the Nonsense that is raiding

XApotheosisX

"I got an idea lets make content that takes 40+ people to work together for many hours to defeat. And when they do defeat it lets have the monster drop 2-5 pieces of loot, so that 90%+ of the people don't get any reward at all .... well call it a raid!"

 

retrospectic

Originally posted by XApotheosisX


"I got an idea lets make content that takes 40+ people to work together for many hours to defeat. And when they do defeat it lets have the monster drop 2-5 pieces of loot, so that 90%+ of the people don't get any reward at all .... well call it a raid!"
 

Please give me a better solution for "hardcore" gamers as a way to increase replay value.  Leveling, factions, quests, and tradeskills eventually get maxxed out.  What's next?  PvP? 

retrospectic

Also, the gap between raid content and casual content has gotten much smaller in WoW due to TBC expansion.  10 and 20man raid gear is nearly identical to some 5man stuff.  The addition of sockets to a lot of raid gear also allows for hardcore players to customize their stuff.

 

I don't know. Raiding can be fun if done right.

XApotheosisX

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by XApotheosisX


"I got an idea lets make content that takes 40+ people to work together for many hours to defeat. And when they do defeat it lets have the monster drop 2-5 pieces of loot, so that 90%+ of the people don't get any reward at all .... well call it a raid!"
 

Please give me a better solution for "hardcore" gamers as a way to increase replay value.  Leveling, factions, quests, and tradeskills eventually get maxxed out.  What's next?  PvP? 

 

well even though my original post wasn't directed at the hardocre gamers ... my response to your post would be. Screw em, tell them to go F themselves and to get a life. Hardcore gamers are a VERY small minority probably around the same numbers as the "permadeath" nutjobs.

point of the original post was that its stupid that if you participate on a raid that more than likely  you will not get any rewards.

nomadian

Raiding isn't bad as an option, but I think they got it kind of wrong in a way. Raiding should yield raiding gear so that it doesn't devalue every other activity in the game. Also, its about time there should be some sort of raiding xp bar which yields raiding abilities. Now that I think could be good and make people want to raid for more than gear.

Anyway, as alternatives to raiding there are probably quite a few. Ones specifically, alternate advancement- EQ. And Pvp has a WEALTH of potential for longetivity. See DAoC as just a start.

retrospectic

Originally posted by XApotheosisX

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by XApotheosisX


"I got an idea lets make content that takes 40+ people to work together for many hours to defeat. And when they do defeat it lets have the monster drop 2-5 pieces of loot, so that 90%+ of the people don't get any reward at all .... well call it a raid!"
 

Please give me a better solution for "hardcore" gamers as a way to increase replay value.  Leveling, factions, quests, and tradeskills eventually get maxxed out.  What's next?  PvP? 

 

well even though my original post wasn't directed at the hardocre gamers ... my response to your post would be. Screw em, tell them to go F themselves and to get a life. Hardcore gamers are a VERY small minority probably around the same numbers as the "permadeath" nutjobs.

point of the original post was that its stupid that if you participate on a raid that more than likely  you will not get any rewards.

Most raiders are considered hardcore gamers.  If you attack raiding you are therefore talking about the content that hardcore gamers are after.  Also, a "small minority" off 8million subs in WoW's case is still a lot of players.  Considering you are 1 person griping about 40 people enjoying themselves.  You sound like the minority.

The reason raids exist in the way they do is because monsters who dropped every piece of loot for every player would be run once and forgotten.  The reason that loot is short is because players eat up content slower when drops are sparse.  People would whine if they ate up content by running a raid zone ONE time and collecting everything they needed.

 

retrospectic

Also, with the new content 10 and 20 man raids offer more reward vs. risk for raid dungeons.  The amount of loot that drops is spread among 10 and 20 people rather than 40.

 

Also, for your reference, in EverQuest a 70man raid would sometimes get 1 piece of raid loot.  WoW is a lot more raider friendly than other games.

Knightblast

The basic problem is that it is hard to design content (non-raiding content) that keeps players occupied and suscribed for months and months on end ... unless you have a design which has very slow leveling, which in itself is undesirable to many gamers.  So once people are leveled, they need something to do, and typically they want that something to be challenging (at least the first couple of times) and many of them want it to be time-consuming as well so that they can put some distance between themselves and the casual peon underlings whom they despise.  Hence raiding.

retrospectic

Again, I would really like to know a solution rather than telling people to find another hobby.  The idea of a company making a game is to get subscribers.  Blizzard is never going to tell off a whole percentage of their players. 

