WASD or just click to move?

daemon

Only concern i got is the movement controls.

Most mmorpgs that look awesome and are developed in Asia focus on click2move controls.

Im sure some peeps love it or dont care much about it but I find WASD movement best suited for this.

SO anyone knows if this game will have the option to move through WASD? and not like L2 has or Archlord which are completely useless.

Jamaludin

WASD movement will be implemented in the future, but as it is right now it is not included its just point and click movement. It takes time to get used to cause I was used to WASD movement as well but it works well because of the RTS feel the game has when moving and having combat with your group.

daemon

So its same story as L2 and Archlord.

Will be implemented later... they did implement it but nobody uses it cause u can barely turn around ur char in 10 seconds. Engine restrictions bla bla damn too bad.

Jamaludin

Well I don't know if it will be that awkward I have played Lineage 2 myself and man that was hard moving around using the WASD, horrible! I Think when its implemented it will work a lot smoother because you can see that its more a labour of love, sweat and tears then a money maker, but well I cant be sure of course so who knows ? Maybe someone who is playing the 2.0 version somewhere in Asia could tell you more ?

CleffyII

Im not really too sure if WASD will be too hot in this game.  I mean NWN2 has WASD, but you end up zooming out to an isometric view and point and click.  Also it will mess up my hotkeying.  Remember those keys are all taken by many player hotkeys.

Jamaludin

That is another thing entirely I don't think it will be used, cause it will simply not work with controlling three characters. I know I wouldnt, maybe only for strolling through town or something, but I don't know if it would be worth it though.

Ralsar

CTL-Click and CTL-SHIFT-Click to kill all monsters in your path or pick up all items makes the click to move more palatable to me.  You can also SHIFT-Click to avoid clicking on NPCs if you just want to move.  It is still a crappy system when compared to WASD but it works well enough once you get used to it.

Gameloading

Umm..it is IMPOSSIBLE to use WASD in this game, the WASD keys are used for diffrent features, because of the MCC....its like saying "I want to play an RTS game with WASD movement"

CleffyII

Actually key movement can work.  Instead of WASD make it the arrows, and when you hold down ctrl you attack any monsters you run into; when you hold down shift/ctrl you pick up loot you run passed.

Also on Lineage 2 and Archlord.  It actually didn't have to be crap.  WASD has already been programmed into the engine; the only thing they had to do was stick it back into the striped down engine.  They were working with the Unreal 2 engine after all.  Infact it probably was more work to implement point and click then to keep WASD controls.

boommer99

GL, I don't want to fight you on this issue, I know we have been down that road already

However, I DO think WASD CAN work.  Keys 1-0 BARELY get used.  And SHIFT and CTRL 1-0 is not used at all.  I think WASD IS possible.

As for it being in the 'future'.  The NA/EU version is expected to have more UI options at launch.  I would not be shocked to see WASD in that.

Gameloading

It would make things unnecessary complicated and makes the game way to difficult to play if you take away the current setup, since so many keys are already added to the ctrls and shift keys.

Thachsanh

Have  you ever wonder why Baldur's gate, Neverwinters Night, Company of Heroes, and other squad based games either do not have WASD control at all or very very rarely used?



Why is it nobody complain that those games doesnt have WASD control? I would be so much better before you ask for something, do a little research on the game first. But I guess that's so much to ask.

daemon

Originally posted by Thachsanh

Have  you ever wonder why Baldur's gate, Neverwinters Night, Company of Heroes, and other squad based games either do not have WASD control at all or very very rarely used?



Why is it nobody complain that those games doesnt have WASD control? I would be so much better before you ask for something, do a little research on the game first. But I guess that's so much to ask.

Baldurs Gate was not a 3d game it was 2d. Nothing even remotely to do with GE. Never heard of Company of heroes and Neverwinter Nights sure it was 3d and it had the option to play online but it was a RPG.. altough i hated the controls and the camera movements so didnt bother to play it more then 2 hours. Still this is not a RPG its a MMORPG. Things are alot more different here.



I remember how annoying it was in Lineage2 and in Archlord to move around in a crowded place like a city or a battle. Getting stuck around others or buildings corners or damn trees. Pathfinding was always horrible done.

