I don't care WHAT that guy found. What he did to gain that info was illegal and immoral in the highest order and IMHO totally disqualifies his credibility as a witness. For all we know, he could be pulling that stuff out of his ass. Besides, if I am properly informed, evidence gained in such a manner would be thrown out of any court.
Let me get this straight - because this uptopian sit-com inspired morality is just unbelievable to me...
If I commit a crime, and the evidence to that crime is gathered improperly, then I am not guilty of that crime.
Ok - time for the ER and CSI kiddies to gather around. It's true, In a court of law I am not guilty of that crime... but, if I did the crime, even if the court of law found me not guilty of it, I'm still guilty of it. <GASP>
If a mailman goes on a rampage and kills 50 people, but an incompotent cop doesn't collect the information correctly, it doesn't absolve the cop of guilt for god sakes. He still killed the damned people. HELLO?
I'm not a judge, and I don't pretend to be. This isn't a court of law, it is a board where you post your opinion about games for chrissake. I don't give two rats asses where the proof is coming from. If the proof is there I will consider it. Part of that is considering the source, granted, but weigh that source against the other source - CCP - who has a company have a HUGE investment in making sure people don't think badly of their game. ALL SOURCES ARE BIASED. You have to read between the lines....
These canned pseudo-intellectual answers people spew off just really get to me sometime.
I don't care WHAT that guy found. What he did to gain that info was illegal and immoral in the highest order and IMHO totally disqualifies his credibility as a witness. For all we know, he could be pulling that stuff out of his ass. Besides, if I am properly informed, evidence gained in such a manner would be thrown out of any court.
Except that the misdeeds he uncovered have been ADMITTED to by CCP employees.
And this ISN'T a court of law. It's the court of public opinion; standards are lower here.
The fact of the matter is, if Kugutsumen hadn't used his "illegal and immoral" means to gain this info, no one would ever have known about it, CCP would never have admitted to any of it, and it would still be going on today. This is the crux of the problem with CCP, and the reason they do not deserve your business.
Yes, they admitted to an extent, IMHO admitted and apologized to my satisfaction. I haven't taken the time to read his site (nor do I want to), but as I understand, the hacker alledges more that what CCP admits to.
I will choose how I spend my money, and it is more than my forgiveness of CCP that compels me to stay, it's the whole package of experience in that game. Also, I honestly think, from experiences that I have read, people as a whole could probably benefit from considering facts with the same rigor as a court of law.
As far as your final point. Yes, that is a fair assumption, but as the saying goes: "Two wrongs does not make a right." I am not one to believe in coincidences, his actions will help CCP tighten their ship. But he still bears the shame of his acts, and beyond the consequences he already reaped, he should be tossed away and forgotten.
Let me get this straight - because this uptopian sit-com inspired morality is just unbelievable to me... If I commit a crime, and the evidence to that crime is gathered improperly, then I am not guilty of that crime. Ok - time for the ER and CSI kiddies to gather around. It's true, In a court of law I am not guilty of that crime... but, if I did the crime, even if the court of law found me not guilty of it, I'm still guilty of it. <GASP> If a mailman goes on a rampage and kills 50 people, but an incompotent cop doesn't collect the information correctly, it doesn't absolve the cop of guilt for god sakes. He still killed the damned people. HELLO? I'm not a judge, and I don't pretend to be. This isn't a court of law, it is a board where you post your opinion about games for chrissake. I don't give two rats asses where the proof is coming from. If the proof is there I will consider it. Part of that is considering the source, granted, but weigh that source against the other source - CCP - who has a company have a HUGE investment in making sure people don't think badly of their game. ALL SOURCES ARE BIASED. You have to read between the lines.... These canned pseudo-intellectual answers people spew off just really get to me sometime. Sheesh...
Heh, I would hardly say my morals are sitcom inspired.
Let me be more precise here. All those statments you put forward, yes, in the eyes of God those men are guilty. We would be in agreement there.
You are also free to take what proof as you see it. Your hacker source might even be right, I certainly cannot tell one way or the other, since his primary source is the BOB forums (as I have heard). In order to prove it true there would have to be an independent source gathering from those forums to cooraborate his claims.
As I said before, I believe we can all benefit from putting more rigorous standards of proof in a medium where a person could claim anything in writing. Whether or not this is a " board where you post your opinion about games."
