the stones to rebuild the altar in the name of the Lord. Then he dug a trench around the altar large enough to hold about three gallons.[d]33 He piled wood on the altar, cut the bull into pieces, and laid the pieces on the wood. Then he said, “Fill four large jars with water, and pour the water over the offering and the wood.” 34 After they had done this, he said, “Do the same thing again!” And when they were finished, he said, “Now do it a third time!” So they did as he said, 35 and the water ran around the altar and even filled the trench. 36 At the usual time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, “O Lord, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,[e] prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. 37 O Lord, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O Lord, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself.” 38 Immediately the fire of the Lord flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the trench! 39 And when all the people saw it, they fell face down on the ground and cried out, “The Lord—he is God! Yes, the Lord is God!” 40 Then Elijah commanded, “Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don’t let a single one escape!” So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. God is a real and active entity. This concept that there is no proof of Gods existence is rubbish. We take any other history book written by people who were not even alive during the time period they have written about and call it fact yet we disregard the testimony and writings of eye witnesses to actual events as heresay. Read the works of Josephus who was a historian and see for yourself the proof that God is real. The diffrence here is that many times we have EVIDENCE that things like that actually happened, undeniable EVIDENCE. There is no proof that all the things claimed in the bible actually took place , not to mention that the things claimed in the bible go against reason. People don´t reach ages of 600, sea´s don´t split at command, staves don´t turn into snakes, and children aren'tt born from virgins, and burning bushes don't talk. Now also go read up the historians that prove that there is no proof for the existance of god.
Know that there is just as much proof of the existance of Zeus, hell theres just as much evidence for the existence of Gandalf, Frodo, and Sauron that there is of your god, or anyone else's.
Sorry man. You are incorrect in this statement. The bible is comprised of eyewitness testimony at the time by multiple people with thousands of accurate texts/manuscripts. There are over 5000 manuscripts that tell this story. The only thing that comes close is the fictional work of Homer (Iliad) with 600 manuscripts with dates far later--600 years--than at the time of its composition.
Actually, the Iliad was written around 200 years after the suposed battle of troy happened.
True, but the only surviving manuscripts are hundreds of years later--600 to be exact.
I agree. We have ~ 5,500 Greek manuscripts, 18,000 copies of the translated versions. Fairy tale? Hardly. Do your homework. If you were to find a "secular" book with as many credible sources it would be easily praised in the secular world. I won't bore the OP with historical accuracy of the bible, and that it was written by several inspired men in several different locations. Yet, the continuity of the bible speaks for itself. Several secular sources account and back up many occurrences in the bible. Historical evidences are continually found. While it is great to see uncovered evidences, the foundation for Christianity will always be faith. God apparently designed it that way. It's outstanding how reliable the bible is and how remarkable it is put together if you were to do your own research- other than coming up with a blanket statement about fairy tales with no foundation.
I'll tell you what they were inspired by. They were inspired by stories that came from before the writing of the Bible. They borrowed and added on to stories that were already there and then claimed them as their own. So of course there were different men writing somewhat similar stories in different places because those stories had already been spread prior to the writing the Bible. Biblical texts are just additions to older stories much like the "Left Behind" series has been implanted into the heads of Christians during this time period. People just took old stories and modified them. Stories from the Greeks are in there as well as stories from other more ancient tribes like the Zoroastrians and even some druidic and pagan beliefs.
And you can't point to some historically correct event and then say the whole thing is true. Even if they found something they could call Noah's Ark, that doesn't lend itself to proof of the entire Biblical texts being fact. You still have to consider the human nature of creating a "fish tale". Man has a tendency to trump up a story as time goes on. It's the reason we have tales like the Chupacabra and Jersey Devil to fill our childrens heads.
But if you insist on saying that your Bible is fact because of lofty considerations, then how can you deny the application of that same logic onto other religious texts from other beliefs? Your logic applied to other texts would imply that they are factual as well. Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, heck even Voodoo. I'm sure you could drum up a lot of eye witness accounts of zombies if you traveled to Haiti for Spring Break.
Here ya go. Start off with the link below for some proof. Maybe it will inspire you to read more about where Biblical stories have their beginnings. And don't start questioning others credibility to make an argument. Simply challenge their points. Making personal attacks does nothing for your own credibility but show your insecurity.
Oh, and btw. Jews don't believe Christ was the Messiah. So, that's why I was stating Judaism in my post. They discredit your religion from it's foundation. They call your New Testament accounts false.
For starters, religion "similarity" debates hold no water with Christians. If you follow Christian doctrine, the Earth was populated with Adam and Eve, probably around 6,000 - 8,000 years ago. Sin came about quickly. There were no other "religions" at this point. Yes, this is obviously exclusive in nature and has to be since Christians believe in one sovereign God (so don't take it personally). This statement infuriates Humanists. Zoroastrianism, according to your link, dates anywhere from 600BCE to 6000BCE. For me there is personally no relevence.
tell a few kids a story that there is no god, then apply that to the next generation, but instead tell them it is a fact.. and you get a situation as the world is in today. What i'm trying to say is that there is as much proof for there being no god, as there is for there being a god.
The appropriate way to do this is rather than tell the kids that there is no god, don't even bring the subject up. If they want to know how something works, either tell them how it works or admit ignorance. Either they will develop ideas of God on their own (unlikely), or when they do meet religious people they'll certainly have a unique perspective on things.
I was raised, more or less, areligious. There were some very mild religious influences, but for the most part the concept of a god did not play a part in my upbringing. When I see religious people, I do not see the necessity of it and I also see the conflict it creates. From past histories like the Inquisition, which the Pope lied about by blaming it on the Spanish to try and dodge the black mark, to the Crusades which resulted in a lot of kids getting sold into slavery because they marched off to save what was, in their eyes, a mythical (not just distant and unknown, but very much propped up with imagination). Compared to more current events, like the jihadists to Christians that bomb abortion clinics or try to promote a "theory" in schools that the rest of the world scoffs at or assault gays because it is an abomination in the eyes of their god. I am sure there is a good side to it, too, but these people would very likely be doing good things anyway, while these other people, probably very decent in their own right, have misconceptions that lead them to committing bad acts.
Know that there is just as much proof of the existance of Zeus, hell theres just as much evidence for the existence of Gandalf, Frodo, and Sauron that there is of your god, or anyone else's.
Sorry man. You are incorrect in this statement. The bible is comprised of eyewitness testimony at the time by multiple people with thousands of accurate texts/manuscripts. There are over 5000 manuscripts that tell this story. The only thing that comes close is the fictional work of Homer (Iliad) with 600 manuscripts with dates far later--600 years--than at the time of its composition.
Actually, the Iliad was written around 200 years after the suposed battle of troy happened.
True, but the only surviving manuscripts are hundreds of years later--600 to be exact.