Why not give the players the option to move around from keys or from mouse depending on what they like?! really dont think thats hard to do for a serious company that wants to be competitive in the gaming market... we are in 2007 afterall. the damn mmorpg market is getting flooded the tehnology exists and control is important in such a game.



graphics, lore, control... key elements i would say.

Thachsanh

Originally posted by daemon

Originally posted by Thachsanh

Have  you ever wonder why Baldur's gate, Neverwinters Night, Company of Heroes, and other squad based games either do not have WASD control at all or very very rarely used?



Why is it nobody complain that those games doesnt have WASD control? I would be so much better before you ask for something, do a little research on the game first. But I guess that's so much to ask.

Baldurs Gate was not a 3d game it was 2d. Nothing even remotely to do with GE. Never heard of Company of heroes and Neverwinter Nights sure it was 3d and it had the option to play online but it was a RPG.. altough i hated the controls and the camera movements so didnt bother to play it more then 2 hours. Still this is not a RPG its a MMORPG. Things are alot more different here.



graphics, lore, control... key elements i would say.



Err, what's the different between RPG and MMORPG? MMORPG has more people in it while RPG you play alone? Of course you can play the game with WASD but in a squad based game like this, point - n - click works perfectly and actually works better than WASD. It has been for several decades now and noone complained.





Before you complain about the control, play the game first. Point-n-click works perfectly for this game and I think WASD will not improve one bit of game play experience if not making it harder. Remember, you are controlling a whole team, not just 1 character.

Rikimaru_X

Click to move but I must say for a game like this, it shouldn't bother you. I mean I don't like click and move much but loving it for this game.

Roin

WASD movement in GE, just sounds really retarded.  I've never understood why people complain about WASD or Click to Move.  Any gamer with even half a brain is equally adept at using both.  I guess some people just find it too complicated. *shrug*

LackeyZero

It should implement wasd if possible. It's about enjoyment, screw everything else...

Me and probably many others find it much easier to beable to move with wasd and rotate the camera with the mouse... It's just not possible to do point and click and rotate the screen at the same time.

And I prefer using 1 character at a time with the group option(F9) on. Not a big fan of too much macros nor point-click and sit and watch.

Gameloading

then click first and wait half a second to turn the camera. its not like you have to click every secon.

boommer99

Originally posted by Gameloading

then click first and wait half a second to turn the camera. its not like you have to click every secon.

You know GL... what I just can't understand is why you are so hell bent against this idea.  NO ONE is saying take away click to move and FORCE everyone into WASD.  But some of us are NOT comfortable with click to move and don't like to play games for it.  In my opinion, if it will help IMC and K2 sell games let them add that option, just don't FORCE me to use one.  And I am sorry, I now know I am not alone.  Click to move IS DEAD.  This game CAN function (rather smoothly I think) with WASD, so why not allow for that option?

Gameloading

Originally posted by boommer99

Originally posted by Gameloading

then click first and wait half a second to turn the camera. its not like you have to click every secon.

You know GL... what I just can't understand is why you are so hell bent against this idea.  NO ONE is saying take away click to move and FORCE everyone into WASD.  But some of us are NOT comfortable with click to move and don't like to play games for it.  In my opinion, if it will help IMC and K2 sell games let them add that option, just don't FORCE me to use one.  And I am sorry, I now know I am not alone.  Click to move IS DEAD.  This game CAN function (rather smoothly I think) with WASD, so why not allow for that option?

Click to move is dead? You might want to take that back, because the VAST MAJORITY of MMORPG's have Point & click movement. I'm not against the idea of implanting WASD movement, I merely get tired of constant whining about point & click movement. I have never heard anybody say "Oh, I'm not going to play Diablo 2 because it has point & click", or "I'm not going to play Baldurs gate because I can't use WASD movement". I swear, as soon as an MMORTS game comes out, the first topic will be "Well, this game better have WASD movement or else I'm not touching it". I mean seriously, get over it already. Its either point & click or WASD, not both. So far, every mmorpg that was based on Point & click had horrible WASD controls, and every WASD movement MMO has horrible point & click movement. This game is point & click, just get used to it already, Its not a FPS where twitch based gameplay is involved, it really isn't that hard. The game is heavily based on RTS games and point & click games. In fact, in the "In the making of" video it is told that Hakkyu kim was inspired by Starcraft, Diablo (and RTS and a Point & click RPG) and Ragnarok Online (which was also a point & click MMO). Granado Espada is a mix between MMORPG and RTS, and should be played as such, not as a FPS like game.