I admit, I am probably a bit biased, both in my love for EVE and my repulsion on the actions of that hacker. You speak of the bias CCP might have. Yes, they do have a vested interest in the PR ramnifications of this occurance, but the difference is CCP has a right to consider that, they are not breaking any laws in that interest. Unlike your hacker, who did quite the opposite when he broke into BOB's forums.
Heh, I would hardly say my morals are sitcom inspired. Let me be more precise here. All those statments you put forward, yes, in the eyes of God those men are guilty. We would be in agreement there. You are also free to take what proof as you see it. Your hacker source might even be right, I certainly cannot tell one way or the other, since his primary source is the BOB forums (as I have heard). In order to prove it true there would have to be an independent source gathering from those forums to cooraborate his claims. As I said before, I believe we can all benefit from putting more rigorous standards of proof in a medium where a person could claim anything in writing. Whether or not this is a " board where you post your opinion about games for chrissake." I admit, I am probably a bit biased, both in my love for EVE and my repulsion on the actions of that hacker. You speak of the bias CCP might have. Yes, they do have a vested interest in the PR ramnifications of this occurance, but the difference is CCP has a right to consider that, they are not breaking any laws in that interest. Unlike your hacker, who did quite the opposite when he broke into BOB's forums.
Ok cool - now that we are on the same page...
I don't care if a court of law would find CCP guilty of anything. You know why? Because CCP could, if they choose, start a corporation in game called "CCP" and have it only populated by Devs, run around griefing everyone in Polaris frigates, and post on CAOD that we all sucked and laugh at us... and guess what, they aren't guilty in a court of law of a damn thing.
The thing that CCP is guilty of is about integrity, not law. You will notice that countries don't punish a persons integrity, they punish a persons actions. That's because integrity is something that is much deeper, much more invovled, much less provable, and likeise (unfortunately) much more important.
Now don't get me wrong, if someone is informed, and decides that he/she wants to continue playing the game then more power to you. In fact I envy you. I would love to be able to turn off my suspicions and log in like i did 2 weeks ago. I would join the war on Bob, fly out there, and start blowing shit up. The thing is I can't now - because I have reached the point where there is too much suspicion... before when I died I thought "damn, ah well, that guy got the better of me fair and square." Now when I get blown up I will think, "did that guy just own me because he had extra ISK so he could afford some faction whatevers?"
Along a long enough timeline of accusations and allegations everyone will reach this point. We all know that nothing is provable because CCP has the only proof, but given enough allegations even the biggest fanbois will start questioning... I personally have reached the point where I am convinced more is going on here that gives people an unfair advantage. You have not. I respect that, and I hope that respect is returned. As long as we both have access to the same information, and we are both informed then good on us - that's the nature of individuality. Until CCP posts a dev blog that says "HAHAHA - WE GOT YOU! WE ARE THE CHEATZORS!" neither of us can be proven. No evidence either way can be substantiated 100%.... but then again, very few things in life can be substantiated 100%. You gotta way the accusations with your gut.
My gut tells me this is something awful.
So I'm here not trying to convince you to move on from EvE - I am here to make sure that you and I both have the same information to base our decision on. The only reason I am really posting at this point is because I feel a bit like I was played for a fool by CCP, and I want to give you the opportunity to weigh the evidence and come up with your own conclusion. Part of me I admit hopes that someone throws some substantial evidence back that calms all my doubts - but just like no one can prove the allegations are correct, no one can prove they are false.
If after considering the growing web of accusations you still enjoy the game - good on you. I think over the next weeks you will see more allegations.. and of course unless CCP confesses none of them will be accompanied with time stamped logs and smoking gun evidence. Very little in this world is. Just keep informed from all angles and communicate them to people. Communication is our only real weapon... and inspite of their recent squelching actions CCP can't take that away from us.
Until CCP makes it mandatory for all employees playing the game to refrain from joining any large alliance, any so called enforcement on anyones part will continue to remain a joke.
Anyone claiming BOB has not had inside information is going to be laughed out of the forums. That is the serious issue here, info passed by devs to others in the game, explain to me how that can be controlled? It basically cannot be.
And the favoritism CCP continues to show BOB lately just cements the fact that you just have a bark with no bite.
