Why play any MMORPG's if one hates the huge grind? The entire point of any RPG is to level. In fact every game that is on this web site just about has a grind.
That's the best comment in the whole thread and no one's even acknowledged it. Funny how people in gamers forums always ignore (or worse, dispute) the comments that really make sense. The reason most of us don't acknowledge it, is because we already know it. Pointing out the obvious in mmo's is redundant , kind of like the grind
It really all depends on how you label grinding.
I think of grinding not as a repetitive task, but as a boring and horrible repetitive task. I think it is a matter of prospective.
Obviously, having logged thousands of hours on MMORPGs over the years, I've done my share of what I consider grinding. I've also played hundreds and hundreds of very enjoyable hours in repetitive tasks.
The difference is how much FUN one is having doing those actions.
Killing mob after mob with my head propped in one hand feeling like I'm being forced to read the Great Gatsby over and over is a grind. If I'm thinking about washing clothes while I'm supposed to be playing, that is a grind. If I don't WANT to play, but have to urge myself to achieve a goal, that is grinding. Grinding is like having a job for which you pay.
Conversely, getting in a good group in any mmorpg and ripping through some place like a well oiled machine is not grinding. Running romper-stomper through someplace and leaving a trail of dead mobs with good, fast, exciting gameplay edged with some RISK is not grinding. An adrenaline fueled razor-edged kiting session with 0 room for error (such as bard kiting on the floor in nightmare in EQ1) is not grinding. Having fun doing repetitive stuff that won't easily end until I want it to is getting what I pay for.
Both sets are repetitive tasks, but only one is not fun.
So: All grinding is a repetitive task. Not all repetitive tasks are grinding. No grind is fun. Some repetitive tasks are fun.
The goal of an MMORPG (to me) is to have fun. Therefore, the perfect MMORPG does not include grinding. It has to include repetitive tasks, otherwise it would be the ultimate treadmill. The idea is to make those tasks fun and different enough that it does not become grinding.
The time flies, the levels happen, and I am happy.
To others, in which the goal is to level, the difference between grinding and fun repetition is blurred or muted. They see all leveling activities as necessary work to achieve a goal, therefore it becomes work to be disposed of as quickly as possible.
If simply achieving the highest level was my goal, then it'd be most effective for me to just buy a max level character when one became available. Neither that nor grinding for me would be fun, so I'd come out ahead in time vs. money.
On the other hand, for the reasons I play, the achievement is secondary to the activity. I like exterminating mobs and developing and honing techniques and skills to do so. I like using my head to figure out the most efficient way to kill mobs and go places.
Quoted for emphasis, since the Vanboys around here seem to have overlooked it.
The OP offered up his own personal experiences with Vanguard. Just because his experiences are different from yours doesn't mean he's a n00b, or that he's lying. Those are HIS observations, and HIS experiences. He said so at the beginning.
Sheesh.
Anyone who uses the word "Vanboi" or "Vanboy" is in my opinion a namecalling little kid, unless you are joking.
To the O.P.: good luck in the next game you try. I for one believe that you did play it and those are your experiences, if perhaps a little exaggerated. But hey, why not. People on both sides tend to exaggerate at times. Best of luck to you. And have a beer on me.
Hmmm have to agree with the other posters... a lot of that is not what I have found. Diplomacy particularly is NOT easy... sure the first 20 missions while you are learning are designed to help you win so you get the feel of how the game works. But once you hit 40-50 you are basically going to spend most of your time engaging in discussions that are with NPC's at least 10-20 levels above you and anyone that finds that easy... FFS tell me your secret because I find it quite hard to win more than about 60% -75% of the time. In some cases you cant win, you have to just go away and build your skill a little more and maybe get a new card or two before you can even try to win certain conversations. I actually rate diplomacy as the most innovative addition to an MMO since treasure hunting in UO. I was lucky enough to be on a server the other day when a reasonably high level diplomat triggerd a city wide crafting buff and it was then I started to see the potential of diplomacy to affect the game in the months to come. If your only going to play the parts of the game that are basically identical to every other MMO then its kind of no surprise you werent thrilled. Crafting and Diplomacy are the two things that really seperate VG from other games.
Diplomacy is pointless because you can never rally lose : you just do it over and over again until you win.
Also to the OP don't post Vanguard reviews in a Vanguard forum because this game has fanbois like no other. Well it's close between EVE and this game.