I agree. We have ~ 5,500 Greek manuscripts, 18,000 copies of the translated versions. Fairy tale? Hardly. Do your homework. If you were to find a "secular" book with as many credible sources it would be easily praised in the secular world. I won't bore the OP with historical accuracy of the bible, and that it was written by several inspired men in several different locations. Yet, the continuity of the bible speaks for itself. Several secular sources account and back up many occurrences in the bible. Historical evidences are continually found. While it is great to see uncovered evidences, the foundation for Christianity will always be faith. God apparently designed it that way. It's outstanding how reliable the bible is and how remarkable it is put together if you were to do your own research- other than coming up with a blanket statement about fairy tales with no foundation.
I'll tell you what they were inspired by. They were inspired by stories that came from before the writing of the Bible. They borrowed and added on to stories that were already there and then claimed them as their own. So of course there were different men writing somewhat similar stories in different places because those stories had already been spread prior to the writing the Bible. Biblical texts are just additions to older stories much like the "Left Behind" series has been implanted into the heads of Christians during this time period. People just took old stories and modified them. Stories from the Greeks are in there as well as stories from other more ancient tribes like the Zoroastrians and even some druidic and pagan beliefs.
And you can't point to some historically correct event and then say the whole thing is true. Even if they found something they could call Noah's Ark, that doesn't lend itself to proof of the entire Biblical texts being fact. You still have to consider the human nature of creating a "fish tale". Man has a tendency to trump up a story as time goes on. It's the reason we have tales like the Chupacabra and Jersey Devil to fill our childrens heads.
But if you insist on saying that your Bible is fact because of lofty considerations, then how can you deny the application of that same logic onto other religious texts from other beliefs? Your logic applied to other texts would imply that they are factual as well. Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, heck even Voodoo. I'm sure you could drum up a lot of eye witness accounts of zombies if you traveled to Haiti for Spring Break.
Here ya go. Start off with the link below for some proof. Maybe it will inspire you to read more about where Biblical stories have their beginnings. And don't start questioning others credibility to make an argument. Simply challenge their points. Making personal attacks does nothing for your own credibility but show your insecurity.
Oh, and btw. Jews don't believe Christ was the Messiah. So, that's why I was stating Judaism in my post. They discredit your religion from it's foundation. They call your New Testament accounts false.
For starters, religion "similarity" debates hold no water with Christians. If you follow Christian doctrine, the Earth was populated with Adam and Eve, probably around 6,000 - 8,000 years ago. Sin came about quickly. There were no other "religions" at this point. Yes, this is obviously exclusive in nature and has to be since Christians believe in one sovereign God (so don't take it personally). This statement infuriates Humanists. Zoroastrianism, according to your link, dates anywhere from 600BCE to 6000BCE. For me there is personally no relevence.
Okay, so "Christianity" starts when the story says it starts? That is absurd. Ra was the first monotheistic god we know of, worshiped by the Egyptians around the time of the pyramids being built. The story told in Genesis of the flood bears a striking resemblance to the oldest known story, Gilgamesh. The story of Jesus bears similarities to many other stories, including Osiris, Isis, and Horus from Egypt.
They were born on or very near our Christmas Day.
They were born of a Virgin-Mother. [178]
And in a Cave or Underground Chamber.
They led a life of toil for Mankind.
And were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator, Savior, Deliverer.
They were, however, vanquished by the Powers of Darkness.
And descended into Hell or the Underworld.
They rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly world.
They founded Communions of Saints and Churches into which disciples were received by Baptism.
And they were commemorated by Eucharistic meals."
- Pagan and Christian Creeds, by Edward Carpenter, pp. 20, 21.
IMHO there is no way that god exists the way the any current religion depicts him, the bible is not a factual book it is just a compilation of stories and some happen to be greatly exagerated to keep the fock in line. Religion is a CONTROL TOOL and the fear of having your mortal soul eternaly dammed was a good way to keep people in line and get them to give money. You were dead before you were born and you will be dead after you die and if god puts a soul in hell for eternity for what was done in the span of 30-80 years then he is a very illogical god. I also doubt that we are anything more than evolved bacteria and religion is just some peoples way of supressing their most deadful fear, death.
They dont know for a fact Sodom and Gomora was destroyed by god? I also believe that what people might have precieved back then were just "Anuhnaki" which are ET's that parade as gods and suposedly created us and there is better evidence to suggest that then this whole god as the divine ruler of man malarky. What single shred of evidence gives credence to a WORLD WIDE FLOOD? I am not talking the area where the bible was written but the whole world and BTW if you know anything about genetics you know Noah must have been on drugs to think he can get healthy populations of various species by having 1 breeding pair for each? To believe the stuff in the bible you really have to toss all logic out the window and I just cant do that and what about other religions? Does Indian and Mayan or Druid beliefs hold truth? What about Hindu, Bhudism, Shinto, Islam, Native American beliefs and various tribal religions found around the globe? The bible was just lucky enough to have been written by the people who won a majority of the land through wars and economic manipulation which gave them a very big pulpit from which to preach. To many acts of evil have been commited in the name of god for religion and to many people of religion hold to the notion they are better then the non believer and my soul is dammed or whatever. I guess we will see who is right when we all die!
Originally posted by viadi you know jesus prolly never even lived infact id bet money on it most of "jesus's life" can be traced to old fables like hercules its a shame really we had spent 2 millennia trying to look forward rather than backwards just think of where we would be now
Jesus lived earlier to modern day than say..characters such as Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Pericles, and Homer. There is also way more evidence poitning to his actual existence. just because he lived a long time ago doesnt mean he didnt exist.
you know jesus prolly never even lived infact id bet money on it most of "jesus's life" can be traced to old fables like hercules its a shame really we had spent 2 millennia trying to look forward rather than backwards just think of where we would be now
Jesus' life and crucifixion were both documented by the Roman government, which was renowned for its incredible organization and record keeping.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Very few well informed people will deny the existance of Jesus. Jesus did live.
I dont deny he didnt exist but I deny many feats and so called miracles he is said to have done. First off I dont think he literaly turned water into wine and I think thats just a metaphor for something, also I dont think he walked on water unless it was frozen and I also dont think his mother was a virgin because these things just sound to illogical when looked at through a scientific mind. These things were written by people over the past 2000 years to basicly control people and have an influnce with alot of power. Until I see this stuff for myself I will judge 2000 year old writtings about magic and miracles as fiction rather than fact.
Very few well informed people will deny the existance of Jesus. Jesus did live.
I dont deny he didnt exist but I deny many feats and so called miracles he is said to have done. First off I dont think he literaly turned water into wine and I think thats just a metaphor for something, also I dont think he walked on water unless it was frozen and I also dont think his mother was a virgin because these things just sound to illogical when looked at through a scientific mind. These things were written by people over the past 2000 years to basicly control people and have an influnce with alot of power. Until I see this stuff for myself I will judge 2000 year old writtings about magic and miracles as fiction rather than fact.
I agree with that, thats my view on the subject as well.
there's proof everyday of God, its right in front of you, its called The Universe "Made by God"
Gelasius
Oh good heavens no. That cant be correct. That would imply that the universe was designed and created by an entity.
Im sure its much more scientific to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and for some odd reason it exploded and became the something you see now.