The game has the most benefits of any MMO out there.  You can grind solo from 1 - 70 without ever stepping foot in a dungeon if you'd like, and likewise you can level from 1 - 70 only in dungeons.  You can craft gear, or hunt for gear (and now quests are a big way to get good stuff).

 

I could keep going, or did you just want to complain?

retrospectic

Originally posted by Novaseeker

The basic problem is that it is hard to design content (non-raiding content) that keeps players occupied and suscribed for months and months on end ... unless you have a design which has very slow leveling, which in itself is undesirable to many gamers.  So once people are leveled, they need something to do, and typically they want that something to be challenging (at least the first couple of times) and many of them want it to be time-consuming as well so that they can put some distance between themselves and the casual peon underlings whom they despise.  Hence raiding.

Right, the part that really gets to me is that people complain about some raids (Molten Core is a big one), yet they are constantly after a challenge because 60  (and now 70) is boring if you don't have anything to challenge you.

In all honesty I think WoW makes spoiled brats out of a lot of gamers.  The game makes leveling, tradeskills, and faction grinds cake, and players get to gripe about content they eat up at lightning speed.

Try EQ, UO, or any other game before WoW.  The ability to work to max level is those games was a big undertaking.  Some gamers never got to max in any of them, no where near a place to say "Man, such and such is so boring, eh"

COAgamer

Whats so wrong with PvP being end game rather then raiding? I mean what if a WoW guild suddenly deciding to do something fun like actully craft some war and go attack Stormwind or Orgremir? (sp)

retrospectic

Originally posted by COAgamer

Whats so wrong with PvP being end game rather then raiding? I mean what if a WoW guild suddenly deciding to do something fun like actully craft some war and go attack Stormwind or Orgremir? (sp)

Occasionally players form raids and attack the major cities.  When a major faction leader is killed I believe the whole city recieves a debuff, and the faction leader stays despawned for a long while.  The reason this isn't popular is because World PvP offers little to no benefit.  There is no "world pvp loots", and so players will not devote any time to it.

Risk vs. Reward is a big part, and PvP outside of BattleGrounds has no Reward and a lot of Risk.

mbblade

WOW your are INSANELY new player if you think raiding is stupid and snew or something

retrospectic

Originally posted by mbblade


WOW your are INSANELY new player if you think raiding is stupid and snew or something

Check his other posts.

retrospectic

Usual WoW bashing from a level 20 perspective.  It really erks me, actually.

Shijuki

Raiding isnt the only way to get loot. Theres plenty of guilds that focus mainly on pvp and aim for the pvp rewards which is a lot easier now to obtain. I dont understand people complaining about raiding, I mean if you dont like it, dont do it simple as that.

Briansho

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by COAgamer

Whats so wrong with PvP being end game rather then raiding? I mean what if a WoW guild suddenly deciding to do something fun like actully craft some war and go attack Stormwind or Orgremir? (sp)

Occasionally players form raids and attack the major cities.  When a major faction leader is killed I believe the whole city recieves a debuff, and the faction leader stays despawned for a long while.  The reason this isn't popular is because World PvP offers little to no benefit.  There is no "world pvp loots", and so players will not devote any time to it.

Risk vs. Reward is a big part, and PvP outside of BattleGrounds has no Reward and a lot of Risk.

I agree, being corpse camped by 6 people 30+ levels higher than you for 2 hours is risky and gets annoying after  a while.

Aison2

WOW your are INSANELY new player if you think raiding is stupid and snew or something



guess what im playing mmorpgs over 6 years and i think he is right



if you forget  the few people who claim to have some fun by raiding over and over

raiding is actually stupid



you do the same instance over and over like a robot and the bigger one take also half a day (real time)

there are tons of guilts who do this on a daily basis

just to get a bit better gear that mainly gives you some advantage in pvp which actually

again gets you no major benefits if you win



i mean i spoke with a lot of people who do this and all they talk about is oh if i do this

lets say 3-4 times i will definetly get my piece (1 of eight for full gear...)

wow so what?

real pvp-player will still own them couse of their experience



i like to do a instance once couse of the exploration factor

but doing it over and over for a chance to get some crappy items

makes me wanna vomit

its just no fun for me if there is nothing new in it



anyway if its fun for you just do

im not trying to tell people what they should do



just my opinion feel free to flame if you feel offended

MLecl0001

Oh I dunno, instead of having the playerbase run the same thing over and over again because they need gear, you make the game fun.  Oh damn there I go again using the word fun in the context of an MMO, I am sorry all MMOs are supposed to be work, my bad. 