That might be true at the low levels of diplomacy but when you get higher up and lose it could cost you your life if you dont have a group there to back you up lol
And am with the other posters i havent seen any of the bugs OP talks about and the one about respawns popping and killing him lol thats to funny i have to give my son heck all the time about been aware of where he fights things.if your standing in a spot you cleared a few minutes ago fighting its going to happen things are going to pop on you cause your not been smart . I never pull to a spot i just finished killing something in thats just common sence in a game with a death penalty
"if any MMO was a single player game, would you play it?" I'm not sure what you mean. Ill try to answer your question tho. If you're asking if i would play vanguard, eq2, wow on my own little server with no one else on, I would have to say no. Without other ppl playing the feeling of reward and excitment would feel lessened. I play mmoRPGs because there online and multiplayer, not because they have enjoyable gameplay.
Like I said, sorry for rushing, I had to get out the door for work.
Based on the rest of the threads replies, I don't think most of them "get" what an RPG is or the point I was making. Most of them appear to approve of "grinding levels" as RP. Thats just strange. Shoot me a PM if you would like to discuss it.
Sorry but that's obviously a fake review, 2 days and going from 1 to 24 without ever playing the game before like in the beta is a lie, and about diplomacy being a "baby play" how can u say that after 20 wins it's not rewarding when at that point i bet u didnt even get to the civic diplomacy, much less did u start to trade plots and rumors for equipement... i m glad people like you never played vanguard, it just makes me sad that they should think they have a right to lie.
"The overall experience is just irritating and not fun or challenging. It is very easy, but too aggravating for me to spend my time or money playing" Ok first you say its a major grind then you say its too easy? Yeah um I don't think you even played this game.
Why do people think that GRIND = HARD?
Just because it's hard on your life, doesn't mean a retarded 5 year old couldn't do it.
In terms of unoriginality ... It's amazing how my Rogue in VG plays EXACTLY like my Rogue in WoW...
In WoW:
- Stealth behind mob
- Ambush (250% + x damage, requires behind target and stealth)
- Sinister Strike (Weapon damage + x)
- Gouge (5.5 second stun)
- Get behind target
- Backstab (150% + x damage, requires behind target)
In VG:
- Sneak behind mob
- Pummel (?) (400% + x damage, requires behind target and stealth)
- Whatever the basic DPS move is called (Weapon damage + x)
- Blinding Flash (6 second stun)
- Get behind target
- Backstab (300% + x damage, requires behind target)
Wow... People say WoW gameplay is too easy but that looks pretty damn similar. Eh?
Hmm you are right. I never noticed that before. Seems Vanguard copied WoW's encounter mechanics. I mean Violin is an instrument , a thermometer is an instrument , thus a violin is a thermometer.
Diplomacy is pointless because you can never rally lose : you just do it over and over again until you win.
Also to the OP don't post Vanguard reviews in a Vanguard forum because this game has fanbois like no other. Well it's close between EVE and this game.
So in diplomacy you cannot loose because you can try again while in other games in everything you do and loose (ie battle , quest, kill named etc) you dont get another chance? You playing a permadeath game or something?
Seriously now, I begun reading this thread to get a feel of what people dont really like about this game , which i enjoy. Some of the things they post though make me wonder if they just having fun here posting idiotic comments or they really believe what they are writting. Which would be sad
To the original poster. I think the game is not for you Judging from you thinking that the community is made up of kids and asses. This is an online game, if the community doesnt suit you it doesnt matter how good or bad the game is , or how polished or buggy, it will never be for you. The same way that a buggy game can be really enjoyble with the right company to be fustrated with.
Everything else you write about just proves to me that this was definetely a wrong choice of a game for you. Some minor points to what you said so something good can be learned from your exp.
1. You are one unlucky man. I only have died twice from bugs. 1 from a adding the whole building where sakuraba spawns in blighted lands. Another lagging after changing chunks and mobs catching up with me.
2. Yap its a grind , especially if you dont like and do quests. It will take you more time to level in Vanguard, that means you need to kill more monsters , do more quests , explore and find more dungeons, and quest outposts etc. Thats part of its appeal. There is a huge variety of items, with different stats , and different graphics that you see on your avatar when eqquiped. You get more slots to sell things when you buy a house or buy a broker for your items. Sad you played the game so long and noone told you about it .