Logic and science dictate that everything has a catylyst. Something does not evolve from nothing. The universe is a complex and intelligent design which requires that there be an intelligent designer period. This designer revealed himself to us through his people and his word that he has perfectly preserved through all these generations and will ontinue to do so until the saviors return and this world is judged.
You can choose to believe this or not and that is how we know that God loves us and wants our love in return. Ask yourself this question "What do I stand to gain by believing in and abiding in christ? What do I have to lose?" Anyone familliar with pascals wager will understand that no matter how much logic you apply to certain arguments there comes a point at which the person has to make a calculated leap of faith because they simply do not have enough information to prove it unequivocally.
The only way to know for certain is to die and see what happens next if anything. The inherent problem with that unfortunately is once you have crossed that barrier you forfeit your chance to choose.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Too bad its not just money you have to lose.......... You are betting your eternal soul on it my friend.
You are paranoid, no wonder you are a christian. That's why half the children being brought up are blinded by christianity.
"Worship God or you'll burn in hell." Okay maybe its not that harsh(Nowadays atleast) but its underneath everything. Yes, it teaches the child to be a good person, but to believe in such a thing? Nonsense.
Also, as previously stated, the minority(Atheists, Agnostics, and other non believers) are looked down upon, especially as a child growing up in a somewhat religious family. So you want to fit in, and, as a child, being so naive, you fall into your families beliefs and become apart of the majority.
Change my mind so much I can't even trust it My mind change me so much I can't even trust myself
I'm glad I posted this, this I think is the juiciest religous thread I've seen here in a long time, and some very interesting posts made here. I'd just like to touch on some of the arguments made thus far...
1. I don't deny the existence of Jesus, however I do question the things he supposedly did. I have plenty of theories on this, the one I usually lean toward is that he was a con artist, and note that he was executed for blasphemy, which was actually pretty common in those days. No evidence of miracles here, sorry.
2. I keep seeing in this thread people saying (with a frightening amount of certainty) that the bible is true because the bible says so. Just because there was more than 1 author (supposedly) does not mean it was truth. Of course there is going to be grains of truth there, such as geographical and reasonably historical countings, because it was written when those places and events happened. Again, no evidence of anything supernatural.
3. There is actually significant evidence suggesting the new testament wasn't written until some 40 years after Jesus' supposed death. The first book of the new testament tells about the destruction of the Jewish temple, which happened approx. 40 years after his death. Keep in mind the average lifespan 200 years ago wasn't close to what it is now.
4. Once again, there are a large multitude of texts (currently and noncurrently practiced) that lend themselves as the ultimate truth. And no, not all religions can be linked the same god you or anyone else follows. The only real gamble is how much life you're going to waste attending churches and doing other such nonsensical things.
5. "But many religions also teach about feelings, love and good morals, you give kids that and they will spread the word. If one is interested in killing and war then so be that. Yet if you think about it, it's not all that easy/conviencing to just have a "kid" believe."
Rikimaru, do you honestly think that without religion people wouldn't have feelings, love and good morals? Thats a dangerous thought to be having my friend, and one that disgusts me more than any other thing said in this thread. I have been without religion since I've been without the belief in Santa Clause, and I've got plenty of all of the above, and I've yet to meet another atheist without such either, and plenty of them unlike me grew up in atheist households.
6. "If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."
Gameloading, who said that? Richard Dawkins? Excellent bit of text that is.
7. This one's going directly to Starman... How can one conceivably use text in a book to back up the credibility of said book? So God is real because a book says so. Brilliant. You have to understand that such thought defies all logic and reason, and if you were refering to anything other than the bible, you'd be laughed off the planet.
I'm pretty sure that it was Dawkins...It's nice until you stop and think about how the road goes both ways, between Atheism and Theism. He's just pissed that atheists didn't write a book first
The fact is, Dawkins doesn't have any idea about whether or not there is a God, yet he releases essays titled "why there almost certainly is no God". The man is a hypocrite to the highest degree of the word. One who has claimed that the discussion of God is uninteresting because it is so trite and ultimately unimportant, yet his claim to fame is talking about why there isn't God! How very ironic.
And yes, I know that he started out as a biologist, but nobody knew who the hell he was until he opened his mouth about God. You think celebrities get pissed off when other people use their name as their stepping stone to fame? I wonder how God feels about it.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
I'm pretty sure that it was Dawkins...It's nice until you stop and think about how the road goes both ways, between Atheism and Theism. He's just pissed that atheists didn't write a book first The fact is, Dawkins doesn't have any idea about whether or not there is a God, yet he releases essays titled "why there almost certainly is no God". The man is a hypocrite to the highest degree of the word. One who has claimed that the discussion of God is uninteresting because it is so trite and ultimately unimportant, yet his claim to fame is talking about why there isn't God! How very ironic. And yes, I know that he started out as a biologist, but nobody knew who the hell he was until he opened his mouth about God. You think celebrities get pissed off when other people use their name as their stepping stone to fame? I wonder how God feels about it.
Of course you can't disprove that there is a god, the text is too vague. Lots of things like this are impossible to disprove, but that in no way shape or form makes them true if they cannot be proven.
Even though this topic isnt entirely about the bible here is my two cents.
If you are religious and you belive the bible is real because of faith, nobody can touch you, it's an automatic tie. Bible nuts pride themselves on beleaving in things that are hard to belive in, they think god will bless them for that. If you want history or fact in you bible you are so screwed. Sometimes the bible is written by two authors, or sometimes it's the word of god, sometimes it's the word of man or even the word of two or more men, sometimes the bible is literal and sometimes it's simply symbolic. Start right off in the first two books of the bible God creates Adam and Eve at the same time. In the second chapter god creates Adam and then Adam does a few things, he names the animals etc, he gets lonely and he talks to god and God says alright well I will provide you with a mate and he takes the rib and creates Eve. These are two diffrent creation stories. Now belivers will say "oh well thats just two diffrent versions of the same event" Fine!. But dont say in the next breath and tell people you have to take the bible literally.
Lets take a moment to consider the important lessons we've learned from the king of kings. Elvis Erin Presley died in 1977, he was born and lived in a time when most people in his land were literate. We have many first hand reports about Elvis's life and many reliable records. Medical, musical and other wise. Even so there are people who insist Elvis is not really dead, sound familier? There are even dozens of books written by people who actually knew Elvis that contained conflicting stories of his life, sound familier? We have photographs of Elvis in the morgue dead as a fucking door nail and in just 30 years there are stories that he's not dead. In the book Fit for a King that delves into his eating habits the author suggest that in order to make Elvis Presley's beloved fried chicken, you'll need 3 3/4 cup of flour, salt, paprika, and pepper. In Are You Hungry Tonight a in depth look into Elvis's favorite food the kings beloved fried chicken recipe calls for 1 1/2 flour, salt, and pepper. Glaring diffrences! One quarter cup less flour! NO Paprika! Fucking hieratics! Now imagine trying to figure out which is the true Elvis chicken 2000 years from now!
