That's exactly the kind of innovation that the MMO designers are missing today. Why not let players build their own dungeons? Why not indeed? Say there's a spell that lets them construct something from a map, a lot of gold and the building components and they spend a long time designing the dungeon on a rhudementary map designing system. Put the content design tools in the hands of the players. Obviously there would need to be strict controls on how these things would be used but there is no reason someone can't be allowed to design his own house and plonk it in the middle of nowhere, put some magic locks on the doors and keep his stuff in a chest in there. And there's no reason someone can't come along, manage to break the locks and steal his loot if it's not well protected enough.
The possibilities are endless and yet MMO designers pick the same tired crap every single time they make a game.
While agree with you, the problem is that MMO designers do not want to take the risk of having players taking the game off in some unanticipated direction. Lessons learned in the genre's infancy still influence today's designs. Ultima Online provided a tremendous amount of freedom, including non-consentual PvP, to the players and what initially happened was chronic player killing. Complaints went through the roof. Around the same time Everquest was released, it had consentual PvP and its subscription numbers quickly surpassed UO. The industry seemed to interpret this as 'too much freedom will be bad for business.' So to this day we have these MMO designs with barriers that carefully guide players through the game. The advantage is that designers maintain complete control over the player experience. The disadvantage is that the designers are then responsible for providing the vast majority of 'content.' This is very demanding on studio resources; it is no wonder that they then resort to stretching out the Grind as much as is tolerable considering the rate that the average gamer blows through content.
Unfortunately as long as the companies are making decent profits (can you say WoW?) they will probably have little inclination to change their game models. Voting with your dollar and continuing to speak up on official and fan sites (in a constructive manner) are probably our best avenues to get the industry to start to innovate again. Ditch the EQ clones and support the niche titles, bugs and all ...
Grinding is a pejorative term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay (more often than not, battles in RPGs) in order to gain access to other features within the game. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. Grinding can also appear in other games in which features can be unlocked.
Synonyms for grinding include farming, treadmilling and pushing the bar (a reference to Skinner boxes in which animals, having learned that pushing a bar will sometimes produce a treat, will devote time to pushing the bar over and over again).
Grinding is a pejorative term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay (more often than not, battles in RPGs) in order to gain access to other features within the game. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. Grinding can also appear in other games in which features can be unlocked. Synonyms for grinding include farming, treadmilling and pushing the bar (a reference to Skinner boxes in which animals, having learned that pushing a bar will sometimes produce a treat, will devote time to pushing the bar over and over again).
I think sometimes when games are referred to as a "grindfest", it actually says more about the imagination of the player using the term. Although, if the game is set up so that the major content is only available at high levels, I guess "grindfest" is a reasonable description.
Sometimes it can be easy to forget that the journey can be the fun part of the game, so long as there's content for all levels. Ideally a game should be fun and provide challenges at whatever level your character is, so really if you make it your goal to get as high as possible, as quickly as possible, it's your own lookout if the game for you becomes a grind.
The company that make The Saga of Ryzom are exactly the problem with MMOs today. From what I can gather from the forums, they sold out to another company, who decided to radically change the game to make more money and are in the process of turning it into a WoW clone. This has started with the cancelling of the storyline arcs as they are currently (no more storyline development), the ending of their events team and the cancelling of their contracted customer service department. The Saga is over.
Insert signature that doesn't break the rules here
The company that make The Saga of Ryzom are exactly the problem with MMOs today. From what I can gather from the forums, they sold out to another company, who decided to radically change the game to make more money and are in the process of turning it into a WoW clone. This has started with the cancelling of the storyline arcs as they are currently (no more storyline development), the ending of their events team and the cancelling of their contracted customer service department. The Saga is over.They're certainly not doing any kind of WoW clone. Yes, they're trying to make money from the game, and in changing for less expensive servers, they also had to give up the contract with the CSRs and events team. The old development team are all still on board though.
Grinding is a state of mind. Whenever you are doing something and it gets boring it is grinding. When you do that same activity and you are having fun, the time flies by and you don't consider it grinding despite the fact that you did the same thing.
It can never be gotten rid of because what one views as boring another views as fine. The only thing that can be done is to target a certain playstyle to a particular audience.
Hmm I think that may be my new sig. Grinding does not really exist, it is a state of mind.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
There is another term that can be used for the same thing, camping.