We'd all love an explanation how bannable posts by several high level BOB players were conviently erased and now are denied they ever existed. No action was take by CCP, none. I read one of the them and my brother another, so I know for a fact at least two of those posts existed.
So you can spout all the hot air you like, we know for a fact that you have no fangs.
Originally posted by Ciredric Until CCP makes it mandatory for all employees playing the game to refrain from joining any large alliance, any so called enforcement on anyones part will continue to remain a joke.
I would like to understand exactly why that is a "joke" as you have put it. The most intense gameply of EVE, where the nature of the game and it's items can truely be tested is in the 0.0 alliances. To ban devs from discreetly playing in those alliances removes a sizable tool for them to understand and modify if neccessary the rules of the game.
Enforcement IS possible, there are always means to accomplish something.
Anyone claiming BOB has not had inside information is going to be laughed out of the forums. That is the serious issue here, info passed by devs to others in the game, explain to me how that can be controlled? It basically cannot be.
Public opinion does not equal a fact sir. It is that simple. And there are a few ways to control or at least monitor communication. Making use of chat logs and recording of voice chats. I am not a experienced programmer, but that seems quite possible.
And the favoritism CCP continues to show BOB lately just cements the fact that you just have a bark with no bite. We'd all love an explanation how bannable posts by several high level BOB players were conviently erased and now are denied they ever existed. No action was take by CCP, none. I read one of the them and my brother another, so I know for a fact at least two of those posts existed. So you can spout all the hot air you like, we know for a fact that you have no fangs.
I will concede that Sirmolle did something wrong, and he should be punished, but I think suspension is more fit for the crime here. From what I understand, the hacker was first in posting personal information, so Sirmolle's response could be argued to be an act of passion rather than premeditation, in real life crimes, such differences do warrant different punishments.
Comments
Let me get this straight - because this uptopian sit-com inspired morality is just unbelievable to me...
If I commit a crime, and the evidence to that crime is gathered improperly, then I am not guilty of that crime.
Ok - time for the ER and CSI kiddies to gather around. It's true, In a court of law I am not guilty of that crime... but, if I did the crime, even if the court of law found me not guilty of it, I'm still guilty of it. <GASP>
If a mailman goes on a rampage and kills 50 people, but an incompotent cop doesn't collect the information correctly, it doesn't absolve the cop of guilt for god sakes. He still killed the damned people. HELLO?
I'm not a judge, and I don't pretend to be. This isn't a court of law, it is a board where you post your opinion about games for chrissake. I don't give two rats asses where the proof is coming from. If the proof is there I will consider it. Part of that is considering the source, granted, but weigh that source against the other source - CCP - who has a company have a HUGE investment in making sure people don't think badly of their game. ALL SOURCES ARE BIASED. You have to read between the lines....
These canned pseudo-intellectual answers people spew off just really get to me sometime.
Sheesh...
Yes, they admitted to an extent, IMHO admitted and apologized to my satisfaction. I haven't taken the time to read his site (nor do I want to), but as I understand, the hacker alledges more that what CCP admits to.
I will choose how I spend my money, and it is more than my forgiveness of CCP that compels me to stay, it's the whole package of experience in that game. Also, I honestly think, from experiences that I have read, people as a whole could probably benefit from considering facts with the same rigor as a court of law.
As far as your final point. Yes, that is a fair assumption, but as the saying goes: "Two wrongs does not make a right." I am not one to believe in coincidences, his actions will help CCP tighten their ship. But he still bears the shame of his acts, and beyond the consequences he already reaped, he should be tossed away and forgotten.
Heh, I would hardly say my morals are sitcom inspired.
Let me be more precise here. All those statments you put forward, yes, in the eyes of God those men are guilty. We would be in agreement there.
You are also free to take what proof as you see it. Your hacker source might even be right, I certainly cannot tell one way or the other, since his primary source is the BOB forums (as I have heard). In order to prove it true there would have to be an independent source gathering from those forums to cooraborate his claims.
As I said before, I believe we can all benefit from putting more rigorous standards of proof in a medium where a person could claim anything in writing. Whether or not this is a " board where you post your opinion about games."