Noah's Arc. There is no possible way Noah could of retained all 10billion species on a single boat and then distribute them accordingly were the marsupials (<sp) are all on Australia, absolutly crazy. I find it ridiculous that people even try to prove it's true. It's not a literal story, It's a story about destruction, redemption, starting over,beginning a new, forgivness. To try and read that literally would be to miss the point of the story. This was probably meant to be a serial story with missing parts. There is certainly partial truth in the story. There was a serious flood on the Euphrates River a 125miles southeast of present day Baghdad. Every Spring the Euphrates floods but according to archaeologists, one June at around 2900 B.C. there was a 6 day storm and the river rose another 22ft the river overflowed the dams and alot of people got killed. One of the survivors was a local Sumarian king named Zeasudra (<sp) he resourcefully took a local barge loaded with local goods and food and rode the flood down stream into the Persian Gulf. Thats it! big flood, boat full of goods, happily ever after. And there is geologic and archaeological evidence to support that. No surprise that six other cultures had flood stories like Noah's. But see what happens when you pretend to abandone the faith world and use science. There is always a real scientist willing to check your facts.
Moses and the Red Sea. Thousands of Jews are supposedly enslaved by an Egyptian Pharoh. I dont want to sound like Mel Gibsons dad here, but nobody can find any evidence of that. Floods you can find but slaves in Egypt nowhere outside of the dam bible. So Moses, which there is no evidence of Moses outside of the bible. Moses goes to the Pharoh and says "let my people go" no note from god nothing. Now why wouldnt god just appear to Pharoh and say it himself because god works in mysterious, inefficent, and insanely cruel ways, set of 10 plauges ect ect.. We are told these people spent 40 years in the desert wandering around. Not a shread of evidence to suppot any of this! How do you wander through the desert for 40 years and not leave ANY evidence what so ever that you were there is beyond me. The Egyptians never record anything that make the pharoh look bad, it would diminish the glory of the pharoh. They probably never actually crossed the Red Sea, they more then likely crossed the Reed Sea and when you get a good north wind going it drys up. It has since dried up permently due to the Suez Canal.. Once you buy the Reed Sea thing, well they walked across a low tied marsh on a windy day, what the miracle in that. Why give us a silly explanation for a miracle, if it isnt a miracle it isnt god it's just an average story. Walked across the dry marsh. Im still pissed about god killing every first born child, could'nt he of just smacked the pharoh - what kind of loving god is that? Kills inocent children. Not the people who commited the crime but there children. . .
There is this guy calls himself the messiah, says he's the son of god, says he is going to change the world, says he can sure the sick but only the ones he happens to bump in to. There probably was a man named Jesus. At least there are multiple sources about a flesh and blood guy named Jesus. Ok if Jesus lived he had to die, makes sense but what happend after he died is a whole other story. You have to belive the ressurection of Jesus if you a Christian or the game is up. I understand the desire to prove it. You dont have to prove it, there is no possible way you could prove it. Knowing somebody was dead at that time wasnt really and exact science.
The fact that we have parts that arnt in the bible that are still recognized part of the bible and that there sacred books just not in the bible. You have to ask why arnt they in the bible. Because the commitee that decided didnt put them in. COMMITEE! they voted?! Yeah thats how it happend. Obviously it's and edited volume. Examining the bible is important because the book and it's mind set is so ingrained in our culture. All about that little list called the ten commandments which always seems to be in the news. In 2003 the Alabama Supreme Court refused to remove the 10 commandment that had been placed in front of the courthouse (as you already know old news.) When he was suspended he had rabid supports inside and outside the courthouse. Elton John is the best selling song of all time. . . popular sure doesnt mean right. I bet more people can sing more Elton John then can list all 10 Commandments. How many of you got the one about graven images? Huge problems with useing the bible as a moral guide. Which parts are you going to use and which arnt you going to use? One section that conservitives always site is that a man should'nt lay with another man and therfore being gay is a sin! Yeah well go to the next chapter were it says we should stone to death disobedient children. So what we do is we pick and choose the passage we want and thats not consistent or fair. You want to pick and choose? Check these out no out of context bullshit here! Exodus 21:7 says it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery NOT EVEN IN NEVADA!. Exodus 35:2 Anyone working on the Sabbth should be put to death. Corintheians 11:14 Says if a man has long hair it is a shame on to him. Google a picture of Jesus look at the hair. Well it's right about that one.
The bible doesnt teach history. It sure isnt great literrature. If it were published as fiction no reviewer would give it a passing grade. There are some vivid scenes and quatable phrases, there is no plot, no structure. There is a tremendous amount of filler and the chracters are painfully one demensional. What ever you do dont read the bible for moral code it advocates prejeduce, superstition, and murder. Dont think any of this was on topic but huh! felt like ranting.
there's proof everyday of God, its right in front of you, its called The Universe "Made by God"
Gelasius
Oh good heavens no. That cant be correct. That would imply that the universe was designed and created by an entity.
Im sure its much more scientific to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and for some odd reason it exploded and became the something you see now.
Logic and science dictate that everything has a catylyst. Something does not evolve from nothing. The universe is a complex and intelligent design which requires that there be an intelligent designer period. This designer revealed himself to us through his people and his word that he has perfectly preserved through all these generations and will ontinue to do so until the saviors return and this world is judged.
You can choose to believe this or not and that is how we know that God loves us and wants our love in return. Ask yourself this question "What do I stand to gain by believing in and abiding in christ? What do I have to lose?" Anyone familliar with pascals wager will understand that no matter how much logic you apply to certain arguments there comes a point at which the person has to make a calculated leap of faith because they simply do not have enough information to prove it unequivocally.
The only way to know for certain is to die and see what happens next if anything. The inherent problem with that unfortunately is once you have crossed that barrier you forfeit your chance to choose.
But ofcourse, it is perfectly reasonable for to believe in an entity that is even more complex then the universe came out of nothing?
While I first heard it from Richard Dawkins, it was not Richard Dawkins who originaly came up with the chinese teapot.was an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russel.
Take a fictional book, fantasy preferably, one that tells about a time before technology reigned, have a few people learn this story by heart. Put them off in their own little colony outside of civilization, and get them to have kids. Now the fun begins... As these kids are growing up, teach them this story. Don't teach it as a story, but as fact. Teach them that this story MUST be believed or they will all go to some specific very bad place where they will spend all of eternity in some undescribably bad situation. Let a decade or 2 go by, then throw in people that have a different viewpoint.
By this time the kids in this makeshift community will believe (I suppose know is a better word, for it is taught to them as fact) that what they were raised upon is an indisputable fact. And since the nonbelievers are the minority, the nonbelievers will be persecuted, the believers, no matter how much logic and reason is thrown at them, will never come around to the nonbeliever's thinking, because that is how they are raised. Now let thousands of years go by. Obviously the majority of believers are going to have the majority of the children, and the margin of believers to nonbelievers will stay the same.