Neovile

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by boommer99

Originally posted by Gameloading

then click first and wait half a second to turn the camera. its not like you have to click every secon.

You know GL... what I just can't understand is why you are so hell bent against this idea.  NO ONE is saying take away click to move and FORCE everyone into WASD.  But some of us are NOT comfortable with click to move and don't like to play games for it.  In my opinion, if it will help IMC and K2 sell games let them add that option, just don't FORCE me to use one.  And I am sorry, I now know I am not alone.  Click to move IS DEAD.  This game CAN function (rather smoothly I think) with WASD, so why not allow for that option?

Click to move is dead? You might want to take that back, because the VAST MAJORITY of MMORPG's have Point & click movement. I'm not against the idea of implanting WASD movement, I merely get tired of constant whining about point & click movement. I have never heard anybody say "Oh, I'm not going to play Diablo 2 because it has point & click", or "I'm not going to play Baldurs gate because I can't use WASD movement". I swear, as soon as an MMORTS game comes out, the first topic will be "Well, this game better has WASD movement or else I'm not touching it". I mean seriously, get over it already. Its either point & click or WASD, not both. So far, every mmorpg that was based on Point & click had horrible WASD controls, and every WASD movement MMO has horrible point & click movement. This game is point & click, just get used to it already, Its not a FPS where twitch based gameplay is involved, it really isn't that hard. The game is heavily based on RTS games and point & click games. In fact, in the "In the making of" video it is told that Hakkyu kim was inspired by Starcraft, Diablo (and RTS and a Point & click RPG) and Ragnarok Online (which was also a point & click MMO). Granado Espada is a mix between MMORPG and RTS, and should be played as such, not as a FPS like game.

Not to sound picky... but Diablo 2 and Baldurs Gate are completely different types of games compared to Granado Espada. Diablo and Baldurs Gate are 2D, while Granado is 3D. That's what makes them easier to deal with as point and click compared to a 3D game in which your clicks could end up behind a hill, under a bridge, or where you didn't intend for them to be. I like to use WASD in a 3D MMO because it's easier not to end up in the wrong place. You have much more control of your character and don't have to worry about pathing issues. That's the difference in 2D and 3D: three dimensional terrain.

And, I'm not sure what games you've been playing recently, but a majority of the games I've tested (which is quite extensive) have been WASD (some with the option of point and click, such as WoW). Most of them, if not all of them, have WASD. And, most of them, if not all of them, have WASD as the standard form of movement.

Also, of course an MMORTS won't have WASD... it'll use the directional buttons like every other RTS ever made. You'd be stupid not to add in the norm. If I had to do everything with my mouse all the time, I'd go insane. Boommer has a point, if a game was completely point and click, and there wasn't a good reason for it, I would be very turned off (especially if WASD was a realistic possibility). I don't use point and click in WoW specifically for that reason even though it's there.

The reason Granado needs point and click is for single character control. You're not controlling one character, like in WoW. You're using multiple characters in which you want to set each up for maximum advantage. You don't want a fighter and two Musketeers to just charge into battle. You want to use the Fighter as a tank, so you send him in alone with the Musketeers hitting ranged.

I agree that Granado Espada needs point and click. I don't see any practical application for WASD unless you were to use the select-all movement style (and negate your ability to set up strategic positioning in battle). However, if you were only controlling one character (as I did to level up my Fighter), it might be a good posibility then. The overall gameplay just doesn't allow for this type of movement though.

The main thing that everyone needs to notice is: it's an RPG with RTS style. You have to mix both styles to have maximum efficiency in control. With a single character in a 3D game, in my opinion, WASD is simply easier to manage. This isn't the case for Granado, it's multiple characters in a 3D world in which you'd want solo-control for each character to maximize efficiency. Point and click is faster and easier to manage. It allows for the user to tell character one to run left, switch to the second character, give them a comand to attack something, and then switch to the third character and tell them to heal, instead of having to control the first character until they've reached their destination which, by that time, might have caused character two and three to die. It's just more efficient for this game.