That is how Blizzard Devs think, I read an article on one of their devs who talked about the end game design in WoW.  He used all sorts of words like work, achievments, goals, etc...  Yet not once in that page long article did he mention the word fun, maybe its just me but I find that a bit odd. 

Aison2

its the sad standard

they dont want to entertain you they want to keep you playing and therefore paying the monthly fee

creating new stuff takes a lot more time than the hardcore gamers need to rush trough it

so they need to build huge timesinks to let them stay



huge timesink ~ mostly work = no fun



there you go

kashaun

I would rather not limit myself to debating between raiding, slow leveling, and so on. Why accept things as they are? I'm not currently playing anymore mmorpgs because I have been limited to choosing between those same old crutches. I would gladly pay each month if I could fight in game battles or take part in politics that gained more then loot or items. These are massive multiplayer games, there needs to be some massive activity, it's what the monthly fees are for.

I see most games now that might offer one or two new things or a couple of distinct features, but none of it ties the game together. They end up being a string of single player or tournament type games. Raiding should be just that, raiding, taking from others. Territory, goods, etc. Players actions should effect the game world, and though many people might complain and feel intruded upon, oh well. I see no reason why games cannot be designed to make content player created and have a lasting effect.

JackDonkey

10Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by XApotheosisX


"I got an idea lets make content that takes 40+ people to work together for many hours to defeat. And when they do defeat it lets have the monster drop 2-5 pieces of loot, so that 90%+ of the people don't get any reward at all .... well call it a raid!"
 

Please give me a better solution for "hardcore" gamers as a way to increase replay value.  Leveling, factions, quests, and tradeskills eventually get maxxed out.  What's next?  PvP?  100 different and unique dungeons

MMORPDEATH

The mindset going into designing ane playing raids needs to be more about slaying the dragon than phinding phat l00t.

Phatty001

Raiding itself isn't a bad thing, It  all depends on the game. The game companies make raiding bad, not the concept. I had a great time raiding TG in DAoC when SI was released., we could do it with 16 peeps or 160 peeps and 80% of the time every person on the raid left with some loot.



Your don't like WoW's raiding, raiding as a concept changes from game to game. WoW has given raiding a bad rep and I'm sick of it. 

nervi

I heavily raided in EQ a lot.

Raiding as it was for my guild and the 2 other guilds that later on raided as 1 raid group nonstop with shared dkp etc.

 

RAIDING: working together as close TEAM, develop tactics together, share the items in such a way, that the whole team benifits from them (so alts were not getting loot and there were some social rules as well), keep trying raid content together, plan how to advance through the content, what loot items is first needed before trying the next puzzle.

Every target was like a puzzle, it failed often several times, before we had the tactics developed and how to do it together.

We had to find out how to communicate, what to do in what order, what all the different classes should do on what moment.

And that was TONS of fun, developing the tactics, try to think as group, how to overcome the problems, try to do difficult content, even when the numbers of players were sometimes not big.

 

Yes, we didnt copy tactics from other guilds or sites, we developed our own from scratch, even if that means, we had a lot of wipes and sometimes it took a while, before we could advance.  Loot were just a minor part of raiding.

Solving the puzzles as team was the reason for raiding.

 

And in that way, there is really no substitute for game fun, then such pure raiding.

But lets face it, most of the "raiding" going on nowadays, especially in wow, is pure about getting items and is quite often about copying already known tactics.

 

PS: i played Rites of Passage mud long ago, in that game you had 2 sides fighting eachother and the raiding there was about PVPing and killing and looting items from the other side. If you were killed and looted, you lost like 12 a 16 items, which could have taken you several months of trading/fighting against monsters. That was also pure raiding, but in another meaning.

 

heartless

Originally posted by MLecl0001

Oh I dunno, instead of having the playerbase run the same thing over and over again because they need gear, you make the game fun.  Oh damn there I go again using the word fun in the context of an MMO, I am sorry all MMOs are supposed to be work, my bad. 



That is how Blizzard Devs think, I read an article on one of their devs who talked about the end game design in WoW.  He used all sorts of words like work, achievments, goals, etc...  Yet not once in that page long article did he mention the word fun, maybe its just me but I find that a bit odd. 

 

That's because their two lead developers are old EQ fanatics. Thus it is no surprise to me that the game would focus greatly on hardcore raiding after claiming to be a casual game.

Personally, I never got what the big idea about raids is. Maybe because I never really played EQ as I spent most of my time playing UO which did not have PvE raids. I just don't see how raids can be the only answer to the end game.