Get the point? Now apply this comparitively with how the real world is currently. See any similarities? Of course you do, but do you see any differences? I don't. Now your first response is to call all of this a theory and a made up story. Of course it is a made up story, but simply psychology backs up my point just the same. Welcome to the world of religion. Know that there is just as much proof of the existance of Zeus, hell theres just as much evidence for the existence of Gandalf, Frodo, and Sauron that there is of your god, or anyone else's.
Most people who were brought up with a faith do at some point question it. You also find plenty of people without a religious upbringing commiting to a faith. If there is nothing behind the faith except for believing in some stories, it won't mean anything to most people. What your model here is significantly missing, is any kind of effect that the fictional book might have on the lives of the people who believe in it.
My speculation of what would happen to this community over thousands of years is that this belief would die out pretty quickly - probably so that it becomes the minority within 3 or 4 generations and vanishes altogether within 300 years, probably to be replaced by something that people actually get some kind of spiritual benefit out of.
Another thing that is worth mentioning is that religions by their nature actually start off as minorities...often even just one person. The ones that last, do so in spite of persecution. While in history, we see examples of people manipulating religions to try to gain control of a populace, a religion invented by a government is highly unlikely ever to get off the ground.
there's proof everyday of God, its right in front of you, its called The Universe "Made by God"
Gelasius
Oh good heavens no. That cant be correct. That would imply that the universe was designed and created by an entity.
Im sure its much more scientific to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and for some odd reason it exploded and became the something you see now.
Logic and science dictate that everything has a catylyst. Something does not evolve from nothing. The universe is a complex and intelligent design which requires that there be an intelligent designer period. This designer revealed himself to us through his people and his word that he has perfectly preserved through all these generations and will ontinue to do so until the saviors return and this world is judged.
You can choose to believe this or not and that is how we know that God loves us and wants our love in return. Ask yourself this question "What do I stand to gain by believing in and abiding in christ? What do I have to lose?" Anyone familliar with pascals wager will understand that no matter how much logic you apply to certain arguments there comes a point at which the person has to make a calculated leap of faith because they simply do not have enough information to prove it unequivocally.
The only way to know for certain is to die and see what happens next if anything. The inherent problem with that unfortunately is once you have crossed that barrier you forfeit your chance to choose.
But ofcourse, it is perfectly reasonable for to believe in an entity that is even more complex then the universe came out of nothing?
Ahh therein lies the catch. He didnt come out of nothing. In order for something to begin there needs to be a cause. But when you reason that all the way back as far as you can we end up with something peculiar and unique its the uncaused cause. There has to exist somehing that simply always existed and is the cause for everything else that is.
Check out St Thomas Aquinas summa theologie for more.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Comments
I'll ask you like I asked the other poster. How come you don't use that same logic and apply it to other religions? That would prove them to be just as factual as Christianity. I'm sure people can attest to seeing zombies in Haiti as well. Does that make voodoo a valid religion?
And stating historical events that may have been true doesn't lend credibility to an entire document. Have you read a newspaper lately? It has true stories in it coupled with editorial. Or how about the book the DaVinci Code? It's got some fact sprinkled in with fiction as well. Are we to believe all that is written in it?
Use logic to pursue your truth and you will fare better. I'm not saying that there is no God, but if you're going to pursue God then use your mind that God gave you to figure out what's going on. Don't let other men steer you into their revelation. Seek your own. Just so you know there has not been 1 historical/geological find that has ever been in contrast with what is in the bible. In fact, every year we keep finding evidence to support what has been recorded in the bible for thousands of years. People used to laugh at Sodom and Gomorrah....that is until they uncovered it. The naysayers of a worldwide flood have recently had to change their tune when evidence now points to this. I could go on and on about this but It won't matter how much we find or prove.
Some people's hearts will always be hardened towards God and will always persucute the Faith. He did give us free will. You either choose for him or against him. This is where this road leads with most Christians when you get in a debate with them. They start throwing out that same crap like your "hardened heart" mumbo jumbo.
I'm not persecuting your faith. I believe Jesus walked the Earth. I just don't think it's possible for a man to perform magic without slide of hand. And I believe that the people who pumped up his stories did him injustice. His message alone was enough to inspire the world to change. He was definitely a great person and teacher. Why take away from that by trying to add on to what already has meaning?
And so what if Sodom and Gomorrah existed? Okay, it existed. Does that make the WHOLE Bible and it's tales true? A man being swallowed by a whale is true because we found Sodom and Gomorrah!!! Does that sound like good logic to you? And lot's of towns have been destroyed by natural catastrophes. Pompeii for instance. What about the recent Indonesian tsunami? Any tale can be twisted to be an act of God. I mean look at all the people claiming New Orleans was hit by Katrina because of all the homosexuals there. Yet somehow, God missed and killed all the black people!!!!!!!!! There is no sense in talking further with you. Since you attack anything religious or even slightly conservative in nature, it wouldn't matter what anyone proved to you. So, it looks like the "mumbo, jumbo" holds true with you.
"Kaneda! What...do you see?"
Actually, the Iliad was written around 200 years after the suposed battle of troy happened.
True, but the only surviving manuscripts are hundreds of years later--600 to be exact.I agree. We have ~ 5,500 Greek manuscripts, 18,000 copies of the translated versions. Fairy tale? Hardly. Do your homework. If you were to find a "secular" book with as many credible sources it would be easily praised in the secular world. I won't bore the OP with historical accuracy of the bible, and that it was written by several inspired men in several different locations. Yet, the continuity of the bible speaks for itself. Several secular sources account and back up many occurrences in the bible. Historical evidences are continually found. While it is great to see uncovered evidences, the foundation for Christianity will always be faith. God apparently designed it that way. It's outstanding how reliable the bible is and how remarkable it is put together if you were to do your own research- other than coming up with a blanket statement about fairy tales with no foundation.
I'll tell you what they were inspired by. They were inspired by stories that came from before the writing of the Bible. They borrowed and added on to stories that were already there and then claimed them as their own. So of course there were different men writing somewhat similar stories in different places because those stories had already been spread prior to the writing the Bible. Biblical texts are just additions to older stories much like the "Left Behind" series has been implanted into the heads of Christians during this time period. People just took old stories and modified them. Stories from the Greeks are in there as well as stories from other more ancient tribes like the Zoroastrians and even some druidic and pagan beliefs.
And you can't point to some historically correct event and then say the whole thing is true. Even if they found something they could call Noah's Ark, that doesn't lend itself to proof of the entire Biblical texts being fact. You still have to consider the human nature of creating a "fish tale". Man has a tendency to trump up a story as time goes on. It's the reason we have tales like the Chupacabra and Jersey Devil to fill our childrens heads.
But if you insist on saying that your Bible is fact because of lofty considerations, then how can you deny the application of that same logic onto other religious texts from other beliefs? Your logic applied to other texts would imply that they are factual as well. Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, heck even Voodoo. I'm sure you could drum up a lot of eye witness accounts of zombies if you traveled to Haiti for Spring Break.