Usually camping is sitting somewere waiting for, or making a specific mob or boss or whatever spawn so you can kill and loot it.
However, I use camping in another manner as well, I am camping when I am "grinding", but enjoying myself.
I suppose that leaves me out of a word for what camping is in terms of a specific goal other then to gain XP, but hey.
I have had some great camps, in Anarchy Online we once camped a spot for 27 hours, we were 3 people who started and we were all there when we passed out, god knows how many other persons went trough that camp with us that day and nigth, but the task was easy enough and did not really take any brains, so there was ample time to converse.
I am still in contact with both of them and I consider them friends.
Just a sidenote.
Wish I had the stamina to play, let alone stay awake for 27 hours these days, hehe..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally think you cant really escape from the "Grind" from any kind of MMORPG as its part of this kind of game although I do think developers should look at more ways to gives players more freedom or variety in their games ie a Good Combat System, player based ecomey, In depth crafting system, Good Social Systems ie player citys, player bountys shops etc, a nice selection of PVE quests with a good solid storyline to lose your self in.. the only down side to giving us all this good stuff is time and cash
Lot's of interesting responses. I'm glad to see a thread on mmorpg not turn into an adolescent shouting match for once.
Reading through the posts, I see 3 factors repeating themselves:
1. Static mobs and npcs vs. dynamic
2. Short order quests vs. epic quests
3. fun grind vs. non-fun grind
1. Static vs. dynamic
The only way to do this is by having a total pvp world. When you have static mobs/npc's you run into limits of what AI can do. You can make the AI respond quicker, slower, have some npcs with more power sets, throw in some randomizing equation every once in awhile, but the fact is that static mobs simply can only do what you program them to do. They will never be truly dynamic until AI can incorporate emotion, and when computer mobs can think and feel...we're all in trouble.
2. Short order quests vs. epic quests
It seems many want more epic quests, unique character lines, etc. Unfortunately it doesn't really address the mechanics of quest grinding. Even if you have an epic line there will still be a certain number of monsters to kill, a certain number of npcs, a certain number of things to collect. You will still have a journal that says 'collected 8/10 coconuts' or whatever, no matter how long the quest line is, no matter how hard it is to figure out and no matter how big the reward/xp is at the end. For a computer game to work, we have to translate everything to numbers, so:
"Our hero delved into the darkness and was immediately surprised by an uncountable horde of goblins descending upon him, but with the magic surrounding the Blade of Utter Destruction, his victory was assured".
This translates to a quest journal:
- Find tomb
- Kill 100 goblins (0/100)
It lacks the pizazz of the sentence, but that's the difference between PnP rpg and MMOrpg.
So for this I say, perhaps what we need is more engaging storylines, perhaps written by a professional writing staff. We are so bored with computer programers lack of creative writing skills, we never read the text of our quests anymore and thus only pay attention to the numbers. How many times have you asked, "How many goblins do I have to kill for this quest again?" Never reading the text leading up tot he 'accept' button. When instead, you should be asking, "I hope I can survive this treacherous cavern". The second sentence would be someone involved in the story rather than someone grinding out the quest.
So believe it or not, I say, it isn't a problem of short order quests vs. epic quests, it is an issue of poor writing. Amazingly, this is a solution to number 3 as well. Making the grind fun so that you aren't paying attention to the quest update numbers, but instead are immersed in the story you are creating for yourself.
Comments
Unfortunately as long as the companies are making decent profits (can you say WoW?) they will probably have little inclination to change their game models. Voting with your dollar and continuing to speak up on official and fan sites (in a constructive manner) are probably our best avenues to get the industry to start to innovate again. Ditch the EQ clones and support the niche titles, bugs and all
Someone has not only thought of this idea for mmorpgs, but actually implemented it: http://www.ryzom.com/ryzom-ring/
Grinding is a pejorative term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay (more often than not, battles in RPGs) in order to gain access to other features within the game. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. Grinding can also appear in other games in which features can be unlocked.
Synonyms for grinding include farming, treadmilling and pushing the bar (a reference to Skinner boxes in which animals, having learned that pushing a bar will sometimes produce a treat, will devote time to pushing the bar over and over again).
playing eq2 and two worlds
QFT
Great summary.
I think sometimes when games are referred to as a "grindfest", it actually says more about the imagination of the player using the term. Although, if the game is set up so that the major content is only available at high levels, I guess "grindfest" is a reasonable description.