Hope that didn't sound like I was trying to flame anyone... just stating my opinion. I think you both are correct in some things, and wrong in others. Point and click is very much alive in 2D games like Diablo and even some 3D games like WoW (where it's an alternative to WASD).  And, WASD is in most games recently, more-so than point and click (from my experience).  

I didn't get a chance to read the beginning of this thread, but, just thought I'd reply to what I saw.

boommer99

I WHOLELY disagree GL.  I know we have been here before... but it is still true.  Name 1 AAA 3rd gen MMO that uses Click to move as the SOLE movement style.  When I say click to move is dead, I think I need to be clear.  Sole click to move games are dead.  The modern gamer WANTS customization.  They WANT to be able to play their favorite game however they choose.  If YOU don't think click to move can work (and once again on every point I disagree) that is YOU.  There are MANY gamers out there who CAN make it work and work well.

You bring up it being impossible to control multiple characters.  I disagree.  Simply by using shift+click I should be able to select my characters and move on the fly.  Or allow me to assign what key I want to use to call up my characters indiviually (like the current F1-F3) or let me select all (F9).  I can see SOO many opportunites on making WASD work its insane.  And again, I DON'T SEE HOW ME WANTING WASD EFFECTS YOU AT ALL.

Thats the biggie for me.  If it will sell games why do you care if some idiot fumbles with WASD while you are clicking your way to 100?  For my personal set up click to move is HIGHLY annoying AND uncomfortable.  That doesn't mean I don't want you to have it.  Yet at every turn YOU don't want others to have WASD... flat out.  and that seems REALLY close-minded.

As for games that have done both.  You are wrong.  WoW has both, CoX has both, LotRO has both and ALL of these games do it WELL.  I am NOT saying to remove click to move... I am ONLY asking for an option.  You don't seem to be able to agree to at least that.

EDIT: Neovile - I read your post and I am really on your side.  I don't understand what the big deal is with including options.  But GL wants everyone to be forced to play like him.  And I disagree.

Gameloading

Originally posted by Neovile

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by boommer99

Originally posted by Gameloading

then click first and wait half a second to turn the camera. its not like you have to click every secon.

You know GL... what I just can't understand is why you are so hell bent against this idea.  NO ONE is saying take away click to move and FORCE everyone into WASD.  But some of us are NOT comfortable with click to move and don't like to play games for it.  In my opinion, if it will help IMC and K2 sell games let them add that option, just don't FORCE me to use one.  And I am sorry, I now know I am not alone.  Click to move IS DEAD.  This game CAN function (rather smoothly I think) with WASD, so why not allow for that option?

Click to move is dead? You might want to take that back, because the VAST MAJORITY of MMORPG's have Point & click movement. I'm not against the idea of implanting WASD movement, I merely get tired of constant whining about point & click movement. I have never heard anybody say "Oh, I'm not going to play Diablo 2 because it has point & click", or "I'm not going to play Baldurs gate because I can't use WASD movement". I swear, as soon as an MMORTS game comes out, the first topic will be "Well, this game better has WASD movement or else I'm not touching it". I mean seriously, get over it already. Its either point & click or WASD, not both. So far, every mmorpg that was based on Point & click had horrible WASD controls, and every WASD movement MMO has horrible point & click movement. This game is point & click, just get used to it already, Its not a FPS where twitch based gameplay is involved, it really isn't that hard. The game is heavily based on RTS games and point & click games. In fact, in the "In the making of" video it is told that Hakkyu kim was inspired by Starcraft, Diablo (and RTS and a Point & click RPG) and Ragnarok Online (which was also a point & click MMO). Granado Espada is a mix between MMORPG and RTS, and should be played as such, not as a FPS like game.

Not to sound picky... but Diablo 2 and Baldurs Gate are completely different types of games compared to Granado Espada. Diablo and Baldurs Gate are 2D, while Granado is 3D. That's what makes them easier to deal with as point and click compared to a 3D game in which your clicks could end up behind a hill, under a bridge, or where you didn't intend for them to be. I like to use WASD in a 3D MMO because it's easier not to end up in the wrong place. You have much more control of your character and don't have to worry about pathing issues. That's the difference in 2D and 3D: three dimensional terrain.

And, I'm not sure what games you've been playing recently, but a majority of the games I've tested (which is quite extensive) have been WASD (some with the option of point and click, such as WoW). Most of them, if not all of them, have WASD. And, most of them, if not all of them, have WASD as the standard form of movement.