Here ya go. Start off with the link below for some proof. Maybe it will inspire you to read more about where Biblical stories have their beginnings. And don't start questioning others credibility to make an argument. Simply challenge their points. Making personal attacks does nothing for your own credibility but show your insecurity.
Oh, and btw. Jews don't believe Christ was the Messiah. So, that's why I was stating Judaism in my post. They discredit your religion from it's foundation. They call your New Testament accounts false.
Zoroastrianism - Relation to Other Religions and Cultures
For starters, religion "similarity" debates hold no water with Christians. If you follow Christian doctrine, the Earth was populated with Adam and Eve, probably around 6,000 - 8,000 years ago. Sin came about quickly. There were no other "religions" at this point. Yes, this is obviously exclusive in nature and has to be since Christians believe in one sovereign God (so don't take it personally). This statement infuriates Humanists. Zoroastrianism, according to your link, dates anywhere from 600BCE to 6000BCE. For me there is personally no relevence.
I was raised, more or less, areligious. There were some very mild religious influences, but for the most part the concept of a god did not play a part in my upbringing. When I see religious people, I do not see the necessity of it and I also see the conflict it creates. From past histories like the Inquisition, which the Pope lied about by blaming it on the Spanish to try and dodge the black mark, to the Crusades which resulted in a lot of kids getting sold into slavery because they marched off to save what was, in their eyes, a mythical (not just distant and unknown, but very much propped up with imagination). Compared to more current events, like the jihadists to Christians that bomb abortion clinics or try to promote a "theory" in schools that the rest of the world scoffs at or assault gays because it is an abomination in the eyes of their god. I am sure there is a good side to it, too, but these people would very likely be doing good things anyway, while these other people, probably very decent in their own right, have misconceptions that lead them to committing bad acts.
Actually, the Iliad was written around 200 years after the suposed battle of troy happened.
True, but the only surviving manuscripts are hundreds of years later--600 to be exact.I agree. We have ~ 5,500 Greek manuscripts, 18,000 copies of the translated versions. Fairy tale? Hardly. Do your homework. If you were to find a "secular" book with as many credible sources it would be easily praised in the secular world. I won't bore the OP with historical accuracy of the bible, and that it was written by several inspired men in several different locations. Yet, the continuity of the bible speaks for itself. Several secular sources account and back up many occurrences in the bible. Historical evidences are continually found. While it is great to see uncovered evidences, the foundation for Christianity will always be faith. God apparently designed it that way. It's outstanding how reliable the bible is and how remarkable it is put together if you were to do your own research- other than coming up with a blanket statement about fairy tales with no foundation.
I'll tell you what they were inspired by. They were inspired by stories that came from before the writing of the Bible. They borrowed and added on to stories that were already there and then claimed them as their own. So of course there were different men writing somewhat similar stories in different places because those stories had already been spread prior to the writing the Bible. Biblical texts are just additions to older stories much like the "Left Behind" series has been implanted into the heads of Christians during this time period. People just took old stories and modified them. Stories from the Greeks are in there as well as stories from other more ancient tribes like the Zoroastrians and even some druidic and pagan beliefs.
And you can't point to some historically correct event and then say the whole thing is true. Even if they found something they could call Noah's Ark, that doesn't lend itself to proof of the entire Biblical texts being fact. You still have to consider the human nature of creating a "fish tale". Man has a tendency to trump up a story as time goes on. It's the reason we have tales like the Chupacabra and Jersey Devil to fill our childrens heads.
But if you insist on saying that your Bible is fact because of lofty considerations, then how can you deny the application of that same logic onto other religious texts from other beliefs? Your logic applied to other texts would imply that they are factual as well. Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, heck even Voodoo. I'm sure you could drum up a lot of eye witness accounts of zombies if you traveled to Haiti for Spring Break.
Here ya go. Start off with the link below for some proof. Maybe it will inspire you to read more about where Biblical stories have their beginnings. And don't start questioning others credibility to make an argument. Simply challenge their points. Making personal attacks does nothing for your own credibility but show your insecurity.
Oh, and btw. Jews don't believe Christ was the Messiah. So, that's why I was stating Judaism in my post. They discredit your religion from it's foundation. They call your New Testament accounts false.
Zoroastrianism - Relation to Other Religions and Cultures
For starters, religion "similarity" debates hold no water with Christians. If you follow Christian doctrine, the Earth was populated with Adam and Eve, probably around 6,000 - 8,000 years ago. Sin came about quickly. There were no other "religions" at this point. Yes, this is obviously exclusive in nature and has to be since Christians believe in one sovereign God (so don't take it personally). This statement infuriates Humanists. Zoroastrianism, according to your link, dates anywhere from 600BCE to 6000BCE. For me there is personally no relevence.
Okay, so "Christianity" starts when the story says it starts? That is absurd. Ra was the first monotheistic god we know of, worshiped by the Egyptians around the time of the pyramids being built. The story told in Genesis of the flood bears a striking resemblance to the oldest known story, Gilgamesh. The story of Jesus bears similarities to many other stories, including Osiris, Isis, and Horus from Egypt.
Additionally cited from http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/bethlehem/beth1053.html
www.youtube.com/watch
This is exactly what the story of Jesus had in common with other stories about messiah's etc.
IMHO there is no way that god exists the way the any current religion depicts him, the bible is not a factual book it is just a compilation of stories and some happen to be greatly exagerated to keep the fock in line. Religion is a CONTROL TOOL and the fear of having your mortal soul eternaly dammed was a good way to keep people in line and get them to give money. You were dead before you were born and you will be dead after you die and if god puts a soul in hell for eternity for what was done in the span of 30-80 years then he is a very illogical god. I also doubt that we are anything more than evolved bacteria and religion is just some peoples way of supressing their most deadful fear, death.
They dont know for a fact Sodom and Gomora was destroyed by god? I also believe that what people might have precieved back then were just "Anuhnaki" which are ET's that parade as gods and suposedly created us and there is better evidence to suggest that then this whole god as the divine ruler of man malarky. What single shred of evidence gives credence to a WORLD WIDE FLOOD? I am not talking the area where the bible was written but the whole world and BTW if you know anything about genetics you know Noah must have been on drugs to think he can get healthy populations of various species by having 1 breeding pair for each? To believe the stuff in the bible you really have to toss all logic out the window and I just cant do that and what about other religions? Does Indian and Mayan or Druid beliefs hold truth? What about Hindu, Bhudism, Shinto, Islam, Native American beliefs and various tribal religions found around the globe? The bible was just lucky enough to have been written by the people who won a majority of the land through wars and economic manipulation which gave them a very big pulpit from which to preach. To many acts of evil have been commited in the name of god for religion and to many people of religion hold to the notion they are better then the non believer and my soul is dammed or whatever. I guess we will see who is right when we all die!
{(RIP)} SWG
Jesus lived earlier to modern day than say..characters such as Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Pericles, and Homer. There is also way more evidence poitning to his actual existence. just because he lived a long time ago doesnt mean he didnt exist.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
{(RIP)} SWG
there's proof everyday of God, its right in front of you, its called The Universe "Made by God"
Gelasius
I agree with that, thats my view on the subject as well.