Sometimes it can be easy to forget that the journey can be the fun part of the game, so long as there's content for all levels. Ideally a game should be fun and provide challenges at whatever level your character is, so really if you make it your goal to get as high as possible, as quickly as possible, it's your own lookout if the game for you becomes a grind.
Insert signature that doesn't break the rules here
Grinding = time sink
Grinding = boring
Grinding = Company makes lot's of money (if game is popular).
Grinding is a state of mind. Whenever you are doing something and it gets boring it is grinding. When you do that same activity and you are having fun, the time flies by and you don't consider it grinding despite the fact that you did the same thing.
It can never be gotten rid of because what one views as boring another views as fine. The only thing that can be done is to target a certain playstyle to a particular audience.
Hmm I think that may be my new sig. Grinding does not really exist, it is a state of mind.
Venge Sunsoar
There is another term that can be used for the same thing, camping.
Usually camping is sitting somewere waiting for, or making a specific mob or boss or whatever spawn so you can kill and loot it.
However, I use camping in another manner as well, I am camping when I am "grinding", but enjoying myself.
I suppose that leaves me out of a word for what camping is in terms of a specific goal other then to gain XP, but hey.
I have had some great camps, in Anarchy Online we once camped a spot for 27 hours, we were 3 people who started and we were all there when we passed out, god knows how many other persons went trough that camp with us that day and nigth, but the task was easy enough and did not really take any brains, so there was ample time to converse.
I am still in contact with both of them and I consider them friends.
Just a sidenote.
Wish I had the stamina to play, let alone stay awake for 27 hours these days, hehe..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally think you cant really escape from the "Grind" from any kind of MMORPG as its part of this kind of game although I do think developers should look at more ways to gives players more freedom or variety in their games ie a Good Combat System, player based ecomey, In depth crafting system, Good Social Systems ie player citys, player bountys shops etc, a nice selection of PVE quests with a good solid storyline to lose your self in.. the only down side to giving us all this good stuff is time and cash
Lot's of interesting responses. I'm glad to see a thread on mmorpg not turn into an adolescent shouting match for once.
Reading through the posts, I see 3 factors repeating themselves:
1. Static mobs and npcs vs. dynamic
2. Short order quests vs. epic quests
3. fun grind vs. non-fun grind
1. Static vs. dynamic
The only way to do this is by having a total pvp world. When you have static mobs/npc's you run into limits of what AI can do. You can make the AI respond quicker, slower, have some npcs with more power sets, throw in some randomizing equation every once in awhile, but the fact is that static mobs simply can only do what you program them to do. They will never be truly dynamic until AI can incorporate emotion, and when computer mobs can think and feel...we're all in trouble.
2. Short order quests vs. epic quests
It seems many want more epic quests, unique character lines, etc. Unfortunately it doesn't really address the mechanics of quest grinding. Even if you have an epic line there will still be a certain number of monsters to kill, a certain number of npcs, a certain number of things to collect. You will still have a journal that says 'collected 8/10 coconuts' or whatever, no matter how long the quest line is, no matter how hard it is to figure out and no matter how big the reward/xp is at the end. For a computer game to work, we have to translate everything to numbers, so:
"Our hero delved into the darkness and was immediately surprised by an uncountable horde of goblins descending upon him, but with the magic surrounding the Blade of Utter Destruction, his victory was assured".
This translates to a quest journal:
- Find tomb
- Kill 100 goblins (0/100)
It lacks the pizazz of the sentence, but that's the difference between PnP rpg and MMOrpg.
So for this I say, perhaps what we need is more engaging storylines, perhaps written by a professional writing staff. We are so bored with computer programers lack of creative writing skills, we never read the text of our quests anymore and thus only pay attention to the numbers. How many times have you asked, "How many goblins do I have to kill for this quest again?" Never reading the text leading up tot he 'accept' button. When instead, you should be asking, "I hope I can survive this treacherous cavern". The second sentence would be someone involved in the story rather than someone grinding out the quest.
So believe it or not, I say, it isn't a problem of short order quests vs. epic quests, it is an issue of poor writing. Amazingly, this is a solution to number 3 as well. Making the grind fun so that you aren't paying attention to the quest update numbers, but instead are immersed in the story you are creating for yourself.