Well naturaly they are diffrent because they are of a diffrent genre. Granado Espada may be a 3D game, it is intended to be played from a top down vieuw. when your playing with the camera above your characters,or diagonal, its very hard to make mistaks to get stuck under a bridge or behind something. There also aren't any pathin issue's in GE, because your character will automaticly climb stairs and move along objects without getting stuck behind anything.

Gameloading

Originally posted by boommer99


I WHOLELY disagree GL.  I know we have been here before... but it is still true.  Name 1 AAA 3rd gen MMO that uses Click to move as the SOLE movement style.  When I say click to move is dead, I think I need to be clear.  Sole click to move games are dead.  The modern gamer WANTS customization.  They WANT to be able to play their favorite game however they choose.  If YOU don't think click to move can work (and once again on every point I disagree) that is YOU.  There are MANY gamers out there who CAN make it work and work well.
Asking for a 3rd gen MMO is rediculous, the 3rd gen has only just started and I haven't had the time yet to play all 3rd gen asian MMORPG's yet. And by your defenition, WASD movement is dead as well because every WASD movement MMORPG also includes point & click MMORPG's.


You bring up it being impossible to control multiple characters.  I disagree.  Simply by using shift+click I should be able to select my characters and move on the fly.  Or allow me to assign what key I want to use to call up my characters indiviually (like the current F1-F3) or let me select all (F9).  I can see SOO many opportunites on making WASD work its insane.  And again, I DON'T SEE HOW ME WANTING WASD EFFECTS YOU AT ALL.
Those keys aren't the problem, the WASD keys are used for diffrent things.  the poster above you explained to you why WASD movement would be less effective in point and click in a game like Granado Espada. Technical speaking it does have an effect on me. WASD requires more server brandwith, which means more lag.


Thats the biggie for me.  If it will sell games why do you care if some idiot fumbles with WASD while you are clicking your way to 100?  For my personal set up click to move is HIGHLY annoying AND uncomfortable.  That doesn't mean I don't want you to have it.  Yet at every turn YOU don't want others to have WASD... flat out.  and that seems REALLY close-minded.
As for games that have done both.  You are wrong.  WoW has both, CoX has both, LotRO has both and ALL of these games do it WELL.  I am NOT saying to remove click to move... I am ONLY asking for an option.  You don't seem to be able to agree to at least that.
EDIT: Neovile - I read your post and I am really on your side.  I don't understand what the big deal is with including options.  But GL wants everyone to be forced to play like him.  And I disagree.
Okay seriously, either read my posts or be quiet, because I DO NOT apreciate you putting words in my mouth, I said that point & click is superior to WASD movement, I have never said "you can't have WASD movement".

boommer99

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by boommer99


 Technical speaking it does have an effect on me. WASD requires more server brandwith, which means more lag.

From our previous fight about this:

K2 network, Stop, Hold it.  Put the game down and walk away with your hands in the air, where I can see them. Do not add things to the game, do not change things to the game, and for the love of god, please do NOT revamp anything! Just translate and host, leave the content of the game to the real developers.

In 2 separate conversations you make it perfectly clear you DON'T want WASD because it will hinder YOUR gameplay (or so you say).

 

Once again I am done with this because you feel one thing and I know the truth.  So we are getting no where.  WASD hinders performance and should not be allowed in the game so no one will buy it (and we have had a NUMBER of players who have come here and no nothing about the game and said just that no WASD no buy).

Neovile

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by boommer99


I WHOLELY disagree GL.  I know we have been here before... but it is still true.  Name 1 AAA 3rd gen MMO that uses Click to move as the SOLE movement style.  When I say click to move is dead, I think I need to be clear.  Sole click to move games are dead.  The modern gamer WANTS customization.  They WANT to be able to play their favorite game however they choose.  If YOU don't think click to move can work (and once again on every point I disagree) that is YOU.  There are MANY gamers out there who CAN make it work and work well.
Asking for a 3rd gen MMO is rediculous, the 3rd gen has only just started and I haven't had the time yet to play all 3rd gen asian MMORPG's yet. And by your defenition, WASD movement is dead as well because every WASD movement MMORPG also includes point & click MMORPG's.