I admit, I am probably a bit biased, both in my love for EVE and my repulsion on the actions of that hacker. You speak of the bias CCP might have. Yes, they do have a vested interest in the PR ramnifications of this occurance, but the difference is CCP has a right to consider that, they are not breaking any laws in that interest. Unlike your hacker, who did quite the opposite when he broke into BOB's forums.
Ok cool - now that we are on the same page...
I don't care if a court of law would find CCP guilty of anything. You know why? Because CCP could, if they choose, start a corporation in game called "CCP" and have it only populated by Devs, run around griefing everyone in Polaris frigates, and post on CAOD that we all sucked and laugh at us... and guess what, they aren't guilty in a court of law of a damn thing.
The thing that CCP is guilty of is about integrity, not law. You will notice that countries don't punish a persons integrity, they punish a persons actions. That's because integrity is something that is much deeper, much more invovled, much less provable, and likeise (unfortunately) much more important.
Now don't get me wrong, if someone is informed, and decides that he/she wants to continue playing the game then more power to you. In fact I envy you. I would love to be able to turn off my suspicions and log in like i did 2 weeks ago. I would join the war on Bob, fly out there, and start blowing shit up. The thing is I can't now - because I have reached the point where there is too much suspicion... before when I died I thought "damn, ah well, that guy got the better of me fair and square." Now when I get blown up I will think, "did that guy just own me because he had extra ISK so he could afford some faction whatevers?"
Along a long enough timeline of accusations and allegations everyone will reach this point. We all know that nothing is provable because CCP has the only proof, but given enough allegations even the biggest fanbois will start questioning... I personally have reached the point where I am convinced more is going on here that gives people an unfair advantage. You have not. I respect that, and I hope that respect is returned. As long as we both have access to the same information, and we are both informed then good on us - that's the nature of individuality. Until CCP posts a dev blog that says "HAHAHA - WE GOT YOU! WE ARE THE CHEATZORS!" neither of us can be proven. No evidence either way can be substantiated 100%.... but then again, very few things in life can be substantiated 100%. You gotta way the accusations with your gut.
My gut tells me this is something awful.
So I'm here not trying to convince you to move on from EvE - I am here to make sure that you and I both have the same information to base our decision on. The only reason I am really posting at this point is because I feel a bit like I was played for a fool by CCP, and I want to give you the opportunity to weigh the evidence and come up with your own conclusion. Part of me I admit hopes that someone throws some substantial evidence back that calms all my doubts - but just like no one can prove the allegations are correct, no one can prove they are false.
If after considering the growing web of accusations you still enjoy the game - good on you. I think over the next weeks you will see more allegations.. and of course unless CCP confesses none of them will be accompanied with time stamped logs and smoking gun evidence. Very little in this world is. Just keep informed from all angles and communicate them to people. Communication is our only real weapon... and inspite of their recent squelching actions CCP can't take that away from us.
Cheers.
Until CCP makes it mandatory for all employees playing the game to refrain from joining any large alliance, any so called enforcement on anyones part will continue to remain a joke.
Anyone claiming BOB has not had inside information is going to be laughed out of the forums. That is the serious issue here, info passed by devs to others in the game, explain to me how that can be controlled? It basically cannot be.
And the favoritism CCP continues to show BOB lately just cements the fact that you just have a bark with no bite.
We'd all love an explanation how bannable posts by several high level BOB players were conviently erased and now are denied they ever existed. No action was take by CCP, none. I read one of the them and my brother another, so I know for a fact at least two of those posts existed.
So you can spout all the hot air you like, we know for a fact that you have no fangs.
I would like to understand exactly why that is a "joke" as you have put it. The most intense gameply of EVE, where the nature of the game and it's items can truely be tested is in the 0.0 alliances. To ban devs from discreetly playing in those alliances removes a sizable tool for them to understand and modify if neccessary the rules of the game.
Enforcement IS possible, there are always means to accomplish something.
Public opinion does not equal a fact sir. It is that simple. And there are a few ways to control or at least monitor communication. Making use of chat logs and recording of voice chats. I am not a experienced programmer, but that seems quite possible.
I will concede that Sirmolle did something wrong, and he should be punished, but I think suspension is more fit for the crime here. From what I understand, the hacker was first in posting personal information, so Sirmolle's response could be argued to be an act of passion rather than premeditation, in real life crimes, such differences do warrant different punishments.