3. Have you tried buying a horse, and equiping it with the horshoes needed to increase its speed? (Of course that would contradict with items beeing worthless). Trainers can be found in cities, and EVERY quest outpost. Look around for a while ingame, you will find buildings, temples, military outposts where you get quests for the area you are currently. Sometimes they are near the ressurection point for that area. Again sad that noone told you about it in game and they let you call all the way back to your starting area, and then run all the way back to where you were questing. I am beggining to understand why you hated the community.
4. My bard has his buffs, his melee attacks , his melee defensives that can lead to powerfull attacks, his reactives, his magic attacks, his songbook where he mix and matches some of the 14-15 different effects (so far) to make songs that can be used depending on the situation ( for example i have a speed buff song, a melee dps song, a defensive song, a song that gives some dps and defense, a song for arcane defense, health regen song for after a fight etc etc). A pain to choose what to cast and when, and also a pain to choose whether to use a musical intrument , sacrificing my melee dps but making my songs 3 or 4 times better . My exp as you see its not very similar to your own.
5. Slower than some games, faster than others.
6. You are very justified to hate the community after everything they have done to you.
7. Here I agree with you, the game so far is way easy (for my taste). I hope it has more to do with classes being overpowered at start while they try to balance them. (Judging from dreaded LU13 in EQ2 its preferable to be overpowered and being nerfed , when in balance proccess, than underpowered and getting your ass handed to you from every single mob in the game).
As for not so many people being around, I have to agree. Havent seen too many 20+ chars yet. I mean 24 levels , on this game in less than 3 weeks is kind of a lot if you ask me.
Again I am not saying people have to love or like this game. Just sharing some info from my perspective. Be nice and always bring an umbrella whne traveling to Tanvu.
Quoted for emphasis, since the Vanboys around here seem to have overlooked it.
The OP offered up his own personal experiences with Vanguard. Just because his experiences are different from yours doesn't mean he's a n00b, or that he's lying. Those are HIS observations, and HIS experiences. He said so at the beginning.
Sheesh.
Anyone who uses the word "Vanboi" or "Vanboy" is in my opinion a namecalling little kid, unless you are joking.
Sensitive much? It's a convenient term, since it's faster than typing out "Vanguard fanboy" every time.
That some people around here can't handle the word isn't my problem. I use it because I can, and because it saves time when I'm typing.
I thought diplomacy was kind cool , but again , after the 30th encounter, it loses it luster, for me . What I truly thought Vangaurd was , was a game that created huge epic quests that could last you thru a month+ , that put to use all of the parts of the game into one seemingless encounter from the moment you log in at level 1. That is what I was expecting. So you would find a beginner quest that took you through every element of the game from diplomacy , crafting , using your skills ect. Then in later quests maybe by lvl 15 or 20 (which I reached) you would be on one epic journey the lasted months on end taking you to see various npcs and maybe even save someone. Just didn't get that in feeling in beta.
If that had happened I'd be there playing right now and would have been irrevocably hooked. I'd have lived with everything else.
Sigil put way to much of the burden on the player to create thier own epic adventure , and it just doesn't work because today's life style and human have less imagination, do to all of the games that have already come out between the eq1 to now. People want to be directed in a game to ease their mind from real life, The less they have to really think , the more they enjoy themselves, and that is what video games are and the is why video games can be fun. Sounds silly , less thought = more fun, but it is the way the society is now.
I don't think lack of imagination is the key. I think people expect to be entertained when they pay for a game every month. I can entertain myself easily for free. I want something more than that.
I like to think during games sometimes, but sometimes I just want to unwind. That's part of being an adult vs being a kid. As a kid, I was ready for some serious conflict because I didn't have to worry about anything.
I'm an adult and my life already has built in grief, stress, and pvping (if only political / social in the workplace). I don't want stress when I play sometimes. Sometimes I still do.
Sometimes what I want is accomplishment inside a decent time frame. Life doesn't work that way, as you probably know, so a sense of accomplishment goes a long way toward easing the drudgery of everyday life.
I think what Sigil tried to do first was create a game that catered to the 'hardcore' adventurer and found that there weren't enough of them to be profitable. So they expanded the scope. It is a business after all, Sigil doesn't care if you ever have fun, they only care if you spend money. (Note, this is not a Sigil-bash. Virtually all game companies have profit first. It is a business.)
In attempting to get all the marbles, they wound up with Vanguard and rushed it out the door early and crippled.