You bring up it being impossible to control multiple characters.  I disagree.  Simply by using shift+click I should be able to select my characters and move on the fly.  Or allow me to assign what key I want to use to call up my characters indiviually (like the current F1-F3) or let me select all (F9).  I can see SOO many opportunites on making WASD work its insane.  And again, I DON'T SEE HOW ME WANTING WASD EFFECTS YOU AT ALL.
Those keys aren't the problem, the WASD keys are used for diffrent things.  the poster above you explained to you why WASD movement would be less effective in point and click in a game like Granado Espada. Technical speaking it does have an effect on me. WASD requires more server brandwith, which means more lag.


Thats the biggie for me.  If it will sell games why do you care if some idiot fumbles with WASD while you are clicking your way to 100?  For my personal set up click to move is HIGHLY annoying AND uncomfortable.  That doesn't mean I don't want you to have it.  Yet at every turn YOU don't want others to have WASD... flat out.  and that seems REALLY close-minded.
As for games that have done both.  You are wrong.  WoW has both, CoX has both, LotRO has both and ALL of these games do it WELL.  I am NOT saying to remove click to move... I am ONLY asking for an option.  You don't seem to be able to agree to at least that.
EDIT: Neovile - I read your post and I am really on your side.  I don't understand what the big deal is with including options.  But GL wants everyone to be forced to play like him.  And I disagree.
Okay seriously, either read my posts or be quiet, because I DO NOT apreciate you putting words in my mouth, I said that point & click is superior to WASD movement, I have never said "you can't have WASD movement".

I'd just like to ask: what exactly is considered a 3rd gen. MMORPG? If there's a set definition somewhere, let me know...

You're right, in what Boommer said, WASD would also be considered dead (by his definition) in games that included both WASD and point and click. I, however, don't believe this is what he intended say. I believe he meant to say that, even in games that include both options, WASD is the standard device for movement and not point and click.

I would also like to point out that most games from Asia that have point and click, don't do it that well. Pathing issues are a huge problem amongst these games which is a definite turn off to many people.

Of course, hypothetically, even with perfect point and click and WASD in a game, there are people who would just rather choose one over another. It's a matter of personal choice and style. Boommer is definitely right here, I'd choose WASD over point and click any day if it were an option and it worked well. Granado, however, just functions better under point and click. That's just how it was designed to run.

WASD is unrealistic for this game for a few reasons. Unchangable key mapping is the first. WASD are already taken by character one and two's abilities. If this were changable later, I could see a possibility of the keys being used, but as an alternative, the arrow keys could possibly be used.

Even so, the second reason you'd still want point and click is for quick strategic positioning. Moving single characters with WASD limits you to moving a single character at a time to a position, severely limiting your actions. Now, if you did just want to move everyone at once, then I could see it being a possibility. I know that I play by moving all my characters at once and hardly ever break them up for strategic reasons (but then again, my character combination limits what I can do, I use three musketeers). CTRL+Directional Key could allow for the same action as CTRL+Click, but you'd have to hold it down the whole time you wanted to move which could be somewhat annoying for some people. It just seems like a very difficult setup to get working correctly.

In the issue of bandwidth, it depends on if the company programs it correctly. Sure, if they do a poor job, this can really effect server stability, however, if done correctly, this shouldn't be a huge issue. It also seems that the programmers for Granado have done a great job with pathing (which a lot of major companies still have problems with), so, I believe that they'd get this one right also. Just showing my faith in programmers.

GL and Boommer, you both have very valid points but you're arguing over an issue that should really not be there at all. Yes, in Boommer's defense, WASD is a preferred control option for a ton of people which would keep them from playing a game altogether. I vouch for that. And, he's even right in the sense that you should program to your customer's wishes. If not, you make a game that's unenjoyable for the target audience. That's definitely not what you want. GL, you're right in the sense that it would be very hard to program this into the game correctly. Many games that have both do one or the other (and possibly even both) wrong.

If we were to propose a plausible WASD or arrowed control, maybe we could suggest it to the programmers on the forums, that's what they're for after all.

Let's make that the goal from now on in this thread. Instead of fighting over if it should be added, let's find a way to add it correctly (even if they have their own method in the works). Let's suggest to them what we think it should work like. This way, both sides can work together instead of against each other which does nothing for anyone here anyway.

Can't we all just get along?