Oh good heavens no. That cant be correct. That would imply that the universe was designed and created by an entity.
Im sure its much more scientific to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and for some odd reason it exploded and became the something you see now.
Logic and science dictate that everything has a catylyst. Something does not evolve from nothing. The universe is a complex and intelligent design which requires that there be an intelligent designer period. This designer revealed himself to us through his people and his word that he has perfectly preserved through all these generations and will ontinue to do so until the saviors return and this world is judged.
You can choose to believe this or not and that is how we know that God loves us and wants our love in return. Ask yourself this question "What do I stand to gain by believing in and abiding in christ? What do I have to lose?" Anyone familliar with pascals wager will understand that no matter how much logic you apply to certain arguments there comes a point at which the person has to make a calculated leap of faith because they simply do not have enough information to prove it unequivocally.
The only way to know for certain is to die and see what happens next if anything. The inherent problem with that unfortunately is once you have crossed that barrier you forfeit your chance to choose.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
"Worship God or you'll burn in hell." Okay maybe its not that harsh(Nowadays atleast) but its underneath everything. Yes, it teaches the child to be a good person, but to believe in such a thing? Nonsense.
Also, as previously stated, the minority(Atheists, Agnostics, and other non believers) are looked down upon, especially as a child growing up in a somewhat religious family. So you want to fit in, and, as a child, being so naive, you fall into your families beliefs and become apart of the majority.
Change my mind so much I can't even trust it
My mind change me so much I can't even trust myself
1. I don't deny the existence of Jesus, however I do question the things he supposedly did. I have plenty of theories on this, the one I usually lean toward is that he was a con artist, and note that he was executed for blasphemy, which was actually pretty common in those days. No evidence of miracles here, sorry.
2. I keep seeing in this thread people saying (with a frightening amount of certainty) that the bible is true because the bible says so. Just because there was more than 1 author (supposedly) does not mean it was truth. Of course there is going to be grains of truth there, such as geographical and reasonably historical countings, because it was written when those places and events happened. Again, no evidence of anything supernatural.
3. There is actually significant evidence suggesting the new testament wasn't written until some 40 years after Jesus' supposed death. The first book of the new testament tells about the destruction of the Jewish temple, which happened approx. 40 years after his death. Keep in mind the average lifespan 200 years ago wasn't close to what it is now.
4. Once again, there are a large multitude of texts (currently and noncurrently practiced) that lend themselves as the ultimate truth. And no, not all religions can be linked the same god you or anyone else follows. The only real gamble is how much life you're going to waste attending churches and doing other such nonsensical things.
5. "But many religions also teach about feelings, love and good morals, you give kids that and they will spread the word. If one is interested in killing and war then so be that. Yet if you think about it, it's not all that easy/conviencing to just have a "kid" believe."
Rikimaru, do you honestly think that without religion people wouldn't have feelings, love and good morals? Thats a dangerous thought to be having my friend, and one that disgusts me more than any other thing said in this thread. I have been without religion since I've been without the belief in Santa Clause, and I've got plenty of all of the above, and I've yet to meet another atheist without such either, and plenty of them unlike me grew up in atheist households.
6. "If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."
Gameloading, who said that? Richard Dawkins? Excellent bit of text that is.
7. This one's going directly to Starman... How can one conceivably use text in a book to back up the credibility of said book? So God is real because a book says so. Brilliant. You have to understand that such thought defies all logic and reason, and if you were refering to anything other than the bible, you'd be laughed off the planet.
I'm pretty sure that it was Dawkins...It's nice until you stop and think about how the road goes both ways, between Atheism and Theism. He's just pissed that atheists didn't write a book first
The fact is, Dawkins doesn't have any idea about whether or not there is a God, yet he releases essays titled "why there almost certainly is no God". The man is a hypocrite to the highest degree of the word. One who has claimed that the discussion of God is uninteresting because it is so trite and ultimately unimportant, yet his claim to fame is talking about why there isn't God! How very ironic.
And yes, I know that he started out as a biologist, but nobody knew who the hell he was until he opened his mouth about God. You think celebrities get pissed off when other people use their name as their stepping stone to fame? I wonder how God feels about it.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
If you are religious and you belive the bible is real because of faith, nobody can touch you, it's an automatic tie. Bible nuts pride themselves on beleaving in things that are hard to belive in, they think god will bless them for that. If you want history or fact in you bible you are so screwed. Sometimes the bible is written by two authors, or sometimes it's the word of god, sometimes it's the word of man or even the word of two or more men, sometimes the bible is literal and sometimes it's simply symbolic. Start right off in the first two books of the bible God creates Adam and Eve at the same time. In the second chapter god creates Adam and then Adam does a few things, he names the animals etc, he gets lonely and he talks to god and God says alright well I will provide you with a mate and he takes the rib and creates Eve. These are two diffrent creation stories. Now belivers will say "oh well thats just two diffrent versions of the same event" Fine!. But dont say in the next breath and tell people you have to take the bible literally.
Lets take a moment to consider the important lessons we've learned from the king of kings. Elvis Erin Presley died in 1977, he was born and lived in a time when most people in his land were literate. We have many first hand reports about Elvis's life and many reliable records. Medical, musical and other wise. Even so there are people who insist Elvis is not really dead, sound familier? There are even dozens of books written by people who actually knew Elvis that contained conflicting stories of his life, sound familier? We have photographs of Elvis in the morgue dead as a fucking door nail and in just 30 years there are stories that he's not dead. In the book Fit for a King that delves into his eating habits the author suggest that in order to make Elvis Presley's beloved fried chicken, you'll need 3 3/4 cup of flour, salt, paprika, and pepper. In Are You Hungry Tonight a in depth look into Elvis's favorite food the kings beloved fried chicken recipe calls for 1 1/2 flour, salt, and pepper. Glaring diffrences! One quarter cup less flour! NO Paprika! Fucking hieratics! Now imagine trying to figure out which is the true Elvis chicken 2000 years from now!
Noah's Arc. There is no possible way Noah could of retained all 10billion species on a single boat and then distribute them accordingly were the marsupials (<sp) are all on Australia, absolutly crazy. I find it ridiculous that people even try to prove it's true. It's not a literal story, It's a story about destruction, redemption, starting over,beginning a new, forgivness. To try and read that literally would be to miss the point of the story. This was probably meant to be a serial story with missing parts. There is certainly partial truth in the story. There was a serious flood on the Euphrates River a 125miles southeast of present day Baghdad. Every Spring the Euphrates floods but according to archaeologists, one June at around 2900 B.C. there was a 6 day storm and the river rose another 22ft the river overflowed the dams and alot of people got killed. One of the survivors was a local Sumarian king named Zeasudra (<sp) he resourcefully took a local barge loaded with local goods and food and rode the flood down stream into the Persian Gulf. Thats it! big flood, boat full of goods, happily ever after. And there is geologic and archaeological evidence to support that. No surprise that six other cultures had flood stories like Noah's. But see what happens when you pretend to abandone the faith world and use science. There is always a real scientist willing to check your facts.