I don't think Vanguard is doomed, but I won't be playing it. *shrug*
It seems like there is a strong argument that it is not of merchandisable quality. Go for a refund and if they wont play ball do a credit card chargeback.
Comments
It really all depends on how you label grinding.
I think of grinding not as a repetitive task, but as a boring and horrible repetitive task. I think it is a matter of prospective.
Obviously, having logged thousands of hours on MMORPGs over the years, I've done my share of what I consider grinding. I've also played hundreds and hundreds of very enjoyable hours in repetitive tasks.
The difference is how much FUN one is having doing those actions.
Killing mob after mob with my head propped in one hand feeling like I'm being forced to read the Great Gatsby over and over is a grind. If I'm thinking about washing clothes while I'm supposed to be playing, that is a grind. If I don't WANT to play, but have to urge myself to achieve a goal, that is grinding. Grinding is like having a job for which you pay.
Conversely, getting in a good group in any mmorpg and ripping through some place like a well oiled machine is not grinding. Running romper-stomper through someplace and leaving a trail of dead mobs with good, fast, exciting gameplay edged with some RISK is not grinding. An adrenaline fueled razor-edged kiting session with 0 room for error (such as bard kiting on the floor in nightmare in EQ1) is not grinding. Having fun doing repetitive stuff that won't easily end until I want it to is getting what I pay for.
Both sets are repetitive tasks, but only one is not fun.
So: All grinding is a repetitive task. Not all repetitive tasks are grinding. No grind is fun. Some repetitive tasks are fun.
The goal of an MMORPG (to me) is to have fun. Therefore, the perfect MMORPG does not include grinding. It has to include repetitive tasks, otherwise it would be the ultimate treadmill. The idea is to make those tasks fun and different enough that it does not become grinding.
The time flies, the levels happen, and I am happy.
To others, in which the goal is to level, the difference between grinding and fun repetition is blurred or muted. They see all leveling activities as necessary work to achieve a goal, therefore it becomes work to be disposed of as quickly as possible.
If simply achieving the highest level was my goal, then it'd be most effective for me to just buy a max level character when one became available. Neither that nor grinding for me would be fun, so I'd come out ahead in time vs. money.
On the other hand, for the reasons I play, the achievement is secondary to the activity. I like exterminating mobs and developing and honing techniques and skills to do so. I like using my head to figure out the most efficient way to kill mobs and go places.
The answer is not so obvious as it appears to be.
Anyone who uses the word "Vanboi" or "Vanboy" is in my opinion a namecalling little kid, unless you are joking.
To the O.P.: good luck in the next game you try. I for one believe that you did play it and those are your experiences, if perhaps a little exaggerated. But hey, why not. People on both sides tend to exaggerate at times. Best of luck to you. And have a beer on me.
Diplomacy is pointless because you can never rally lose : you just do it over and over again until you win.
Also to the OP don't post Vanguard reviews in a Vanguard forum because this game has fanbois like no other. Well it's close between EVE and this game.
That might be true at the low levels of diplomacy but when you get higher up and lose it could cost you your life if you dont have a group there to back you up lol
And am with the other posters i havent seen any of the bugs OP talks about and the one about respawns popping and killing him lol thats to funny i have to give my son heck all the time about been aware of where he fights things.if your standing in a spot you cleared a few minutes ago fighting its going to happen things are going to pop on you cause your not been smart . I never pull to a spot i just finished killing something in thats just common sence in a game with a death penalty
Like I said, sorry for rushing, I had to get out the door for work.
Based on the rest of the threads replies, I don't think most of them "get" what an RPG is or the point I was making. Most of them appear to approve of "grinding levels" as RP. Thats just strange. Shoot me a PM if you would like to discuss it.
I find much of what the OP said true and the crafting in my opinion may be "in depth" but it's an over the top time consuming grind.
Sorry but to me it is nothing revolutionary and it has more time-sinks than I want to handle.
I'm trying to like this game but it's an investment in time. Time that I think I would rather spend elsewhere.
Why do people think that GRIND = HARD?
Just because it's hard on your life, doesn't mean a retarded 5 year old couldn't do it.
In terms of unoriginality ... It's amazing how my Rogue in VG plays EXACTLY like my Rogue in WoW...
In WoW:
- Stealth behind mob
- Ambush (250% + x damage, requires behind target and stealth)
- Sinister Strike (Weapon damage + x)
- Gouge (5.5 second stun)
- Get behind target
- Backstab (150% + x damage, requires behind target)
In VG:
- Sneak behind mob
- Pummel (?) (400% + x damage, requires behind target and stealth)
- Whatever the basic DPS move is called (Weapon damage + x)
- Blinding Flash (6 second stun)
- Get behind target
- Backstab (300% + x damage, requires behind target)
Wow... People say WoW gameplay is too easy but that looks pretty damn similar. Eh?
Hmm you are right. I never noticed that before. Seems Vanguard copied WoW's encounter mechanics. I mean Violin is an instrument , a thermometer is an instrument , thus a violin is a thermometer.
Yes, he didnt play the game.
But yet somehow he explains with painstaking accuracy every bug and glitch fanboys work so hard to hide.
Than dear OP , i commend your clairvoyance!
Anyways thanks for great review.
I just wait for first month to end , and see how people will whine
when the server population drop like a rock ...
To bad Sigil. It could have been a great game
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
So in diplomacy you cannot loose because you can try again while in other games in everything you do and loose (ie battle , quest, kill named etc) you dont get another chance? You playing a permadeath game or something?
Seriously now, I begun reading this thread to get a feel of what people dont really like about this game , which i enjoy. Some of the things they post though make me wonder if they just having fun here posting idiotic comments or they really believe what they are writting. Which would be sad
To the original poster. I think the game is not for you Judging from you thinking that the community is made up of kids and asses. This is an online game, if the community doesnt suit you it doesnt matter how good or bad the game is , or how polished or buggy, it will never be for you. The same way that a buggy game can be really enjoyble with the right company to be fustrated with.
Everything else you write about just proves to me that this was definetely a wrong choice of a game for you. Some minor points to what you said so something good can be learned from your exp.
1. You are one unlucky man. I only have died twice from bugs. 1 from a adding the whole building where sakuraba spawns in blighted lands. Another lagging after changing chunks and mobs catching up with me.
2. Yap its a grind , especially if you dont like and do quests. It will take you more time to level in Vanguard, that means you need to kill more monsters , do more quests , explore and find more dungeons, and quest outposts etc. Thats part of its appeal. There is a huge variety of items, with different stats , and different graphics that you see on your avatar when eqquiped. You get more slots to sell things when you buy a house or buy a broker for your items. Sad you played the game so long and noone told you about it .
3. Have you tried buying a horse, and equiping it with the horshoes needed to increase its speed? (Of course that would contradict with items beeing worthless). Trainers can be found in cities, and EVERY quest outpost. Look around for a while ingame, you will find buildings, temples, military outposts where you get quests for the area you are currently. Sometimes they are near the ressurection point for that area. Again sad that noone told you about it in game and they let you call all the way back to your starting area, and then run all the way back to where you were questing. I am beggining to understand why you hated the community.
4. My bard has his buffs, his melee attacks , his melee defensives that can lead to powerfull attacks, his reactives, his magic attacks, his songbook where he mix and matches some of the 14-15 different effects (so far) to make songs that can be used depending on the situation ( for example i have a speed buff song, a melee dps song, a defensive song, a song that gives some dps and defense, a song for arcane defense, health regen song for after a fight etc etc). A pain to choose what to cast and when, and also a pain to choose whether to use a musical intrument , sacrificing my melee dps but making my songs 3 or 4 times better . My exp as you see its not very similar to your own.
5. Slower than some games, faster than others.
6. You are very justified to hate the community after everything they have done to you.
7. Here I agree with you, the game so far is way easy (for my taste). I hope it has more to do with classes being overpowered at start while they try to balance them. (Judging from dreaded LU13 in EQ2 its preferable to be overpowered and being nerfed , when in balance proccess, than underpowered and getting your ass handed to you from every single mob in the game).
As for not so many people being around, I have to agree. Havent seen too many 20+ chars yet. I mean 24 levels , on this game in less than 3 weeks is kind of a lot if you ask me.
Again I am not saying people have to love or like this game. Just sharing some info from my perspective. Be nice and always bring an umbrella whne traveling to Tanvu.
Anyone who uses the word "Vanboi" or "Vanboy" is in my opinion a namecalling little kid, unless you are joking.
Sensitive much? It's a convenient term, since it's faster than typing out "Vanguard fanboy" every time.
That some people around here can't handle the word isn't my problem. I use it because I can, and because it saves time when I'm typing.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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