Moses and the Red Sea. Thousands of Jews are supposedly enslaved by an Egyptian Pharoh. I dont want to sound like Mel Gibsons dad here, but nobody can find any evidence of that. Floods you can find but slaves in Egypt nowhere outside of the dam bible. So Moses, which there is no evidence of Moses outside of the bible. Moses goes to the Pharoh and says "let my people go" no note from god nothing. Now why wouldnt god just appear to Pharoh and say it himself because god works in mysterious, inefficent, and insanely cruel ways, set of 10 plauges ect ect.. We are told these people spent 40 years in the desert wandering around. Not a shread of evidence to suppot any of this! How do you wander through the desert for 40 years and not leave ANY evidence what so ever that you were there is beyond me. The Egyptians never record anything that make the pharoh look bad, it would diminish the glory of the pharoh. They probably never actually crossed the Red Sea, they more then likely crossed the Reed Sea and when you get a good north wind going it drys up. It has since dried up permently due to the Suez Canal.. Once you buy the Reed Sea thing, well they walked across a low tied marsh on a windy day, what the miracle in that. Why give us a silly explanation for a miracle, if it isnt a miracle it isnt god it's just an average story. Walked across the dry marsh. Im still pissed about god killing every first born child, could'nt he of just smacked the pharoh - what kind of loving god is that? Kills inocent children. Not the people who commited the crime but there children. . .
There is this guy calls himself the messiah, says he's the son of god, says he is going to change the world, says he can sure the sick but only the ones he happens to bump in to. There probably was a man named Jesus. At least there are multiple sources about a flesh and blood guy named Jesus. Ok if Jesus lived he had to die, makes sense but what happend after he died is a whole other story. You have to belive the ressurection of Jesus if you a Christian or the game is up. I understand the desire to prove it. You dont have to prove it, there is no possible way you could prove it. Knowing somebody was dead at that time wasnt really and exact science.
The fact that we have parts that arnt in the bible that are still recognized part of the bible and that there sacred books just not in the bible. You have to ask why arnt they in the bible. Because the commitee that decided didnt put them in. COMMITEE! they voted?! Yeah thats how it happend. Obviously it's and edited volume. Examining the bible is important because the book and it's mind set is so ingrained in our culture. All about that little list called the ten commandments which always seems to be in the news. In 2003 the Alabama Supreme Court refused to remove the 10 commandment that had been placed in front of the courthouse (as you already know old news.) When he was suspended he had rabid supports inside and outside the courthouse. Elton John is the best selling song of all time. . . popular sure doesnt mean right. I bet more people can sing more Elton John then can list all 10 Commandments. How many of you got the one about graven images? Huge problems with useing the bible as a moral guide. Which parts are you going to use and which arnt you going to use? One section that conservitives always site is that a man should'nt lay with another man and therfore being gay is a sin! Yeah well go to the next chapter were it says we should stone to death disobedient children. So what we do is we pick and choose the passage we want and thats not consistent or fair. You want to pick and choose? Check these out no out of context bullshit here! Exodus 21:7 says it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery NOT EVEN IN NEVADA!. Exodus 35:2 Anyone working on the Sabbth should be put to death. Corintheians 11:14 Says if a man has long hair it is a shame on to him. Google a picture of Jesus look at the hair. Well it's right about that one.
The bible doesnt teach history. It sure isnt great literrature. If it were published as fiction no reviewer would give it a passing grade. There are some vivid scenes and quatable phrases, there is no plot, no structure. There is a tremendous amount of filler and the chracters are painfully one demensional. What ever you do dont read the bible for moral code it advocates prejeduce, superstition, and murder. Dont think any of this was on topic but huh! felt like ranting.
On Time? On Target? Never Quit?
Oh good heavens no. That cant be correct. That would imply that the universe was designed and created by an entity.
Im sure its much more scientific to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and for some odd reason it exploded and became the something you see now.
Logic and science dictate that everything has a catylyst. Something does not evolve from nothing. The universe is a complex and intelligent design which requires that there be an intelligent designer period. This designer revealed himself to us through his people and his word that he has perfectly preserved through all these generations and will ontinue to do so until the saviors return and this world is judged.
You can choose to believe this or not and that is how we know that God loves us and wants our love in return. Ask yourself this question "What do I stand to gain by believing in and abiding in christ? What do I have to lose?" Anyone familliar with pascals wager will understand that no matter how much logic you apply to certain arguments there comes a point at which the person has to make a calculated leap of faith because they simply do not have enough information to prove it unequivocally.
The only way to know for certain is to die and see what happens next if anything. The inherent problem with that unfortunately is once you have crossed that barrier you forfeit your chance to choose.
But ofcourse, it is perfectly reasonable for to believe in an entity that is even more complex then the universe came out of nothing?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russels_Teapot
Most people who were brought up with a faith do at some point question it. You also find plenty of people without a religious upbringing commiting to a faith. If there is nothing behind the faith except for believing in some stories, it won't mean anything to most people. What your model here is significantly missing, is any kind of effect that the fictional book might have on the lives of the people who believe in it.
My speculation of what would happen to this community over thousands of years is that this belief would die out pretty quickly - probably so that it becomes the minority within 3 or 4 generations and vanishes altogether within 300 years, probably to be replaced by something that people actually get some kind of spiritual benefit out of.
Another thing that is worth mentioning is that religions by their nature actually start off as minorities...often even just one person. The ones that last, do so in spite of persecution. While in history, we see examples of people manipulating religions to try to gain control of a populace, a religion invented by a government is highly unlikely ever to get off the ground.
Oh good heavens no. That cant be correct. That would imply that the universe was designed and created by an entity.
Im sure its much more scientific to believe that in the beginning there was nothing and for some odd reason it exploded and became the something you see now.
Logic and science dictate that everything has a catylyst. Something does not evolve from nothing. The universe is a complex and intelligent design which requires that there be an intelligent designer period. This designer revealed himself to us through his people and his word that he has perfectly preserved through all these generations and will ontinue to do so until the saviors return and this world is judged.
You can choose to believe this or not and that is how we know that God loves us and wants our love in return. Ask yourself this question "What do I stand to gain by believing in and abiding in christ? What do I have to lose?" Anyone familliar with pascals wager will understand that no matter how much logic you apply to certain arguments there comes a point at which the person has to make a calculated leap of faith because they simply do not have enough information to prove it unequivocally.
The only way to know for certain is to die and see what happens next if anything. The inherent problem with that unfortunately is once you have crossed that barrier you forfeit your chance to choose.
But ofcourse, it is perfectly reasonable for to believe in an entity that is even more complex then the universe came out of nothing?Ahh therein lies the catch. He didnt come out of nothing. In order for something to begin there needs to be a cause. But when you reason that all the way back as far as you can we end up with something peculiar and unique its the uncaused cause. There has to exist somehing that simply always existed and is the cause for everything else that is.
Check out St Thomas Aquinas summa theologie for more.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.